Barrel chhoice.

[Maggot]

This is a follow up to my question in ELR.

I was wanting to go to a mile, asking about a 6.5 Creedmoor (Remy/Magpusl 20" which shoots nicely for the price), and was recommended a 300 PRC, Looked into it , seems like a good rec. but after a lot of thought decided because of a shoulder that will likely need surgery (replacement) I dont want to go up in caliber/recoil.

Next thought is maximize what I have and enjoy it, maybe get close to a mile.. I have a sweet, low round, Remington 700 Stainless 5R in 308, one of the old ones with a jeweled bolt. . Its heavy but solid as a rock. I think a barrel switch to a 26" / 6.5, and getting it all tightened up and checked over would be easy and do several things.

1-Lower the recoil as the rifle would be heavier.
2-Improve the accuracy over the shorter rifle.
3-Save me a bunch of bucks over buying a 'custom build.'

Which barrel maker do I want. In your opinion is it worth specifying a 5R barrel? Twist rate? Other things to consider?

Be specific, I've not built anything before and want t get it right the first time. I woulldnt object to sending the whole rifle to a good barrel co and just let them do it.

 

[Maggot]

Found this.

Best Rifle Barrel - What The Pros Use - PrecisionRifleBlog. ...​

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...le-barrel-2/&usg=AOvVaw3tIsek8miEhLE9AyBh8n5a
Precision Rifle Blog

 

[PusherX11]

I’m in the same boat. I have a defiance xm action just sitting, and am wanting to get that mile. If you want to stay 6.5, I feel 6.5 PRC with a 26” barrel is your best bet. Myself I’m looking at either a 7mm SAUM, or 7mm WSM. The 180 eld m at 2900 fps is still supersonic at 1780 where I’m at. I’m probably going to order one of @Frank Green carbon wrapped 7mm M24/M40 barrels from Bartlin and have Mile High Shooting spin it up for me. I’m fortunate that I live right down the road from them.

 

[GIXXER2000]

As you said with the potential shoulder issue you can split hairs and go 6.5 PRC. It can shoot the heavier 153.5 grain bullets at a good AVG FPS and with have less recoil then a 300 PRC. The one thing you will need is a good muzzle break to reduce felt recoil. After trying several different ones I prefer GEN 3 LITTLE BASTARD SELF TIMING MUZZLE BRAKE. It does a great job handling recoil.
Now for barrels
I have shot Bartlein, Krieger, Schneider and K&P and all shoot very good. I would not be afraid to try Hawk Hill, Brux or Rock Creek either. You can find barrels at Bug holes that are in stock. As for contour I like the Heavy Palma or Heavy Varmint something that is at least .900 at the muzzle end. If it were me I would go with a 6.5 PRC 1-7.5 twist 29-31 inch blank that would finish at 28-29 inches. As for the 5R or not I have done just fine with 4 groove Krieger barrels. When it comes to barrel finish I am liking bead blasted over coated barrels these days.
Just my thought's hope this give you thing to think about.

 

[Maggot]

As you said with the potential shoulder issue you can split hairs and go 6.5 PRC. It can shoot the heavier 153.5 grain bullets at a good AVG FPS and with have less recoil then a 300 PRC. The one thing you will need is a good muzzle break to reduce felt recoil. After trying several different ones I prefer GEN 3 LITTLE BASTARD SELF TIMING MUZZLE BRAKE. It does a great job handling recoil.
Now for barrels
I have shot Bartlein, Krieger, Schneider and K&P and all shoot very good. I would not be afraid to try Hawk Hill, Brux or Rock Creek either. You can find barrels at Bug holes that are in stock. As for contour I like the Heavy Palma or Heavy Varmint something that is at least .900 at the muzzle end. If it were me I would go with a 6.5 PRC 1-7.5 twist 29-31 inch blank that would finish at 28-29 inches. As for the 5R or not I have done just fine with 4 groove Krieger barrels. When it comes to barrel finish I am liking bead blasted over coated barrels these days.
Just my thought's hope this give you thing to think about.

Just what I was hoping for, thanks so much. Ill look at the 6.5 PRC. I like the bead blast as well, kind of dull but efficient, matches my existing action.

One question, will the 6.5 PRC work with my existing short/ 308 action?

 

[Rocketmandb]

1-Lower the recoil as the rifle would be heavier.

It would do that - combined with a good brake, there will be minimal recoil.

2-Improve the accuracy over the shorter rifle.

It will improve the effective range by upping muzzle velocity. That will also improve wind performance. Accuracy depends on a number of factors, and a longer barrel length in itself isn't necessarily one of them.

As for a barrel, I'm a Bartlein fan. There are other good barrel manufacturers, but the Bartlein 400MODBB material barrels will get you longer barrel life.

As for shooting close to a mile, and I think we've mentioned this on another thread recently, a 6.5 CM can do it - hell, my 6 BRA can do it too - but your success is heavily dependent on where you're going to be shooting and the conditions of the day. Spotting misses is key, and at a mile, the 6.5 CM is far from ideal in this regard. Just like my 300 PRC can shoot to 2400 yards, but I'm just lobbing lead and copper at that point and hoping for the best.

I can't remember if you said you reload. If you do, something like a 260 AI would get you more umph if your primary goal is to stretch things out. Throat it for the Berger 156 and you're closer to having that mile rifle. Also, if you're not going to use this for anything other than target shooting, consider going to a 28" - maybe even slightly longer - barrel. A 260 AI with a 28" barrel should be able to get you north of 2900 fps with the 156 - that would be a really nice setup.

 

[Ichi]

Just what I was hoping for, thanks so much. Ill look at the 6.5 PRC. I like the bead blast as well, kind of dull but efficient, matches my existing action.

One question, will the 6.5 PRC work with my existing short/ 308 action?

Yes, the 6.5 PRC is a short action cartridge. But you might run into COL issues with some magazines.

 

[FredHammer]

I shoot a mile range frequently. 300WM Savage Elite Precision. MDT chassis I weighted to about 27-30lbs. It's purely for ELR. With a brake it feels like a .308. I'm sending 208Amax-ELDM 3060fps. No problems hearing or seeing the impact. One guy shoots a 6GT and a 6.5PRC. Have a hard time with both impact indicators and we don't start looking close unless we see the yellow light hit indicator go off. I wouldn't shy from the 300PRC if you set it up right it won't hurt you.

Sticking with what you have, a 7SAUM could work too.

 

[acudaowner]

buying a good one makes a huge difference ( pricing and buy the best you can afford ).

 

[Maggot]

buying a good one makes a huge difference ( pricing and buy the best you can afford ).

Yep, as I said over in the Pit, buying the cheapest is usually the most expensive.

 

[Maggot]

I shoot a mile range frequently. 300WM Savage Elite Precision. MDT chassis I weighted to about 27-30lbs. It's purely for ELR. With a brake it feels like a .308. I'm sending 208Amax-ELDM 3060fps. No problems hearing or seeing the impact. One guy shoots a 6GT and a 6.5PRC. Have a hard time with both impact indicators and we don't start looking close unless we see the yellow light hit indicator go off. I wouldn't shy from the 300PRC if you set it up right it won't hurt you.

Sticking with what you have, a 7SAUM could work too.

I dont want to do just BR, so I want a rifle I can do a certain amount of packing without killing myself. Something kind of all round and most important, fun.

 

[FredHammer]

I dont want to do just BR, so I want a rifle I can do a certain amount of packing without killing myself. Something kind of all round and most important, fun.

Roger, 7SAUM. Or 7 SAUM(ish)

 

[Maggot]

It would do that - combined with a good brake, there will be minimal recoil.



It will improve the effective range by upping muzzle velocity. That will also improve wind performance. Accuracy depends on a number of factors, and a longer barrel length in itself isn't necessarily one of them.

As for a barrel, I'm a Bartlein fan. There are other good barrel manufacturers, but the Bartlein 400MODBB material barrels will get you longer barrel life.

As for shooting close to a mile, and I think we've mentioned this on another thread recently, a 6.5 CM can do it - hell, my 6 BRA can do it too - but your success is heavily dependent on where you're going to be shooting and the conditions of the day. Spotting misses is key, and at a mile, the 6.5 CM is far from ideal in this regard. Just like my 300 PRC can shoot to 2400 yards, but I'm just lobbing lead and copper at that point and hoping for the best.

I can't remember if you said you reload. If you do, something like a 260 AI would get you more umph if your primary goal is to stretch things out. Throat it for the Berger 156 and you're closer to having that mile rifle. Also, if you're not going to use this for anything other than target shooting, consider going to a 28" - maybe even slightly longer - barrel. A 260 AI with a 28" barrel should be able to get you north of 2900 fps with the 156 - that would be a really nice setup.

Thanks. I dodnt reload.

I want to keep it a fun simple hobby. I admire y'all who go in deep end, but I got into it too late to get that deep.

From the posts above, right now, Im looking at a 6.5 PRC Bartlein 26" stainless, with the Vais muzzle brake, (they look really nice)) maybe 5R. Send it to them, get them to do all the work and true everything. Nothing overboard, but maxing what I've got and the ammo is only a bit more than 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[Maggot]

Roger, 7SAUM. Or 7 SAUM(ish)

At $6 p/bang Ill have to pass.

 

[FredHammer]

At $6 p/bang Ill have to pass.

Yeah, I just saw you didn't reload.

 

[diggdugg]

This is a follow up to my question in ELR.

I was wanting to go to a mile, asking about a 6.5 Creedmoor (Remy/Magpusl 20" which shoots nicely for the price), and was recommended a 300 PRC, Looked into it , seems like a good rec. but after a lot of thought decided because of a shoulder that will likely need surgery (replacement) I dont want to go up in caliber/recoil.

Next thought is maximize what I have and enjoy it, maybe get close to a mile.. I have a sweet, low round, Remington 700 Stainless 5R in 308, one of the old ones with a jeweled bolt. . Its heavy but solid as a rock. I think a barrel switch to a 26" / 6.5, and getting it all tightened up and checked over would be easy and do several things.

1-Lower the recoil as the rifle would be heavier.
2-Improve the accuracy over the shorter rifle.
3-Save me a bunch of bucks over buying a 'custom build.'

Which barrel maker do I want. In your opinion is it worth specifying a 5R barrel? Twist rate? Other things to consider?

Be specific, I've not built anything before and want t get it right the first time. I woulldnt object to sending the whole rifle to a good barrel co and just let them do it.

Look and Benchmark barrels, they will custom make you a barrel with any twist and Grove count. They built me a CF sendero contour in .284 1:7.5t standard 5g, SS Rem Mag contour .264 7:5t 5g. I've also used Lilja, Brux and Hart. If you're not set on factory ammo the look into the Sherman line of wild cats, I'd look into the 7sst deadly accurate and low recoil.

 

[Maggot]

Look and Benchmark barrels, they will custom make you a barrel with any twist and Grove count. They built me a CF sendero contour in .284 1:7.5t standard 5g, SS Rem Mag contour .264 7:5t 5g. I've also used Lilja, Brux and Hart. I

f you're not set on factory ammo the look into the Sherman line of wild cats, I'd look into the 7sst deadly accurate and low recoil.

I'm not a millionaire lie TheGerman, I'm afraid to even look.

 

[FredHammer]

Look and Benchmark barrels, they will custom make you a barrel with any twist and Grove count. They built me a CF sendero contour in .284 1:7.5t standard 5g, SS Rem Mag contour .264 7:5t 5g. I've also used Lilja, Brux and Hart. If you're not set on factory ammo the look into the Sherman line of wild cats, I'd look into the 7sst deadly accurate and low recoil.

What is the wait on something like that? I just got two blanks in stock, or an ordered SS blank was going to be a year.

 

[kthomas]

Yes, the 6.5 PRC is a short action cartridge. But you might run into COL issues with some magazines.

Will require a new bolt though, as the PRC has a different (bigger) bolt face than .308/6.5 Creedmoor.

At that point may as well just a new action rather than pumping more money into a R700.

That said, a 6.5 Creedmoor does just fine ballistically to a mile and a little beyond. Spotting is more difficult than larger cartridges/projectiles and wind can make it a bit sporty at times, but it's more than a capable cartridge for that distance.

 

[Maggot]

Will require a new bolt though, as the PRC has a different (bigger) bolt face than .308/6.5 Creedmoor.

At that point may as well just a new action rather than pumping more money into a R700.

That said, a 6.5 Creedmoor does just fine ballistically to a mile and a little beyond. Spotting is more difficult than larger cartridges/projectiles and wind can make it a bit sporty at times, but it's more than a capable cartridge for that distance.

Thanks for that.

So many choices.

God Bless America.

 

[kthomas]

If the goal is long range, I would consider a 28" barrel. Personally I like 24" in a 6.5 Creedmoor, but I'm rarely shooting past a 1,000 yards with it these days.

Blank should be in a heavier contour to help with recoil since that's an objective. I really prefer heavy varmint, but contour is a personal preference.

Get a 1:8 twist quality cut rifled barrel. I wouldn't worry at all if it's 5R or 4 groove, IMO doesn't make a difference. Krieger, Bartlein, Hawkhill or Brux are excellent choices.

Bugholes has a good selection of 6.5mm blanks right now. Buy one and drop ship it to your gunsmith of choice for chambering.

 

[FredHammer]

Blank should be in a heavier contour to help with recoil since that's an objective. I really prefer heavy varmint, but contour is a personal preference.

and HEAT!

 

[kthomas]

and HEAT!

Its a double edged sword with heat.

Takes longer to heat up but also takes longer to cool down.

But if your smart about heat management, I agree that a heavier contour is more beneficial for heat management. Pretty annoying to deal with a thinner barrel heating up on longer strings of fire.

 

[FredHammer]

Its a double edged sword with heat.

Takes longer to heat up but also takes longer to cool down.

But if your smart about heat management, I agree that a heavier contour is more beneficial for heat management. Pretty annoying to deal with a thinner barrel heating up on longer strings of fire.

If you can keep it at a point where you can grab it without pain. That's the ticket!

 

[kthomas]

If you can keep it at a point where you can grab it without pain. That's the ticket!

Not very scientific or data driven but that's the rule of thumb I tend to follow as well.

 

[diggdugg]

What is the wait on something like that? I just got two blanks in stock, or an ordered SS blank was going to be a year.

My firstb2 from them was about 6m, my 3rd was a cf .284 1:8t sendero at it took a yr. But thats pretty much any length for a custom now I'm guessing, I've heard Bartlein is 1.5yrs.

 

[diggdugg]

I'm not a millionaire lie TheGerman, I'm afraid to even look.

Its not that much more than factory. Rich uses ADG to make his brass, Hornady does his dies, and another company does custom resizing die that has a nitrite coating.

 

[The D]

Thanks. I dodnt reload.

I want to keep it a fun simple hobby. I admire y'all who go in deep end, but I got into it too late to get that deep.

From the posts above, right now, Im looking at a 6.5 PRC Bartlein 26" stainless, with the Vais muzzle brake, (they look really nice)) maybe 5R. Send it to them, get them to do all the work and true everything. Nothing overboard, but maxing what I've got and the ammo is only a bit more than 6.5 Creedmoor.

Keeping it simple:

1) buy 6.5 prc rifle and shoot the best ammo you can find. Probably the absolute easiest

2) re-barrel your .308 to something like 280 ai and buy some custom, boutique ammo or give Nosler’s factory options a try(for 280ai specifically). This way you would be saving the cost difference between just a barrel vs a whole new rifle. This makes it a little easier swallowing the ammo cost pill

 

[Rocketmandb]

Thanks. I dodnt reload.

I want to keep it a fun simple hobby.

I actually find reloading to be highly enjoyable - within limits, of course.

I admire y'all who go in deep end, but I got into it too late to get that deep.

It's never too late Honestly, you have to pay attention and get the critical things right, but basic reloading is not difficult.

From the posts above, right now, Im looking at a 6.5 PRC Bartlein 26" stainless, with the Vais muzzle brake, (they look really nice)) maybe 5R. Send it to them, get them to do all the work and true everything. Nothing overboard, but maxing what I've got and the ammo is only a bit more than 6.5 Creedmoor.

Others have already said it, but I'll repeat:

The 6.5 PRC has a magnum bolt face (.532"). Your 308 has a .470" bolt face. It's not a "drop-in" type deal on the barrel. You'd need a new bolt or bolt face (if you can find one that fits).

 

[Rob01]

Thanks for that.

So many choices.

God Bless America.

Yup and if you plan to go to a magnum bolt face on that .308 and need to buy a bolt then cut your loses and sell it and buy a Bighorn Origin and a prefit barrel. To the barrel, if you want to shoot a mile then velocity is your friend and get a 28" barrel.

As said the 6.5 Creedmoor will do fine to a mile. I have shot mine there and a buddy who never shot farther than about 500 came out with me that day and hit a mile with his Bergara 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[Maggot]

Yup and if you plan to go to a magnum bolt face on that .308 and need to buy a bolt then cut your loses and sell it and buy a Bighorn Origin and a prefit barrel. To the barrel, if you want to shoot a mile then velocity is your friend and get a 28" barrel.

As said the 6.5 Creedmoor will do fine to a mile. I have shot mine there and a buddy who never shot farther than about 500 came out with me that day and hit a mile with his Bergara 6.5 Creedmoor.

Thanks, thats the current plan. Best return for investment and easier on the old shoulder.

 

[diggdugg]

Keeping it simple:

1) buy 6.5 prc rifle and shoot the best ammo you can find. Probably the absolute easiest

2) re-barrel your .308 to something like 280 ai and buy some custom, boutique ammo or give Nosler’s factory options a try(for 280ai specifically). This way you would be saving the cost difference between just a barrel vs a whole new rifle. This makes it a little easier swallowing the ammo cost pill

You can't build a 280AI on a 308win action since it's a SA.

 

[The D]

You can't build a 280AI on a 308win action since it's a SA.

Shit, you’re right. @Maggot , you can do a 280ai if you want to single feed. But you should also definitely buy a new gun

 

[kthomas]

Thanks, thats the current plan. Best return for investment and easier on the old shoulder.

I think so too.

Start with that, and if you decide you want to step into something a bit bigger than later down the road then you can always build a new rifle.

 

[Frank Green]

I’m in the same boat. I have a defiance xm action just sitting, and am wanting to get that mile. If you want to stay 6.5, I feel 6.5 PRC with a 26” barrel is your best bet. Myself I’m looking at either a 7mm SAUM, or 7mm WSM. The 180 eld m at 2900 fps is still supersonic at 1780 where I’m at. I’m probably going to order one of @Frank Green carbon wrapped 7mm M24/M40 barrels from Bartlin and have Mile High Shooting spin it up for me. I’m fortunate that I live right down the road from them.

I'm with ya on the 7mm being a better choice for that kind of distance over the 6.5mm bullets... as much as I like 6.5's.

If you can handle the recoil a 30cal would be better yet.

Later, Frank

 

[jbailey]

Howard,
a bunch of the above posts, while good advice, will cost you a lot of money and by themselves will not get you a whole lot closer to 1 mile. A Bartlein vs a Krieger vs a Rock Creek barrel really ain't much of a factor in your current situation. 6.5 PRC vs 7 SAUM vs 300 Win Mag vs 25x137mm aint' going to make huge different (ok, maybe Bushmaster chain gun would make difference )

INSTEAD, you need to get your marksmanship and ballistic basics down before investing money into new gear. This means you are out hitting targets at 500 to 1000 yds in variety of wind conditions. This means solving for the ballistics to get you there. This means understanding the environment, wind speed clues, spotting misses and impacts. You can do all this with your current setup.

If you were back here in VA, we could work on this, but you are now in OK. I would recommend you get a buddy there who knows LR and ELR shooting really well. Shoot his gun(s). Ask a ton of question. Send time just spotting hits and misses, calling corrections, working with Kestrel wind/weather stations. Figure out sources of affordable and quality ammunition (maybe more important than barrel choice); once this ammunition has been identified - shoot it a lot and don't change the variables much. You can email/text me on ballistics solutions and I can help you there.

If this is a one time thing, next time you are in VA, we will go out to a 2500 yd lane I have access to, and we will get you your mile shoot and further and save you a lot of $s.

 

[xsn10s]

I'm with ya on the 7mm being a better choice for that kind of distance over the 6.5mm bullets... as much as I like 6.5's.

If you can handle the recoil a 30cal would be better yet.

Later, Frank

I have to agree with Frank. I have a 260 AI which I've taken to a mile. I've done it with my handloads using a 145 Barnes Match Burner, it's a relatively cost effect load. But since you don't reload I'd say give it a go with your 6.5 CM. People have done it. And if you want more then go with a 7mm of some variety. A 7-08 in a long action would work. Or a 284 Win. 7 PRC might be great but the ammo is non existent and costly. I got a 7mm RemArms on order with 1-8" barrel right from the factory. It would be easier if you reloaded. If you ever change your mind on reloading I or others would offer tips towards reloading.

 

[xsn10s]

If you want to use your existing action and stay with a 6.5 CM then I'd get at least a 26" barrel 1-8" twist with 5R or more grooves. the reason being 3-4 groove barrels have deeper lands and grooves so this might be the reason why some bullets like the ELDM have exploded in mid air. Shouldn't be a problem with a 6.5 Creedmoor but since you'd get a new barrel it's easy to avoid it. Any of the better barrels would do, Bartlein, Brux ete. My barrel is a Rock Creek 5R but I'd even use a Criterion prefit. whatever the wallet can afford.

 

[Frank Green]

the reason being 3-4 groove barrels have deeper lands and grooves d.

Then the barrels are not made to min spec tolerances. Whose spec's are you going off of?

The problem with 3 groove barrels is typically the lands are really wide. So a portion of one land still opposes another land in the ones I've seen in the past. So even though the 3 groove is a odd groove number barrel....So you don't get the benefit of a 5R/5 groove barrel as the lands in these barrels don't directly oppose one another.

This is also the very reason I don't like tight bore barrels (yes I use to shoot them back when I was at Krieger but I've learned my lessons over the years). A tighter bore barrel....the rifling is going to cut deeper into the bullet jacket and or cause more of a stress point on the jacket. Your asking for problem in regards to bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem in 6.5mm and smaller calibers.

A tight bore barrel doesn't guarantee you better accuracy either and again in terms of bullet failure...your just asking for problems with a tight bore barrel.

If a customer insists on a tight bore barrel from us we will make it but if he says he wants a 4 groove then I really insist on going with 5R rifling to help combat the bullet failure issue that could possibly happen.

Also as the barrel wears and the throat starts getting rougher...it's going to beat the bullet up more.

Twist rates are a cause of bullet failures...

Velocity is a cause....

Cleaning damage....

Yes bullets can be a issue....

Also any of these combinations together could be causing a bullet failure problem but it might not have anything to do with the bullet themselves.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Jumper]

You could also go 7-08AI. It would get you into a 7mm bullet and keep it short action.
Nevermind. I forget you dont handload.
6.5PRC would be my next choice given your factors.

 

[Taylorbok]

How reliably do you want to be able to hit at a mile? If it's just once in a while for fun and you don't care if it takes you several attempts to get on plate and likely under 50% hit ratio then you could stick with 6.5 or 7.
If you want to hit reliably 300 PRC or 30 Sherman Mag, 300 Norma Mag. which you are going to have to buy a new rifle. Being stuck with factory ammo is also a hold up.

 

[xsn10s]

Then the barrels are not made to min spec tolerances. Whose spec's are you going off of?

The problem with 3 groove barrels is typically the lands are really wide. So a portion of one land still opposes another land in the ones I've seen in the past. So even though the 3 groove is a odd groove number barrel....So you don't get the benefit of a 5R/5 groove barrel as the lands in these barrels don't directly oppose one another.

This is also the very reason I don't like tight bore barrels (yes I use to shoot them back when I was at Krieger but I've learned my lessons over the years). A tighter bore barrel....the rifling is going to cut deeper into the bullet jacket and or cause more of a stress point on the jacket. Your asking for problem in regards to bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem in 6.5mm and smaller calibers.

A tight bore barrel doesn't guarantee you better accuracy either and again in terms of bullet failure...your just asking for problems with a tight bore barrel.

If a customer insists on a tight bore barrel from us we will make it but if he says he wants a 4 groove then I really insist on going with 5R rifling to help combat the bullet failure issue that could possibly happen.

Also as the barrel wears and the throat starts getting rougher...it's going to beat the bullet up more.

Twist rates are a cause of bullet failures...

Velocity is a cause....

Cleaning damage....

Yes bullets can be a issue....

Also any of these combinations together could be causing a bullet failure problem but it might not have anything to do with the bullet themselves.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I was going off what Broz said in one post. If I misquoted him or misunderstood then that's okay I don't mind I'll take your word on it Frank. I could see that a tighter bore that makes sense. As with a rough throat. I've seen pressure changes and spikes while using Oehler Ballistics lab on rough throats.

 

[kthomas]

How reliably do you want to be able to hit at a mile? If it's just once in a while for fun and you don't care if it takes you several attempts to get on plate and likely under 50% hit ratio then you could stick with 6.5 or 7.
If you want to hit reliably 300 PRC or 30 Sherman Mag, 300 Norma Mag. which you are going to have to buy a new rifle. Being stuck with factory ammo is also a hold up.

Yes, the larger calibers are more efficient for longer range stuff, but there's a step up in recoil as you go up in bore size. I don't know how recoil sensitive the OP is given his situation.

If the goal is to have fun and score some hits, a 6.5mm will do that just fine. If you want the most optimal performance for that distance, then a .30 or .33 cal would be a good pick. Settling somewhere in between would be an effective 7mm on a medium or long action - something like a 7 SAUM.

The OP can also increase ballistic efficiency by utilizing solids in a 6.5mm - however this does come at the cost of more expensive projectiles, less splash signature, and the potential need for specific chambers and/or faster twists to accommodate solids. I bet Warner's 123 grain 6.5mm flatlines would work excellently to a mile.

 

[Taylorbok]

Yes, the larger calibers are more efficient for longer range stuff, but there's a step up in recoil as you go up in bore size. I don't know how recoil sensitive the OP is given his situation.

If the goal is to have fun and score some hits, a 6.5mm will do that just fine. If you want the most optimal performance for that distance, then a .30 or .33 cal would be a good pick. Settling somewhere in between would be an effective 7mm on a medium or long action - something like a 7 SAUM.

The OP can also increase ballistic efficiency by utilizing solids in a 6.5mm - however this does come at the cost of more expensive projectiles, less splash signature, and the potential need for specific chambers and/or faster twists to accommodate solids. I bet Warner's 123 grain 6.5mm flatlines would work excellently to a mile.

Most definitely but with a decent brake and fairly heavy rifle a 30 cal is very tolerable.
Those solids sacrifice splash also.

 

[FredHammer]

Then the barrels are not made to min spec tolerances. Whose spec's are you going off of?

The problem with 3 groove barrels is typically the lands are really wide. So a portion of one land still opposes another land in the ones I've seen in the past. So even though the 3 groove is a odd groove number barrel....So you don't get the benefit of a 5R/5 groove barrel as the lands in these barrels don't directly oppose one another.

This is also the very reason I don't like tight bore barrels (yes I use to shoot them back when I was at Krieger but I've learned my lessons over the years). A tighter bore barrel....the rifling is going to cut deeper into the bullet jacket and or cause more of a stress point on the jacket. Your asking for problem in regards to bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem in 6.5mm and smaller calibers.

A tight bore barrel doesn't guarantee you better accuracy either and again in terms of bullet failure...your just asking for problems with a tight bore barrel.

If a customer insists on a tight bore barrel from us we will make it but if he says he wants a 4 groove then I really insist on going with 5R rifling to help combat the bullet failure issue that could possibly happen.

Also as the barrel wears and the throat starts getting rougher...it's going to beat the bullet up more.

Twist rates are a cause of bullet failures...

Velocity is a cause....

Cleaning damage....

Yes bullets can be a issue....

Also any of these combinations together could be causing a bullet failure problem but it might not have anything to do with the bullet themselves.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I got one of your CF 22” 308 barrels. Sendero profile. Holy smokes is that thing a laser beam! No POI shift on a 10 shot string. Didn’t get very hot either. Radically changed my viewpoint on CF barrels. So are all these traits attributed to your design of carbon fiber barrels or are they all like this? Lol. Doesn’t matter you’re doing something right

 

[Frank Green]

I got one of your CF 22” 308 barrels. Sendero profile. Holy smokes is that thing a laser beam! No POI shift on a 10 shot string. Didn’t get very hot either. Radically changed my viewpoint on CF barrels. So are all these traits attributed to your design of carbon fiber barrels or are they all like this? Lol. Doesn’t matter you’re doing something right

Glad you like it.

A good barrel is a good barrel.

Also goes back to how the barrels are made. Cut rifling vs button rifling etc...the cut rifling is going to be more forgiving than a button barrel will be.

I also don't feel that CFW barrels fit all applications etc...

Later, Frank

 

[xsn10s]

Then the barrels are not made to min spec tolerances. Whose spec's are you going off of?

The problem with 3 groove barrels is typically the lands are really wide. So a portion of one land still opposes another land in the ones I've seen in the past. So even though the 3 groove is a odd groove number barrel....So you don't get the benefit of a 5R/5 groove barrel as the lands in these barrels don't directly oppose one another.

This is also the very reason I don't like tight bore barrels (yes I use to shoot them back when I was at Krieger but I've learned my lessons over the years). A tighter bore barrel....the rifling is going to cut deeper into the bullet jacket and or cause more of a stress point on the jacket. Your asking for problem in regards to bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem in 6.5mm and smaller calibers.

A tight bore barrel doesn't guarantee you better accuracy either and again in terms of bullet failure...your just asking for problems with a tight bore barrel.

If a customer insists on a tight bore barrel from us we will make it but if he says he wants a 4 groove then I really insist on going with 5R rifling to help combat the bullet failure issue that could possibly happen.

Also as the barrel wears and the throat starts getting rougher...it's going to beat the bullet up more.

Twist rates are a cause of bullet failures...

Velocity is a cause....

Cleaning damage....

Yes bullets can be a issue....

Also any of these combinations together could be causing a bullet failure problem but it might not have anything to do with the bullet themselves.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I found the thread and Broz said, just like you, the 3 groove have wider lands. He thought the 4 groove also had wider lands. So I remembered incorrectly. And in that instance we were concentrating on magnums with some eldm blow ups.

 

[Frank Green]

I found the thread and Broz said, just like you, the 3 groove have wider lands. He thought the 4 groove also had wider lands. So I remembered incorrectly. And in that instance we were concentrating on magnums with some eldm blow ups.

If it's a true..... and I will give you the specs of what a standard 4 groove type barrels are here... a standard type spec 4 groove and I'll use 30-06 for example as it is standard Saami spec. 4 groove. The grooves are .1767" wide. So that's roughly a 70 to 30 groove to land ratio. So if the lands are really wider than the grooves then whatever 4 groove barrels you or whom ever are looking are looking at are not to spec.

A 7.62 nato / 308win spec barrels are also 4 groove. The Nato is spec'd at .167" +.010" for tolerance (at high limit pretty much 30-06) and the 308win is .176" +.002" for tolerance.

So.......

I'm running a 300PRC and I've shot plenty of 225 ELDM's at 2900fps+ and haven't lost a single one. Yes my barrel is a 5R. Not a tight bore or tight groove barrel either.

 

[xsn10s]

If it's a true..... and I will give you the specs of what a standard 4 groove type barrels are here... a standard type spec 4 groove and I'll use 30-06 for example as it is standard Saami spec. 4 groove. The grooves are .1767" wide. So that's roughly a 70 to 30 groove to land ratio. So if the lands are really wider than the grooves then whatever 4 groove barrels you or whom ever are looking are looking at are not to spec.

A 7.62 nato / 308win spec barrels are also 4 groove. The Nato is spec'd at .167" +.010" for tolerance (at high limit pretty much 30-06) and the 308win is .176" +.002" for tolerance.

So.......

I'm running a 300PRC and I've shot plenty of 225 ELDM's at 2900fps+ and haven't lost a single one. Yes my barrel is a 5R. Not a tight bore or tight groove barrel either.

That's good news and good info Frank, thanks for sharing. I just ordered a RemArms 700 7mm Rem Mag which is supposed to be 1-8" tw 5R. If I can get the 180 ELDM to shoot that will be my general purpose round and a 180 Hybrid will be for elk. I would have also ordered a 223 1-8 tw 5r but unfortunely I have a budget . Someday when that barrel gets shot out I'll order a barrel from you. Thanks for all your help!

 

[Maggot]

Howard,
a bunch of the above posts, while good advice, will cost you a lot of money and by themselves will not get you a whole lot closer to 1 mile. A Bartlein vs a Krieger vs a Rock Creek barrel really ain't much of a factor in your current situation. 6.5 PRC vs 7 SAUM vs 300 Win Mag vs 25x137mm aint' going to make huge different (ok, maybe Bushmaster chain gun would make difference )

INSTEAD, you need to get your marksmanship and ballistic basics down before investing money into new gear. This means you are out hitting targets at 500 to 1000 yds in variety of wind conditions. This means solving for the ballistics to get you there. This means understanding the environment, wind speed clues, spotting misses and impacts. You can do all this with your current setup.

If you were back here in VA, we could work on this, but you are now in OK. I would recommend you get a buddy there who knows LR and ELR shooting really well. Shoot his gun(s). Ask a ton of question. Send time just spotting hits and misses, calling corrections, working with Kestrel wind/weather stations. Figure out sources of affordable and quality ammunition (maybe more important than barrel choice); once this ammunition has been identified - shoot it a lot and don't change the variables much. You can email/text me on ballistics solutions and I can help you there.

If this is a one time thing, next time you are in VA, we will go out to a 2500 yd lane I have access to, and we will get you your mile shoot and further and save you a lot of $s.

Thats excellent advice and basically what had come down to. Like guitars, you can have the sweetest 1960 Les Paul but if you cant play it....

At the same time, Im keeping my eyes open for what might be a good investment. Likely not a one time thing, I'd enjoy taking a class at the Whittington center, and maybe one with Frank. Maybe compete just for fun at Fouled Bore. It's a thought. Above, @Rob01 mentioned a Bergara. I see several versions in 6.5 CM, from 1K up to 2K. Which one did your friend use?