Ok guys. I've got another question. This one has to do with barrel length. 700 SPS. I'm looking to get into F-class shooting, to give you an idea of the distances I will be shooting. Do I go with a 20" barrl or a 26" barrel?
- Thread starter Douglasalways
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Re: Barrel Length
26" unless the F-Class in your area has you deploying out of vehicles....
26" unless the F-Class in your area has you deploying out of vehicles....
Re: Barrel Length
The reason I was asking, I've read that a lot of people saying that the 20's are stiffer than the 26's which help with accuracy. I could see this being tre up to say, 500 yards or so. But the loss of velocity out to 1200yrds is what I'm looking at.
The reason I was asking, I've read that a lot of people saying that the 20's are stiffer than the 26's which help with accuracy. I could see this being tre up to say, 500 yards or so. But the loss of velocity out to 1200yrds is what I'm looking at.
Re: Barrel Length
Why don't you visit a range during a match and see what the winners are using? At Bridgeville De it's 6 BR, 6XC, and 6X47. These are heavy 26+ inch heavy barrels.
At Quantico Modified F-Class, there are more magnums and 6.5x284s.
Good luck
Jerry
Why don't you visit a range during a match and see what the winners are using? At Bridgeville De it's 6 BR, 6XC, and 6X47. These are heavy 26+ inch heavy barrels.
At Quantico Modified F-Class, there are more magnums and 6.5x284s.
Good luck
Jerry
Re: Barrel Length
Ok, I'm not one to act like I know what your talking about when I don't have a clue. What does 6 BR, 6XC, and 6X47 mean?
Ok, I'm not one to act like I know what your talking about when I don't have a clue. What does 6 BR, 6XC, and 6X47 mean?
Re: Barrel Length
calibers
calibers
Re: Barrel Length
I'm not going to go as far as Groper and say that oyu are wasting time, as I think shooting is a benefit unto itself. BUt your chances of winning are pretty small if you use something designed for tactical use (as in 20" tube on a .308).
In Texas, Nevada and California - locations where I have shot 600 and 1,000 yard F-Class, the winners are usually using 28-32" tubes. More and more are running 7mm chamberings ( .284, .284 Improved, 7 SAUM, 7WSM).
At least for me, the key is to enjoy yourself and use it for practicing your wind reading skills. Winning is a bonus.
JeffVN
I'm not going to go as far as Groper and say that oyu are wasting time, as I think shooting is a benefit unto itself. BUt your chances of winning are pretty small if you use something designed for tactical use (as in 20" tube on a .308).
In Texas, Nevada and California - locations where I have shot 600 and 1,000 yard F-Class, the winners are usually using 28-32" tubes. More and more are running 7mm chamberings ( .284, .284 Improved, 7 SAUM, 7WSM).
At least for me, the key is to enjoy yourself and use it for practicing your wind reading skills. Winning is a bonus.
JeffVN
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least for me, the key is to enjoy yourself and use it for practicing your wind reading skills. Winning is a bonus.</div></div>
I have competed in many different venues in my life and I would have to say that the most oft repeated mistake is that beginners look at the winners and then buy what they're using, before they're even sure which end of the stick to hold.
If you're just looking to get better, the SPS will teach you a lot.
No matter WHAT you shoot, you will learn so much from one season of F class that you will want something different no matter what you buy.
Run what you have (cut it or don't) and then reevaluate at the end of the season based on what you learned about yourself and what is truly being competitive.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least for me, the key is to enjoy yourself and use it for practicing your wind reading skills. Winning is a bonus.</div></div>
I have competed in many different venues in my life and I would have to say that the most oft repeated mistake is that beginners look at the winners and then buy what they're using, before they're even sure which end of the stick to hold.
If you're just looking to get better, the SPS will teach you a lot.
No matter WHAT you shoot, you will learn so much from one season of F class that you will want something different no matter what you buy.
Run what you have (cut it or don't) and then reevaluate at the end of the season based on what you learned about yourself and what is truly being competitive.
John
Re: Barrel Length
i disagree, that shooting an SPS will teach you alot, as opposed to starting on an accurate rifle from day one. heres why;
How can you learn about reading the wind, or a steady hold when your impacts are all over the target regardless of where you hold or how much wind there is? You cant, you have no idea what the effect of wind is having when much more innaccuracy is being introduced by the rifles dispersion rather than the wind, so you learn nothing except frustration. The SPS has barrel pressure applied from the foreend of the stock, so the POI changes dramatically as the barrel heats up. They are designed for hunting, and have adeqaute accuracy for short range, 1-3 shots, Not a whole round of F-class.
If you start on an accurate rifle, built for F-class competition and you develop an accurate load, you can learn from YOUR mistakes because you KNOW the shot impacted right or left from the wind or your hold... ie, YOUR mistakes not the rifles. You will get alot better, much quicker thru lessons taught with quantifiable value without unknown errors creeping in.
i disagree, that shooting an SPS will teach you alot, as opposed to starting on an accurate rifle from day one. heres why;
How can you learn about reading the wind, or a steady hold when your impacts are all over the target regardless of where you hold or how much wind there is? You cant, you have no idea what the effect of wind is having when much more innaccuracy is being introduced by the rifles dispersion rather than the wind, so you learn nothing except frustration. The SPS has barrel pressure applied from the foreend of the stock, so the POI changes dramatically as the barrel heats up. They are designed for hunting, and have adeqaute accuracy for short range, 1-3 shots, Not a whole round of F-class.
If you start on an accurate rifle, built for F-class competition and you develop an accurate load, you can learn from YOUR mistakes because you KNOW the shot impacted right or left from the wind or your hold... ie, YOUR mistakes not the rifles. You will get alot better, much quicker thru lessons taught with quantifiable value without unknown errors creeping in.
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i disagree, that shooting an SPS will teach you alot, as opposed to starting on an accurate rifle from day one. heres why;
How can you learn about reading the wind, or a steady hold when your impacts are all over the target regardless of where you hold or how much wind there is? You cant, you have no idea what the effect of wind is having when much more innaccuracy is being introduced by the rifles dispersion rather than the wind, so you learn nothing except frustration. The SPS has barrel pressure applied from the foreend of the stock, so the POI changes dramatically as the barrel heats up. They are designed for hunting, and have adeqaute accuracy for short range, 1-3 shots, Not a whole round of F-class.
If you start on an accurate rifle, built for F-class competition and you develop an accurate load, you can learn from YOUR mistakes because you KNOW the shot impacted right or left from the wind or your hold... ie, YOUR mistakes not the rifles. You will get alot better, much quicker thru lessons taught with quantifiable value without unknown errors creeping in.
</div></div>
I have a feeling that you are thinking that the OP is talking of a "thin" barreled SPS while I'll feel he's looking into the Varmint or Tactical "heavy" barreled Remingtons. While I will agree that you shouldn't go to a F TR match and "expect" to win with one, Its not out of the realm of possibility. They are quite accurate and at distances in the 600+ range, the abilities to read wind better than other shooters will lead to less dropped points than most anything else. Granted, a more accurate rifle will shoot better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i disagree, that shooting an SPS will teach you alot, as opposed to starting on an accurate rifle from day one. heres why;
How can you learn about reading the wind, or a steady hold when your impacts are all over the target regardless of where you hold or how much wind there is? You cant, you have no idea what the effect of wind is having when much more innaccuracy is being introduced by the rifles dispersion rather than the wind, so you learn nothing except frustration. The SPS has barrel pressure applied from the foreend of the stock, so the POI changes dramatically as the barrel heats up. They are designed for hunting, and have adeqaute accuracy for short range, 1-3 shots, Not a whole round of F-class.
If you start on an accurate rifle, built for F-class competition and you develop an accurate load, you can learn from YOUR mistakes because you KNOW the shot impacted right or left from the wind or your hold... ie, YOUR mistakes not the rifles. You will get alot better, much quicker thru lessons taught with quantifiable value without unknown errors creeping in.
</div></div>
I have a feeling that you are thinking that the OP is talking of a "thin" barreled SPS while I'll feel he's looking into the Varmint or Tactical "heavy" barreled Remingtons. While I will agree that you shouldn't go to a F TR match and "expect" to win with one, Its not out of the realm of possibility. They are quite accurate and at distances in the 600+ range, the abilities to read wind better than other shooters will lead to less dropped points than most anything else. Granted, a more accurate rifle will shoot better.
Re: Barrel Length
I had a SPS 20inch which I tried to compete with at Fclass in my club .Scores never got over 49/60 change rifle to one with a longer barrel and more accurate -still set up as a tac rifle and never shot below 50 and usually in the upper 50s/60 now.My 2cents
I had a SPS 20inch which I tried to compete with at Fclass in my club .Scores never got over 49/60 change rifle to one with a longer barrel and more accurate -still set up as a tac rifle and never shot below 50 and usually in the upper 50s/60 now.My 2cents
Re: Barrel Length
FT/R is limited to 223 and 308. Maybe thats what you mean when you say f-class. Ft/r is a great class to learn and shoot a 308 .When you move up to F and F open dont waste your time with a 308
FT/R is limited to 223 and 308. Maybe thats what you mean when you say f-class. Ft/r is a great class to learn and shoot a 308 .When you move up to F and F open dont waste your time with a 308
Re: Barrel Length
I think that a lot of the shadings/differences your questions (and answers) are alluding to will tend to become overshadowed by range conditions way far downrange. Extreme accuracy needs to takes a second seat to reliable accuracy, and some provisions that allow a barrel to survive longest in the campaign.
Shooters who try the hotrod approach don't appear to be getting the results they seek. I may be wrong, but that's my observation.
Where barrel length is concerned; longevity is more important to me than ultimate velocity. I tend to run a longer barrel with a milder load to achieve the same velocity. That way I can run the same barrel longer, and spend less of my overall time in the long run (and proportion of bore life) on redeveloping loads for new replacement barrels.
When shooting the same barrel at significantly shorter distances, I try to optimize the loads with lighter bullets, also running at moderate pressures.
My F Class LR chambering is a .260, which is probably somewhere at the smaller end of adequate case capacity for 1Kyd. IMHO, both F/TR chamberings are less adequate for 1Kyd than the .260, and 6.5-284 is more than I'd like to be running in terms of barrel longevity. 6.5x55 should be ideal, but I haven't seen many that actually achieve such expectations.
For LR my .260 bullet is the 142SMK or 140gr AMax. For shorter 300-600yd, 120gr Nosler BT or 120SMK, and for 200yd 95gr VMax are my choices.
I think that some review of the LPR Web Site could prove beneficial.
Greg
I think that a lot of the shadings/differences your questions (and answers) are alluding to will tend to become overshadowed by range conditions way far downrange. Extreme accuracy needs to takes a second seat to reliable accuracy, and some provisions that allow a barrel to survive longest in the campaign.
Shooters who try the hotrod approach don't appear to be getting the results they seek. I may be wrong, but that's my observation.
Where barrel length is concerned; longevity is more important to me than ultimate velocity. I tend to run a longer barrel with a milder load to achieve the same velocity. That way I can run the same barrel longer, and spend less of my overall time in the long run (and proportion of bore life) on redeveloping loads for new replacement barrels.
When shooting the same barrel at significantly shorter distances, I try to optimize the loads with lighter bullets, also running at moderate pressures.
My F Class LR chambering is a .260, which is probably somewhere at the smaller end of adequate case capacity for 1Kyd. IMHO, both F/TR chamberings are less adequate for 1Kyd than the .260, and 6.5-284 is more than I'd like to be running in terms of barrel longevity. 6.5x55 should be ideal, but I haven't seen many that actually achieve such expectations.
For LR my .260 bullet is the 142SMK or 140gr AMax. For shorter 300-600yd, 120gr Nosler BT or 120SMK, and for 200yd 95gr VMax are my choices.
I think that some review of the LPR Web Site could prove beneficial.
Greg
Re: Barrel Length
As long as the bullet is still traveling nose-on at 1000 yards, what it was that delivered the bullet is moot. Laser like calibers, shot from heavy equipment, are an advantage for any shooter at any level. However, this sort of equipment undermines development of marksmanship skill. Those with skill still win, and those without it still lose. My suggestion, get a match conditioned commercial equivilent of the M16A2, and shoot it in 1000 yard competition. Shooting in Service Rifle division of NRA LR, with peep sights and sling, will help any interested in becoming an extraordinary shooter, no matter what equipment is brought to the firing line.
As long as the bullet is still traveling nose-on at 1000 yards, what it was that delivered the bullet is moot. Laser like calibers, shot from heavy equipment, are an advantage for any shooter at any level. However, this sort of equipment undermines development of marksmanship skill. Those with skill still win, and those without it still lose. My suggestion, get a match conditioned commercial equivilent of the M16A2, and shoot it in 1000 yard competition. Shooting in Service Rifle division of NRA LR, with peep sights and sling, will help any interested in becoming an extraordinary shooter, no matter what equipment is brought to the firing line.
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a SPS 20inch which I tried to compete with at Fclass in my club .Scores never got over 49/60 change rifle to one with a longer barrel and more accurate -still set up as a tac rifle and never shot below 50 and usually in the upper 50s/60 now.My 2cents</div></div>
I started shooting F/TR class with a SPS Tactical 20in .223 with a 1-9 twist and a 4-14 nikon buckmaster scope. I shot the reduced course at Odessa (200 yrds). My scores averaged in the mid 180's out of 200. Not bad, but not what I knew I was capable of.
Over the winter I swapped barrels and put on a Douglas premium 1-8 twist 24inch M-40 taper, went to 75 a-max's, a Jewel trigger and a 6-24 nikon Monarch scope and a solid fiberglass stock with alum. bedding block. My scores went from mid 180's to high 190's at the first match and I never looked back.
I am still going to trade up to a nightforce 8-32 benchrest scope when the funds become available.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a SPS 20inch which I tried to compete with at Fclass in my club .Scores never got over 49/60 change rifle to one with a longer barrel and more accurate -still set up as a tac rifle and never shot below 50 and usually in the upper 50s/60 now.My 2cents</div></div>
I started shooting F/TR class with a SPS Tactical 20in .223 with a 1-9 twist and a 4-14 nikon buckmaster scope. I shot the reduced course at Odessa (200 yrds). My scores averaged in the mid 180's out of 200. Not bad, but not what I knew I was capable of.
Over the winter I swapped barrels and put on a Douglas premium 1-8 twist 24inch M-40 taper, went to 75 a-max's, a Jewel trigger and a 6-24 nikon Monarch scope and a solid fiberglass stock with alum. bedding block. My scores went from mid 180's to high 190's at the first match and I never looked back.
I am still going to trade up to a nightforce 8-32 benchrest scope when the funds become available.
Re: Barrel Length
I understand the issue with the barrel contacting the stock. That is going to be one of the first things I am going to swap out. I was going to go with the F class stock seen here: http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-stocks-competition-stock-list.php?subnav=branch4a . @ Jeffvn, I appreciate the comment about the barrel length, I;m thinking the 26-32" is a good idea as well. I know the difference between the F class and F/TR. Id love to go with the 6.5X.284, but the money isn't there. Thanks everyone for your input.
I understand the issue with the barrel contacting the stock. That is going to be one of the first things I am going to swap out. I was going to go with the F class stock seen here: http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-stocks-competition-stock-list.php?subnav=branch4a . @ Jeffvn, I appreciate the comment about the barrel length, I;m thinking the 26-32" is a good idea as well. I know the difference between the F class and F/TR. Id love to go with the 6.5X.284, but the money isn't there. Thanks everyone for your input.
Re: Barrel Length
so you buy an SPS, throw away the stock, throw away the barrel and what are you left with? an action and a shitty ass trigger (which you will also throw away)...
Now after you buy the SPS, then a new barrel, new stock, new trigger, youve just spent near enough the same on building a nice custom rifle anyway!
Doing it right the first time saves you money in the long run...
so you buy an SPS, throw away the stock, throw away the barrel and what are you left with? an action and a shitty ass trigger (which you will also throw away)...
Now after you buy the SPS, then a new barrel, new stock, new trigger, youve just spent near enough the same on building a nice custom rifle anyway!
Doing it right the first time saves you money in the long run...
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you buy an SPS, throw away the stock, throw away the barrel and what are you left with? an action and a shitty ass trigger (which you will also throw away)...
Now after you buy the SPS, then a new barrel, new stock, new trigger, youve just spent near enough the same on building a nice custom rifle anyway!
Doing it right the first time saves you money in the long run...</div></div>
Doing it right, for the right or wrong reasons, could mean a heavy, long barreled 6.5/284 with adjustable stock...; but, it seems to me, too much emphasis is placed on buying rather than practicing. Who wins with a standard rifle, the marksman with the most knowledge and skill.
If we begin with the fact that the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, then, the only thing that's important is learning how to properly point the barrel to hit where aimed. All this interest in barrel length is just a distraction to good shooting. As I mentioned in an earlier post, regarding barrel length, all that's necessary is something long enough to get a bullet nose-on to the desired distance.
Consider the big picture, it's about making the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground consistent, shot to shot. If the ground isn't moving, and the gun isn't broken, not hitting where aimed is all about the shooter not understanding where the barrel is pointed, or not being able to be consistent with it all from shot to shot. Barrel length in these matters is as meaningless as the color of icing on a cake.
Once a shooter has developed the skill to recognize it is possible to send a bullet into the hole vacated by the earlier bullet, at any identifiable target, within a distance where the bullet is stable, then, the shooter can afford the luxury to consider the minutiae of barrel length.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: groper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so you buy an SPS, throw away the stock, throw away the barrel and what are you left with? an action and a shitty ass trigger (which you will also throw away)...
Now after you buy the SPS, then a new barrel, new stock, new trigger, youve just spent near enough the same on building a nice custom rifle anyway!
Doing it right the first time saves you money in the long run...</div></div>
Doing it right, for the right or wrong reasons, could mean a heavy, long barreled 6.5/284 with adjustable stock...; but, it seems to me, too much emphasis is placed on buying rather than practicing. Who wins with a standard rifle, the marksman with the most knowledge and skill.
If we begin with the fact that the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, then, the only thing that's important is learning how to properly point the barrel to hit where aimed. All this interest in barrel length is just a distraction to good shooting. As I mentioned in an earlier post, regarding barrel length, all that's necessary is something long enough to get a bullet nose-on to the desired distance.
Consider the big picture, it's about making the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground consistent, shot to shot. If the ground isn't moving, and the gun isn't broken, not hitting where aimed is all about the shooter not understanding where the barrel is pointed, or not being able to be consistent with it all from shot to shot. Barrel length in these matters is as meaningless as the color of icing on a cake.
Once a shooter has developed the skill to recognize it is possible to send a bullet into the hole vacated by the earlier bullet, at any identifiable target, within a distance where the bullet is stable, then, the shooter can afford the luxury to consider the minutiae of barrel length.
Re: Barrel Length
Wouldn't it be easier to just buy the FT/R Savage rifle, put nice glass on it?
Go to the match, talk to some of the guys shooting(trust me, you won't be able to shut them up after they start talking about equipment), and then make decisions on what to get. Don't just start thinking you need "X" brand rifle.
Scott (Savage out of the box will win) B
Wouldn't it be easier to just buy the FT/R Savage rifle, put nice glass on it?
Go to the match, talk to some of the guys shooting(trust me, you won't be able to shut them up after they start talking about equipment), and then make decisions on what to get. Don't just start thinking you need "X" brand rifle.
Scott (Savage out of the box will win) B
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sdb777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't it be easier to just buy the FT/R Savage rifle, put nice glass on it?
Go to the match, talk to some of the guys shooting(trust me, you won't be able to shut them up after they start talking about equipment), and then make decisions on what to get. Don't just start thinking you need "X" brand rifle.
Scott (Savage out of the box will win) B</div></div>
Maybe it's too easy. Some folks want to complicate the uncomplicated. Others have a mindset engraved from exposures to popular culture rather than having developed their basis of understanding from actual experiences and/or facts. These folks do not, it appears, have a capacity for critical thinking.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sdb777</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't it be easier to just buy the FT/R Savage rifle, put nice glass on it?
Go to the match, talk to some of the guys shooting(trust me, you won't be able to shut them up after they start talking about equipment), and then make decisions on what to get. Don't just start thinking you need "X" brand rifle.
Scott (Savage out of the box will win) B</div></div>
Maybe it's too easy. Some folks want to complicate the uncomplicated. Others have a mindset engraved from exposures to popular culture rather than having developed their basis of understanding from actual experiences and/or facts. These folks do not, it appears, have a capacity for critical thinking.
Re: Barrel Length
Dave, you might find this post interesting on 32" PSS with a diff stock
http://www.shootforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15021
Dave, you might find this post interesting on 32" PSS with a diff stock
http://www.shootforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=15021
Re: Barrel Length
26" SPS varmint synthetic 243. Swapped out stock for a Mcmillan A1 stock crappy assed Nikon Monarch 600 yrds. Yes the wind was blowing about 8mph from the right. I reduced the pull on the stock trigger a bit. The Remingtons will shoot good enough to begin with.
Yeah I know the 243 would be in the F Open Class.
Answer to your question IMHO is 26 Inch
As was stated earlier the stock is the weak point of the SPS. The Mcmillan stock upgrade would be ideal. Just so you know the 223 with 77gr bullets don't give anything up to the 308 up to 175gr bullets. Cheaper Ammo if $ is a concern. A Mcmillan stock with adjustable comb would be Awesome!
26" SPS varmint synthetic 243. Swapped out stock for a Mcmillan A1 stock crappy assed Nikon Monarch 600 yrds. Yes the wind was blowing about 8mph from the right. I reduced the pull on the stock trigger a bit. The Remingtons will shoot good enough to begin with.
Yeah I know the 243 would be in the F Open Class.
Answer to your question IMHO is 26 Inch
As was stated earlier the stock is the weak point of the SPS. The Mcmillan stock upgrade would be ideal. Just so you know the 223 with 77gr bullets don't give anything up to the 308 up to 175gr bullets. Cheaper Ammo if $ is a concern. A Mcmillan stock with adjustable comb would be Awesome!
Re: Barrel Length
I agree with Charles.
Building a firearm, for whatever reason, when currently available factory firearms have not failed to out shoot their owners' capability is optimistic, illogical, and probably doomed to produce disappointment when the new owners' performances show no significant improvement to be derived from the expenditure. The number of shooters who actually benefit from such strategies are clearly fewer than all those who undertake them.
While I respect the fans of other makers, I firmly believe that in recent years Savage has managed to produce both quality and choice to such a degree that building a unique rifle makes less and less sense.
Sure there are good reasons to build custom rifles, and the build is well worth the cost. But these instances constitute a niche market which is well served by the few truly outstanding builders available.
My suggested approach is to find something you really like, and then start figuring just where it's failing to deliver something you can actually achieve with a better rifle.
Greg
I agree with Charles.
Building a firearm, for whatever reason, when currently available factory firearms have not failed to out shoot their owners' capability is optimistic, illogical, and probably doomed to produce disappointment when the new owners' performances show no significant improvement to be derived from the expenditure. The number of shooters who actually benefit from such strategies are clearly fewer than all those who undertake them.
While I respect the fans of other makers, I firmly believe that in recent years Savage has managed to produce both quality and choice to such a degree that building a unique rifle makes less and less sense.
Sure there are good reasons to build custom rifles, and the build is well worth the cost. But these instances constitute a niche market which is well served by the few truly outstanding builders available.
My suggested approach is to find something you really like, and then start figuring just where it's failing to deliver something you can actually achieve with a better rifle.
Greg
Re: Barrel Length
I don't care for super long barrels so my vote goes for the 20" but why not go down to wherever the competitions your interested in participating are being held at and ask the shooters their opinions? I gurantee you get a few good opinions
I don't care for super long barrels so my vote goes for the 20" but why not go down to wherever the competitions your interested in participating are being held at and ask the shooters their opinions? I gurantee you get a few good opinions
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Barrel Length
Definately a 26" barrel. The .308 is going to need every bit of velocity it can get @ 1000 yds. Most F-class guys with dedicated F-class guns are running 28"-32" barrels. I completetly disagree that you will be wasting your time with the factory SPS. Ive seen guys with factory Rem 700 with a 24"-26" tubes and a $300 Super Sniper 10x42 do just fine. Its all about what your trying to get out of it. Are you trying to become a better shooter? Or are you trying to win?
I personally shoot a factory Rem 700 BDL Varmint Synthetic with a factory 24" barrel and if I do my part, itll shoot sub-moa @ 1000 w/o any issues. The issues start when the wind pics up. If your into winning, then (hopefully you can already shoot) spend some $$$$ on some good glass and an F-Class rifle. What you are trying to do is eliminate everything but you. Your ammos perfect, scope is perfect, rifles perfect, so the only reason you missed that shot is you. JMHO. Good luck!
Definately a 26" barrel. The .308 is going to need every bit of velocity it can get @ 1000 yds. Most F-class guys with dedicated F-class guns are running 28"-32" barrels. I completetly disagree that you will be wasting your time with the factory SPS. Ive seen guys with factory Rem 700 with a 24"-26" tubes and a $300 Super Sniper 10x42 do just fine. Its all about what your trying to get out of it. Are you trying to become a better shooter? Or are you trying to win?
I personally shoot a factory Rem 700 BDL Varmint Synthetic with a factory 24" barrel and if I do my part, itll shoot sub-moa @ 1000 w/o any issues. The issues start when the wind pics up. If your into winning, then (hopefully you can already shoot) spend some $$$$ on some good glass and an F-Class rifle. What you are trying to do is eliminate everything but you. Your ammos perfect, scope is perfect, rifles perfect, so the only reason you missed that shot is you. JMHO. Good luck!
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't care for super long barrels so my vote goes for the 20" but why not go down to wherever the competitions your interested in participating are being held at and ask the shooters their opinions? I gurantee you get a few good opinions </div></div>
Tactical matches your gonna see mostly 24"-26" barrels. You will see some 20"-22" barrels but not like youll see the 24"-26".
F-Class youll see anything from 24"-32". Depends on if the guy is shooting a dedicated F-Class rifle or his "utility" rifle. If you want to do more than F-Class (ie tactical matches, hunting) than the longest I would go is 26".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't care for super long barrels so my vote goes for the 20" but why not go down to wherever the competitions your interested in participating are being held at and ask the shooters their opinions? I gurantee you get a few good opinions </div></div>
Tactical matches your gonna see mostly 24"-26" barrels. You will see some 20"-22" barrels but not like youll see the 24"-26".
F-Class youll see anything from 24"-32". Depends on if the guy is shooting a dedicated F-Class rifle or his "utility" rifle. If you want to do more than F-Class (ie tactical matches, hunting) than the longest I would go is 26".
Re: Barrel Length
All,
First off, I've never met Seth8541, but I know I'd like him. He's a critical thinker. And, folks, that's all it really takes to get the the best answer. Use your brain.
All,
First off, I've never met Seth8541, but I know I'd like him. He's a critical thinker. And, folks, that's all it really takes to get the the best answer. Use your brain.
S
Seth8541
Guest
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
First off, I've never met Seth8541, but I know I'd like him. He's a critical thinker. And, folks, that's all it really takes to get the the best answer. Use your brain. </div></div>
Sterling,
Thanks for the compliment bud. Your too kind. Happy New Year to you!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
First off, I've never met Seth8541, but I know I'd like him. He's a critical thinker. And, folks, that's all it really takes to get the the best answer. Use your brain. </div></div>
Sterling,
Thanks for the compliment bud. Your too kind. Happy New Year to you!
Re: Barrel Length
@ Seth8541 Who wouldn't like to win? But realisticly, I have no shot. That being said, I'm just in it to have fun. I am very pasionate about shooting, and have been for many years. I've gotsonme killer groups that would impress many shooters with my ruger 22. Im looking to do something bigger than that. Ive shot 6 inch groups @ 600 yards with my AR-15. I'm looking for a new challange. Bolt guns are something "new" to me, not that I've never shot them, I just never dedicated any time to them before. @ Sterling, you have wonderful advice. I appreciate every bit of it.
@ Seth8541 Who wouldn't like to win? But realisticly, I have no shot. That being said, I'm just in it to have fun. I am very pasionate about shooting, and have been for many years. I've gotsonme killer groups that would impress many shooters with my ruger 22. Im looking to do something bigger than that. Ive shot 6 inch groups @ 600 yards with my AR-15. I'm looking for a new challange. Bolt guns are something "new" to me, not that I've never shot them, I just never dedicated any time to them before. @ Sterling, you have wonderful advice. I appreciate every bit of it.
Re: Barrel Length
If you go with a bore type barrel you won't have much to worry about up to 42" barrels such as the ones they use on the 20mm sniper rifles. the 50bmg uses a barrel starting at 32 and up to 38 stock I believe. I want to upgrade to a 32" from a 24" for those longer shots. I won't be packing this 19 pound barrel all that far threw the trees, but With such a reach on it I could kill any thing I want with out leaving the bed of my truck. No more sneaking up on an elk or deer.lol What I'm concerned about is finding the right powder for a constant burn to use the full effectiveness of the barrels length. Other wise you have a short burn and loose out on the shot. I'm wondering if I'm going to need a larger case such as going from my 30-06 and chambering for a 300RUM in order to hold enough charge. I'm loading 58 grains of IMR 4350 and nearly need to compress the charge. This can cause issue when not done properly using BTHP bullets. If I'm right the 300RUM will hold about 101grains of powder. Maintaining a slow burn at 50K cups would be perfect if the charge will last until the bullet exits the muzzle.
If you go with a bore type barrel you won't have much to worry about up to 42" barrels such as the ones they use on the 20mm sniper rifles. the 50bmg uses a barrel starting at 32 and up to 38 stock I believe. I want to upgrade to a 32" from a 24" for those longer shots. I won't be packing this 19 pound barrel all that far threw the trees, but With such a reach on it I could kill any thing I want with out leaving the bed of my truck. No more sneaking up on an elk or deer.lol What I'm concerned about is finding the right powder for a constant burn to use the full effectiveness of the barrels length. Other wise you have a short burn and loose out on the shot. I'm wondering if I'm going to need a larger case such as going from my 30-06 and chambering for a 300RUM in order to hold enough charge. I'm loading 58 grains of IMR 4350 and nearly need to compress the charge. This can cause issue when not done properly using BTHP bullets. If I'm right the 300RUM will hold about 101grains of powder. Maintaining a slow burn at 50K cups would be perfect if the charge will last until the bullet exits the muzzle.
A
Augustus
Guest
Re: Barrel Length
Captian, you are about to get chewed up. You obviously are a little short on first hand experience and a little long in your capacity to regurgitate that which you have read. Folks here already have you pegged so you probably should prepare yourself for the hail storm that is going to engulf you if you choose to continue.
Captian, you are about to get chewed up. You obviously are a little short on first hand experience and a little long in your capacity to regurgitate that which you have read. Folks here already have you pegged so you probably should prepare yourself for the hail storm that is going to engulf you if you choose to continue.
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you go with a bore type barrel you won't have much to worry about up to 42" barrels such as the ones they use on the 20mm sniper rifles. the 50bmg uses a barrel starting at 32 and up to 38 stock I believe. I want to upgrade to a 32" from a 24" for those longer shots. I won't be packing this 19 pound barrel all that far threw the trees, but With such a reach on it I could kill any thing I want with out leaving the bed of my truck. No more sneaking up on an elk or deer.lol What I'm concerned about is finding the right powder for a constant burn to use the full effectiveness of the barrels length. Other wise you have a short burn and loose out on the shot. I'm wondering if I'm going to need a larger case such as going from my 30-06 and chambering for a 300RUM in order to hold enough charge. I'm loading 58 grains of IMR 4350 and nearly need to compress the charge. This can cause issue when not done properly using BTHP bullets. If I'm right the 300RUM will hold about 101grains of powder. Maintaining a slow burn at 50K cups would be perfect if the charge will last until the bullet exits the muzzle.</div></div>
Get some basic marksmanship training. With a basis of understanding for shooting in general, hopefully, you will get a sense about what's really important to good shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you go with a bore type barrel you won't have much to worry about up to 42" barrels such as the ones they use on the 20mm sniper rifles. the 50bmg uses a barrel starting at 32 and up to 38 stock I believe. I want to upgrade to a 32" from a 24" for those longer shots. I won't be packing this 19 pound barrel all that far threw the trees, but With such a reach on it I could kill any thing I want with out leaving the bed of my truck. No more sneaking up on an elk or deer.lol What I'm concerned about is finding the right powder for a constant burn to use the full effectiveness of the barrels length. Other wise you have a short burn and loose out on the shot. I'm wondering if I'm going to need a larger case such as going from my 30-06 and chambering for a 300RUM in order to hold enough charge. I'm loading 58 grains of IMR 4350 and nearly need to compress the charge. This can cause issue when not done properly using BTHP bullets. If I'm right the 300RUM will hold about 101grains of powder. Maintaining a slow burn at 50K cups would be perfect if the charge will last until the bullet exits the muzzle.</div></div>
Get some basic marksmanship training. With a basis of understanding for shooting in general, hopefully, you will get a sense about what's really important to good shooting.
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you go with a bore type barrel you won't have much to worry about up to 42" barrels such as the ones they use on the 20mm sniper rifles. the 50bmg uses a barrel starting at 32 and up to 38 stock I believe. I want to upgrade to a 32" from a 24" for those longer shots. I won't be packing this 19 pound barrel all that far threw the trees, but With such a reach on it I could kill any thing I want with out leaving the bed of my truck. No more sneaking up on an elk or deer.lol What I'm concerned about is finding the right powder for a constant burn to use the full effectiveness of the barrels length. Other wise you have a short burn and loose out on the shot. I'm wondering if I'm going to need a larger case such as going from my 30-06 and chambering for a 300RUM in order to hold enough charge. I'm loading 58 grains of IMR 4350 and nearly need to compress the charge. This can cause issue when not done properly using BTHP bullets. If I'm right the 300RUM will hold about 101grains of powder. Maintaining a slow burn at 50K cups would be perfect if the charge will last until the bullet exits the muzzle. </div></div>
LMAO...........this ought to be good
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpt. Coughtry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you go with a bore type barrel you won't have much to worry about up to 42" barrels such as the ones they use on the 20mm sniper rifles. the 50bmg uses a barrel starting at 32 and up to 38 stock I believe. I want to upgrade to a 32" from a 24" for those longer shots. I won't be packing this 19 pound barrel all that far threw the trees, but With such a reach on it I could kill any thing I want with out leaving the bed of my truck. No more sneaking up on an elk or deer.lol What I'm concerned about is finding the right powder for a constant burn to use the full effectiveness of the barrels length. Other wise you have a short burn and loose out on the shot. I'm wondering if I'm going to need a larger case such as going from my 30-06 and chambering for a 300RUM in order to hold enough charge. I'm loading 58 grains of IMR 4350 and nearly need to compress the charge. This can cause issue when not done properly using BTHP bullets. If I'm right the 300RUM will hold about 101grains of powder. Maintaining a slow burn at 50K cups would be perfect if the charge will last until the bullet exits the muzzle. </div></div>
LMAO...........this ought to be good
Re: Barrel Length
I run a 30" 1:7 twist on my 22LR. everything else 38"+ for slow powders!
I run a 30" 1:7 twist on my 22LR. everything else 38"+ for slow powders!
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Douglasalways</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I was asking, I've read that a lot of people saying that the 20's are stiffer than the 26's which help with accuracy. I could see this being tre up to say, 500 yards or so. But the loss of velocity out to 1200yrds is what I'm looking at. </div></div>
Douglas when I got back into shooting and started Fclass shooting I had a SPS 308 20 inch rifle .My score out of 60 were consistently between 42-49 out of a possible 60 -it was crap to shoot with out long for me .I then got a 260 in a New Zealand made Barnard action, 28inch barrel admittedly not with a fclass stock{AICS} and started shooting middle to late 50s with a few 60's along the way .Take good advice and buy the right Kit to do the job- I have since got a Bill Shehane fclass stock with a Barnard single shot action and a 32inch barrel in 284shehane -does the job wickedly!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Douglasalways</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I was asking, I've read that a lot of people saying that the 20's are stiffer than the 26's which help with accuracy. I could see this being tre up to say, 500 yards or so. But the loss of velocity out to 1200yrds is what I'm looking at. </div></div>
Douglas when I got back into shooting and started Fclass shooting I had a SPS 308 20 inch rifle .My score out of 60 were consistently between 42-49 out of a possible 60 -it was crap to shoot with out long for me .I then got a 260 in a New Zealand made Barnard action, 28inch barrel admittedly not with a fclass stock{AICS} and started shooting middle to late 50s with a few 60's along the way .Take good advice and buy the right Kit to do the job- I have since got a Bill Shehane fclass stock with a Barnard single shot action and a 32inch barrel in 284shehane -does the job wickedly!
Re: Barrel Length
if you are looking for a dedicated f-class rifle for starting I would look for a Savage f-class rifle (6.5 X 284 or 6 Norma). Those shoot great out of the box and you really don't need to do anything to them plus you can change out your own barrel. I compete in the TR F-class and use a custom rem700 .308 26". Most of the guys I shoot with also do palma and they all go 30" and greater when it comes to barrel lengths on there f-class rifles.
Anyhow if I was on a budget and starting out I would choose one of these:
Either F-open Savage:
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/
Or
F/TR Savage:
Tons of Reviews out there and I have seen first hand these shoot!
http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-12F.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_M12-Fclass.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_55/ai_n31326587/
if you are looking for a dedicated f-class rifle for starting I would look for a Savage f-class rifle (6.5 X 284 or 6 Norma). Those shoot great out of the box and you really don't need to do anything to them plus you can change out your own barrel. I compete in the TR F-class and use a custom rem700 .308 26". Most of the guys I shoot with also do palma and they all go 30" and greater when it comes to barrel lengths on there f-class rifles.
Anyhow if I was on a budget and starting out I would choose one of these:
Either F-open Savage:
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/
Or
F/TR Savage:
Tons of Reviews out there and I have seen first hand these shoot!
http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-12F.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_M12-Fclass.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_55/ai_n31326587/
Re: Barrel Length
26" barrel will be a better option than a 20" barrel.
Have a look at other rifles as others have mentioned. If learning to shoot f class is what your after then you should really look at something thats geared for that.
Also, there are other calibers out there that may help you alot more than the venerable .308. Sure its a great caliber, but its not the most forgiving. In saying that its a great round to learn on.
You could always learn on a 700 action and provided you still have the will and enthusiasm to continue after you have burnt out a barrel, you could get her re-barreled in a new caliber with the action trued up and get some hand loads up her and your talking a whole new ball game.
Theres many ways to skin a cat. Ask questions, do your research and you might just realise theres a better way to do what you want and avoid wasting money on things that may not fit the requirements.
26" barrel will be a better option than a 20" barrel.
Have a look at other rifles as others have mentioned. If learning to shoot f class is what your after then you should really look at something thats geared for that.
Also, there are other calibers out there that may help you alot more than the venerable .308. Sure its a great caliber, but its not the most forgiving. In saying that its a great round to learn on.
You could always learn on a 700 action and provided you still have the will and enthusiasm to continue after you have burnt out a barrel, you could get her re-barreled in a new caliber with the action trued up and get some hand loads up her and your talking a whole new ball game.
Theres many ways to skin a cat. Ask questions, do your research and you might just realise theres a better way to do what you want and avoid wasting money on things that may not fit the requirements.
Re: Barrel Length
All I know is being a military sniper shooting the M24 which is a Remington 700 with a 24 inch heavy barrel with a basic aluminum bedded Kevlar stock I can hit 1200yds consistently all day. Allot of people hate on Remington’s saying others are better and what not but for years and years know the military snipers that are taking out targets all over the world shoot a 24" Remington 700 with one of the longest confirmed shot taken at 2100yds with a .308!! That’s all I’m saying
All I know is being a military sniper shooting the M24 which is a Remington 700 with a 24 inch heavy barrel with a basic aluminum bedded Kevlar stock I can hit 1200yds consistently all day. Allot of people hate on Remington’s saying others are better and what not but for years and years know the military snipers that are taking out targets all over the world shoot a 24" Remington 700 with one of the longest confirmed shot taken at 2100yds with a .308!! That’s all I’m saying
Re: Barrel Length
It's a new model year, and Savage now lists 6 firearms available with the .260 Rem chambering, several of which look pretty nice for LR, if not F Class.
Besides, if Savage makes the model you like, but not the chambering, and the chambering is available in a barrel made for another model; then it's not a big jump for the custom shop to cobble one up for you more the way you like it.
Greg
It's a new model year, and Savage now lists 6 firearms available with the .260 Rem chambering, several of which look pretty nice for LR, if not F Class.
Besides, if Savage makes the model you like, but not the chambering, and the chambering is available in a barrel made for another model; then it's not a big jump for the custom shop to cobble one up for you more the way you like it.
Greg
Re: Barrel Length
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Charles.
Building a firearm, for whatever reason, when currently available factory firearms have not failed to out shoot their owners' capability is optimistic, illogical, and probably doomed to produce disappointment when the new owners' performances show no significant improvement to be derived from the expenditure. The number of shooters who actually benefit from such strategies are clearly fewer than all those who undertake them.
While I respect the fans of other makers, I firmly believe that in recent years Savage has managed to produce both quality and choice to such a degree that building a unique rifle makes less and less sense.
Sure there are good reasons to build custom rifles, and the build is well worth the cost. But these instances constitute a niche market which is well served by the few truly outstanding builders available.
My suggested approach is to find something you really like, and then start figuring just where it's failing to deliver something you can actually achieve with a better rifle.
Greg</div></div>
+1
I have a Sako 75 varmint in 308. Not a sexy custom. If I compare the groups it can deliver with the targets online from some of the custom guys over here then all customs do not outperform a sako out the box. £1000 vs £3500 for no difference. No thanks
If I ever get good enough for the sako to be the limiting factor then I will think about a custom. I suspect I would just buy a TRG or an AI
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Charles.
Building a firearm, for whatever reason, when currently available factory firearms have not failed to out shoot their owners' capability is optimistic, illogical, and probably doomed to produce disappointment when the new owners' performances show no significant improvement to be derived from the expenditure. The number of shooters who actually benefit from such strategies are clearly fewer than all those who undertake them.
While I respect the fans of other makers, I firmly believe that in recent years Savage has managed to produce both quality and choice to such a degree that building a unique rifle makes less and less sense.
Sure there are good reasons to build custom rifles, and the build is well worth the cost. But these instances constitute a niche market which is well served by the few truly outstanding builders available.
My suggested approach is to find something you really like, and then start figuring just where it's failing to deliver something you can actually achieve with a better rifle.
Greg</div></div>
+1
I have a Sako 75 varmint in 308. Not a sexy custom. If I compare the groups it can deliver with the targets online from some of the custom guys over here then all customs do not outperform a sako out the box. £1000 vs £3500 for no difference. No thanks
If I ever get good enough for the sako to be the limiting factor then I will think about a custom. I suspect I would just buy a TRG or an AI
Re: Barrel Length
Because of wind, speed contributes to accuracy. If you are off a little on your wind correction, you won't be off as much if you have more speed.
20" barrels are a little more accurate (all else being equal and it seldom is). They are also lighter and easier handling and have gained favor with the competition tactical shooting bunch.
F Class is a different deal than tactical. My suggestion is to go to a meet or two and see what the guys are shooting and start there. And yes, the Savage F Class may be a good place to start.
Because of wind, speed contributes to accuracy. If you are off a little on your wind correction, you won't be off as much if you have more speed.
20" barrels are a little more accurate (all else being equal and it seldom is). They are also lighter and easier handling and have gained favor with the competition tactical shooting bunch.
F Class is a different deal than tactical. My suggestion is to go to a meet or two and see what the guys are shooting and start there. And yes, the Savage F Class may be a good place to start.
