Bartlein 5R 1:11.25 vs 1:10 in 20 inch M40/24

[Boltgun7443]

My police duty rifle is a Bartlein 5R 1:11.25 and is 20 inches long. We shoot a Hornady TAP 168 ELD. I'm averaging 2645 to 2652 fps.

5 round groups are consistant 1/2 to 3/4 moa. I'm right at 3200 rounds and although I'm not losing accuracy, I'm getting ready to order another barrel so that when its time, Ill have it on hand.

Two new rifles have been built on our team, and they are barreled with a Bartlein 5R 1:10 at 20 inches. Accuracy is the same...1/2 to 3/4.

We plink at 1000 yards 1-2 times a year on a steel range up north, but we mainly work 25y to 125ys.

Question is...do I just stick with what is working for me with the 1:11.25 or go with the 1:10 and when I retire the rifle, I can load personal rounds a bit heavier for extended ranges?

 

[Supersubes]

I don’t think that there’s any practical difference between the two.

 

[...]

honestly you arent going to notice a difference between the 2

 

[Boltgun7443]

At short distances, it seems that its 1/2 dozen in one, and 6 in the other...since the 1:10 is hitting just the same, I'm leaning that way so that when I'm done shooting factory 168s, I can have the option to bump heavier rounds.

 

[NLS7162]

Not sure if you would want to go this direction or not!

Our agency is usually late to the party on things, but I was able to convince the powers that be to re-barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor. With Hornady just releasing 6.5 Creedmoor TAP 147gr ELD and us needing to re-barrel soon, they agreed to let us get one done and see what we thought. We just recently got the rifle back with a 20" 1:7 twist barrel and were waiting on ammo. Ammo showed up a couple weeks ago and we have had a chance to send some rounds down range. We are getting 2610 fps and very good accuracy. Recoil is definitely less when shooting it side by side with the 308's. Our next rifle will be sent off for a 6.5 barrel this week. We are going to get a 22" put on it and compare before sending the rest in for barrels.

 

[wade2big]

Not sure if you would want to go this direction or not!

Our agency is usually late to the party on things, but I was able to convince the powers that be to re-barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor. With Hornady just releasing 6.5 Creedmoor TAP 147gr ELD and us needing to re-barrel soon, they agreed to let us get one done and see what we thought. We just recently got the rifle back with a 20" 1:7 twist barrel and were waiting on ammo. Ammo showed up a couple weeks ago and we have had a chance to send some rounds down range. We are getting 2610 fps and very good accuracy. Recoil is definitely less when shooting it side by side with the 308's. Our next rifle will be sent off for a 6.5 barrel this week. We are going to get a 22" put on it and compare before sending the rest in for barrels.

From 25 yds to 125 yds the 6.5 creedmoor is at a disadvantage. The .308 delivers more energy and will probably handle barriers better. Decreasing barrel life and increasing costs with no performance gain would be moving backwards.

 

[NLS7162]

Was not trying to start an .45 vs 9 bolt gun argument just throwing out options.?

I agree the barrel life will be shorter and the energy at those distances will be slightly less than the 308. Barrier penetration in a side by side was a virtual wash in the gel test we have seen and what Hornady has posted on their LE website.

The 6.5 TAP ammo was also $.10 less per round than our 308 TAP.

 

[shooter65]

308 10 twist.

 

[wade2big]

Was not trying to start an .45 vs 9 bolt gun argument just throwing out options.?

I agree the barrel life will be shorter and the energy at those distances will be slightly less than the 308. Barrier penetration in a side by side was a virtual wash in the gel test we have seen and what Hornady has posted on their LE website.

The 6.5 TAP ammo was also $.10 less per round than our 308 TAP.

That $.10 per round would almost make up for the cost of rebarreling twice as often.

 

[Rudy Gonsior]

Not sure if you would want to go this direction or not!

Our agency is usually late to the party on things, but I was able to convince the powers that be to re-barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor. With Hornady just releasing 6.5 Creedmoor TAP 147gr ELD and us needing to re-barrel soon, they agreed to let us get one done and see what we thought. We just recently got the rifle back with a 20" 1:7 twist barrel and were waiting on ammo. Ammo showed up a couple weeks ago and we have had a chance to send some rounds down range. We are getting 2610 fps and very good accuracy. Recoil is definitely less when shooting it side by side with the 308's. Our next rifle will be sent off for a 6.5 barrel this week. We are going to get a 22" put on it and compare before sending the rest in for barrels.

As somebody who trains LE snipers would stay away from 6.5CM for an LE gun. When you look at the operational environment the vast majority of LE snipers are working in (5-150ish yards) the 6.5CM doesn't offer much notable advantage over a .308Win in terms of external ballistics, even at 500yds there is hardly any practical advantage. While bullet to bullet, (like say amongst Amax's) you might think its a wash, but the .308Win has a huge selection of load options that are designed for barrier penetration that simple do not exist in 6.5CM. Lastly barrel life of the .308 is typically 2 to 3 times a 6.5, you can think about that in terms of money but also time span of performance consistency.

Send an officer through a basic course with a new gun and he is 1250-1500 rounds out of a 2000-4000 round life span. Susitanment training at a minim should be something around 100-150 an month, sooo...now we're at 2450 - 5500 rounds in the first year. This is of course with the assumption you're actually taking training seriously, which you should becasue the when the chips are down you are the man (or woman) who society is expecting to handle it, there is nobody else.

I'd much rather deploy a well trained, confident LE Sniper, with appropriately selected ammo that meets expected performance envelopes as compared to deploying a potentially ill informed sniper who has traded the minimal sustainment of his perishable skills because he equipped with a rifle chambered in a cartridge designed for mainly for maximum long range performance. A cartridge that provides half the typical barrel life of the one it's replacing, when 90% of departments are already incapable/unwilling to properly maintain current platforms due to budget limitations.

As to the OPs question 1/10/ vs. 1/11.5 ...won't be to much of a difference so go with either.

 

[Dirty D]

175SMK’s are very consistent out of a 20” 10 twist barrel, my brothers dept uses Black Hills loaded with 175’s and they perform very well. I ran 175’s and 168’s in my 10 twist and had great results with both.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

What's a 6.5 147grn like (compared to a 175 smk)

- through a windshield?
- through plate glass and 5 yrds deep into the room?

 

[bcpdshooter]

I would probably go with the 11.25. I have a 24” Rock Creek 11.25 5R. It shoots 168 and 175’s under 1/2” everyday and 1/4” most days. We are currently looking into over penetration issues and terminal ballistics. GMM’s are accurate no doubt. We are testing the 110 tap Ammo. And in testing we are looking at maintaining the same accuracy but expelling most of it’s energy within the intended target or POS causing the problem without over penetration. Accuracy wise I’m getting the same 1/2”-1/4” with the 110’s. Testing is still on going but all this to say, the 11.25 would give a larger operating range. No need to bash information just throwing something out there.
Stay sharp all, getting sporty out here!

 

[Sierra’1]

I’m currently running a 22” Rock Creek 11.25 5R on my duty rifle and while my department is a little behind with the 168gr SMK, I have shoot 175gr SMKs at 1000 yards and past out of the same rifle. The 175s preform very well out of a 11.25 twist barrel and the 168s will do well out of a 10 twist. So unless your thinking about running something around or north of 200grs,either twist rate will work equally well with the projectiles that most departments are deploying.

 

[longshot2000]

I design sniper rifles and barrels, and spec twist and steel and work with blank manufacturers and contour spinners and chambers, etc. I think as many have mentioned, there is a great deal of variability, and you have not even hit upon two of the more important. I tend to favor 1:11.25 twist for 168 - 175 gr ammo, 20" SS 416R barrels, 5R cut, but also use 1:10 twist. I am not sure I can point to either being more accurate. My bias is a little historical and better stability at very long range and some minor increase of velocity with 1:11.25. That might (exclaimation point) matter to a mil sniper, but not to LE.

Steel might also be a factor, if you weight barrel life with accuracy, we are getting slightly better accuracy with 4150 Cr-Mo-Vn steel, but a marked shorter barrel life, over 416R steel. If I had my choice for accuracy, and cost and smithing were not an issue, I would lean toward carbon steel, and cleaning and oiling after each day of shooting, and replace after 3,000 rounds. Stainless gives you better longevity, and corrosion resistance, and thus more often chosen for PRS and LE. Mil applications have varied between 4150 and 416R.

Bartlein makes a perfectly fine blank. I would also look at Criterion. We have engaged them on special barrels with 5R buttoned rifling, and if needed, their chrome lining is second to none. I also work with Kreiger, Lilja Douglas and some specialty makers. For .308, I would fully endorse their 5R cut blanks, at either twist rate.

Two areas I would focus on, once you have a great blank, is 1) chambering and smithing. This is very big. What chamber do you use, and what skills does the smith have in mating a barrel to an action. I have seen certain chambers do worlds better than others with this blank, caliber and twists. I will not get into the which right now. There are probably 3 that are perfectly great, and quite a few that are not fit for snipers and very, very accurate long-range shooting. 2) groove and land diameter in the barrel. This is a topic pretty much nobody pays attention to. For this specific barrel, if you run 1:11.125 twist AND long-range speciality ammo, i.e. 168 gr or 175 gr, then a tighter diameter produces greater accuracy at long range. We recommend tightening to .298 / .308. If you are running 1:10, OR if you are running ball ammo and not exclusively LR ammo, then the average opening to .300 / .308 is recommended.

Hope this helps.