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Gunsmithing Base screw lenght

FNARSHOOTER

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 13, 2010
297
4
64
Ga
My new base (TPS) came with 8-40 screws .I tapped the action and am about to mount the base. The screws seem short to me. They stick thru and thread into the action but there is room for longer screws. That being said I called TPS and checked lenght they are what they use on all their bases. My question is for the Gunsmiths on the site. Would anything be gained strenght wise by getting longer screws?They hold torque now but I went thru the trouble of switching to 8-40 screws I want all the strenght I can get . 5-20 x50 scope on a 300 ultra mag.
Thanks Scot
 
Re: Base screw lenght

I am not a gunsmith but I have read books on structural engineering.
Here is my take, most of the time the screws are going to be subjected to shearing, (wanting to be cut in half by the scope and rifle going two directions), longer screws won't help.
Next would be the forces subjected by the scope and base if it were to bo torn away from the rifle. Do you think that you could have a mishap where it would tear the threads out of four holes? I doubt it considering that you had them torqued down and didn't tear the threads out in the process.
You didn't really mention how deep they threaded down, as that it could still be an issue if you only caught a few threads. In the end it has more to do with your confidence level, if you think it needs longer screws, get em, there cheap.

SScott
 
Re: Base screw lenght

Weird that they're too short.

Most base screws come too long and need to be trimmed.


Buy some from Brownells and cut them to whatever length you want.

Yes of course having as much thread on thread contact as possible is a good thing.

Just be sure the front screw isn't bottoming out on the barrel tenon, and the other 3 aren't hindering the operation of the bolt.
 
Re: Base screw lenght

A rule I try to follow is thread diameter must never exceed thread depth. That said, a #8 screw is roughly .17" in diameter, so if you are exceeding that you should be fine. If you are not, it is time for longer screws.....imo.
 
Re: Base screw lenght

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/tapped-thread-depth-strength-question-153783/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dsergison
without all this math. which i despise. i will just tell you what caterpillar standard is.
1 to 1.2 x Dia in steel or cast iron. 1.5 - 2 x Dia in amuminum or other softer metals.
there really is nothing that requres more than 1.5 x as that will generally break even grade 8 hardware before pulling out. 2x if your really worried, and the material is really crappy.</div></div>
8-40 minor diameter is at least .138"
8-40 pitch is 1/40 = .025"
So maximum strength will be between .138" to .165" of engagement, and that is between ~ 5.5 turns and 7 turns.
That would be good for ~ 45 inch pounds dry, 33 inch pounds with oil or greases, and 23 inch pounds with wax.
For fewer turns of engagement, proportionally less torque.
When I count turns, I always get a different number screwing in than screwing out. They are off by one turn.
You can buy 8-40 screws, not at the hardware store or Enco, but at Brownells
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=570/Product/SIGHT-BASE-SCREW-KIT
 
Re: Base screw lenght

I always try to have my bolts thread in 2x the dia.(thats with alum. on motorcycles) These bolts may be 1x but its going to be close . I understand the shear factor in this case outweighs the pull force .This base has a recoil lug so I feel better about shear.Its just the fact that there is room for longer threads and I wanted other input as I am always guilty of overkill. Badger recomends using lock tight to bed the base(stops stuff from creeping under) and can't hurt on holding. I even thought about 2 roll pins between the screws to help as the bolt holes in the base are oval to allow for full contact with lug.I will do the math and adjust as needed. Thanks you all for your input.
Scot
 
Re: Base screw lenght

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not a gunsmith but I have read books on structural engineering.
Here is my take, most of the time the screws are going to be subjected to shearing, (wanting to be cut in half by the scope and rifle going two directions), longer screws won't help.
Next would be the forces subjected by the scope and base if it were to bo torn away from the rifle. Do you think that you could have a mishap where it would tear the threads out of four holes? I doubt it considering that you had them torqued down and didn't tear the threads out in the process.
You didn't really mention how deep they threaded down, as that it could still be an issue if you only caught a few threads. In the end it has more to do with your confidence level, if you think it needs longer screws, get em, there cheap.
SScott </div></div>
There are other engineers on this forum, like bohem and Jon A, that should straighten this out, not me, but I have waited, and nothing so far.
A 300 Ultra Mag from Remington weighs 7.3 pounds.
A 5x20x50 scope from SWAFA weighs 31.39 oz = 1.96 pounds
A 220 gr bullet @7000 gr/lb = .0314 pounds
A 300 Ultra with 220 gr bullet and 97.6 gr H870 will have peak acceleration per Quickload between .453 ms and 1.052 ms and the bullet velocity will change from 453 fps to 2356 fps.
Change in velocity of bullet = 1903 fps
change in time = .599 ms
Total weight of rifle and scope = 9.36 pounds
Change in Rifle and scope velocity = [change in bullet velocity][bullet weight /rifle and scope weight] = [1903 fps][.0314 pounds/9.36 pounds] = 6.4 fps
Scope mass = 1.96 pounds / 32.2 ft/ss = .0609 slugs
Force = Mass Acceleration = .0609 slugs 6.4 fps/.599 ms = 650 pounds
If that shear is shared by 4 screws, then 162 pounds shear/ screw.
If screws have a minor diameter of .138".
Area = pi r squared = 3.14 [.138/2]^2 = .015 sq in
Shear stress = F/Area = 162 lb/ .015 sq in = 10,800 psi
American made cap screws have a tensile strength of ~ 180,000 psi tensile strength.
Shear strength should be ~ 60% of that = 108,000 psi shear strength.
It would seem that the shear on the screws at 10.8k psi is only 10% of the 108 kpsi they are capable of.

But that is not what is really going on.
The screws are torqued to half their tensile strength.
That clamps the mount to the receiver with a force of thousand of pounds. There is a high co efficient of friction between the mount and the receiver. They never slip. If they never slip, the screws never see the shear forces, friction between mount and receiver see that shear.
 
Re: Base screw lenght

Well I measured how much the supplied screws stuck out past the bottom of the base and they measured .139 for all 4 .G.T.G. I cleaned everything with brakecleen and bedded the base with red locltite gel and red lock gel on the threads torqued to 30 inch pounds. I feel the base is secure.
Scot
 
Re: Base screw lenght

Be sure to tell your smith you used red locktite on the threads next time you drop the rifle off for work.

I've never seen a reason to use locktite on a scope base. Especially with 8-40s. 8-40s tightened down properly will not come out until you want them out. I know some companies say to use blue locktite, but Ive never seen a properly tightened screw back out.

And <span style="font-weight: bold">Red</span> locktite has no business anywhere on a rifle in my opinion.
I made that mistake <span style="text-decoration: underline">once</span>, and learned from it.