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Bearing Surface to Twist Rate

FluffytheCat

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 17, 2014
7
1
Estherville, IA
Well hello, new guy here. Long long time reader, first time poster.

Allow me to start off by putting this in probably the wrong spot. Not really a gunsmithing question and its more about interior ballistics than exterior so.....

It has always been my understanding that twist rate should be determined less by the weight of the bullet and more on how much of the bullet is in contact with the rifling (bearing surface.) I understand that bullet length is directly related to weight (depending on material), but i think having more surface area in contact with the rifling would warrant a slower twist rate because of a more positive engagement with the rifling itself and less need for a faster twist to get the bullet to the correct RPM that is required to stabilize a bullet of whatever size it may be.

I don't have the astro-freako, engineering mind to just come up with a crazy math problem and figure this out on my own. :confused::confused:

Does this make sense to anyone?

I guess the whole "this many grains means this fast a twist" just never made sense to me.

FluffytheCat
 
Sounds reasonable, but its beyond my MathFu as well.

Welcome to the Hide.
 
Twist rates are chosen to aerodynamically stabilize the bullet and have little to do with bearing surface. The purpose of the twist is to spin the bullet to take advantage of gyroscopic forces to counteract the aerodynamic forces causing an overturning moment that will tumble the bullet...it has to do with the aerodynamic center of pressure and the center of gravity. The longer the bullet, the greater the overturning forces acting on it, and the more spin you need to keep it from tumbling. Thus you need more twist to stabilize a longer bullet regardless of the length of the actual bearing surface.

The reason we relate the required twist to stabilize a bullet to a weight is that naturally heavier bullets for caliber must be longer, and because they are longer they need more spin to stabilize. So really it is the shape, not the weight, that drives twist rate requirements. Most people don't know how long a certain bullet is, they just know the weight and correlate the twist to that.
 
You don't think the bearing surface would be a factor in determining an accurate twist rate?

Not very directly, no.

Low drag long range rifle bullets tend to have a long skinny nose, which places the center of mass somewhere towards the back of the bullet, meanwhile the center of pressure is somewhere up by the nose. The distance between these two points creates a "moment arm" that tried to overturn the bullet, because the aerodynamic pressure is acting on the center of pressure.

So, "length" of bullet IS a more direct metric than "weight" for determining needed rifling twist, but an even MORE direct metric yet is distance between center of mass and center of pressure.

A bullet with a really long bearing surface will TEND to have less overturning torque because that long bearing surface will generally result in a shorter ogive (assuming both bullets are same diameter and very similar weight). Thus, that bullet with the long bearing surface will tend to require less twist for stabilization.

Lastly - you can safely assume zero-slip between bullet and riflling, regardless of bearing surface length.
 
Not very directly, no.

Low drag long range rifle bullets tend to have a long skinny nose, which places the center of mass somewhere towards the back of the bullet, meanwhile the center of pressure is somewhere up by the nose. The distance between these two points creates a "moment arm" that tried to overturn the bullet, because the aerodynamic pressure is acting on the center of pressure.

So, "length" of bullet IS a more direct metric than "weight" for determining needed rifling twist, but an even MORE direct metric yet is distance between center of mass and center of pressure.

A bullet with a really long bearing surface will TEND to have less overturning torque because that long bearing surface will generally result in a shorter ogive (assuming both bullets are same diameter and very similar weight). Thus, that bullet with the long bearing surface will tend to require less twist for stabilization.

Lastly - you can safely assume zero-slip between bullet and riflling, regardless of bearing surface length.

Well said HodgdonExtreme. To the OP, if your are interested in interior/exterior ballistics, I would strongly encourage you to read Bryan Litz books, if you haven't already. He just released a new book, Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting, and discusses twist rate and effects on speed, accuracy, drop etc with different variables (including bullet weight). I don't believe he directly discusses Bering surface effects on stabilization in the most recent book, but the first book does to an extent.

I agree with HE that bearing surface will have little to no practical relevance on actual RPM of bullet OTHER than any differences in velocity as a result of higher bearing surface vs lower bearing surface projectiles (if any exists). In theory, if bullet A comes out of rifle slower than bullet B, their will be a lower actual spin rate on B. This is predictable from velocity to velocity though and if you were to launch bullet A and B at the same muzzle velocity, you should see the same RPM.

Just to be clear (in case we misread your original question) I would be sure that you say "spin rate" when referring to bullet spin and "Twist rate" when referring to barrel for clarity, as they are not the same.
 
Some times the formulas for computing twist don't equate to reality. When I was building a 260 rem, I was talking with Boots Obermeyer about the bullets I wanted to shoot out of one of his barrels. I wanted to use the heaviest "match" bullets available, mostly the 142 SMK, and the 144 Lapua.

Conventional wisdom said that with the velocity I would be using, I would need a twist rate around 1-7.5 to 1-8. I used the rifling computation tools I could find, and they all were in pretty close agreement that I needed a faster twist rate. Mr. Obermeyer told me that he had great success with the 1-8.75 twist rate, and recommended I go with that.

Not being fool enough to argue with someone having the experience of Boots Obermeyer, I bought the barrel he recommended. Mr. Obermeyer was (of course) right, and the 1-8.75 twist rate shoots fabulously.

Some times real world experience trumps all the computation I spent so much time figuring out.
 
Fantastic info guys! I generally tend to shy away from "ar15.com" type forums and stay with these for that reason. So much knowledge to had here. I know my ballistics fairly well, but when it comes to these really specific parts of it im usually at a loss.
Im just a 21 year old praire dog hunter....i dont have enough time/money/experience trying different loads, twists, barrels, bullets etc. Its great to be informed by people with more field experience than the armchair patriots that "know everything."

~Fluffy
 
Just take a look at the twist rate, 8.5 - 8 twist needed for this 197 grain bullet, this bullet is really long. The bearing surface on these bullets are less due to the drive bands. GS CUSTOM BULLETS - 308197SP204 Technical Data
So the way I see it is, the longer the bullet the faster the twist needed to stabilize it. If the twist is to fast the bullet will just keep going and going past the target if you are shooting past 500 yards and beyond. This twist rate calc really helped me to understand what happens with any bullet. http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
 
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Well calculating bullet twist rate has always confused and fascinated me. Figured id say what i thought and see what the more veteran shooters thoughts were. It's like ballistics school here but free!:cool:
 
There was a recent article (within the past 4 months) in one of the many gun magazines I subscribe to that dealt with very fast twist rates. The summary of the author is that really fast twist (faster than what we think we need) really doesn't do as much harm to accuracy as an overly slow twist does.

For example, we usually think a 190-220 grain 30 caliber bullet at around 2750-3000 fps will require a twist of at least 1-10. The author played around with much faster twist rates and still got decent accuracy.

But I don't have the money to buy extra barrels just to test out twist rates like that. I'll rely on people who have tried them out.
 
But I don't have the money to buy extra barrels just to test out twist rates like that. I'll rely on people who have tried them out.

Pretty much the situation im in. I make rifle barrels all day....just cant afford rifles to slap em on...or ammo for that matter :mad:
 
If bearing surface length were important to stability, why would we bother shooting diabolo pellets through rifled airgun barrels?

pelletSamples.jpg


Surely something with such a negligible bearing surface couldn't possibly engage the rifling efficiently?

But it does. Because, as HodgdonExtreme notes, there is no slippage. In part because rotational speed does not instantaneously go from zero to 150,000 RPMs. Even with a long-throated barrel, bullet velocity will ony be a couple hundred fps when it first strikes the rifling. Which works out about 200 revs/second in a 1:12 barrel, maybe 350 revs/second in a 1:7. One inch down the barrel and the bullet is not yet moving 1000 fps but it is fully engraved, yet it barely has rotated 50° since the primer broke (or even just 30° in the case of a 1:12).

So I think you're radically overestimating how traumatic it is to the bullet.

Your second mistake is believing bullet weight has anything to do with stability. A common misunderstanding that stems from the way we tend to talk about bullets.

No one goes to Gander Mountain to buy a box of 1.215" SMKs, we go for a box of 168-grainers. Bullet length doesn't enter the considerations. So we take for granted the reason a 175-gr SMK is harder to stabilize than the 168 is because it's heavier (by 6 grains). But that's wrong. It's harder to stabilize because it's longer (by 0.051"). Even though it's lighter than either SMK, the 155-gr Lapua Scenar is harder to stabilize than even the 175 because it's longer, 1.291" (thanks to an exquisitely streamlined 10.68 ogive number).

So bullet weight isn't what determines minimum twist. Weight distribution, however, is king dog shit.

But you're in good company, Fluffy. We all know bullets need to be spun to be stable, but very few shooters understand why. What specifically is it that's wrong with bullets that keeps them from being stable in the first place? Understanding that, IMHO, is the key to understanding every other aspect of bullet stability.

Truth is, we deliberately fuck 'em up. It's what bullet designers do to bullets in the interest of aerodynamic efficiency that makes them unstable to start with.

I already introduced the subject of airgun pellets, and this is an apt point to get back to them. Here's a shot of the cross-section of a bunch of diabolo pellets:

jsinn9.jpg


Unlike high-velocity bullets, diabolo pellets inherently have positive longitudinal stability. They're perfectly stable, the pointy end remains pointed downrange, whether they're being spun or not. You could throw a handful of them into the air, and provided you threw them high enough, every last one would strike the ground nose-first. Every kid who ever owned a Crosman Powermaster 760 pump BB gun knows pellets don't need no stinkin' spin. Yes, they're more accurate if they're fired from a rifled barrel, just like an arrow flies truer if the flethcings have just a touch of 'helical' to them, but that's a completely separate issue from stability.

If you think about it, the general layout of the diabolo pellet is a lot like this thing:

o05mis.gif


It's a badminton birdie (or a shuttlecock, if you live in San Francisco). No matter how hard you whack one of these things, regardless of the angle you hit it from, within a foot of it leaving the face of the racket, it's always back to flying nose-first (although sometimes with a little accompanying oscillation). It has tremendously strong positive longitudinal stability.

Why?

Because of weight distribution. Remember me writing earlier that weight distribution is king dog shit? This is my proof. Or to be more comprehensive, I should say it's the relationship of weight distribution to drag distribution.

In the case of both the diabolo pellet and the badminton birdie, the designer crammed all the weight he could as near to the nose as he could. And then he added some fiddly bits at the ass end to create a lot of drag, way, way in the back.

Static stability is a wresting match between these two forces. Weight distribution versus drag distribution. A moving object that is traveling with its Center of Mass (CG) in front of its Center of Aerodynamic Pressures (CP) tends to have positive longitudinal stability. The nose naturally wants to continue pointing forward. In a sense, it's like the object is most stable if the CP can get behind the CG to hide from the wind.

But if CG isn't ahead of CP, it will tend to have negative longitudinal stability. The CP will tend to win that wrestling match, in which case it turns the whole contraption around so it can be in its preferred orientation, with the CG between it and the wind. Imagine shooting an arrow fletchings-first. It will swap ends so fast, all you will see is a blur. If that.

24lsy3d.jpg

What's true of bullets is equally true of rockets

Both of the projectiles I've been talking about have tremendous positive longitudinal stability, but their ballistic coefficients suck. Which isn't really a handicap at their typical working velocities.


Which brings me back to high speed bullets. For centerfire rifle bullets, this whole CP-CG wrestling match thing causes two distinct problems.

The first problem is that the CP is always going to be very near the nose of the bullet. That's the part that's doing the lion's share of the aerodynamic labor, boring a hole in the wind for the remainder of the bullet to pass through. And the faster an object is moving, the harder it has to work, and the more pronounced this tendency becomes. And we want out bullets to be very, very fast. So there's no getting around that, we've just got to deal with it.

The second problem is what you have to do to a bullet in order to streamline it. Remember me writing that we're deliberately fucking up out bullets? This is it.

We've already established two key points. #1, it blows you projectile's longitudinal stability to hell and gone if it doesn't fly CG-first. And #2, the nature of driving a bullet at supersonic velocity necessarily and unavoidably means that the CP will be manifested real damn close to the nose.

And now we're going to really screw things up by deliberately moving the bullet's CG further aft, further away from the meplat. Because that's an unavoidable side-effect to tapering the nose of the bullet down to a point. That leaves less material on the pointy end, so the CG has to go the other way.

zuhzm9.gif

Image from "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting," by Bryan Litz

This is what comes from tapering the nose. CP is ahead of CG, way ahead, exactly the opposite configuration of the diabolo pellet and the badminton birdie. And we know CP-before-CG is not going to have positive longitudinal stability. CP was always going to be ahead of CP anyway, because even if the bullet was a blunt-ended cylinder, CP was always going to be manifested in the upwind end, and CG always was going to be slap in the middle. The tapering just made the problem worse.

Long story short, that is what's wrong with bullets, why we have to spin them to make them stable. CP-before-CG means it needs an external force applied to overcome the tendency of the CP to run back behind the CG and hide from the wind. And the shooter's external force of choice is angular momentum, AKA gyroscopic force.


Notice the arrow on that last diagram, the one pointing out the distance between the two centers of pressure? That's called a "moment arm." CP can use that moment arm like a lever to win its wrestling match against CG. And as we all know, the longer the lever, the greater the lever-age, and the more force that can be applied. As a bullet of the same shape gets longer (and heavier), the longer this moment arm gets. And the more leverage the CG has. And the more un-stable the bullet becomes.

So that's why a bullet is unstable to begin with, and why the instability increases as the bullet gets longer. It's got nothing to do with bearing surface length, and nothing directly to do with bullet weight, but everything to do with weight distribution.

High velocity bullets are statically unstable because we build them so they'll fly CP-before-CG.
And whenever CP flies before CG, the longer CP-CG moment arm is, the worse the instability becomes.

And as we've touched on in other threads, if you shoot the same bullet as in the diagram backwards, ass-end first, the CG won't move but the CP will change ends. So CP probably still will be in the lead, but the moment arm will be much shorter because the designer moved the CG nearer to the bullet's base when we created the ogive. And the shorter the moment arm, the less un-stable the bullet is. So at any given rate of twist, the bullet will be more stable if fired backwards. A handy trick if you're into loading subsonic.
 
Twist rates are chosen to aerodynamically stabilize the bullet and have little to do with bearing surface. The purpose of the twist is to spin the bullet to take advantage of gyroscopic forces to counteract the aerodynamic forces causing an overturning moment that will tumble the bullet...it has to do with the aerodynamic center of pressure and the center of gravity. The longer the bullet, the greater the overturning forces acting on it, and the more spin you need to keep it from tumbling. Thus you need more twist to stabilize a longer bullet regardless of the length of the actual bearing surface.

The reason we relate the required twist to stabilize a bullet to a weight is that naturally heavier bullets for caliber must be longer, and because they are longer they need more spin to stabilize. So really it is the shape, not the weight, that drives twist rate requirements. Most people don't know how long a certain bullet is, they just know the weight and correlate the twist to that.
I agree, this is a very good response. I take exception with one part. When you state, " ...Naturally heavier bullets for caliber must be longer", this is only true as long as you discussing bullets made from the same material (or better yet of the same density), for example the tungsten core bullets can be, and are much shorter than the same weight copper jacket/lead core bullet of the same weight.
 
Thanks pawprint that assumption wasnt clear in my post. In fact, depending on the construction, even bullets of the same materials wont necessarily follow that rule such as the 175smk and the lapua 155gr.