I am debating whether or not to have my smith bed my AICS chassis. I have a stiller predator chambered in 6x47L sitting in it. It shoots half MOA out to 400 yards. I havent shot it any further than this yet. Do most folks bed the AICS stocks or run them the way they come?
Gunsmithing Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
I never bed mine. I'd pull the action out of the stock all the time and it always shot the same.
I never bed mine. I'd pull the action out of the stock all the time and it always shot the same.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Most run them as they are. There have been some (I think HateCA?) who have tested before and after and found very negligible benefits to bedding the chassis.
Most run them as they are. There have been some (I think HateCA?) who have tested before and after and found very negligible benefits to bedding the chassis.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mildot326</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Troops, just a quick question about the stiller action.Do you order the action in either a repeater or single shot action?
Mines going in a AICS stock. </div></div>
get the repeater if you plan on magazine feeding such as from an aics.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mildot326</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Troops, just a quick question about the stiller action.Do you order the action in either a repeater or single shot action?
Mines going in a AICS stock. </div></div>
get the repeater if you plan on magazine feeding such as from an aics.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
I would've said no; untill I spoke w/ another member on here. Apperantly there maybe some coldbore issues!
I would've said no; untill I spoke w/ another member on here. Apperantly there maybe some coldbore issues!
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
i plan on hitting my cold bore shot at my next match and mine is not bedded
i plan on hitting my cold bore shot at my next match and mine is not bedded
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
This ain't gospel, so don't kill the messenger; I think Terry Cross skim beds AICS stocks sometimes. Maybe he will chime in and tell why he would/would not, and when/when not. Not sure about HateCA, but if he chimes in, that's awesome too.
And just to think out loud a moment, would it cause problems to the bedding if one removed/replaced the action and stock frequently? Just thinking... so I guess that's a maybe. Duke.
This ain't gospel, so don't kill the messenger; I think Terry Cross skim beds AICS stocks sometimes. Maybe he will chime in and tell why he would/would not, and when/when not. Not sure about HateCA, but if he chimes in, that's awesome too.
And just to think out loud a moment, would it cause problems to the bedding if one removed/replaced the action and stock frequently? Just thinking... so I guess that's a maybe. Duke.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
If its shooting half moa, I wouldn't bother, as you are probably not going to see a measurable improvement.
But then again, I've bedded the AICS's I've had. Probably won't if I get another.
If its shooting half moa, I wouldn't bother, as you are probably not going to see a measurable improvement.
But then again, I've bedded the AICS's I've had. Probably won't if I get another.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
The only way you're going to tell if it does any good is to just bed it but then it's already done and you don't need to worry about it.
I agree if the rifle shoots to your liking don't bother, if it ain’t broke why fix it? I have done several before and after test and just couldn't find any measurable difference.
There are some that say they found a measurable difference but one could also argue that something else was changed to fix whatever accuracy issues they were having before the bedding, like loose scope rings, loose base, improperly torqued action screws and so on. So really are you really fixing an accuracy issue when bedding an AICS, or did you fix something you didn’t know about?
The only way you're going to tell if it does any good is to just bed it but then it's already done and you don't need to worry about it.
I agree if the rifle shoots to your liking don't bother, if it ain’t broke why fix it? I have done several before and after test and just couldn't find any measurable difference.
There are some that say they found a measurable difference but one could also argue that something else was changed to fix whatever accuracy issues they were having before the bedding, like loose scope rings, loose base, improperly torqued action screws and so on. So really are you really fixing an accuracy issue when bedding an AICS, or did you fix something you didn’t know about?
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">care to elaborate? </div></div>
First of all I am not a smith!!! I am just passing on info! Evidently problems of different materials and different expansion rates causing possible stress!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">care to elaborate? </div></div>
First of all I am not a smith!!! I am just passing on info! Evidently problems of different materials and different expansion rates causing possible stress!
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">care to elaborate? </div></div>
First of all I am not a smith!!! I am just passing on info! Evidently problems of different materials and different expansion rates causing possible stress! </div></div>
different materials like steel and marine-tex/devcon or different materials like steel and aluminum?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">care to elaborate? </div></div>
First of all I am not a smith!!! I am just passing on info! Evidently problems of different materials and different expansion rates causing possible stress! </div></div>
different materials like steel and marine-tex/devcon or different materials like steel and aluminum?
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steel and aluminum; I believe! </div></div>
i was being sarcastic.
i am sure that steel and marine-tex or devcon don't expand at the same rate just like steel and aluminum don't expand at the same rate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steel and aluminum; I believe! </div></div>
i was being sarcastic.
i am sure that steel and marine-tex or devcon don't expand at the same rate just like steel and aluminum don't expand at the same rate.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
What torque is suggested for the AICS chassie? I think my action is around 50" pounds. Lee
What torque is suggested for the AICS chassie? I think my action is around 50" pounds. Lee
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Damnit, I used to know off the top of my head-I'm wanting to say around 54 in/lbs, but the real spec's in Newtons or some crap like that Iblieve!
Damnit, I used to know off the top of my head-I'm wanting to say around 54 in/lbs, but the real spec's in Newtons or some crap like that Iblieve!
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its 65 inch pounds </div></div>
Nope 6 newton meter = 53.104 474 606 inch pounds to be exact.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its 65 inch pounds </div></div>
Nope 6 newton meter = 53.104 474 606 inch pounds to be exact.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
whats this newton stuff? tell me straight up! What inch pounds to i need. Thanks fellas! Lee
whats this newton stuff? tell me straight up! What inch pounds to i need. Thanks fellas! Lee
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Any work done is energy. Energy is heat and in the SI system it is measured in Joules which can be converted to BTU's. A Newton is equal to a Joule when measuring a rotational force applied to a 1 meter long pole (arm)and basicaly all of this metric units. Now the mud puddle has been stired juts get a inch pound torque wrench and set it at 53 inch pounds which is the correct conversion from 6 Newtons to inch pounds.
1 Newton= .74 ft/lb
12 inch pounds = 1 ft/lb
Any work done is energy. Energy is heat and in the SI system it is measured in Joules which can be converted to BTU's. A Newton is equal to a Joule when measuring a rotational force applied to a 1 meter long pole (arm)and basicaly all of this metric units. Now the mud puddle has been stired juts get a inch pound torque wrench and set it at 53 inch pounds which is the correct conversion from 6 Newtons to inch pounds.
1 Newton= .74 ft/lb
12 inch pounds = 1 ft/lb
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
All the AICS that I've built on in the past have been bedded. Many included bedding about 1.5" or so of barrel ahead of the receiver. On those, I use a custom aluminum skeleton to support the bedding when the skins are off the AICS frame.
Almost every one of the rifles I built would have shot just fine without bedding the chassis. However I bedded every one of them.
I like to do it because it is extra insurance for not only making sure everything is perfect with the action/stock mate but I am convinced that it gives superior performance regarding zero retention when the rifle is transported/flown/banged around a truck/bounced against a wall, . . . . . etc. (sees consistently hard use)
I am convinced that Accuracy International believes the same thing themselves. Why else would they glue in their AW/AWP series guns instead the less expensive option of just bolting them into a Chassis type setup.
So yes, my guns could probably be toted to the bench and perform really well for groups if they weren't bedded. I just don't think they would be as consistent on holding zero in the event they weren't treated nice.
Some of you are throwing torque numbers around for the stock bolts. When I bed a chassis or McMillan, I do not use specific torque values on my rifles or test fire customer rifles. I do own 2 very nice torque wrenches and do ship customer or agency rifles to exact torque spec when requested. I believe that when a bedding job is done correctly, it can be pretty forgiving. I have on numerous demos in front of groups of people, loosened the stock bolts and purposefully mis-torqued them (Ex: 40"/lb on front and 60"/lb on rear). The rifle is then immediately shot and P.O.I. is spot on. Then break the stock bolts loose again, and re-torque with opposite settings (Ex: 60"/lb on front and 40"/lb on the rear), and immediately shoot the rifle again with no P.O.I. shift.
Bedding them correctly is not complicated. To go to all the attention to details and <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">not </span></span>do it on a full blown custom build would be missing the boat in my opinion. I am not knocking those that do not. There are some very good smiths on this and other sites that do not trouble with bedding the AICS and they are convinced it is good to go. I respect that. I am just sharing my beliefs and opinion and we know every asshole has one. I must be a double asshole because I sometimes have more than one opinion.
I am not using any magic techniques or secret squirrel mojo to bed the guns. I'll bet most of the shops out there that do quality work may also see similar results as far as their bedded rifles not being sensitive to specific torque.
When it comes to shooting, ANYTHING that we can do more consistenly in our equipment or shooting technique will help in the long run. If many of you are using a torque wrench on your stock bolts, good for you. Attention to such things means you are watching all the other little parts and fittings. That can never hurt. I am just saying that when done correctly, proper bedding buys you some performance insurance and adds value to your already expensive rifle.
QUALIFYING NOTE: I think that anytime someone is running a straight metal to metal chassis, they should always repeat their torque to exact settings. Especially with crooked ass Rem M700 receiver exteriors. Almost all of the custom receivers are straight and therefore more forgiving in that department.
We are playing with a beddingless mounting block for the M.A.C.S. to meet certain requirements set forth by others. When it is completed, I will want all users to use a specific torque setting for that insurance since I believe it will not be as forgiving as examples listed above.
Hope this explains my thoughts on this. Don't take anything written above as THE way to do anything. It is just my opinion.
Everybody have a safe weekend.
Terry
All the AICS that I've built on in the past have been bedded. Many included bedding about 1.5" or so of barrel ahead of the receiver. On those, I use a custom aluminum skeleton to support the bedding when the skins are off the AICS frame.
Almost every one of the rifles I built would have shot just fine without bedding the chassis. However I bedded every one of them.
I like to do it because it is extra insurance for not only making sure everything is perfect with the action/stock mate but I am convinced that it gives superior performance regarding zero retention when the rifle is transported/flown/banged around a truck/bounced against a wall, . . . . . etc. (sees consistently hard use)
I am convinced that Accuracy International believes the same thing themselves. Why else would they glue in their AW/AWP series guns instead the less expensive option of just bolting them into a Chassis type setup.
So yes, my guns could probably be toted to the bench and perform really well for groups if they weren't bedded. I just don't think they would be as consistent on holding zero in the event they weren't treated nice.
Some of you are throwing torque numbers around for the stock bolts. When I bed a chassis or McMillan, I do not use specific torque values on my rifles or test fire customer rifles. I do own 2 very nice torque wrenches and do ship customer or agency rifles to exact torque spec when requested. I believe that when a bedding job is done correctly, it can be pretty forgiving. I have on numerous demos in front of groups of people, loosened the stock bolts and purposefully mis-torqued them (Ex: 40"/lb on front and 60"/lb on rear). The rifle is then immediately shot and P.O.I. is spot on. Then break the stock bolts loose again, and re-torque with opposite settings (Ex: 60"/lb on front and 40"/lb on the rear), and immediately shoot the rifle again with no P.O.I. shift.
Bedding them correctly is not complicated. To go to all the attention to details and <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">not </span></span>do it on a full blown custom build would be missing the boat in my opinion. I am not knocking those that do not. There are some very good smiths on this and other sites that do not trouble with bedding the AICS and they are convinced it is good to go. I respect that. I am just sharing my beliefs and opinion and we know every asshole has one. I must be a double asshole because I sometimes have more than one opinion.
I am not using any magic techniques or secret squirrel mojo to bed the guns. I'll bet most of the shops out there that do quality work may also see similar results as far as their bedded rifles not being sensitive to specific torque.
When it comes to shooting, ANYTHING that we can do more consistenly in our equipment or shooting technique will help in the long run. If many of you are using a torque wrench on your stock bolts, good for you. Attention to such things means you are watching all the other little parts and fittings. That can never hurt. I am just saying that when done correctly, proper bedding buys you some performance insurance and adds value to your already expensive rifle.
QUALIFYING NOTE: I think that anytime someone is running a straight metal to metal chassis, they should always repeat their torque to exact settings. Especially with crooked ass Rem M700 receiver exteriors. Almost all of the custom receivers are straight and therefore more forgiving in that department.
We are playing with a beddingless mounting block for the M.A.C.S. to meet certain requirements set forth by others. When it is completed, I will want all users to use a specific torque setting for that insurance since I believe it will not be as forgiving as examples listed above.
Hope this explains my thoughts on this. Don't take anything written above as THE way to do anything. It is just my opinion.
Everybody have a safe weekend.
Terry
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
+1 on Terry's comment regarding the crooked exteriors on the Rem M700 recievers. This is something you have to be aware of/check for as they seem worse in this area than they used to be.
+1 on Terry's comment regarding the crooked exteriors on the Rem M700 recievers. This is something you have to be aware of/check for as they seem worse in this area than they used to be.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its 65 inch pounds </div></div>
Nope 6 newton meter = 53.104 474 606 inch pounds to be exact. </div></div>
I thought I was close with 54 inlbs. Thanks Randy.
The primary reason in my opinion not to bed would be to run different barreled actions in the same AICS (which would be why I probably won't bed the next one if I get one) or for resale value.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HateCA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its 65 inch pounds </div></div>
Nope 6 newton meter = 53.104 474 606 inch pounds to be exact. </div></div>
I thought I was close with 54 inlbs. Thanks Randy.
The primary reason in my opinion not to bed would be to run different barreled actions in the same AICS (which would be why I probably won't bed the next one if I get one) or for resale value.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
+1 on sobrbiker's thoughts.
i would not spend close to $1K on a stock that needed bedding. i spend that much on them because they don't need bedding.
my AICS stocks are part of my "modular" weapons systems. like having common scope rails to allow changing optics at a whim, i can drop different barreled actions into my stocks to meet different needs.
bedding would not allow this to happen.
just my thoughts.
+1 on sobrbiker's thoughts.
i would not spend close to $1K on a stock that needed bedding. i spend that much on them because they don't need bedding.
my AICS stocks are part of my "modular" weapons systems. like having common scope rails to allow changing optics at a whim, i can drop different barreled actions into my stocks to meet different needs.
bedding would not allow this to happen.
just my thoughts.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Hi we just bedded one here the problem was int he rear of the action wher the takedown screw is. When the action was sitting in the stock the tang was only touching in front of the rear takedown screw the relief in the stock in the middle is to wide in my opinion. when the rear take down screw was tensioned the action was loading up like a big spring. the rifle shot OK with a barrel without a break on it but when the break was fitted the forward pressure on the barrel caused massive groups bedding under the tang fixed the problem. If you have a look at most AICS stocks around the rear hole the actions rarley mate to the rear of the hole. If they did i agrea that bedding would not be required but all the ones i have seen have impaired some sort of tourque into the action and that is not a good thing. the front mating surfaces including the recoil lug seat are perfect i just cant see how they have suck a large relief under the action as the thin tang on the rem action is thinner than the cutout. most rem clones actualy work better because they have a wider tang.
So theis one we just bedded under the tang to stop the action bending it was almost 40 thou that the action droped in the tang when we machined under it for bedding to be applied. the action now tensions perfectly into the stock without bedding the whole stock.
I know their is a massive following with these stocks and some rifles realy shoot well in them but like most one size fits all type things their has to be some that just dont work as expected, think about it all of the rem actions out there with huge diferences in tolerences over the years and then the stocks have to have a tolerence to work with. And then think of all the stocks with alloy bedding systems in them like HS and B&C as examples most of us skim bed those actions aswell to get the best from them.
They will all work without touching them and for someone that wants to swap and change actions into one stock it would be best not to touch any of them but if you afre building up a rifle and want it to be the most accurate it can bed it and remove any doubt.
Another cool thing to do if a full bed is being done is to machine 2 small plates and screw them to the sides of the chassis under the skins over the recoil lug cutout. this allows the rifle to have bedding up the sides of the lug to make sure it locates every time it is placed into the stock and holds the bedding compound into a solid position.
Hi we just bedded one here the problem was int he rear of the action wher the takedown screw is. When the action was sitting in the stock the tang was only touching in front of the rear takedown screw the relief in the stock in the middle is to wide in my opinion. when the rear take down screw was tensioned the action was loading up like a big spring. the rifle shot OK with a barrel without a break on it but when the break was fitted the forward pressure on the barrel caused massive groups bedding under the tang fixed the problem. If you have a look at most AICS stocks around the rear hole the actions rarley mate to the rear of the hole. If they did i agrea that bedding would not be required but all the ones i have seen have impaired some sort of tourque into the action and that is not a good thing. the front mating surfaces including the recoil lug seat are perfect i just cant see how they have suck a large relief under the action as the thin tang on the rem action is thinner than the cutout. most rem clones actualy work better because they have a wider tang.
So theis one we just bedded under the tang to stop the action bending it was almost 40 thou that the action droped in the tang when we machined under it for bedding to be applied. the action now tensions perfectly into the stock without bedding the whole stock.
I know their is a massive following with these stocks and some rifles realy shoot well in them but like most one size fits all type things their has to be some that just dont work as expected, think about it all of the rem actions out there with huge diferences in tolerences over the years and then the stocks have to have a tolerence to work with. And then think of all the stocks with alloy bedding systems in them like HS and B&C as examples most of us skim bed those actions aswell to get the best from them.
They will all work without touching them and for someone that wants to swap and change actions into one stock it would be best not to touch any of them but if you afre building up a rifle and want it to be the most accurate it can bed it and remove any doubt.
Another cool thing to do if a full bed is being done is to machine 2 small plates and screw them to the sides of the chassis under the skins over the recoil lug cutout. this allows the rifle to have bedding up the sides of the lug to make sure it locates every time it is placed into the stock and holds the bedding compound into a solid position.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Here's my old R700 in an AICS I no longer have with not torque on the action screws:
Here's what happens when the rear action screw was torqued (can you say "boing!?"):
Terry mentioned bedding forward of the recoil lug using a jig to hold bedding in place (as Bill alluded to as well), here's my low-tech solution, 2 alum plates c-clamped in place:
<span style="font-style: italic">(sorry for the bad pics, they were taken by phone before reasonably priced phones had good camera's).</span>
I bedded mine as such after reading Terry's input on this very question a couple years ago.
I didn't gather data on performance before and after, and I also trust Randy's take that he's tested and hasn't found appreciable differences. Bill's experience with the brake is interesting however.....
Here's my old R700 in an AICS I no longer have with not torque on the action screws:
Here's what happens when the rear action screw was torqued (can you say "boing!?"):
Terry mentioned bedding forward of the recoil lug using a jig to hold bedding in place (as Bill alluded to as well), here's my low-tech solution, 2 alum plates c-clamped in place:
<span style="font-style: italic">(sorry for the bad pics, they were taken by phone before reasonably priced phones had good camera's).</span>
I bedded mine as such after reading Terry's input on this very question a couple years ago.
I didn't gather data on performance before and after, and I also trust Randy's take that he's tested and hasn't found appreciable differences. Bill's experience with the brake is interesting however.....
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
great pic of the tang being pulled down becaus the baring surfaces are infront of the rear takedown hole. Their is a fundimental problem with the fitment when this can happen. The way you placed the plates on to hold the bedding did the job i just prefer to make them permanant parts so the bedding wont have a chance to break out.
I honestly cant see how AI can make a stock that is drop in with these issues. But as the clones of rems have a bigger tang they seem to work well.
great pic of the tang being pulled down becaus the baring surfaces are infront of the rear takedown hole. Their is a fundimental problem with the fitment when this can happen. The way you placed the plates on to hold the bedding did the job i just prefer to make them permanant parts so the bedding wont have a chance to break out.
I honestly cant see how AI can make a stock that is drop in with these issues. But as the clones of rems have a bigger tang they seem to work well.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Mine is bedded. I know it would probably shoot really well without it, but my smith has the same philosophy as Terry. I bed every rifle. Just keeps it all consistent.
Mine is bedded. I know it would probably shoot really well without it, but my smith has the same philosophy as Terry. I bed every rifle. Just keeps it all consistent.
Re: Bedding an AICS yes or maybe??
Thank you for the info. Somehow I had been told it was 65 in-lb
Thank you for the info. Somehow I had been told it was 65 in-lb
