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Gunsmithing Bedding epoxies

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Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 19, 2010
507
5
Central, AL
After doing a lot of reading here, I've not seen where anyone uses Brownells Acra-gel/glass for bedding. Seems everyone uses Devcon, marine-tex or J-B for bedding actions and bases.

Is there something wrong with Acra-gel I'm missing??

Thanks
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

I think people use what they have available and what has worked well in the past.
I would use marine-tex but I have to make a special trip to get it. So I use JB weld. It is a bit runny so I let it set for an hour before application. It works well and cleans easily. But it takes a few days to harden all the way, esp in this weather.
I would suppose acra-glas would give good results. Use it and see. If you don't like it remove it and start over.
I removed the bedding I just did for my son's rifle because of some air voids and because I did not like the way it looked. The second attempt is curing now.
Bedding is one of those things that is like cooking. You can use different ingredients, but as long as you take care and do it right the end result is good.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

Acraglass gel is a product I used for a very long time with good results.

I later switched only because I learned that the solid filler used is a essentially ground up nylon. Nylon is hygroscopic, meaning it has a water attracting personality. One of the reasons I'm told it's now frowned upon by the food industry as it's a potential breeding ground for bacteria.

Attracting water in a stock/bedding job is pretty obvious. . .

Other than that, it can work really well.

Just my two bits.

C
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

I use Acraglass for repairs and fitting no stressed parts. I use Steel Bed as its Stainless on my tactical M14's

Ive also gotten great results with DEVCON steel, aluminum and their stainless. It works and is easy to find through Graingers industrial supply

I use the bulk Brownell's release agent.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

Thanks for the replies. I've used Acra-gel for every rifle I've bedded, going back about a year now.
I just have not seen in mentioned here and was wondering if I had missed something or something wrong with it over time, that was common knowledge here.

Thanks
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

I have tried most of them and think perfect results are possible with most any epoxy.

I use Devcon steel putty, because I don't want to fight time or gravity.

If there are a dozen things that really improve accuracy and a dozen things that don't do much, bedding the barreled action is in the later. That does not stop me from doing it for every hard kicking rifle, because I am pitifully desperate for any more accuracy and grasping at straws. I am not dumb enough to bed bolt action .223s. I draw the line there.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. I am not dumb enough to bed bolt action .223s. I draw the line there. </div></div>

Aside from a good barrel with a properly cut chamber , i think a good bedding job is paramount for consistant accuracy.
I find it hard to believe that anybody that has delt with precision shoot AT ALL says that bedding a gun is dumb , i've seen well built rim fire rifles shoot like shit untill they were properly bedded. recoil has nothing to do with weather a gun needs bedding or not
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Acraglass gel is a product I used for a very long time with good results.

I later switched only because I learned that the solid filler used is a essentially ground up nylon. Nylon is hygroscopic, meaning it has a water attracting personality. One of the reasons I'm told it's now frowned upon by the food industry as it's a potential breeding ground for bacteria.

Attracting water in a stock/bedding job is pretty obvious. . .

Other than that, it can work really well.

Just my two bits.

C </div></div>

C,

Do you think that even though the nylon is embedded in the epoxy it still absorbs water or is just as hygroscopic as pure nylon? Would it be less hygroscopic because the epoxy is absorbed into and coats the nylon? Just a thought.

I've used acraglas and other systems and am currently going to try devcon on my next project or two. So far, no problems with the acraglas

BLK7
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. I am not dumb enough to bed bolt action .223s. I draw the line there. </div></div>

Aside from a good barrel with a properly cut chamber , i think a good bedding job is paramount for consistant accuracy.
I find it hard to believe that anybody that has delt with precision shoot AT ALL says that bedding a gun is dumb , i've seen well built rim fire rifles shoot like shit untill they were properly bedded. recoil has nothing to do with weather a gun needs bedding or not </div></div>

+1

You can bed the rifle to reinforce the stock and recoil lug area, but I think the greatest advantage is to be able to make the action stress free when it is torqued into the stock. I have a Rem 700 varmint in .223 that benefited from bedding. It would shoot tight groups but zero would wander from one range session to the next. After bedding, it has been a lot more consistent. i think the stock was warping and cause the action to stress.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BLK7</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Acraglass gel is a product I used for a very long time with good results.

I later switched only because I learned that the solid filler used is a essentially ground up nylon. Nylon is hygroscopic, meaning it has a water attracting personality. One of the reasons I'm told it's now frowned upon by the food industry as it's a potential breeding ground for bacteria.

Attracting water in a stock/bedding job is pretty obvious. . .

Other than that, it can work really well.

Just my two bits.

C </div></div>

C,

Do you think that even though the nylon is embedded in the epoxy it still absorbs water or is just as hygroscopic as pure nylon? Would it be less hygroscopic because the epoxy is absorbed into and coats the nylon? Just a thought.

I've used acraglas and other systems and am currently going to try devcon on my next project or two. So far, no problems with the acraglas

BLK7 </div></div>

Like a properly sealed up wood stock, the coated pieces of nylon would not see a problem with water ingression, though I think the problem that Chad is getting to would be "how do I KNOW that there's not some pieces of nylon that are sticking up/sideways/out which aren't properly coated in the epoxy and MIGHT absorb water" and in turn ruin that "stress free consistency".

I've used JB Weld, Devcon Ti Putty & Steel Putty, Marine Tex, and even regular West Systems resin with chopped glass filler and microtex balloons to up the viscosity.

They all worked well, each one has it's own quirks but by far the easiest to work with and clean up after *for me* have been the Devcon products.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have tried most of them and think perfect results are possible with most any epoxy.

I use Devcon steel putty, because I don't want to fight time or gravity.

If there are a dozen things that really improve accuracy and a dozen things that don't do much, bedding the barreled action is in the later. That does not stop me from doing it for every hard kicking rifle, because I am pitifully desperate for any more accuracy and grasping at straws. I am not dumb enough to bed bolt action .223s. I draw the line there. </div></div>

Sorry Mate that should read i am To Dumb to bed ALL my rifles especialy the 223's

Mate come on we bed all rifles we build rifles in 223 that are sot to 1000 yards in competitions can you please enlighten me what the diference between a 308 and 223 that are both shot in the same competition at 1000 yards that bedding a 223 is not required. when shooting heavy projectiles like 80 and 90gr in a 223 the recoil impulses are severe and so can the pressure spike be. we also work on target 22's and i can tell you that a 22lr that has been bedded will shoot a lot better than a 22 target rifle that is not bedded especialy when the shooters have to hit a 40thou dot at 20tards prone in a sling any tension passing through the stock then gets imparted to the action.

So could you please clarify why a 223 does not need bedding.

Ane we generaly use Devcon, Steel but have used Brass, Stainless and Titanium and also use a lot of ArmaGrout that is made here in Australia for bedding rifles.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Feel free to explain why it is DUMB to bed bolt action 223s? </div></div>

The ratio of the bullet and gas mass to barreled action mass is so small that momentum translates to low energy and low force recoil at the action stock interface. A big part of the tiny benefits of bedding is a low compliance fastening of barreled action to the stock. That way to the first couple orders, the stock acts as part of the recoil reaction before bullet escapement. That force is so low that the 223 barreled action already has a low enough compliance connection.
Vibration tests on shaker tables show that at high frequencies threaded fasteners act like they are not there in shear. But the recoil lug to abutment in the stock has enough contact area, that the fit in compression looks solid at 223 recoil forces, even if steel on wood. The management of recoil is a part of accuracy, and as the bullet plus gas ratio to rifle gets smaller, the importance of the stock mass gets smaller.


Also major among the tiny benefits of bedding is a consistent compliance, at high frequency that adds the stock to the total recoiling mass in a consistent way. Again, the forces are so small, the steel on wood area of the recoil lug is so low in compliance, that the deflection is so small, that the variations in deflections are so small, that without bedding the connection is good enough.
As the forces between the barreled action and the stock get smaller, the quality of the connection has a smaller effect on the recoil reaction consistency.

If someone wants to bet, I would bet that for $200 I can build a scoped bolt action 223 with no bedding no action screws, just sitting in the stock, loose. The rifle with loose stock and scope will weigh 8 pounds and shoot 35 gr bullets. I will beat any glass bedded 8 pound rifle at 100 yards that shoots a 500 gr bullets, built with less than $10,000, on a low wind day.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Feel free to explain why it is DUMB to bed bolt action 223s? </div></div>

The ratio of the bullet and gas mass to barreled action mass is so small that momentum translates to low energy and low force recoil at the action stock interface. A big part of the tiny benefits of bedding is a low compliance fastening of barreled action to the stock. That way to the first couple orders, the stock acts as part of the recoil reaction before bullet escapement. That force is so low that the 223 barreled action already has a low enough compliance connection.
Vibration tests on shaker tables show that at high frequencies threaded fasteners act like they are not there in shear. But the recoil lug to abutment in the stock has enough contact area, that the fit in compression looks solid at 223 recoil forces, even if steel on wood. The management of recoil is a part of accuracy, and as the bullet plus gas ratio to rifle gets smaller, the importance of the stock mass gets smaller.


Also major among the tiny benefits of bedding is a consistent compliance, at high frequency that adds the stock to the total recoiling mass in a consistent way. Again, the forces are so small, the steel on wood area of the recoil lug is so low in compliance, that the deflection is so small, that the variations in deflections are so small, that without bedding the connection is good enough.
As the forces between the barreled action and the stock get smaller, the quality of the connection has a smaller effect on the recoil reaction consistency.

If someone wants to bet, I would bet that for $200 I can build a scoped bolt action 223 with no bedding no action screws, just sitting in the stock, loose. The rifle with loose stock and scope will weigh 8 pounds and shoot 35 gr bullets. I will beat any glass bedded 8 pound rifle at 100 yards that shoots a 500 gr bullets, built with less than $10,000, on a low wind day. </div></div>

Boys and girls this is a good example of a whole lot of typing with little to no substance, utter bullshit, and some wild claims thrown in.

Stressed recievers, action screws comming loose due to stock compression, and recoil lugs that touch nothing or are bound up are not condusive to good accuracy in any way shape and or form. Regardless of bore size or chambering... PERIOD.

Guess what? A proper bedding job aleviates all those problems, and more than "helps" in the accuracy department. Its a vital part of it. Not to mention the repeatability and durability aspects.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Feel free to explain why it is DUMB to bed bolt action 223s? </div></div>

The ratio of the bullet and gas mass to barreled action mass is so small that momentum translates to low energy and low force recoil at the action stock interface. A big part of the tiny benefits of bedding is a low compliance fastening of barreled action to the stock. That way to the first couple orders, the stock acts as part of the recoil reaction before bullet escapement. That force is so low that the 223 barreled action already has a low enough compliance connection.
Vibration tests on shaker tables show that at high frequencies threaded fasteners act like they are not there in shear. But the recoil lug to abutment in the stock has enough contact area, that the fit in compression looks solid at 223 recoil forces, even if steel on wood. The management of recoil is a part of accuracy, and as the bullet plus gas ratio to rifle gets smaller, the importance of the stock mass gets smaller.


Also major among the tiny benefits of bedding is a consistent compliance, at high frequency that adds the stock to the total recoiling mass in a consistent way. Again, the forces are so small, the steel on wood area of the recoil lug is so low in compliance, that the deflection is so small, that the variations in deflections are so small, that without bedding the connection is good enough.
As the forces between the barreled action and the stock get smaller, the quality of the connection has a smaller effect on the recoil reaction consistency.

If someone wants to bet, I would bet that for $200 I can build a scoped bolt action 223 with no bedding no action screws, just sitting in the stock, loose. The rifle with loose stock and scope will weigh 8 pounds and shoot 35 gr bullets. I will beat any glass bedded 8 pound rifle at 100 yards that shoots a 500 gr bullets, built with less than $10,000, on a low wind day. </div></div>

WTF, over.....

Bedding = Better, it's THAT simple.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

I'll take that bet!

Screw the $200.00 Lets make it a thousand dollar bet.

money talks. . .

DSC_0021.jpg
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

I've yet to see a rifle that didnt benifit from a good pillar bedding job. I've owned, shot and built way more than my fair share and they've all been same/same. Bedding helped...period
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll take that bet!

Screw the $200.00 Lets make it a thousand dollar bet.

money talks. . .

DSC_0021.jpg
</div></div>

Good god man! That is the nicest bedding job i have ever seen on what looks like one of the nicest blocks of wood ive seen for rifle!
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Vibration tests on shaker tables show that at high frequencies threaded fasteners act like they are not there in shear.</span> ....</div></div>

While this is true, action screws are not what is providing the shear load transfer and the recoil lug is not the only thing working there either.

With a good contact patch between the bedding and the receiver there is a large footprint for a good friction based load path to act through. The action screws are there to provide tensile preload to the receiver contacting the bedding.

This is <span style="font-style: italic">part of </span>why action screw torque is important for consistency day after day. The preload created by tightening the action screws down is in the order of hundreds of pounds for the 65 inlb of torque regularly recommended for Rem 700 receivers.

Another experiment which might be interesting would be to see if the recoil lug for something light (22RF or maybe as large as a 223) could remove the recoil lug completely and rely solely on the preload induced from consistently torqued acton screws.



ETA: made a bit of an overstatement, edit in <span style="font-style: italic">italics</span>
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll take that bet!

Screw the $200.00 Lets make it a thousand dollar bet.

money talks. . .

DSC_0021.jpg
</div></div>

Good god man! That is the nicest bedding job i have ever seen on what looks like one of the nicest blocks of wood ive seen for rifle!</div></div>
I have got to second that. It is a joy to see some of your "projects".
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

Well hell it appears that every gunsmith worth his salt has been wasting time and over charging his customers for a bedding job that wasen't needed. Hell I guess all the guys like.
Chad Dixon , William Roesco , Jared Joplin , George Gardner , Chris Mathews , Mark Gorden and just about EVERY other gunsmith that build guns to an accuracy guarntee have been doing it wrong.

I wonder what percentage of rifles that hold any records in ANY for of score shooting were not bedded.

This just goes to to prpove that somtimes it better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well hell it appears that every gunsmith worth his salt has been wasting time and over charging his customers for a bedding job that wasen't needed. </div></div>

What else is new?

Get those gunsmiths to charge, not for the bedding job, but for the improvement in groups.

If there were truthful advertising from honest men, .01" improvement for $200, would not be too popular.

Bedding would fade in a hurry from the gun culture mythology common ritual list.

But don't worry, the crooks will keep finding suckers.

A Volvo with lose spark plug wire was taken to car repair businesses across the country. 50% of car repair places gave very high repair estimates. That means the other 50% were honest.

The gunsmith profession has a long way to go to clean up the ethics to catch up to the car repair biz.

Randy Ketchum has a bible on his counter top. When a customer comes in and wants gunsmiths for accuracy improvements, he tells them that most of the work he wants will have no effect.

How often do gunsmiths behave like that?
It's not that they are so dishonest, it that they are so dumb. They think they are helping.
Most of those car places were ready to do lots of work, not out of fraud, but out of ignorance.

 
Re: Bedding epoxies

Clark , I still don't understand your logic behind not believing that a good bedding job is needed.

We don't bed guns (for the most part) to mitigate heavy recoil its done to help the barreld action and the stock to act as one complete unit that is stress free.
Their is no possible way that you can take two identical guns chambered in the same round shooting the same bullet one properly bedded and noe with the barreled action sitting in the stock or even bolted to it but in a bind and the unbedded gun will shoot better than the properly bedded one.

Now saying that you can shoot an 8 pound 223 that is just sitting in the stock better than a heavy mag thats 8 pounds shooting a 500gr bullet that is bedded.
Hell I wager to bet that i could take the averag joe and give him an 8 pound NEF handi rifle and he will shoot it better than Don Geraci can shoot an 8 pound 458 win mag , you simply can shoot a gun that you know it gonna kick your dick string loose as well as anything so compairing those two is kinda pointless.

I have seen dozens of rifles grouns cut in half because they were bedded and at least that many that shot good groups but the POI changed from outing to outing and this was cured because the barrel was floated and the action bedded.

Again I think things like poor lug contact or an untrued action would be much more easly excused than a no bedded rifle in terms of things done to improve accuracy.

the only other thing i can think that has a greater impact on poor accuracy thats an easy fix would be a bad crown
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

If you strongly feel that way, Chad already said he has a thousand to prove him and pretty much everyone else wrong.

I just got my .308 finished the other week and shot it without bedding the rifle. I had a couple of groups that are similar to what the Tac Ops guys post. Guess what, I am still going to bed my rifle.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

The problem is that most do not understand what bedding does.
Another problem is that they don't do controlled tests on the effect of bedding.

The recoil reaction is as sum of Velocity and force.
No force, and we see peak velocity of recoiling rifle.
No velocity, and we see peak force at the fastening interface.
The interface stiffness or compliance can be measured.
The peak force and peak velocity can be calculated.
As the peak force gets tiny, as in the case of the .223, the deflection gets tiny with metal area on wood stiffness.
The effect of the interface of the barreled action to stock becomes negligible and approaches zero, but the charge for adding glass to that interface remains constant.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

So many times in my life I have been in conference room with a dozen engineers all telling me I am full of $hit.

I say, lets get it measured in the lab.

Then I am right and they are wrong. I am very gracious about it, never gloat, and move on, saving their face. That is because I am going to invoice them for a whole lot of money, and I want to get called back, next time they get stuck.

But here, where would I send the bill?
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well hell it appears that every gunsmith worth his salt has been wasting time and over charging his customers for a bedding job that wasen't needed. </div></div>

What else is new?

Get those gunsmiths to charge, not for the bedding job, but for the improvement in groups.

If there were truthful advertising from honest men, .01" improvement for $200, would not be too popular.

Bedding would fade in a hurry from the gun culture mythology common ritual list.

But don't worry, the crooks will keep finding suckers.

A Volvo with lose spark plug wire was taken to car repair businesses across the country. 50% of car repair places gave very high repair estimates. That means the other 50% were honest.

The gunsmith profession has a long way to go to clean up the ethics to catch up to the car repair biz.

Randy Ketchum has a bible on his counter top. When a customer comes in and wants gunsmiths for accuracy improvements, he tells them that most of the work he wants will have no effect.

How often do gunsmiths behave like that?
It's not that they are so dishonest, it that they are so dumb. They think they are helping.
Most of those car places were ready to do lots of work, not out of fraud, but out of ignorance.

</div></div>


Before:

Target_25Shot_Pre_BluePrintLarge.jpg


After:

DSC_0014-2.jpg



As for ethics and gunsmithing. This trade is based on reputation. It's a small community compared to other trades. You start screwing people and the phone stops ringing and dust begins to settle on the shop equipment. Take a gander at the thread list under this section. There was one who was feeling these effects just recently.

Auto repair? Ethical? Hardly. I worked at a Ford Dealership once as a service tech. I know exactly how that game is played. Medical industry? Funny how Dr's prescribe, prescribe, prescribe these days. Wonder why that is exactly?

I am one of the few gunsmiths that makes no accuracy claim on the guns I build. Never have and never will. I equate to a male endowment contest. I base the quality of my work on the visual presentation and the number of event wins in the Olympic, World, International, and National level arena in a variety of competitive shooting disciplines.

Records are meant to be broken and I don't tout myself to be "all knowing". I'm simply reinforcing that I must be doing <span style="font-style: italic">something</span> right. There are a long line of other gunsmiths out there who are doing it right also.

I spent three years working almost exclusively on International smallbore rifles for some of the top trigger pullers in the world. All I can say is bedding <span style="font-style: italic">WORKS</span> and bedding done at the level I strive for works <span style="font-style: italic">better.</span>

Sheri Gallagher's 2013 Anschutz was a 12.5mm gun when she brought it to me. When it was given back to her it shot 9.8mm

-Two tenths larger than the hardest hitting 3p rifle ever known. (9.6mm 10x group: Carl Kenyon-gunsmith Pat McMillan-barrel maker Russian Olymp-ammunition (this was back in the 70's!)

Mathew Emmons won two gold medals with a rifle I built for him. (if you know the whole story then you know I actually built "two" guns in a matter of speaking) That rifle is a solid 10mm gun.

I can promise anyone here that bedding made a significant difference with both of these rifles. Does it take a pigs ear and turn it into a silk purse? Absolutely not and anyone who says it does is full of crap. It will however make a great gun exceptional.

Want more?

Cathy Winstead. Multi-World Smallbore silhouette champion, Multi-time International Silhouette champion, and multi-time US and Canadian Smallbore Silhouette champion. Prior to getting married I built her gun(s) for her. Heavy and light. Both were bedded because it <span style="font-style: italic">made a difference</span>

Kyle Leibertrau

2007 World junior Palma Champion. I doubt seriously he'd be holding 1/3rd minute elevation at 1K with his palma rifle if it wasn't bedded. I <span style="font-style: italic">know</span> it wouldn't.


Everything I (and most other smiths for that matter) do to a rifle involved at this level of the playing field is done for a reason. Alan Warner, Alex Sitman, myself, etc have all come up with reasons; not based on conjecture, internet opinion, or guidance from a Ouija board. It's based on experience from doing this for a long time.

Can a rifle fitted to a conventional stock (ignoring alloy chassis and high durometer rubber thingy's for the moment) be made to shoot as well as one that is bedded? Yes, it can.

IF:

You have the software to accurately model and then program a CNC milling center to surface machine the inlets. It can be done. I own a 22-250 done just this way that will scare you to death. I've also done a few Dakota Arms actions this way when I worked for them. They all shot very well. However it's not an easy thing to do when your concerned with the final presentation of the gun. It's also a fair amount of machine time and that's expensive. -Just as expensive as making a casting (bedding)

I'd be willing to bet that gunsmiths would take the path of least resistance. If there was a way to ensure the accuracy AND the final presentation by avoiding having to bed an action to a stock they'd (we'd) already be doing it.

Facts are facts and all the fancy engineering math in the world can be met with one simple statement:

Put up or shut up.

Let the score card decide what works and what doesn't.

Comments welcomed.

Chad


Chad Dixon
Gunmaker,
LongRifles, Inc.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

OK I'm convinced. As a side note I am a great mechanic. I can make real good money doing a job right and not screwing a customer. Fixed right the first time means a customer will came back to you for years.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another problem is that they don't do controlled tests on the effect of bedding. </div></div>

this i agree with, and the same could be said about many other accuracy "improvements" that are done to rifles. there are quite a few things that i would like to see proven in a controlled environment but i don't have the ability/resources to do so.

without the ability and resources to perform these tests, i will continue to do what i have proven works and what is the best <span style="font-style: italic">theory</span> in my mind.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

For me I use JB weld because it is cheaper and available locally. Who wants to pay $13.45 plus shipping for two part epoxy
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

Regarding controlled tests. . .

I have.

The USOTC has two ranges. Upstairs/downstairs.

Downstairs there's a 3'x3' concrete slab that goes about 10+ feet to bedrock. It's what the test rig is built on.

We used a variety of machine rests and "peoples" for testing. In every (and I mean eeeevvvvvveeeeeerrrrryyyyyy) instance a rifle that's bedded well (rimfires anyway) has less vertical and the occassional fliers are reduced as well.

I've taken brand new 1913's, 1911's, and 2013's and tested them before and after bedding.

Not just one or two guns. Probably close to 20-30 over a three year time span over the course of summer, fall, winter, etc.

I've also done this with bag guns shot outdoors as well. In fact the Annie that I'm tuning up right now was tested, tested, tested before I shipped it. I had a lot of trigger time on this bugger before it left. (almost ten years ago)

Bedding works guys. Scouts honor.

C
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding Bedding works guys. Scouts honor.

C </div></div>

And we are supposed to believe you , your a gunsmith and seeing how we have been informed right here in this very thread that gunbuilders are on the same level and bad car mechanics as far as charging for things that dont serve any purpose how are we supposed to find any merit in any gun plumers words?

Sorry just had to stir the pot some
grin.gif
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Feel free to explain why it is DUMB to bed bolt action 223s? </div></div>

The ratio of the bullet and gas mass to barreled action mass is so small that momentum translates to low energy and low force recoil at the action stock interface. A big part of the tiny benefits of bedding is a low compliance fastening of barreled action to the stock. That way to the first couple orders, the stock acts as part of the recoil reaction before bullet escapement. That force is so low that the 223 barreled action already has a low enough compliance connection.
Vibration tests on shaker tables show that at high frequencies threaded fasteners act like they are not there in shear. But the recoil lug to abutment in the stock has enough contact area, that the fit in compression looks solid at 223 recoil forces, even if steel on wood. The management of recoil is a part of accuracy, and as the bullet plus gas ratio to rifle gets smaller, the importance of the stock mass gets smaller.


Also major among the tiny benefits of bedding is a consistent compliance, at high frequency that adds the stock to the total recoiling mass in a consistent way. Again, the forces are so small, the steel on wood area of the recoil lug is so low in compliance, that the deflection is so small, that the variations in deflections are so small, that without bedding the connection is good enough.
As the forces between the barreled action and the stock get smaller, the quality of the connection has a smaller effect on the recoil reaction consistency.

If someone wants to bet, I would bet that for $200 I can build a scoped bolt action 223 with no bedding no action screws, just sitting in the stock, loose. The rifle with loose stock and scope will weigh 8 pounds and shoot 35 gr bullets. I will beat any glass bedded 8 pound rifle at 100 yards that shoots a 500 gr bullets, built with less than $10,000, on a low wind day. </div></div>

That post reminds me of This. I'm not sure how bedding would seem like a bad idea if a person has even half of an idea of what makes (and keeps) a rifle accurate.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

This was more interesting than I ever imagined!!!

I was really just looking for "Acra-gel is fine" or " product xxxxxx is better because_____________"

Thanks for all the info guys.

BTW, Is it to late for me to get in on this bet?? Every rifle I've bedded shoots better after doing so.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That post reminds me of <span style="font-weight: bold">This</span>. I'm not sure how bedding would seem like a bad idea if a person has even half of an idea of what makes (and keeps) a rifle accurate. </div></div>

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Who thinks this stuff up?
grin.gif
grin.gif
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: css</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was more interesting than I ever imagined!!!

I was really just looking for "Acra-gel is fine" or " product xxxxxx is better because_____________"

Thanks for all the info guys.

BTW, Is it to late for me to get in on this bet?? Every rifle I've bedded shoots better after doing so. </div></div>

ccs , the Acra-Glas products are fine and the premixed gel is good stuff , the black is a nice dark black rather than the grey color that Devcon has , if your gonna use the Acra stuff I'd recomend the gel because it doesn't run nearly as bas.

I generaly use Devcon putty because it doesn't run or sag especialy if you give it 30 min or so it like working with peanut butter. I used the titanium before and it works great also but not nearly as easy to clean up after its hard.

Some years ago I rana little test where i made some 1" blocks out of several divverant materials and left them outside and checked them every few weeks for shrinkage or expansion , I had planned to do this for a year or more but hurricane Katrina ruined that for me but for the time i had them the Titanium putty had less shrinkage than any of the others with Devcon steel , JB Weld , Acra gel and glass , marine tex , Epcon and a couple others.
The top three , devcon , Acra and marine text were all about identical and experianced about .0003" shrinkage over about 9 months if i remember
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding controlled tests. . .

I have.

C </div></div>

i'm glad to hear that.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

JJones75, you are of the same mind as Chad on bedding shrinkage. On the 40X rebuild that he just completed for me, I asked him just to skim bed an excellent GAP bedding job but he refused. The GAP 700 223 build that I removed the stock from had shot very well, so I thought with a light skim bedding, it would serve well on the 40X build.

Chad explained his thinking on shrinkage factors with varying thicknesses throughout the bedding and why he did the CAD drawing/CNC program to obtain thickness uniformity. So, at much greater labor (his part) and cost (my part), I agreed to a complete tear down, rebuild, re-inlet, rebed, and resulting paint (sadly---I liked the GAP Camo) on my A-5 stock.

Will it be worth it? Bullets and time will tell. I do know this. Chad does some of the slickest machine work that I have ever seen. I'm not skilled enough to "machine" anything. Instead, I was introduced to a CMM 20+ years ago and have programmed and operated those machines to measure some challenging parts in hydraulics, automotive fuel pumps, and now automotive plastics. Chad is at the top of the food chain on metal work.

His bedding appears to be as flawless as his metal work. Once you go with a smith, you need to fully commit. I could have chosen someone else to skim bed and kept my GAP Camo, but then, if the rifle shot sub-par upon completion, who do I turn to? Is the problem barrel or bedding? On a complete build, the smith gets all the credit or all the blame. A good man will stand behind his work regardless, but with two or more involved in a build, there is always room for finger pointing.

Chad is a man of skill and strong convictions. He believes in his work and I believe in him. Finger pointing, if any, will likely be me pointing fellow riflemen to Sturgis, SD for their next build.
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

I love analogies. This is why you bed a rifle.

Enjoy your Sunday germs.

C

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Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BAT_Boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uh, do you remove the pea or cover it with 20 layers of bedding? </div></div>

I think that the machining prior to the bedding is the "pea removal" process.
confused.gif
grin.gif
 
Re: Bedding epoxies

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDeadeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
7mmRM said:
</div></div>

That post reminds me of This. I'm not sure how bedding would seem like a bad idea if a person has even half of an idea of what makes (and keeps) a rifle accurate. </div></div>
You know what is funny is he was up at the Burbank training facility in the 80's and he was funny as anything. I had a couple of classes with him and some of us went to lunch at the Bob's Big Boy in Hollywood. He started to get real popular because of his voice. He could remember paragraphs at a time just looking at them for a few minutes.
Click to expand...
 
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