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Bench-Source Annealer - how to convert yours to run on one 10lb propane tank.

Killshot44

Killshot44

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Minuteman
Jun 10, 2010
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NorCal
As you know, I offer a brass service where I do case cleaning and annealing. (PM me if interested)

I've used a Bench-Source annealing machine for a a number of years and have annealed more than 40,000 cases with it.
I didn't take long to find a shortcoming in the the small LPtanks. As they deplete with use, the pressure to the torchhead will vary, requiring adjustments to the torch. Not the best situation when we're looking for absolute consistency from case to case!

I found another Bench-Source user who had rigged his unit to run both torchheads from one refillable propane tank.
I've shared this with a few via PM and thought it would be worth sharing with everyone who is interested.
The list and process should be easily understood but if anyone needs help, just send a PM.

This is what we're aiming for:
Reloading003.jpg


This is what you need to buy:

From Flame Engineering (http://www.flameengineering.com/Cylinder_Connectors.html):
P-W 795
Hand-tighten Excess Flow P.O.L. Fitting
1/4" MPT OUTLET (need 1)

F-140
Cylinder Adaptor
1/4" FPT x 1" 20 Male Thread (need 2)

I bought the below items from Amazon.com only because I couldn't find them locally. You might have better stocked hardware stores or possibly a HomeDepot/Lowes/Menards.

1/4" MPT x 1/4" barbed fitting (male fitting, need 6)

1/4" FPT "T" (female fitting, need 1)

1/4" FPT coupling (female fitting, need 1)

From most any welding supply store purchase:
1/4" 350 PSI gas hose (need 10 feet)

1/4" brass ferrules (need 6)

Cut two 12" lengths from the hose. Push ferrules onto each hose-end then push in the barbed fittings and crimp the ferrules. These 12" pieces go from the torchheads to the T connector. The 8' piece of hose goes from the T to the tank. (ferrules can be bought at a welding store - I had the guy there use their ferrule-tool to crimp them right there)

The photo shows the T connector mounted to the side of the machine. I didn't do this, I didn't want to open it up to reach the backside of the fasteners. Another way would be to braise the connector to a plate and use metal screws to connect the plate to the side. Leaving it loose does not hurt a thing. When not in use, I coil the hose on top of the unit. The LP tank stays outside when not being used. I usually anneal in the garage/shop unless it's freezing, then it goes in the kitchen.

I use a BBQ lighter to ignite the torchheads. The pressure to each torch is very equal using this conversion. This was often a problem using the little tanks, especially as they were depleted, they often required close monitoring to ensure consistency over a long run.


Good luck and good shooting,

Bob
 
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Thanks for the info!

Now wouldn't it be something if we could hook it up to the natural gas in our homes!? :)
 
I started doing a little searching, and how about something like this:

Shop Barbecue Genius 3/8-in 0.55-in Dia x 24-in L Standard Propane Tank Regulator with Hose at Lowes.com

A couple of 3/8 to 1/4 mpt and you should be set, yeah?

Same here? Amazon.com: 21st Century R46 L.P. Gas Regulator with 2 Hoses: Patio, Lawn & Garden

This one should screw right into the torch heads? Amazon.com: 10 PSI Reg, Dual Valves, dual 36" stainless braided hose: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Any reason those wouldn't work? Not as classy as yours is obviously.
 
Brasscow, I don't think the torch will like a regulated gas pressure. The torches have a built in regulator/restrictor so the hoses need to come directly from the tank.
 
waste_knot said:
Brasscow, I don't think the torch will like a regulated gas pressure. The torches have a built in regulator/restrictor so the hoses need to come directly from the tank.
Click to expand...


Thanks for letting me know.

I called my local welding supply shop who I already have a relationship with and they're going to have the rig set up for me. I have to get my own LP tank adapter, but then I should be good to go.

Thanks guys!
 
waste_knot said:
Brasscow, I don't think the torch will like a regulated gas pressure. The torches have a built in regulator/restrictor so the hoses need to come directly from the tank.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The kits that include a regulator not give you the pressure at the torchhead that is desired.

I think the parts that I listed come in under $25.

I tell you, the hardest part is the damned ferrule-crimping tool! I wasn't going to pay $25 for a one-time-use tool, the guys at welding supply were nice enough to use their shop tool and crimped 'em for me right there.
 
Brasscow said:
Thanks for the info!

Now wouldn't it be something if we could hook it up to the natural gas in our homes!? :)
Click to expand...

Thats a good concept, but to my knowledge, the bench source machine would need a different size orifice to run NG instead of LP
 
That's awesome! My least favorite part of using the Benchsource is attaching and unattaching the propane bottles. I have to do it that way to store while not in use.
 
I did the same thing but using Coleman tee and hoses from Walmart. It works great to get even pressure and the ability to use cleaner gas.

Now if I can only figure out how to get the Lapua color after annealing so my cases "look" legit. haha
 
Iggy said:
Now if I can only figure out how to get the Lapua color after annealing so my cases "look" legit. haha
Click to expand...

Guys, color means NOTHING. The discoloration of the brass is the result of oxidation and the structure of the brass. Many of the customer cases I anneal show nearly no oxidation, especially if they're annealed immediately after SS cleaning.

A good way to overcook your brass is trying to make it look a certain way.

I use a combination of Tempilaq and an infrared thermometer (beware, the cheap ones won't read brass very well) to ensure they're reaching the annealing temp and no more.

And yeah, LNG would be a whole different animal to deal with being that it is mostly methane and is less dense than propane.
 
Killshot44 said:
Guys, color means NOTHING. The discoloration of the brass is the result of oxidation and the structure of the brass. Many of the customer cases I anneal show nearly no oxidation, especially if they're annealed immediately after SS cleaning.

A good way to overcook your brass is trying to make it look a certain way.

I use a combination of Tempilaq and an infrared thermometer (beware, the cheap ones won't read brass very well) to ensure they're reaching the annealing temp and no more.

And yeah, LNG would be a whole different animal to deal with being that it is mostly methane and is less dense than propane.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and probably stinkier. The interesting part though, after SS cleaning at the right temp it's barley noticeable that the cases were annealed. Especially with clean gas, but you can sure feel it when you resize.
 
Iggy said:
....after SS cleaning, at the right temp, it's barely noticeable that the cases were annealed. Especially with clean gas, but you can sure feel it when you resize...........
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth.
I can just imagine how many overanneal their cases trying to get them "Lapua blue".......Doh!
 
Just an FYI - I priced out a made up hose just like is referenced above from 2 local propane vendors. The cost of just the hose is now over $3.00/foot. With the fittings, hose, and having it all crimped together, it's gonna run me around $75.00 total. I could have saved a few $'s if I'd have ordered all the fittings myself, but that savings would have been eaten up by shipping costs. Also, as mentioned above, and I agree, I didn't want to buy the crimping tool for the ferrules. So, gotta pay to play, and will pick up my hose tomorrow. At least I have access to free propane and can fill my 20# tank anytime.
 
Set mine up as shown and works great. So true about the color. Some cases from the same lot will show some blue color at the shoulder while others only have a slightly darker color when annealed at the same time.
 
I can just imagine how many overanneal their cases trying to get them "Lapua blue".......Doh!
Click to expand...

Yah... I used to err on the side of what I figured was under or not quite fully annealed, reasoning that at best there should still be some stress relief (what I was after) going on and at worst I wasn't harming anything. Everything worked, and life was good.

After doing the setup many times I had quit using the Tempilaq, just going by final appearance. Then I decided I had to make things 'better', and started dicking around trying to get the 'Lapua look'. Neck tension started getting erratic, and seating force was all over the place. Scores were in the toilet. Took a long while (too damn long) to put two and two together due to other confounding variables (personal health, etc.).

Finally swapped gun/ammo with another shooter and realized it wasn't *me* that sucked, given a known-good gun and loads. Changed some things on my gun, no improvement. Started over with virgin brass... ahhhhh... crap! Found it :mad:

Any ideas on ways to *un*fuck an awful lot of over-cooked brass? :(

Just to keep this somewhat on-topic - I changed out the little bottles on my Brass-O-Matic annealer for a 25lb bottle and the Coleman tee and hoses from Walmart a while back - awesome upgrade. Maybe not as skookum as the custom plumbing you have on that Benchsource, but it works pretty well. Had to completely re-do it, though, as at some point my bottle got over-filled and the hoses and tips all got contaminated and didn't work at all.

Question on the regulator... I noticed there are a couple different kinds - basically for low flow and high flow devices. Most of the ones I see in stores are the low flow ones for things like a BBQ grill or a gas lantern... but there are some high flow ones that might work. Then again, maybe I should just *stop* trying to improve sh...tuff that works fine as is. :rolleyes:
 
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Killshot44 said:
Guys, color means NOTHING. The discoloration of the brass is the result of oxidation and the structure of the brass. Many of the customer cases I anneal show nearly no oxidation, especially if they're annealed immediately after SS cleaning.

A good way to overcook your brass is trying to make it look a certain way.

I use a combination of Tempilaq and an infrared thermometer (beware, the cheap ones won't read brass very well) to ensure they're reaching the annealing temp and no more.

And yeah, LNG would be a whole different animal to deal with being that it is mostly methane and is less dense than propane.
Click to expand...

^^^^+++++

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the sight of hundreds of pictures and videos of the unwashed ignorant having ruined their brass trying to get "the color"!!!

BTW I've a ruined a few myself and thus the Benchsource that sits in the reloading room.

Thanks for the heads up!
 
Goss REGULATOR LP CGA-510 W/GAUGE B HOSE - 328-EP-70G - 328-EP-70G at Wares Direct

to me this is one of the most important pieces of the equasion. the bench source and giraud are both great machines. a consistent gas feed makes any torch flame more consistent and thats the name of the game. i run a simple double torch setup and the heat comes on fast "thats what makes it fast and saves me time" it also requires consistent flames.. after testing with tempilaq you can sure see the the window is small on a double torch setup. i think this is part of the reason giraud runs a single. anyway the regulator is insurance well spent. brass is nothing to play around with these days
 
procovert45 said:
Goss REGULATOR LP CGA-510 W/GAUGE B HOSE - 328-EP-70G - 328-EP-70G at Wares Direct

to me this is one of the most important pieces of the equasion. the bench source and giraud are both great machines. a consistent gas feed makes any torch flame more consistent and thats the name of the game. i run a simple double torch setup and the heat comes on fast "thats what makes it fast and saves me time" it also requires consistent flames.. after testing with tempilaq you can sure see the the window is small on a double torch setup. i think this is part of the reason giraud runs a single. anyway the regulator is insurance well spent. brass is nothing to play around with these days
Click to expand...


What PSI are you using on your torches?
 
procovert45 said:
Goss REGULATOR LP CGA-510 W/GAUGE B HOSE - 328-EP-70G - 328-EP-70G at Wares Direct

to me this is one of the most important pieces of the equasion. the bench source and giraud are both great machines. a consistent gas feed makes any torch flame more consistent and thats the name of the game. i run a simple double torch setup and the heat comes on fast "thats what makes it fast and saves me time" it also requires consistent flames.. after testing with tempilaq you can sure see the the window is small on a double torch setup. i think this is part of the reason giraud runs a single. anyway the regulator is insurance well spent. brass is nothing to play around with these days
Click to expand...

No regulator is necessary. The torch-heads themselves control the pressure/flow via a needle-valve.

427Cobra said:
The hoses and the T can all be had in the camping section at your local Walmart.
Click to expand...

1) many Wal-Marts do not carry them and if they did 2)the female fittings needed for the Benzomatic torch-heads are not the same size.

Believe me, if there was a cheaper local source of these items I'd have used them and pointed them out.
 
Because of the rise in prices for all the parts needed and the lack of time to run around gathering them up to do this the way Killshot44 did his I started shopping around trying to find a less expensive solution. Here's my solution: 1 Y POL fitting (1 male, 2 female ends) s16, 2 coleman 5' high pressure hoses from walmart $40. Works great and less expensive in both time and money but not as professional looking.
 
Hi,

I hope you will help me.

I bought the regulator that JBryd recommended, hoses, connections and bought a new 20# tank and hooked it up.

Got no gas through either torch until the regulator was up to 60#...and even then it was barely a itty bitty flame, like 1/4" long to the blue tip. Nothing like hooking it up to a 1# bottle.

I wonder if there is an issue with the regulator that is in the torch itself the requires higher pressure.

Does anyone actually have this setup? Or was this just a suggestion? Did you have to modify the torch tip?

Any help would be much appreciated.
 
I set mine up using the regulator as described by JByrd and have not had the issue you described. I did however had to set the regulator to 48# before I got the proper flame. Make sure you open the torch valves all the way and let the regulator control the flow of gas. If that doesn't work check the tank valve adapter for a pressure regulator. Some have a ball and spring mechanism to control the flow. If so, remove the ball and spring and you will have unrestricted flow into the regulator.

 
ZiaHunter said:
I set mine up using the regulator as described by JByrd and have not had the issue you described. I did however had to set the regulator to 48# before I got the proper flame. Make sure you open the torch valves all the way and let the regulator control the flow of gas. If that doesn't work check the tank valve adapter for a pressure regulator. Some have a ball and spring mechanism to control the flow. If so, remove the ball and spring and you will have unrestricted flow into the regulator.

Click to expand...

I'm really confused. That is the EXACT setup that I have. Torch valves open all the way. I don't have a tank valve adapter, I have the regulator plugged into the tank.

If you mean the adapter that comes with the regulator, I'll go look now.

Other than that, I'm stumped.
 
UGH...stumped

I have the same setup.

Annealer.jpg

There is no pressure valve in the attachment between the regulator and the tank, it is a straight adapter that comes with the GOSS pressure regulator/valve. The Y is straight through as are the hoses.

The attachments to the torch have the valve in them that is opened by the extension pin on the torch, but this is just a shrader check valve. When the torch is threaded on, it opens and closes when the torch is remove...there is no pressure regulation. I've validated that the torch opens them completely.

In the picture, I have the pressure regulator open all the way, the torches open all the way and still have a very small flame.

I'm very confused and frustrated.

Any other suggestions?
 

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If you have some 1# propane bottles attach the torches to them directly and see if they have a normal flame. If so, you can eliminate the torches as the problem. That will narrow the issue to the hoses, regulator or tank itself. If you have access to another 20# tank try it. Chance are it is not the hoses. If the problem persists with a different tank most likely it is the regulator and would call the manufacturer.
 
ZiaHunter said:
If you have some 1# propane bottles attach the torches to them directly and see if they have a normal flame. If so, you can eliminate the torches as the problem. That will narrow the issue to the hoses, regulator or tank itself. If you have access to another 20# tank try it. Chance are it is not the hoses. If the problem persists with a different tank most likely it is the regulator and would call the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Torches work fine with direct connect.

Tried two tanks, one was new refill.

Came to the same conclusion on the regulator...I'm returning it to replace it.

Hopefully that will work!
 
Larueowner, Try taking the regulator out of the equation. Just like when using the small bottles, you just screw on the torch heads. Same with the 20 lb. bottle hook hose directly to the tank. The torch heads regulate the flow/pressure and you adjust with the valve on the torch.
 
I just did 1000 pieces of .223 the other day on a 20 lb. bottle. Probably ran the torches for a max of 2 hrs. The needle never moved off of full on the tank.
 
fireEMT5 said:
Larueowner, Try taking the regulator out of the equation. Just like when using the small bottles, you just screw on the torch heads. Same with the 20 lb. bottle hook hose directly to the tank. The torch heads regulate the flow/pressure and you adjust with the valve on the torch.
Click to expand...

THIS.

You do NOT need the regulator or an inline valve - in fact they only screw up the pressure. Keep it simple.

I do a LOT of customer brass. Occasionally a torchhead fails giving a less-than-optimum flame. I'd assume it's due to the impurities in commercial propane.
Just replace the torchhead if/when this occurs. Life's too short to spend time trying to clean/fix them.
 
Help me understand why a $30 two hose regulated setup like the ones mentioned above won't work? If the torch heads are left wide open, then there should be no restriction and u should be getting a regulated 10 psi thru the torches. This is typically enough to run the burners on a BBQ grill so why not the bench source?

How much psi would typically come out unregulated vs regulated.

I thought the whole idea here was to have a regulated source of propane so the flame stays consistent under all conditions. Example. Bottle is Hot, Cold, due to ambient conditions,or bottle is full or close to empty. Many of the complaints I read about concern inconsistency of the flame, and I'm guessing a regulator would solve that. What I don't know is how much psi the regulator needs to be? Heck, even my 50,000 BTU garage heater uses a regulator at the bottle.
 
Look at it this way - These same torch heads are used for the small bottles and are used for soldering copper fittings and such in plumbing work every day. Do you see a plumber using a torch with a regulator between his bottle and torch head? No you don't, because the torch head itself is regulating the gas via the valve on the torch head.

The flame variation that is mentioned is largely due to using the small bottles on each torch head. As the small bottles drain down there is going to be less pressure and a difference between the two bottles. Now, if you have a hose setup made, you 1. have a much larger supply of gas. and 2. have the supply coming from the same source.

I recently did a run of approx. 950 pieces of .223 brass. I started with a full 20 lb. tank. This was my initial setup and first time running my benchsource, so I probably had the torches running for somewhere between 2 - 3 hours.......... I double and triple checked my settings before I got into a rhythm and really started running brass through. When I was done, the tank gage still read full. I doubt the small bottles would have still provided such a consistent flame for the duration.

If it makes you feel better to buy and run a regulator before your torch heads, go ahead and run that way. You are adding another restriction to your setup that is not needed, but still may work, as others have attested to above. What you really need to grasp is that the torch heads themselves have regulation built into them - and even if they are run all the way open, they are still regulating down the gas pressure. This is how they were designed to work.

Refer back to the instructions of the Bench Source machine. The company recommends just using the small bottles on the torch heads. End users who do large runs of brass have discovered that the small bottles work, but not very well as they do not provide consistent flame for large batches and long runs. This led them to having to constantly check or adjust flame settings and recheck their work with the temp. paste.

Someone, maybe the OP (Killshot44) came up with connecting a hose to a larger supply to feed both torch heads more evenly for a much longer duration. At the same time, he kept within the instructions provided by the manufacturer. You won't find in any Bench Source literature the mention of needing to add an additional regulator. This is true whether you run a 20 lb. or 100 lb. propane bottle - just make or buy a hose that connects to your tank and the on the other end is a tee splitting off to hook to your torches. Keep it simple. It works just fine this way for a lot of us out here and if a regulator was a necessity everyone would have one in their setup. Good luck.
 
Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Thank you! I spoke with David earlier today (owner of Bench source) about this question and he said he thought the BBQ regulator and hoses would work but he was unsure how much psi was needed in a regulator. Now after your explanation I realize that's more complicated than necessary. He also said that 2 of the $4 bottles would do 5000 rounds of brass, and that if I had to spend $75 for the split hose setup I would be better off price wise to just keep buying small bottles. I only shoot 5000 rds a year max. I happen to have several full 40 lbs bottles in my garage for my heater, so if I could do the splitters for say under $30 bucks that might be cost effective, but at $75 not so much.
 
While there is a cost associated with setting up a hose system to run off a single larger bottle, realize that you are also removing one variable and that is having 2 small bottles (2 possibly different volumes of gas). Going with a single & larger tank gives plenty of volume at tank pressure right to the torch heads.

Another thing to consider when going with the hose setup is that now you are not fighting the weight of the small tanks hanging on your torch heads. In my opinion, this makes adjusting the flame aiming easier.

i just wrote off the cost of the hose setup to better efficiency and the cost of just setting up the right way right off the bat.
 
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When I built mine, I used what I had on hand at the time.

Cut the threaded fitting off of the top of empty and opened (shot the tank) throw away tanks, then welded 1/8" NPT fitting to it.

Then gutted check valve part from the torches.

DSC01787.jpg



Then threaded in brass brake line fittings.

DSC01758.jpg


Then bent brake line (good for over 2500 psi) to the manifold I built. I also made the manifold so it would move up and down with the torches.

No regulator off of the tank, just like the torches work originally, but did add a QD fitting so it is quick to get out, use and put away.

DSC01768.jpg
 
Damn, Joe, your setup is Sweet!
I may just redo my lines to brake tube just for simplicity's sake and I like the taller stand.

Hate having move my little table in and out of the garage to set the unit on.

Thank you.
Bob
 
do i need a regulator to use it on a 20 lb cylinder?
 
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