I need feedback from people who shoot .223 longrange. I cant afford to build nor shoot a bigbore rifle. And I like auto loaders. So I started collecting lower parts for an AR-15.I've put 10,000 rounds through a 16 in. colt HBAR and am happy w/ the weapon itself but thats not good enough. So far I have a POF lower, Magpul PRS and Ergo Tactical Deluxe grip. Next will be the Giselle Comp. trigger. I need a fast twist for heavy bullets and sub-sonic use. 1/6.5-1/7. 20-24 in. I've looked at a lot of barrels over the years but I want feedback from the end user. Thanks!
- Thread starter gaw
- Start date
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
So what exactly is your question?
So what exactly is your question?
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
My experience is limited to shooting my AR based Service Rifle at 1000. Typically, I barrel my gun with a 1/7 cut Krieger, or buttoned Douglas smithed by CLE with CLE chamber. 3000 rounds is what I can expect before X-ring calls go someplace other than the x-ring. Right now, my favorite bulet is the 80 grain Berger over 24.5 grains of Re-15 for about 2740 fps from massaged Win. brass primed with WSR primers. In prone sling supported practice with as issued irons, I've shot a few 20 round groups at 100 with 3/4's of rounds under 3/4 MOA.
My experience is limited to shooting my AR based Service Rifle at 1000. Typically, I barrel my gun with a 1/7 cut Krieger, or buttoned Douglas smithed by CLE with CLE chamber. 3000 rounds is what I can expect before X-ring calls go someplace other than the x-ring. Right now, my favorite bulet is the 80 grain Berger over 24.5 grains of Re-15 for about 2740 fps from massaged Win. brass primed with WSR primers. In prone sling supported practice with as issued irons, I've shot a few 20 round groups at 100 with 3/4's of rounds under 3/4 MOA.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
Wanting pinpoint accuracy leaves me stuck in the realm of full bull. It also pushes me into the realm of reloading. This build is the only weapon I own I will end up reloading for. Friends push me to get the Dillon press but I'm not in a hurry. They dont shoot for percision. White Oak sells the Upper I need but I want to know I havn't missed an option.
Thanks for the load info Sterling. From what I understand an 80 gr. ends up having the max oa length to be mag fed. Am I wrong?
Im going to need a small lathe so I can shave barrel length in an effort to change harmonics. Anyone play w/ this idea?
Wanting pinpoint accuracy leaves me stuck in the realm of full bull. It also pushes me into the realm of reloading. This build is the only weapon I own I will end up reloading for. Friends push me to get the Dillon press but I'm not in a hurry. They dont shoot for percision. White Oak sells the Upper I need but I want to know I havn't missed an option.
Thanks for the load info Sterling. From what I understand an 80 gr. ends up having the max oa length to be mag fed. Am I wrong?
Im going to need a small lathe so I can shave barrel length in an effort to change harmonics. Anyone play w/ this idea?
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanting pinpoint accuracy leaves me stuck in the realm of full bull. It also pushes me into the realm of reloading. This build is the only weapon I own I will end up reloading for. Friends push me to get the Dillon press but I'm not in a hurry. They dont shoot for percision. White Oak sells the Upper I need but I want to know I havn't missed an option.
Thanks for the load info Sterling. From what I understand an 80 gr. ends up having the max oa length to be mag fed. Am I wrong?
Im going to need a small lathe so I can shave barrel length in an effort to change harmonics. Anyone play w/ this idea?
</div></div>
Wanting pin point... is about marksmanship. The weight of the barrel is not the issue. Understanding exactly where the barrel is pointed until recoil has subsided is what's important.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanting pinpoint accuracy leaves me stuck in the realm of full bull. It also pushes me into the realm of reloading. This build is the only weapon I own I will end up reloading for. Friends push me to get the Dillon press but I'm not in a hurry. They dont shoot for percision. White Oak sells the Upper I need but I want to know I havn't missed an option.
Thanks for the load info Sterling. From what I understand an 80 gr. ends up having the max oa length to be mag fed. Am I wrong?
Im going to need a small lathe so I can shave barrel length in an effort to change harmonics. Anyone play w/ this idea?
</div></div>
Wanting pin point... is about marksmanship. The weight of the barrel is not the issue. Understanding exactly where the barrel is pointed until recoil has subsided is what's important.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
I worry about movement between upper and lower.JP sells tensioning pins I need. I put a lot of thought into the 18 in. LMT Monolithic. But I dont need or like all the rail. JPs VTAC hand gaurd would give me the versatility to upgrade later if I change my mind.
I worry about movement between upper and lower.JP sells tensioning pins I need. I put a lot of thought into the 18 in. LMT Monolithic. But I dont need or like all the rail. JPs VTAC hand gaurd would give me the versatility to upgrade later if I change my mind.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
Well, you seem to have all the answers so I'm not sure what I can contribute but here goes.
I shoot my AR-15 in F-class competition from 300 to 1000 yards. Or at least, I did until recently. Now, I just use it for MR (300-600 yards) as I have been using a .308 at 800-1000 yards.
I put together my AR from various pparts but the barrel was put on my ArmaLite upper by Krieger. It is a 26 inch Varmatch barrel with a .920 muzzle diameter. It has a 1:7.7 twist and their tight 556-Match chamber. I use an 80 JLK in Winchester brass, with Varget and Remington 7 1/2 primer. This is a single load bullet. The MV is over 2850FPS and I do certain things to handle the pressure. I have a Magpul PRS stock and a Geissele trigger and a few other doodads. I would not worry much about lower to upper fit, and I certainly would not be chopping bits of the barrel. This rifle and ammo combo shots exceedingly well but I know that I reached the limits of accuracy for a .223 Rem at 1000yards with this combo. Not to be a wiseguy here, but I seriously doubt that greater accuracy out of a .223 can be achieved, by anyone. And I don't mean a single shot or 3 shot group. I am talking about a repeatable performance, on demand.
So, I switched over to the .308 for LR and my scores have shot up, but I still use the AR for 300-600 yards, it's a joy to shoot but past 800 yards, the wind affects it too easily.
Well, you seem to have all the answers so I'm not sure what I can contribute but here goes.
I shoot my AR-15 in F-class competition from 300 to 1000 yards. Or at least, I did until recently. Now, I just use it for MR (300-600 yards) as I have been using a .308 at 800-1000 yards.
I put together my AR from various pparts but the barrel was put on my ArmaLite upper by Krieger. It is a 26 inch Varmatch barrel with a .920 muzzle diameter. It has a 1:7.7 twist and their tight 556-Match chamber. I use an 80 JLK in Winchester brass, with Varget and Remington 7 1/2 primer. This is a single load bullet. The MV is over 2850FPS and I do certain things to handle the pressure. I have a Magpul PRS stock and a Geissele trigger and a few other doodads. I would not worry much about lower to upper fit, and I certainly would not be chopping bits of the barrel. This rifle and ammo combo shots exceedingly well but I know that I reached the limits of accuracy for a .223 Rem at 1000yards with this combo. Not to be a wiseguy here, but I seriously doubt that greater accuracy out of a .223 can be achieved, by anyone. And I don't mean a single shot or 3 shot group. I am talking about a repeatable performance, on demand.
So, I switched over to the .308 for LR and my scores have shot up, but I still use the AR for 300-600 yards, it's a joy to shoot but past 800 yards, the wind affects it too easily.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
White Oak Armament, Compass Lake or Krieger all should do just fine!
White Oak Armament, Compass Lake or Krieger all should do just fine!
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
Gaw, that's fine. The queen of the maglength bullets is the 77gr SMK.The maximum accurate (for F-class) range is under 600 yards when the wind picks up, but for "tactical applications" (whatever that is) you should be able to be on target to about 700-800 yards. After that it goes transonic and "may" be a bit unpredictable.
For MY purposes, the 77gr SMk is not accurate enough for any range so I use 80grs from 300 to 1000.
Gaw, that's fine. The queen of the maglength bullets is the 77gr SMK.The maximum accurate (for F-class) range is under 600 yards when the wind picks up, but for "tactical applications" (whatever that is) you should be able to be on target to about 700-800 yards. After that it goes transonic and "may" be a bit unpredictable.
For MY purposes, the 77gr SMk is not accurate enough for any range so I use 80grs from 300 to 1000.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My intention here was to find barrels I hadn't yet heard of and until now I hadn't heard of Krieger or Compas Lake. Getting a White Oak Varmint would be a cost effective starting point. Thank you!</div></div>
Your enthusiasm has pushed you into territory where the mix of truth and fiction about good shooting appear to be confusing you, so you may want to consider a re-start at a place which provides you with a basis of understanding for marksmanship in general. Right now, your misplaced notions and mind-set about it all are precluding you from any knowledge presented here to be meansingful. In other words, what you could use is some guidance and direction from a qualified mentor. Perhaps, you could attend an M1 Clinic in your area. These are put on by affiliates of the CMP. Participating in a clinic will place you with instructors who really do know what hog ate the cabbage. This sort of head-start training, I'm sure, will get you off to a really good start to shooting excellence, if becoming a good shooter, in addition to being a gun collector, is what interests you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My intention here was to find barrels I hadn't yet heard of and until now I hadn't heard of Krieger or Compas Lake. Getting a White Oak Varmint would be a cost effective starting point. Thank you!</div></div>
Your enthusiasm has pushed you into territory where the mix of truth and fiction about good shooting appear to be confusing you, so you may want to consider a re-start at a place which provides you with a basis of understanding for marksmanship in general. Right now, your misplaced notions and mind-set about it all are precluding you from any knowledge presented here to be meansingful. In other words, what you could use is some guidance and direction from a qualified mentor. Perhaps, you could attend an M1 Clinic in your area. These are put on by affiliates of the CMP. Participating in a clinic will place you with instructors who really do know what hog ate the cabbage. This sort of head-start training, I'm sure, will get you off to a really good start to shooting excellence, if becoming a good shooter, in addition to being a gun collector, is what interests you.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My intention here was to find barrels I hadn't yet heard of and until now I hadn't heard of Krieger or Compas Lake. Getting a White Oak Varmint would be a cost effective starting point. Thank you! </div></div>
You would do well to re-read what SS posted just above this.
Your youthful enthusiasm, while commendable, may be blinding you to some aspects of reality. In my earlier post, I questioned whether I could present you with any new information that would help you in your quest, because you seem to have all the answers to your questions, even before asking them.
It now seems that all you gleaned from the various responses here are company names and the post quoted above shows that you did not get it quite right.
Let me explain a few things. First off for .223, "Long Range", "accuracy" and "tactical" are not words that go together. In fact you can only have two out of these three words together, you pick any two.
"Long Range" is 800-1000 yards.
"Accuracy" is about one MOA at all distances.
"Tactical" means magazine length bullets, ie bullets with low BC values such as the 77gr SMK, 75gr Hornady, etc.
Now please take this as I mean it, but you sound rather new to precision Long Range shooting. That's perfectly fine, we all started not knowing anything about it. The reasons I am saying that are that you state you had never heard of Krieger and you put benchrest and AR-15 together.
There are many barrel makers and Krieger is highly regarded in that domain, especially for AR-15s. Other barrel makers with excellent reputations and products are: Shilen, Obermeyer, Schneider, Hart, Lija, Broughton, Bartlein, Pac-nor, Lawton, McGowen, and so on. Some do AR barrels, others don't, but I think all the ones I listed do and many of them will chamber, contour and fit the barrel to your rifle or upper. There are certainly other ones.
Next there are many companies who will buy barrels from barrel makers and chamber, contour, flute and install on their own or other receivers and uppers. They do not make the original barrel but they buy the barrel after it's been drilled and rifled and take it from there; White Oak, Compass Lake and many other fine companies do that and present you with a superb finished product.
I would suggest 2 courses of action. The first one is to visit the websites of the various companies listed above and discover their offerings and services. It's not just about the money, it's about doing it right the first time with the simplest series of step. But you need to find out what is involved and why some things are required and others are optional.
The second course of action, is actually a precursor to the one I just described but one that will continue even as you do the research above. Sterling Shooter alluded to it a little bit, let me be more direct.
You need to figure out what you want to do with the rifle and you need to set your parameters accordingly. Go back and read what I said about choosing two out of three with the .223. Trust me on this, I know what I am talking about when it comes to Long Range Precision shooting with a .223. Oh, and you had better be one heck of a hand loader also. I and other here would be very happy to help you fill in the various parameters to help guide you. You need but to ask and not give us the answer in the form of a question.
But lastly, you need to go back once again a read Sterling's post above. Getting a fine barrel in a great upper with superlative ammo does not equate accurate shooting. You need to know how to shoot and shoot well. I realise every American male thinks he knows how to shoot by the simple fact he is a man, but that's just not the case. Even a gifted shooter needs training to reach his (or her) potential. Sterling gave you some good ideas, I will add that books can help you and certainly competition is probably the best way to hone your skills.
In closing, I hope you don't dismiss this message outright. I and others here, would like nothing better than to help you in your quest, but only if you will let us. This is large part what this site is all about.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My intention here was to find barrels I hadn't yet heard of and until now I hadn't heard of Krieger or Compas Lake. Getting a White Oak Varmint would be a cost effective starting point. Thank you! </div></div>
You would do well to re-read what SS posted just above this.
Your youthful enthusiasm, while commendable, may be blinding you to some aspects of reality. In my earlier post, I questioned whether I could present you with any new information that would help you in your quest, because you seem to have all the answers to your questions, even before asking them.
It now seems that all you gleaned from the various responses here are company names and the post quoted above shows that you did not get it quite right.
Let me explain a few things. First off for .223, "Long Range", "accuracy" and "tactical" are not words that go together. In fact you can only have two out of these three words together, you pick any two.
"Long Range" is 800-1000 yards.
"Accuracy" is about one MOA at all distances.
"Tactical" means magazine length bullets, ie bullets with low BC values such as the 77gr SMK, 75gr Hornady, etc.
Now please take this as I mean it, but you sound rather new to precision Long Range shooting. That's perfectly fine, we all started not knowing anything about it. The reasons I am saying that are that you state you had never heard of Krieger and you put benchrest and AR-15 together.
There are many barrel makers and Krieger is highly regarded in that domain, especially for AR-15s. Other barrel makers with excellent reputations and products are: Shilen, Obermeyer, Schneider, Hart, Lija, Broughton, Bartlein, Pac-nor, Lawton, McGowen, and so on. Some do AR barrels, others don't, but I think all the ones I listed do and many of them will chamber, contour and fit the barrel to your rifle or upper. There are certainly other ones.
Next there are many companies who will buy barrels from barrel makers and chamber, contour, flute and install on their own or other receivers and uppers. They do not make the original barrel but they buy the barrel after it's been drilled and rifled and take it from there; White Oak, Compass Lake and many other fine companies do that and present you with a superb finished product.
I would suggest 2 courses of action. The first one is to visit the websites of the various companies listed above and discover their offerings and services. It's not just about the money, it's about doing it right the first time with the simplest series of step. But you need to find out what is involved and why some things are required and others are optional.
The second course of action, is actually a precursor to the one I just described but one that will continue even as you do the research above. Sterling Shooter alluded to it a little bit, let me be more direct.
You need to figure out what you want to do with the rifle and you need to set your parameters accordingly. Go back and read what I said about choosing two out of three with the .223. Trust me on this, I know what I am talking about when it comes to Long Range Precision shooting with a .223. Oh, and you had better be one heck of a hand loader also. I and other here would be very happy to help you fill in the various parameters to help guide you. You need but to ask and not give us the answer in the form of a question.
But lastly, you need to go back once again a read Sterling's post above. Getting a fine barrel in a great upper with superlative ammo does not equate accurate shooting. You need to know how to shoot and shoot well. I realise every American male thinks he knows how to shoot by the simple fact he is a man, but that's just not the case. Even a gifted shooter needs training to reach his (or her) potential. Sterling gave you some good ideas, I will add that books can help you and certainly competition is probably the best way to hone your skills.
In closing, I hope you don't dismiss this message outright. I and others here, would like nothing better than to help you in your quest, but only if you will let us. This is large part what this site is all about.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
gaw, your a lucky man, all your questions answered on the first page! Must be the Hide.
gaw, your a lucky man, all your questions answered on the first page! Must be the Hide.
Re: Benchrest AR Barrel! Help!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gaw, your a lucky man, all your questions answered on the first page! Must be the Hide. </div></div>
I'm not sure he got any of his questions answered; but, this much is clear, guns are so intuitive today that even a monkey can execute the firing task. Thing is, folks sometimes equate executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. The reality of it all does not sink in however until results with the big ass scope do not show improvement in hitting where aimed. Still, without some sort of intervention, the shooter is not likely on his own to ever come to an understanding for any of the concepts really important to good shooting, that's to say, to come to know exactly where the barrel is pointed.
Sig, I think, said all that needs to be said about the matter, in fact, I think he bent over backwards to help Mr. Gaw. I think we both have done the best we can to help a guy asking how to get more horsepower, while steam from the water pump appears to indicate something else needs attention.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">gaw, your a lucky man, all your questions answered on the first page! Must be the Hide. </div></div>
I'm not sure he got any of his questions answered; but, this much is clear, guns are so intuitive today that even a monkey can execute the firing task. Thing is, folks sometimes equate executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. The reality of it all does not sink in however until results with the big ass scope do not show improvement in hitting where aimed. Still, without some sort of intervention, the shooter is not likely on his own to ever come to an understanding for any of the concepts really important to good shooting, that's to say, to come to know exactly where the barrel is pointed.
Sig, I think, said all that needs to be said about the matter, in fact, I think he bent over backwards to help Mr. Gaw. I think we both have done the best we can to help a guy asking how to get more horsepower, while steam from the water pump appears to indicate something else needs attention.
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