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Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
    25,921
    29,209
    Virginia
    MARY WILLIAMS WALSH, On Thursday January 20, 2011, 8:56 pm EST
    Policy makers are working behind the scenes to come up with a way to let states declare bankruptcy and get out from under crushing debts, including the pensions they have promised to retired public workers.

    Unlike cities, the states are barred from seeking protection in federal bankruptcy court. Any effort to change that status would have to clear high constitutional hurdles because the states are considered sovereign.

    But proponents say some states are so burdened that the only feasible way out may be bankruptcy, giving Illinois, for example, the opportunity to do what General Motors did with the federal government’s aid.

    Beyond their short-term budget gaps, some states have deep structural problems, like insolvent pension funds, that are diverting money from essential public services like education and health care. Some members of Congress fear that it is just a matter of time before a state seeks a bailout, say bankruptcy lawyers who have been consulted by Congressional aides.

    Bankruptcy could permit a state to alter its contractual promises to retirees, which are often protected by state constitutions, and it could provide an alternative to a no-strings bailout. Along with retirees, however, investors in a state’s bonds could suffer, possibly ending up at the back of the line as unsecured creditors.

    “All of a sudden, there’s a whole new risk factor,” said Paul S. Maco, a partner at the firm Vinson & Elkins who was head of the Securities and Exchange Commission’s Office of Municipal Securities during the Clinton administration.

    For now, the fear of destabilizing the municipal bond market with the words “state bankruptcy” has proponents in Congress going about their work on tiptoe. No draft bill is in circulation yet, and no member of Congress has come forward as a sponsor, although Senator John Cornyn, a Texas Republican, asked the Federal Reserve chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, about the possiblity in a hearing this month.

    House Republicans, and Senators from both parties, have taken an interest in the issue, with nudging from bankruptcy lawyers and a former House speaker, Newt Gingrich, who could be a Republican presidential candidate. It would be difficult to get a bill through Congress, not only because of the constitutional questions and the complexities of bankruptcy law, but also because of fears that even talk of such a law could make the states’ problems worse.

    Lawmakers might decide to stop short of a full-blown bankruptcy proposal and establish instead some sort of oversight panel for distressed states, akin to the Municipal Assistance Corporation, which helped New York City during its fiscal crisis of 1975.

    Still, discussions about something as far-reaching as bankruptcy could give governors and others more leverage in bargaining with unionized public workers.

    “They are readying a massive assault on us,” said Charles M. Loveless, legislative director of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. “We’re taking this very seriously.”

    Mr. Loveless said he was meeting with potential allies on Capitol Hill, making the point that certain states might indeed have financial problems, but public employees and their benefits were not the cause. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities released a report on Thursday warning against a tendency to confuse the states’ immediate budget gaps with their long-term structural deficits.

    “States have adequate tools and means to meet their obligations,” the report stated.

    No state is known to want to declare bankruptcy, and some question the wisdom of offering them the ability to do so now, given the jitters in the normally staid municipal bond market.

    Slightly more than $25 billion has flowed out of mutual funds that invest in muni bonds in the last two months, according to the Investment Company Institute. Many analysts say they consider a bond default by any state extremely unlikely, but they also say that when politicians take an interest in the bond market, surprises are apt to follow.

    Mr. Maco said the mere introduction of a state bankruptcy bill could lead to “some kind of market penalty,” even if it never passed. That “penalty” might be higher borrowing costs for a state and downward pressure on the value of its bonds. Individual bondholders would not realize any losses unless they sold.

    But institutional investors in municipal bonds, like insurance companies, are required to keep certain levels of capital. And they might retreat from additional investments. A deeply troubled state could eventually be priced out of the capital markets.

    “The precipitating event at G.M. was they were out of cash and had no ability to raise the capital they needed,” said Harry J. Wilson, the lone Republican on President Obama’s special auto task force, which led G.M. and Chrysler through an unusual restructuring in bankruptcy, financed by the federal government.

    Mr. Wilson, who ran an unsuccessful campaign for New York State comptroller last year, has said he believes that New York and some other states need some type of a financial restructuring.

    He noted that G.M. was salvaged only through an administration-led effort that Congress initially resisted, with legislators voting against financial assistance to G.M. in late 2008.

    “Now Congress is much more conservative,” he said. “A state shows up and wants cash, Congress says no, and it will probably be at the last minute and it’s a real problem. That’s what I’m concerned about.”

    Discussion of a new bankruptcy option for the states appears to have taken off in November, after Mr. Gingrich gave a speech about the country’s big challenges, including government debt and an uncompetitive labor market.

    “We just have to be honest and clear about this, and I also hope the House Republicans are going to move a bill in the first month or so of their tenure to create a venue for state bankruptcy,” he said.

    A few weeks later, David A. Skeel, a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania, published an article, “Give States a Way to Go Bankrupt,” in The Weekly Standard. It said thorny constitutional questions were “easily addressed” by making sure states could not be forced into bankruptcy or that federal judges could usurp states’ lawmaking powers.

    “I have never had anything I’ve written get as much attention as that piece,” said Mr. Skeel, who said he had since been contacted by Republicans and Democrats whom he declined to name.

    Mr. Skeel said it was possible to envision how bankruptcy for states might work by looking at the existing law for local governments. Called Chapter 9, it gives distressed municipalities a period of debt-collection relief, which they can use to restructure their obligations with the help of a bankruptcy judge.

    Unfunded pensions become unsecured debts in municipal bankruptcy and may be reduced. And the law makes it easier for a bankrupt city to tear up its labor contracts than for a bankrupt company, said James E. Spiotto, head of the bankruptcy practice at Chapman & Cutler in Chicago.

    The biggest surprise may await the holders of a state’s general obligation bonds. Though widely considered the strongest credit of any government, they can be treated as unsecured credits, subject to reduction, under Chapter 9.

    Mr. Spiotto said he thought bankruptcy court was not a good avenue for troubled states, and he has designed an alternative called the Public Pension Funding Authority. It would have mandatory jurisdiction over states that failed to provide sufficient funding to their workers’ pensions or that were diverting money from essential public services.

    “I’ve talked to some people from Congress, and I’m going to talk to some more,” he said. “This effort to talk about Chapter 9, I’m worried about it. I don’t want the states to have to pay higher borrowing costs because of a panic that they might go bankrupt. I don’t think it’s the right thing at all. But it’s the beginning of a dialog.”
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    I would say if you have anything in a safe deposit box that you value, get it out and find another place to put it. When a bank fails, your stuff is gone daddy gone and you may be lucky to get a piece of paper in it's place.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Switchblade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say if you have anything in a safe deposit box that you value, get it out and find another place to put it. When a bank fails, your stuff is gone daddy gone and you may be lucky to get a piece of paper in it's place. </div></div>

    You got that right Blade, I cleaned mine out some time ago. The "rest of the story", as Paul Harvey used to say, is that alongside of the states problems, at least 100 major US cities are in the same condition. Not to mention that on aberage there is a 15-20% nacancy in US housing...and they are still building to match population growth, wo the excess wont get filled for along time because they CAN'T stop building of the construction industry would collapse .......Things could get A LOT worse...runs on the banks, runaway inflation.....and I dont think this is just alarmist talk.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    Bankrupt muni pension plans are commonplace now. The people running the plans are fubar. Our 401K and 503B plans have a required component of a fixed return investment. Iam living for the day I can roll over the money into my own investment accounts.
    I wonder if any of the value in those accounts will be any good 20 years from now when I need it.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    You know being in my mid-30s and having no pension. I personally hope they find a way do away with pensions (and social security). I know it's shitty to say that but lets look at it realistically.

    Pensioners were promised money that would come out of my pocket in the form of bail-outs leveraged against my generation because of failed promises of employers and governments. If they don't get it it sucks for them but if they do get it it sucks for me or my son's generation. At some point some generation is going to end up with the short end of the stick as is what happens with all ponzi schemes (social security and fed/state bail-out of pensions).
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    It may be the pension funds and even some states now. Eventually crushing debt will drive the entire country broke, drive us to global geo political change, or bread will be 10,000 a loaf. Then our 401k can buy a few months food and the national debt will be easier to be paid. Sounds like Quantitative easing.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">“They are readying a massive assault on us,” said Charles M. Loveless, legislative director of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. “We’re taking this very seriously.”

    Mr. Loveless said he was meeting with potential allies on Capitol Hill, making the point that certain states might indeed have financial problems, but public employees and their benefits were not the cause. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities released a report on Thursday warning against a tendency to confuse the states’ immediate budget gaps with their long-term structural deficits.

    “States have adequate tools and means to meet their obligations,” the report stated.
    </div></div>

    Clearly this is true.

    Just cut back on the requirements placed on State, County and Municipal Employees (SCME's) while increasing the taxes on all non SCME"S, AKA the enemy. I think a tax rate of 97% on Non SCME's would just about cover it. Any difference would be made up in cutting back on any government expenditures other than SCME pay and benefits.

    For any non SCME's who might object to the curtailment of snow plowing, garbage collection, water or sewer maintenance, code enforcement pricks (sorry
    laugh.gif
    ) and other services essential to SCME's and non SCME's alike, a charge of "Hate Speech", with heavy fines and confiscation of assets, can be levied against them. This should also help make up the for the shortfall in pension obligations.

    That's all for now, it's time for my 1st three hour break...

     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HillbillyfromAL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they won't let major corps go under why would they let a State? </div></div>

    thats the problem!!!! Where do you think the money to bail out the states will come from...you and me. Now Im gonna jooin QQ on my 3 hour break.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    The sooner public pensions and public unions are brought to heel and better yet, unions thrown out or made to work as per the private sector the better. Many States are manifestly broke but yet they are still petitioned by public union bosses for raises.

    Blade, hundreds of banks have folded over the last 4 years. There's something called the FDIC that serves as a backstop so people can get their money out. The idea of not having access to a safe deposit box is a 1930s phenomena.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sooner public pensions and public unions are brought to heel and better yet, unions thrown out or made to work as per the private sector the better. Many States are manifestly broke but yet they are still petitioned by public union bosses for raises.

    Blade, hundreds of banks have folded over the last 4 years. There's something called the FDIC that serves as a backstop so people can get their money out. The idea of not having access to a safe deposit box is a 1930s phenomena. </div></div>

    Not quite so....The FDIC has less than 10% of the money needed to cover their obligations. So in a total collapse and bank failure you get 10 cents on the dollar. The Blade was spot on.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    States cannot reneg on these pensions, but they can pass tax laws that heavily tax these 20 and out defined benefit pensions at a very high rate over a certain amoung of money to recoup the losses. They are unstustainable..Last state to go bankrupt was Arkansas in depression from huge road building.At that time they had only 4000$ or so in their acct..took

    Also it is criminal that large public union groups can lobby/vote as a group to get benefits private sector workers cannot by voting their interest at the expense of the private sector which must pay for the benefits.

    The system will collapse. When SS was begun during Roosevelt's adm..my father said it too was unsustainable and woudl be taxed and ultimately income adjusted..eferyone laughed at him in the 1930's he was right about that and right about Medicare...Socialism, as Thatcher stated, fails when U run out of other people's money.
    smile.gif
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly



    Not quite so....The FDIC has less than 10% of the money needed to cover their obligations. So in a total collapse and bank failure you get 10 cents on the dollar. The Blade was spot on. [/quote]

    In a total collapse (highly unlikely) the contents of your safe deposit box will be irrelevant.

    If you think that's how the FDIC handles bank failures then you're not correct. They don't back stop only with their own money. They sell off the assists to cover depositors.

    I only posted on this topic because it irks me to see doom and gloomers suggesting the end is nigh and how people should live as a result. When a doom and gloomier starts racking up their debt, stop paying their mortgage and tell their kids to forget about school because the sky is falling that's when I'll give them the credit of having the courage of their convictions.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Not quite so....The FDIC has less than 10% of the money needed to cover their obligations. So in a total collapse and bank failure you get 10 cents on the dollar. The Blade was spot on. </div></div>

    In a total collapse (highly unlikely) the contents of your safe deposit box will be irrelevant.

    If you think that's how the FDIC handles bank failures then you're not correct. They don't back stop only with their own money. They sell off the assists to cover depositors.

    I only posted on this topic because it irks me to see doom and gloomers suggesting the end is nigh and how people should live as a result. When a doom and gloomier starts racking up their debt, stop paying their mortgage and tell their kids to forget about school because the sky is falling that's when I'll give them the credit of having the courage of their convictions. [/quote]

    Its not doomand gloom. If you look at history its cyclical. Patterns repeat themselves. Only the blind and those who refuse to see miss them. Yhe US economy has been in more or less a bubble since 1945. Dips, yes but a continuing growth. Why? No competition. Now, just as we have fucked ourselves really well with the housing scam/bust, the stoc market scam/bust, sending all our work overseas, etc,etc. We are facing really tough competition from asia and europe/Germany, and we've sold ourselves out. As far as the Federal Gov. backing the FDIC where do yo think the money comes from? two places...print more=inflation, or tax more=slowdown and possible recession. The future hasnt looked so bleak in my 60+ yrs. What we do, hopefully have is the meltingpot of a free society. Fresh and diversified thinking. I hope for the best yet prepare for the worst.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fx77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Socialism, as Thatcher stated, fails when U run out of other people's money.
    smile.gif
    </div></div>

    I think the quote is, "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When a doom and gloomier starts racking up their debt, stop paying their mortgage and tell their kids to forget about school because the sky is falling that's when I'll give them the credit of having the courage of their convictions. </div></div>

    What if a 'doom and gloomer' stays on path but starts planning on a collapse? Gotta give some credit to those people right?
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shot In The Dark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When a doom and gloomier starts racking up their debt, stop paying their mortgage and tell their kids to forget about school because the sky is falling that's when I'll give them the credit of having the courage of their convictions. </div></div>

    What if a 'doom and gloomer' stays on path but starts planning on a collapse? Gotta give some credit to those people right? </div></div>

    Sure, nothing wrong with that at all. It's a matter of to what degree the planning takes and how well informed the assumptions are. If ones opinion on inflation are based simply on "printing money=inflation" with no idea of how credit levels determine inflation/deflation then they are unfortunately going to make bad choices.

    Planning is useless if your contingencies end up making life worse than the actual disaster you're planning against.
     
    Re: Bend over, drop trou, back up quickly

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Planning is useless if your contingencies end up making life worse than the actual disaster you're planning against.

    </div></div>

    Couldn't agree more.