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Berger VLD 155gr. ogive measurement difficulties

Ape_Factory

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Minuteman
May 23, 2020
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San Antonio, Texas
Loaded up some Berger 155 grain VLD bullets this morning, part number 30508, and using a Hornady comparator I'm having a tough time getting an accurate and consistent ogive reading. Anyone else notice this? I think the ogive is so gradual, it doesn't get a good seat on the ogive die and I find the case is "cocked" to one side of the caliper base or the other. Never experienced this with any other bullet.

Is there a better tool for measuring ogive on bullets that have the same sort of construction? Berger's usually pretty consistent length wise but there's always variation. Plus, with compressed loads using say Varget, I want to make sure the ogive measurements are all the same. Thanks in advance!
 
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The Hornady comparator tool is okay, but it isn't easy to get the best readings on a VLD, or one compounded with a thin jacket with the added difficulty of a compression load.

The diameter of that tooling hole has a very slight chamfer to break the edge, otherwise it would be just a sharp edge. Either way, you already noticed how a soft, shallow, curved-tapered surface, can have variation when it meets that edge with variable pressure and friction.

There are some real challenges to mechanical inspections when it comes to contact pressure on gage anvils. We can make them out of carbide when we want to, but even then the parts we are measuring might be soft enough to cause variations in a Gage R&R test.

If you made a dummy bullet out of hardened steel, and passed the Hornady comparator gage around a room full of experienced technicians, you would still get variations that would cause concern. That tool's edge hits a shallow taper and the friction and gage pressure create variations in the readings which are bigger than the ones you would get from a tangent ogive.

This is just the nature of asking a broken edge in a hole to gage a shallow taper that is soft while using variable pressure.

Now add the challenge of a thin jacketed hunting bullet and the variations would grown.

But, we are not done with adding to the difficulty column when we remember that compressed loads can cause actual seating depth difficulties.

So we have combined the concepts that compressed powder can create bullet seating issues if taken too far, with the difficulty of the VLD angles, and added the thin jacket issues. It is a trifecta of variations. (I tell rookies to pick two, but not to try all three.)

With that said, your VLD seating stem needs to have a good contact area with that bullet type and shape to begin with, or you can distort the thin jacket. The seating depth variations can be real with a VLD.

Next, your gage pressure needs to become very consistent or you will just frustrate yourself when you try to measure these.

From there, if you are still having difficulty, you may want to consider the need of a custom comparator tool so that the surface of the tool that applies pressure to the jacket has a much wider contact area similar to the way they use a custom VLD stem for the seaters.. You can either sacrifice one of the Hornady tools, or you make it yourself. It takes some skill to match the angle, but if you can get the sharp edge to become an area contact, you will reduce the variations in the gage contact friction.

Or, try to avoid thin jacket VLD hunting bullets combined with compression loads unless you are willing and prepared to put up with the seating depth issues.

Now a comment that you didn't ask for, but I'll add it in anyway.
Since you are using a hunting bullet, I will assume you are hunting with something that doesn't resemble a Palma rig.
I have seen those shot in tight chambered custom hunting barrels and do well, I have also seen folks try and shoot them in factory chambers and not do so well. So, if your chamber is like a Palma Match chamber, you will get a return for your trouble. If it is not, I would lean more towards a tangent ogive design. YMMV

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The Hornady comparator tool is okay, but it isn't easy to get the best readings on a VLD, or one compounded with a thin jacket with the added difficulty of a compression load.

The diameter of that tooling hole has a very slight chamfer to break the edge, otherwise it would be just a sharp edge. Either way, you already noticed how a soft, shallow, curved-tapered surface, can have variation when it meets that edge with variable pressure and friction.

There are some real challenges to mechanical inspections when it comes to contact pressure on gage anvils. We can make them out of carbide when we want to, but even then the parts we are measuring might be soft enough to cause variations in a Gage R&R test.

If you made a dummy bullet out of hardened steel, and passed the Hornady comparator gage around a room full of experienced technicians, you would still get variations that would cause concern. That tool's edge hits a shallow taper and the friction and gage pressure create variations in the readings which are bigger than the ones you would get from a tangent ogive.

This is just the nature of asking a broken edge in a hole to gage a shallow taper that is soft while using variable pressure.

Now add the challenge of a thin jacketed hunting bullet and the variations would grown.

But, we are not done with adding to the difficulty column when we remember that compressed loads can cause actual seating depth difficulties.

So we have combined the concepts that compressed powder can create bullet seating issues if taken too far, with the difficulty of the VLD angles, and added the thin jacket issues. It is a trifecta of variations. (I tell rookies to pick two, but not to try all three.)

With that said, your VLD seating stem needs to have a good contact area with that bullet type and shape to begin with, or you can distort the thin jacket. The seating depth variations can be real with a VLD.

Next, your gage pressure needs to become very consistent or you will just frustrate yourself when you try to measure these.

From there, if you are still having difficulty, you may want to consider the need of a custom comparator tool so that the surface of the tool that applies pressure to the jacket has a much wider contact area similar to the way they use a custom VLD stem for the seaters.. You can either sacrifice one of the Hornady tools, or you make it yourself. It takes some skill to match the angle, but if you can get the sharp edge to become an area contact, you will reduce the variations in the gage contact friction.

Or, try to avoid thin jacket VLD hunting bullets combined with compression loads unless you are willing and prepared to put up with the seating depth issues.

Now a comment that you didn't ask for, but I'll add it in anyway.
Since you are using a hunting bullet, I will assume you are hunting with something that doesn't resemble a Palma rig.
I have seen those shot in tight chambered custom hunting barrels and do well, I have also seen folks try and shoot them in factory chambers and not do so well. So, if your chamber is like a Palma Match chamber, you will get a return for your trouble. If it is not, I would lean more towards a tangent ogive design. YMMV

View attachment 8259766
Thanks for your description on the difficulties in doing this sort of measurement. 👍
 
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Regionrat explains things well!
I’ll add that I find the hornady comparator tool difficult to get accurate/ consistent numbers - I ended up spending some money on the SAC tool which I think is designed a touch better and I find getting a more consistent number easier. Whether that number is any more accurate is anyone’s guess & as said above I’m sure even with the SAC tool I’m sure 5 people would have 5 different numbers
 
Best to keep a physical reference round with your specific bullet.
You can either always try to copy it, or keep it in order to "zero" the comparator. Either way, it is the nature of seating depths to be a little fuzzy.

I think I saw recently that Area 419 threw their hat in the ring with a design that they described as steel, nitrided, with a surface that mimics a 1.5 degree leade cut at a simulated rifle throat diameter.

One of their other talking points was to hold the caliper in a vertical fixture and allow tooling weight to act as gage force.
Considering how heavy handed some techs are, that may be worth looking into as well.

In the labs, we were always careful to apply automatic gage forces to minimize the errors, so I settled on 250 grams for small arms stuff, roughly just over half a pound, in order to take up slack and load the anvil without going overboard.

This is a little bit more marketing than metrology, but I assume they mean a 1.5 degree ramp angle from 0.308" to 0.300" to mimic a chamber reamer? Hard to know till you see one in the flesh, but this sounds like it still requires being set to a reference.



I haven't played with one of those yet, but it may be worth looking at if it doesn't mean the kids don't get fed....
 
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Appreciate all the feedback and I'll look over all of this and start exploring a bit on ogive measurement. I've sort of figured out the "touch" needed for consistency with the Hornady but always looking for something that's easily repeatable. I'm actually loading for a POF Revolution DI, think AR10 in AR15-sized package. I took one look at the bullet and was pretty sure they weren't going to be great out of the POF due to the greater jump vs. a tangent ogive.

Just returned from the range and they were ok and I did produce single digit SD's on a few loads but I can't say the groupings were fantastic. I might try them out of my Cross with a custom barrel which has a tighter chamber than the POF and I can load them longer. I use the Sierra 169's with the Cross and they're amazing. Was hoping the POF liked the 155's as all of my best sub-MOA loads are in the 150 to 155 grain range for that gun.
 
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Most Palma match bullets are on the order of a 9 caliber ogive or thereabouts. They don't tend to favor a magazine fed semi-auto chamber.
They were specifically designed to get a 308 above sonic at 1000 in a Palma barrel.
That version you picked is just that Palma bullet with a lighter jacket to call it a hunting bullet.
All of which makes it more delicate, which doesn't favor a magazine fed semi-auto application, or being pushed down on a compression load.

Did you have bad luck with an SMK 168, 169 and/or 175 in this rig?

If this barrel won't shoot those, I'm not sure what to think other than it is time to blueprint the chamber to see what it was designed to favor?
I'm not familiar with that specific rig, but your outcome depends on the reamer and the quality of that barrel. Hope it works out, but if not the good news is it is easy to change it out for one that will work. Good Luck.