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Best balance type scale

M

m1a convert

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 29, 2003
287
4
Idaho Falls
Are their any scales more accurate than 1/10 grain?

Is there one that has a more precise way of reading it then looking at a pointer pointing to some hash marks?

What is the best one available? (Without spending the cost of a new rifle)
 
Re: Best balance type scale

I have a 10-10 tuned by Scott Parker. I found him on 6mmBR.com. I bought the scale from him which was used and he tuned it. It is honestly single grain sensitve. I do not know him at all but am confident in his product.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

"Are their any scales more accurate than 1/10 grain?"

Yes. But we don't use them nor would we pay for them. If your desire is more charge accuracy in a reload, it won't help. In fact, few of us even need accuracy to .1 gr, most accurate rifle loads can vary much more than that without notice.

My old beam scale is a fore runner to today's RCBS 1010. I bought it new in '65 but others of the type are just as good. I can see the change from a single kernel of 4350/4831. (Few digitals will do that!) If my scale was more accurate, what would I do, split kernels? There are many other things more significant to accuracy that many people, actually most people, over look or ignore.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1a convert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there one that has a more precise way of reading it then looking at a pointer pointing to some hash marks?</div></div>

I can use my Redding scale to 0.025-0.03 gr--which is about the weight of a single granule of Varget. The trick is that the bearings (and fulcrum) have to be perfectly clean, and then you have to use a toothpick-like device to disturb the thrown charge. Only if the scale returns to the same reading as before, can you trust the reading--otherwise its the bearing friction holding the scale back.

I use a toothpick (bambo meat skewer actually) and displace the throw weight by less than 1/2 of the free swing distance on the scale.

Note, for actual production of a recipie, this is completely unnecessary (0.1 gr is just fine). For finding the exact width of the Optimal Charge Weight envelope it is only useful to be able to read down to 0.05gr. Reading and trickling to 0.025 gr takes 3X-4X longer than trying to hit a 0.05-0.075 gr window--which takes 2X as long as hitting a 0.1 gr window.

It can be done, but is it worth it? Only you can answer that question.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

The older scales made by Ohaus for various companies are very good as others have stated they register a single grain drop. I have picked up several for $25 at gun shows. Scott Parker contact info at 6mm BR might have some tuned or send him one for tuning.
You can find 3 hand solder devices with a magnifier to view the pointer, some also use a mirror with it to be in the same plane, some pics on the net. Please see link below two things use a piece of plastic to allow powder to be dropped into the pan with out bouncing out and a set up of dispenser, scale and trickle. This system is very fast kind of a Prometheus unit for use peasants.

www.shootingsoftware.com/smallprojects.htm

As others have said, powder to the .01 is not necessary and will not score as many hits as, learning OCW optimum charge weight method of load development, learn position like from Rifles Only on line training or better yet in person and learning to read the wind.www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ and www.practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/index.php
 
Re: Best balance type scale

If you can find an old pacific that has a resevoir for oil to dampen the pointer they're great and if you like watching stuff bounce around all day you can leave it dry and it will be as finiky as you please.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

2492.jpg
 
Re: Best balance type scale

Hope I didn't hurt anybody's neck. But there is a paddle that goes down directly from the pivot point into a resevoir and you can adjust the sensitivity by the amount of oil you put in the more oil you put in the greater the resistance to the paddle. But #1 on setup says accuracy is the same.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can find an old pacific that has a resevoir for oil to dampen the pointer they're great and if you like watching stuff bounce around all day you can leave it dry and it will be as finiky as you please.</div></div>

I have the Redding version. I use Mobil 1 in mine.
wink.gif
I've owned several other scales, but nothing I've tried is as sensitive. I use a Dillon electric for weight bullets and brass.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

"Is there one that has a more precise way of reading it then looking at a pointer pointing to some hash marks?"

Not really. All we need do is put the scale on a shelf at about eye level and we can see any tiny movement as needed. It seems many people put their beam scale on the bench top and then wonder why they have such a hard time reading it easily. No wonder they feel digitals are "easier" to read!

Oil dampened scales were "better" than previously undampened ones only in that they did have a dampening effect to slow the beam's swings. But magnetic damping soon followed the oil bath designs and the magnets quickly took over the whole field for powder scales, by every maker.

Magnetic damping works VERY good. And, contrary to the beliefs of some, <span style="text-decoration: underline">the magnets have absolutely no adverse effect on the accuracy or sensitivity of a powder scale</span>!
 
Re: Best balance type scale

I have a tuned 10-10 by Mr. Parker. As shown by me check weights, it is repeatable and not subject to drift like an electronic. Not as fast either, but you have to make some accomodations every once in a while...

JeffVN
 
Re: Best balance type scale

Back to Fuzzball, Maybe but I've owned several magnetically dampened and this one oil one and in my experience it beats all. So maybe I just got the best oil one they ever made and the magnetic ones were toward the bottom of the bell curve, or maybe when they were making the oil ones they just had better craftsmenship, whatever, I'm not speaking from theory here just experience.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unsichtbar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

As others have said, powder to the .01 is not necessary and will not score as many hits as, learning OCW optimum charge weight method of load development, learn position like from Rifles Only on line training or better yet in person and learning to read the wind.www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ and www.practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/index.php
</div></div>

+1. As I understand, powder charging are measured by volume. It is volume that determines your ballistics, not how heavy your powder charges are.

Therefore, that level of accuracy is not necessary.

there are other factors driving the differentiation in scales, convenience and speed are big points for digital scales.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greengo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I've owned several magnetically dampened and this one oil one and in my experience it beats all. So maybe I just got the best oil one they ever made and the magnetic ones were toward the bottom of the bell curve....</div></div>
Never heard of anyone having to de-Gauss an oil-damped scale.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Are their any scales more accurate than 1/10 grain?"

Yes. But we don't use them nor would we pay for them. If your desire is more charge accuracy in a reload, it won't help. In fact, few of us even need accuracy to .1 gr, most accurate rifle loads can vary much more than that without notice.

My old beam scale is a fore runner to today's RCBS 1010. I bought it new in '65 but others of the type are just as good. I can see the change from a single kernel of 4350/4831. (Few digitals will do that!) If my scale was more accurate, what would I do, split kernels? There are many other things more significant to accuracy that many people, actually most people, over look or ignore. </div></div>

I have an RCBS 5-10 that's probably as old as my dad and it's the same way. 2-3 particles of BLC-2 and I can watch it change, if the A/C is on the balance won't sit still and the AC vent in my apartment is halfway across the room coming down from the ceiling.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

"Back to Fuzzball,..this one oil one and in my experience it beats all. ...maybe when they were making the oil ones they just had better craftsmenship, whatever, .."

Not challanging you at all. Fact is, all of the beam scales I've used, quite a few actually, work well no matter how they are damped, or even IF they were damped!

The problem most folk had with oil dampening seemed to revolve around some degree of surface tension that did, at times, affect readings AND the need to keep the oil resivoir free from air borne dust.

Anyone ever degauss (fancy word meaning to de-magnitize something) a reloading scale? Both the beams and bases are non-magnetic, including the dampening vane. So, what's to degauss in any scale? If you kill the magnet you will kill the dampening! ???
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem most folk had with oil dampening seemed to revolve around some degree of surface tension that did, at times, affect readings AND the need to keep the oil resivoir free from air borne dust.</div></div>

Forget where I learned this, but tapping the base eliminates the surface tension problem and helps the scale settle more quickly. Covering the scale when not in use helps with the dust and, as with any fine piece of equipment, frequent oil changes.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

"This one is accurate to 1/4 of a kernal of varget powder."

Is that the legendary Rube Goldberg Model 2 powder system?
 
Re: Best balance type scale

My 15 year old hornady balance beam was getting sticky the last few hundred
rounds. Tried cleaning but it just wouldn't come up with every trickle of extruded.
Broke the screws loose holding the two pivot rollers and rotated them. It's back
to like new. Every grain of extruded causes a rise.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

here we go..........

THE best and fastest,,,,,and the most consistent its the Prometheus......


if you want to win matches,,,,you got to have good ammo.....and the Prometheus makes good ammo FAST and consistant.....down to the particle of powder....actually down to 100/th of a grain....


and yes its balance beam technology......
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THE best and fastest,,,,,and the most consistent, it's the Prometheus......</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">WHERE DO I GET ONE? </span>
 
Re: Best balance type scale

My RCBS 1010 is all I'll ever want or need. The dope behind the bolt introduces more variables than my scale ever will.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This one is accurate to 1/4 of a kernal of varget powder.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...6933#Post986933 </div></div>

What does a single kernel weigh? </div></div>

aprox .024 gr
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1911.it</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My RCBS 10-10 is all I'll ever want or need.</div></div>
I have a Lyman M-5 and don't know the difference between these scales (10-10 and M-5) and all of the others. Can someone please explain what makes the 10-10 (and M-5) superior to the other beam scales?

Also, what does "tuning" a beam scale constitute? I can think of a couple of things to check, but how do you improve a functional scale?
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This one is accurate to 1/4 of a kernal of varget powder.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...6933#Post986933 </div></div>

What does a single kernel weigh? </div></div>

aprox .024 gr </div></div>

So, you could never be certain if the scale was inaccurate or the kernel is lighter/heavier.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1a convert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard the Prometheus costs like $1500. Who sells them?</div></div>


gen-1's were a little less than that for the non-electronic version ...the gen-2 is a bit more pricey.....

Brand Cole holds the patent and hand builds them...the new gen-2 are just now trickling out to select buyers that have been in the Que for some time....it truly is capable of producing precision ammo and a commercial scale.....

i have used both gen-1 and gen-2....the Gen-2 is a magnitude better, faster and exceedingly consistent w/low digit SD's.....
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EddieNFL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This one is accurate to 1/4 of a kernal of varget powder.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...6933#Post986933 </div></div>

What does a single kernel weigh? </div></div>

aprox .024 gr </div></div>

So, you could never be certain if the scale was inaccurate or the kernel is lighter/heavier. </div></div>

It doesn’t really matter; you’re within a kernel of powder every charge you throw, unless Brand decides to make a kernel splitter it’s not going to get any better than that.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It doesn’t really matter; you’re within a kernel of powder every charge you throw, unless Brand decides to make a kernel splitter it’s not going to get any better than that. </div></div>

I was being facetious. IMO, the benefits of anything better than 0.1 couldn't be proven on the target.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

Prometheus is expensive but worth it. Not only is the beam scale refined for precision but the entire loading process is faster as you don't have to take a charge off the scale and dump the pan. Each throw dumps the charge out of the scale into the funnel and starts a new charge automatically.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Winchester 69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, what does "tuning" a beam scale constitute? I can think of a couple of things to check, but how do you improve a functional scale? </div></div>

Win69,

If you dig a little on the forums over on 6mmBR.com, look for some threads by Scott Parker on tuned 10-10 scales. He sells/tunes RCBS/Ohaus 10-10 scales for very little $$$ - $25-30 or so, claiming single kernel accuracy. Send him and email; he was more than willing to discuss the process with me over the phone. One of the things he does is stone those pivot knives *razor* sharp. I didn't write it all down so I couldn't really give you a clear list of everything he checks but thats the biggy that stands out in my mind. Part of it though is he works in a university chemistry dept around *really* accurate scales and test weights and has some experience doing this sort of thing - and has the stuff to check it against to tell if it is working right before sending it back out to you.

I had a Redding #2 (sold my 10-10 years ago for various reasons) but he told me up front that despite owning one himself, he couldn't get the same results as consistently so he didn't offer the service on those scales. He may not work on your Lyman either. For the heck of it, I purchased a new 10-10 from a local reloading store and sent it to him. For giggles, I weighed 50 charges on my #2, and then on my Acculab VIC-123 milligram scale (reads to 0.02gn), and then 50 charges on the new 10-10 before sending it off, and 50 after getting it back. The good news was that his tuning did make a subtle, but measurable, difference for the better. Mainly got rid of a few 'off' reads, probably due to things being smoothed/sharpened up for better consistency. The bad news was... my #2 read at least as good and its never been tuned
wink.gif


The downside to either of them is they are *slow*. For general reloading, +/- 0.1gr is plenty accurate, and having weighed an awful lot of charges (thousands) from my Chargemaster 1500 dispenser to the Acculab VIC-123... it's been outside that range less than a handful of times, and its way, way faster. I've sold off my VIC-123 and have a better milligram scale on the way (Sartorius GD-503) because I still like mucking about with things like that
wink.gif
I certainly wouldn't turn down a Prometheus if one came my way (they are nice machines), but I don't think I'd go out of my way to get one either.

YMMV,

Monte
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Originally Posted By: memilanuk
If you dig a little on the forums over on 6mmBR.com, look for some threads by Scott Parker on tuned 10-10 scales.</div></div>
Many thanks for your reply, Monte. I checked <span style="font-style: italic">sparker</span>'s posts. His latest mentioned that he'll be posting an in-depth article this month; I'll see what he has to say about what he does. Should be interesting.

I could guess that Redding may be on to what he's discovered about scales.

As a curiosity, I've heard a couple of people mention that they didn't like the current Redding product. I've never been able to elicit any specifics. Would you have any thoughts?
 
Re: Best balance type scale

Not sure what others may not like about the Redding other than maybe the little leaf weight that you move back and forth for the tenths - it's so light that you can flick it around more than anticipated, and may not ride down into the notch all the way if you don't watch it.

I have similar gripes about the 10-10 - that dang drum always wants to rotate slightly when I tighten down the nylon lock screw, so it can be interesting getting a repeatable setting on it. Not overly difficult, just something you have to pay attention to.

One of the things I like about the #2 vs. the 10-10 is the presence of a scale for the pointer. It makes it *much* easier to look at the pointer and be able to tell if I am 1/2 tenth, or 2 tenths off of zero when I throw or trickle a charge. You can do something similar on the 10-10 by putting a strip of tape on there and some pencil marks... but I like the way the #2 comes out of the box like that already.

Finally, my other gripe with the 10-10 concerns the *first* one I had, not this one. It had a lot of problems with 'sticking' - someone mentioned the little copper pole piece that goes between the magnets may have needed degaussed. That doesn't quite jive with my understanding of degaussing (copper being non-ferrous and all), but something was making that piece 'pull' over to one side and bind from time to time. The current one I have exhibits no such issues.

YMMV,

Monte
 
Re: Best balance type scale

I got involved in a discussion about magnetic <span style="font-style: italic">sticking</span> several years ago, and de-Gaussing was brought up. As near as I can tell, it's a complicated way of dealing with static, which causes the <span style="font-style: italic">sticking</span>. The conductive vane moving through the magnetic field causes a charge build-up on the vane. A remedy proposed then, and the one I've been following, is wiping the vane with alcohol. With regular cleaning and wiping, I've never experienced any problems with my scale here in warm and muggy Dixieland.

As I understand, the only difference between my Lyman M-5 and the RCBS 10-10 is the drum thingy on the 10-10; the M-5 has a leaf like the Redding No.2. Thanks very much for your opinions on the Redding scale. They solidify my impression of the piece. BTW, someone mentioned that the magnetically-damped beam scales don't have ferrous parts. I hadn't given it much thought; what is the composition of the base on the No.2? Everything else Redding makes is steel or cast iron.

I'm looking out for <span style="font-style: italic">sparker</span> at 6mmBR.
_________________________
<span style="font-style: italic">My mother was a Tesla
My father was a Gauss
Every time he fluxed around
She hit him in the mouth</span>

Georgia Tech <span style="font-style: italic">Technique</span>, sometime in the '60's
 
Re: Best balance type scale

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sawhornsoff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prometheus is expensive but worth it. Not only is the beam scale refined for precision but the entire loading process is faster as you don't have to take a charge off the scale and dump the pan. Each throw dumps the charge out of the scale into the funnel and starts a new charge automatically. </div></div>

I haven't regretted the money I have spent on mine
 
Re: Best balance type scale

Bill

Not true. There some environments where an electronic is the wrong tool for the job (my garage is one of them). Too many little drafts and when the fan is running (as in 10 months out of the year) too much breeze for an electronic to function properly, not to mention the drift problems they face.....

Jeffvn
 
Re: Best balance type scale


I am very partial to this scale. Very difficult to find, slow in operation but a real joy to use and amazingly consistant.

RCBS-304-600x450.jpg
 
Re: Best balance type scale

"..a discussion about magnetic sticking ..de-Gaussing was brought up... it's a complicated way of dealing with static, which causes the sticking."

Not really. Degausing is limited to magnatism, not static. It usually involves using AC power on an electomagnet to demagnitize things.

Static charges mostly build on insulators; glass, plastic, upholstery, clothing, some carpets, etc, but not electrical conductors. It is more common in dry environs because humidity improves surface conductivity on most objects. Static can be killed with water wiping but wipe-drying the often builds it back! Better to use somewhat soapy water, then pat the excess off and allow it to air dry.

Scale balance beams are (usually) made from materials that are resistant to both magnatism and static and it really doesn't matter what the bases are made of.

All the excellant Ohaus scales I've ever seen are all aluminum or zinc alloys, including Ranger1183's excellant Ohaus Dial-O-Gram. Those scales, and the others of that type, are fine scales and I wish I had one. But, they were expensive and over built for our needs so the market simply didn't buy enough of them to stay in production.



 
Re: Best balance type scale

a trick that was taught to me to use on my Redding #2 is to wipe the little copper bar down with something like acetone or nail polish remover prior to every session. This has helped greatly with repeatability. I think it was told to me that this was degaussing. I've never really understood, but I do know it helps with the Redding #2.
 
Re: Best balance type scale

Fuzzball,

I know... being an ex-Navy nuke submarine electrical operator, I got to go through the process of degaussing the boat while in the yards. Demagnetizing a ~7000 ton hunk of metal is a non-trivial process.
wink.gif
That said, while that copper bar is non-ferrous, it still has a certain amount of magnetic reluctance which most likely what we are tweaking with all this fiddling about.

Monte
 
Re: Best balance type scale

I believe we're using the term <span style="font-style: italic">de-gaussing</span> to describe the method used by someone who has used a tape-head de-gaussing tool on a magnetically-damped scale. However the method is used on ships, scales or tape-heads, the issue is semantic.
 
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