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Best cold weather rifle platform?? What is it?

hafejd30

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  • Feb 27, 2019
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    What’s the best cold weather platform?

    AK47
    AK74

    A couple that come to mind

    Had -12°f this morning. Decided to try charging my “truck gun” which is just a simple MP15 Sport II. The BCG ran like turtles racing through molasses. Lubed with Slip 2000 about a month ago and sitting since then. Bolt stopped 1/2” shy of closing.

    The question?

    What operates in the coldest of conditions without needing the extra attention? Thinking AK 47/74
     
    I've run my side charging handle (modified) Armalite AR10 SASS to -14 F with no trouble. To compete at a shoot the rifles and ammo had to sit outside all night and a young man's M1 Garand actually froze up, although he did free it up. Its all in the type of lube you use. I use a moly bearing low temp grease with a sheen of air tool oil on it.
     
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    Wide open clearances allow water penetration that then freezes…
     
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    What’s the best cold weather platform?

    AK47
    AK74

    A couple that come to mind

    Had -12°f this morning. Decided to try charging my “truck gun” which is just a simple MP15 Sport II. The BCG ran like turtles racing through molasses. Lubed with Slip 2000 about a month ago and sitting since then. Bolt stopped 1/2” shy of closing.

    The question?

    What operates in the coldest of conditions without needing the extra attention? Thinking AK 47/74
    But the oil on your truck was fine? Hint...
     
    I only use mobil 1 10w and it's been stellar. It's the only lube I will use and find it nuts people pay for all the 'gun oils'. I've had mobil1 to -20
    My use case is the opposite, high heat and very low humidity, most "gun oil" including Slip has evaporated after a month. Mobil 1 has held up, a thinning of their grease with the oil is even better for hot weather AR use.
     
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    My use case is the opposite, high heat and very low humidity, most "gun oil" including Slip has evaporated after a month. Mobil 1 has held up, a thinning of their grease with the oil is even better for hot weather AR use.
    agree that mobil stays on longer, even during use. I'm always suprised how long the bcg remains coated to some extent with oil after hundreds of rounds
     
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    What’s the best cold weather platform?

    AK47
    AK74

    A couple that come to mind

    Had -12°f this morning. Decided to try charging my “truck gun” which is just a simple MP15 Sport II. The BCG ran like turtles racing through molasses. Lubed with Slip 2000 about a month ago and sitting since then. Bolt stopped 1/2” shy of closing.

    The question?

    What operates in the coldest of conditions without needing the extra attention? Thinking AK 47/74
    Might want to ask @viking78 as he’s in Finland and posts those vids that make me cold just watching.
     
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    What ya got? I use 0w20 full synthetic- because it is what goes in my pickup.
    Same. Mine and the wife's rig both take 5w30 Synthetic, so its on hand.

    No problems since switching to it full time
     
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    Ran my JP CTR with no forward assist in sub 0f with no issues, used CLP spray vs slide glide in those temps though
     
    What operates in the coldest of conditions without needing the extra attention? Thinking.......

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    bf46cf6052bfe6a9a5763ce3c76a0e5b.jpg
     
    Wide open clearances allow water penetration that then freezes…

    If it's cold enough to freeze in such short order, where is this water penetration coming from?

    Condensation resulting from cold to warm/warm to cold is indeed an issue and affects smaller, tighter tolerance stuff first.
     
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    Ran FALS (C1a1) in the Canadian infantry, operated them down to about -50F. Never had an issue. The key is dry lube (graphite). We would soak the rifles in kerosene to remove oil, and then dry lube the crap out of them for winter warfare operations. ARs never did quite as well in the cold, but worked ok in the cold using dry lube. The key is no oil on the firing pin or trigger, with a round in the chamber, the first bang freed them up nicely. the other thing is to avoid condensation, we would leave the rifles outside the tent, once they got below freezing, they would not go above freezing again. Otherwise, condensation gets in and forms ice.
     
    What operates in the coldest of conditions without needing the extra attention? Thinking AK 47/74

    Which ever is lubed and acclimated appropriately by someone who understands how things work in their climate.
    Historically (and anecdotally) the AK faired better than most in neglect of the above...for the same reasons it fairs rather poorly in most non-scientific, info-tainment "mud tests".
     
    Which ever is lubed and acclimated appropriately by someone who understands how things work in their climate.
    Historically (and anecdotally) the AK faired better than most in neglect of the above...for the same reasons it fairs rather poorly in most non-scientific, info-tainment "mud tests".
    I took the BCG out and the slip 2000 definitely wasn’t lubed as I thought it was. It’s been a few months probably since messing with the rifle. Thinking I need to check it more often and keep it properly lubed. I’ve checked it before around 0° and it seemed fine. This time it was legit -12° and dry more so than I expected

    I’ll relube and retest when it drops temp again

    I will add this gun since new has a bolt that does have a bit of resistance in the action. Almost like they slightly bent the upper during assembly. Also has the AR15 carrier in it. I’m putting together a better setup either way. But having the cheap SW M&P in the truck 24/7 is handy
     
    I took the BCG out and the slip 2000 definitely wasn’t lubed as I thought it was. It’s been a few months probably since messing with the rifle. Thinking I need to check it more often and keep it properly lubed. I’ve checked it before around 0° and it seemed fine. This time it was legit -12° and dry more so than I expected

    I’ll relube and retest when it drops temp again

    I will add this gun since new has a bolt that does have a bit of resistance in the action. Almost like they slightly bent the upper during assembly. Also has the AR15 carrier in it. I’m putting together a better setup either way. But having the cheap SW M&P in the truck 24/7 is handy
    The bolt or the bolt carrier group has resistance?
    Try taking the bolt out and slide the carrier back and forth and feel if it may be gas tube misalignment you are feeling.
     
    The bolt or the bolt carrier group has resistance?
    Try taking the bolt out and slide the carrier back and forth and feel if it may be gas tube misalignment you are feeling.
    I’ll have to check that

    I’m a bolt guy and don’t spend a lot of time with semis. So still learning on those

    It’s about that point in the action where I feel resistance. Looked for contact marks on the bolt and couldn’t find any so this may very well be it. It charges and fires fine when lubed and warm. But had issues obviously in the cold
     
    Last edited:
    What’s the best cold weather platform?

    AK47
    AK74

    A couple that come to mind

    Had -12°f this morning. Decided to try charging my “truck gun” which is just a simple MP15 Sport II. The BCG ran like turtles racing through molasses. Lubed with Slip 2000 about a month ago and sitting since then. Bolt stopped 1/2” shy of closing.

    The question?

    What operates in the coldest of conditions without needing the extra attention? Thinking AK 47/74

    I think AK's may be theoretically better cold weather platforms, but AR's are fine in cold weather, Between the 7 countries that have land in the arctic, 5 currently use an AR variant as a service or sniper/DMR rifle. I really don't consider using a winter lube as special care anymore than wearing a jacket, gloves and cap in winter.
     
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    I've run my side charging handle (modified) Armalite AR10 SASS to -14 F with no trouble. To compete at a shoot the rifles and ammo had to sit outside all night and a young man's M1 Garand actually froze up, although he did free it up. Its all in the type of lube you use. I use a moly bearing low temp grease with a sheen of air tool oil on it.

    You know, I have been debating on whether or not to use the same moly based grease I use at work on my customer's vehicles for some of my guns, how well have you noticed it holding up? I honestly haven't really used it in a lot of applications where there's significantly dissimilar metals since in most automotive applications you're using it where steel is rubbing on steel, (i.e. a steel BCG sliding in an aluminum receiver) so I don't know if it gives the same benefits as it does on steel.

    A lot of the good moly greases (aside from wheel bearing/general purpose greases you'd use for driveshafts/wheel bearings) tend to not be as tacky and using a thin coat goes a long way. Moly has the benefit of "filling in" the natural pores of metals and the sulfides create a nice natural slippery layer... I honestly have started using it as a general purpose lube for a lot of things simply because of those properties and less mess (within reason of course).

    But the oil on your truck was fine? Hint...

    I mean even lower quality 5w-30 is technically rated closer to -30°F so that doesn't entirely surprise me, it might crank a bit sluggishly; but should fire off.

    Nobody has linked Garand Thumb's cold weather video? 😅

    I also am surprised by how long it took to link that video!

    If it's cold enough to freeze in such short order, where is this water penetration coming from?

    Condensation resulting from cold to warm/warm to cold is indeed an issue and affects smaller, tighter tolerance stuff first.


    This was what a friend who operated in some frozen places mentioned, that it's not so much soaking the gun in water or freezing it in a block of ice; but just going from indoors to outdoors would cause enough condensation that the gun would freeze over. So they'd get in the habit of just leaving rifles outside so they don't experience drastic temperature changes.

    I am sure tight tolerances play into this a bit, but in the case of the M14 I think part of the problem is that the stock it was mounted on had the cutout for the selector which allowed water to just soak the trigger mechanism and freeze it practically solid. It seemed a lot of the weapons failed because specific fire control mechanisms ran into issues (safety levers, trigger mechanics, magazine catches, etc.), I do wonder how many of the guns would have the same failures had they been stored vertically so that there wasn't as significant amount of ice build up in their more tight toleranced sections.

    ~

    To the OP I would say that most platforms will do fine in cold weather as long as you're being reasonable with handling the weapon. I wouldn't soak it in water or drop it in snow and let it sit for a few hours after firing off a few magazines. If you're going to go from hot to cold maybe set the weapon vertically and consider leaving the magazine out of the gun (I wonder if having the bolt open would help?) and give it a good bonk before using to bust off as much ice as possible.

    Garand's video is extremely informative and interesting, bit it's much like Ian & Karl's Mud Test videos; they're very much pegged to the "extremely unlikely scenarios" side of the scale and are literally pushing the weapons to the their limits in situations they are not normally expected to be in often. I liken it to watching someone doing a video on "how long with each car brand run without oil?" Like it's absolutely interesting and does show the quality of engineering and where the weakest link is (i.e. an old Mercedes or BMW inline 6 is going to just chug along for a long time without any oil, while a modern Mercedes or BMW, or really any modern engine with variable valve timing, lifters, and/or advanced timing/valve control will probably seize up rather quickly). But it's really such a niche situation, like how often do you plan on not putting oil in your vehicle? So take those videos/comments about with a grain of salt, often there's a reason there are recommended procedures for handling/maintaining weapons in various climates to address these issues and mitigate problems; so it becomes a situation of "yes if you freeze the into a block of ice... it won't work well, so don't do that?"
     
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    Condensation is a huge PITA on cold weather.

    So not withstanding fire controls, and the action cycling, a cold weather rifle need to be designed to be broken down and dried out and re oiled frequently.

    A stock or action which has many small complex of parts that trap water, cannot be wiped down, oiled etc is not ideal.

    Especially if the system isn't primarily stainless.

    ooth skin, possibly less enclose or more fully enclosed...

    Kind of interesting design issue TBH

    Comp guns vs hunting guns in snow/ field conditions would be interseting test. Not as sexy as AK vs AR, tho.
     
    This is an issue for bolt guns even, eg pic rails that aren't bedded can trap water between the rail and the action from rain, snow, condensation...etc

    So for me a cold weather gun is mostly or ideally stainless, not tons of swiss cheese / parts nooks and crannies.

    Relatively sm
     
    Comp bolt guns with tight clearances and match triggers can go down due to a bit of blown dust.
     
    Comp bolt guns with tight clearances and match triggers can go down due to a bit of blown dust.
    Yup comp guns hate everything when it comes to foreign materials
     
    You know, I have been debating on whether or not to use the same moly based grease I use at work on my customer's vehicles for some of my guns, how well have you noticed it holding up? I honestly haven't really used it in a lot of applications where there's significantly dissimilar metals since in most automotive applications you're using it where steel is rubbing on steel, (i.e. a steel BCG sliding in an aluminum receiver) so I don't know if it gives the same benefits as it does on steel.

    A lot of the good moly greases (aside from wheel bearing/general purpose greases you'd use for driveshafts/wheel bearings) tend to not be as tacky and using a thin coat goes a long way. Moly has the benefit of "filling in" the natural pores of metals and the sulfides create a nice natural slippery layer... I honestly have started using it as a general purpose lube for a lot of things simply because of those properties and less mess (within reason of course).
    I use Amsoil Synthetic Polymeric Off-Road Grease, NLGI #1 (NLGI #1 - 5% Moly). I use it at work on our construction equipment. It claims to resists "pound out" and "wash out" and works better than most greases in the looser joints and knuckles in heavy equipment so I assumed it would be right for a self-loading firearm as the rapid cycling bolt flings oil off and water in the system freezes up in the cold. I do put a sheen of air tool oil over the grease and it's real slick. I usually lube the rifle every couple hundred rounds and don't really clean it until 1000+ or more.
     
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    From all the rifles I have seen run through high volume in way colder than that, I personally prefer the 11.5” AR-15 built to TDP, preferably Canadian Diameco/Colt Canada specs. Lube appropriately.

    From 2005-2016 working with the Finns, Estonians, Danes, Norwegians, etc., with many arctic courses run in high volume, we had plenty of instances where 7.62x39 AKs crapped the bed enough that immediate action did not correct the problems. I don’t recall any malfunctions with TDP-built ARs. I saw very occasional malfs with Bushmaster vismod-15s.

    I didn’t see enough 5.45x39 in extreme cold, but one guy in Finland built a franken-74 that ran the whole time on a 2-day course. I’ve shot East Germany -74s in high volume in warm weather and didn’t have any malfs during the same range session where all of the PM-63s (Romanian AKMs) were deadlined. That was in 1998, many years before I started spending a lot of time in Scandinavia.

    But again, of all the rifles I’ve seen, I knee-jerk to the 11.5” AR-15s with correct parts. That means correct upper and BCG, springs, good barrel/chamber cut right, tight seal on the gas block to journal (not a slip-fit), and more Mil-Std or equivalent strength furniture (pistol grip and stock). I’ve had pistol grips break in the cold doing CQM suppressed. Cracked right at the grip core, fragmented off the little tabs that retain the backstrap and storage plug. I’ve also seen after-market look-alike waffle M4 stocks chip at the toe in that weak area for the never used sling stud at 6 o’clock.

    I have also seen AK phenolic resin type pistol grips crack, (have one in my possession). The AK or any wooden furniture will spilt along the grain lines as well when trying to extract stuck cases.

    One rifle that I also really liked in the cold weather was the Hk33 with 40rd mags. Hk53 behaved like a bucking mule in contrast, even at extreme cold temps. I haven’t seen Hk33s run through a lot of high volume though, just some anecdotal sessions doing training with Finns.

    In Korea, we had constant problems with the M60 in the cold. That was 1996-1997. M60 was a piece of crap unless you had constant direct armorer support and new guns.
     
    The bolt or the bolt carrier group has resistance?
    Try taking the bolt out and slide the carrier back and forth and feel if it may be gas tube misalignment you are feeling.
    I checked this

    Bolt starts binding about 1” shy of the tube. Charging handle moved freely. Several BCG do the same thing. I’m just going to assume the receiver is messed up or out of tolerance. The gun shoots great and racks just fine except my cold issue. I’ll just use it for the pmc and white box Winchester I have laying around. It’s only a MP15 Sport II so not a big deal. I can swap the upper and toss back in my truck
     
    I’ll reiterate my comments in the thread @carbonbased linked, any that has been appropiately treated for the weather conditions with Dry Film Lubricant. It’s used in the aerospace industry for exactly the same reasons (dramatic temperature variance) and also some formulations when properly applied are Hygrophobic, meaning they actively repel moisture from the surface, or in the case of ice, greatly weaken the bond of the ice with the surface.

    Personally I don’t intend to ever venture into that kind of weather, but if I were to move farther north, I would absolutely consider getting the major bearing surfaces of whatever was my “food on the table” or “fighting” rifle treated with something like Everlube 620C
     
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    hygroscopic means "water absorbing..."

     
    hygroscopic means "water absorbing..."

    Hydrophobic, post edited, I blame the muscle relaxants and painkillers from last week’s car wreck. Put a cramp in my hunting plans too :cry:
     
    I’ll reiterate my comments in the thread @carbonbased linked, any that has been appropiately treated for the weather conditions with Dry Film Lubricant. It’s used in the aerospace industry for exactly the same reasons (dramatic temperature variance) and also some formulations when properly applied are Hygrophobic, meaning they actively repel moisture from the surface, or in the case of ice, greatly weaken the bond of the ice with the surface.

    Personally I don’t intend to ever venture into that kind of weather, but if I were to move farther north, I would absolutely consider getting the major bearing surfaces of whatever was my “food on the table” or “fighting” rifle treated with something like Everlube 620C
    dry film lubricants can gum up in sub freezing temps
     
    dry film lubricants can gum up in sub freezing temps
    I’ve seen it happen with graphite, but not with moly sulphide or tungsten sulphide based stuff like the everlube.

    I’ll have another look at the spec sheets next I get into work, I know one of our current contracts is for an assembly used in the arctic and antarctic, so I’ll see what's spec’d on that. If memory serves from doing the first article on it it was still 620C.
     
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    I’ve seen it happen with graphite, but not with moly sulphide or tungsten sulphide based stuff like the everlube.

    I’ll have another look at the spec sheets next I get into work, I know one of our current contracts is for an assembly used in the arctic and antarctic, so I’ll see what's spec’d on that. If memory serves from doing the first article on it it was still 620C.
    I may be wrong as I was thinking of the dry lubes that are graphite based. You may be right here
     
    I may be wrong as I was thinking of the dry lubes that are graphite based. You may be right here
    I think the biggest difference between the graphite and the moly/w2s is that the graphite is a “loose” dry lube, while the moly/w2s has to be applied similar to a powder coat paint. once the solvent has dried it actually takes pretty significant force to dislodge it from the surface, usually something very aggressive like high grade fixture tape (ask me how I found that one out :rolleyes: )

    looking at the basic 620C datasheet, they certify it in presence of ice to -100F: https://everlubeproducts.com/prod/docs/tds/Everlube620CTDS.pdf

    personally given the choice as an engineer, if I wanted something to keep moving without regards to fouling or very cold weather a hard chrome on the inner surface and a W2S coating on the outer would be my first choice

    So for a Rifle that would be a hard chrome bolt/carrier with the interior receiver surfaces treated with 620C
     
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