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Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

JimGnitecki

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 24, 2011
561
12
Austin, TX
The “best” load for a rifle is assumed by many shooters to be the one that contains enough powder to maximize velocity without getting signs of excessive pressure. However, I don’t necessarily agree with that.

Sometimes a shooter does need the most velocity he or she can get, for example for shooting very long distances, to get sufficient stopping power at longer distances, or simply to minimize trajectory. However, sometimes factors like consistency, accuracy, recoil, case life, and barrel life are just as, or more, important than high velocity.

I found what I think is a good example this last weekend.

I have been doing load development for my Sako TRG 42 338 Lapua bolt rifle. The 338 Lapua round, and this rifle, both support very long range shooting. I like that, as I finally have access to a long range shooting range, with Larue popper targets that can handle 338 Lapua, and where I can teach myself all about proper consistent hold, wind doping, holdover, and scope adjustments. However, case life and barrel life are also concerns for me, as new Lapua cases cost about $2.75 each now (recent price increase), and barrel life can be dramatically short when loading to the full power levels that the cartridge can support. And, the maximum rnage available to me is 1000 yards, which is far shorter than full power 338 Lapua loads will support. Why beat up the cases, the rifle, me, and my wallet by loading higher power, more costly loads than I require for the circumstances available to me? And, if could shoot loads that are easier on the cases, won’t they not only last longer, but also perform more consistently for more of their life?

So, I studied several loading manuals, settled on Lapua cases, the Sierra 300g Matchking bullet, Federal Large Rifle (215) primers, and Hodgdon Retumbo powder. The accepted minimum and maximum loads for this combination, per the Hodgdon loading manual, are 85.0 grains and 94.0 grains respectively. The Hodgdon manual in fact says that the 85g load delivers 2376 fps while generating only 41,100 CUP pressure, while the 94.0g load delivers 2654 fps at the expense of much higher pressure: 53,400 CUP. So, you get only 278 fps, or 11.7% more velocity while creating almost exactly 30% more pressure!

Another way of looking at this is more positive: By accepting 10.5% less than maximum velocity, you cut pressure by 23%.

This disproportional relationship, of relatively large pressure reductions producing only relatively smaller velocity losses, is true of every powder I have ever examined. I wondered what kind of different velocity / accuracy / pressure combinations I could find if I started at 85g and worked my way upward to say 91 grains or so, a grain at a time, and then in finer increments.

That proved very interesting.

By loading up a large number of cartridges, and firing them at 100 yards in multiple sessions, it very quickly became apparent that for MY specific TRG rifle, all the loads in that range except 86.0 grains were very accurate, with only very small changes in elevation, but the 87.0 grain load consistently made better groups over time than any of the others did. The difference was enough to show up at each range session. Even my shooting buddy remarked on how good it looked. When I stretched it out to 250, 500, 750, and 1000 yards, it continued to perform consistently. I began to view this load with increasing favor. I wondered though if it had “enough” velocity to make for good terminal ballistics at 1000 yards.

This past weekend I took my brand new CED M2 chronograph out to the range, and did some velocity measurement for this load. The results were surprisingly good:

Average fps was 2573 fps! This is 97% of the fps listed by Hodgdon for the “maximum” load (the max load by the way also is slightly compressed, making it impossible to sue with Redding Competition dies, as the compression hurts the internals of these precision dies).

The Extreme spread was 37 fps.

The standard deviation was 10.3, which I’m told is pretty good.

Here’s the best part: When I was down to only 56 cartridges left, I fire one shot to get a point of impact versus point of aim at 100 yards, adjusted the scope, and then fired a 5-shot group at the corner of an orange square on the target. I messed up one of the shots a bit. Here is a scanned image of the target sheet:



Target2012-02-26TRG87gRetumboLapuacasesNSO.jpg




Note that even with the one slightly messed up shot, the entire 5-shot group is only 5/8 inch.

Note that without that one shot, the other 4 make a 3/8 inch group (actually just a bit less than 3/8 inch).

I can live with that.

But, it gets better.

Plugging the numbers into the “Shooter” app on my iPhone, and doing some additional math, the muzzle energy is over 4400 ft lb. Going to the full Hodgdon maximum would have given me 4700, an increase of only 6%.

Going to the full Hodgdon load would also use 8% more powder, and generate a lot more pressure that would degrade case life. And, per the handy barrel life worksheet that someone posted the link to recently, going to that maximum load would also cut projected barrel life from 2200 rounds to 1550. So, by going with the lighter load, I get over 40% longer barrel life.

At 1000 yards, I still have almost 1700 ft lb of energy. To put that in perspective, this is 3 times as much energy as my 308 LMT MWSE will have at that range. It’s also about 3 times what a 357 Magnum revolver has at the MUZZLE. Both the 308 and the 357 are viewed as good stoppers of both 4-legged and 2-legged predators, so having that much more energy on tap with my “mild” 338 Lapua load gives me a warm feeling about carrying adequate stopping power.

And here’s another zinger: If I ran the maximum Hodgdon load, I’d still have only 1800 ft lb of energy at 1000 yards. That’s an increase of under 6%. And, per the Shooter app, my scope adjustment would only be 2 MOA smaller (about 28 MOA versus about 30 MOA).

So, in summary, my mild load gives me great consistency, superb accuracy, less recoil, long case life, and way longer barrel life. What’s not to like?

For me, this milder load is the “best” load for my circumstances. “Your mileage may vary.”

Jim G
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

Jim, you nailed it. I just recently purchased a 700 police .338 lapua. I had a little work done to it and started load development. For some reason this particular rifle won't push them to what sierra states on the 300 grainers. Anyways tried some different loads and settled on ramshot magnum at 89 grains. Max is 90. Chrony'd 6 of them and my average was 2509! With the chromy at 15 ft I estimate that I am 2520 at muzzle. Slow... But here is where you nailed it. Six shots resulted in two holes touching. .25 moa. So I ran the numbers and I will still be supersonic at 1k by 300 fps. Well my nightforce, zeiss, and pst were on other rifles so I put a mark 4 lr/t 4.5x14x50 on it with a 20 moa rail. The very first time I shot past 100 I set up my ar 500 plates at 520 yards. My ballistic app nailed it and I shot a 5 shot group that you could cover up with a snuff can. Looked at some #'s and that particular load has the same foot per pound energy at 500 yards as my .308 at point blank! Point being is VELOCITY isn't every thing!!!!! Again Jim, some will argue with us, but I think your philosophy on this topic is the most logical thing I have read in a while. Great post.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

If I can't get the accuracy I want at or very near max velocity I change powders until I do. I won't buy and carry a .300 mag that shoots at .30-06 speeds, etc.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

On my .308, my "accuracy load" is 43.0 gr Varget under a 175 gr SMK. It runs at 2600 fps, which is too close to subsonic at 1,000 yards. So, the answer is that it depends. If there is a faster accuracy node and you are shooting long distance, as long as it is safe, that is usually answer unless the accuracy is off by a bit.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

Yeah, but one of the main points of what Jim was saying is triple or quadruple the price of reloading the .308 and you will enter the pocket emptying world of the .338 lapua. And one his points was if your still supersonic at 1 k and your node is there, who cares about making it go faster. For 280$ brass I want as many reloads as I can get. Why beat up the gun and brass when you don't have to?
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

I vote for fuzzball's philosophy. I understand what the initial post is about, and (in fact) when I find max in my rifle, I routinely back off 1.5 grains and call it good. So, in my view, we are discussing the relative merits of a 90% 308 versus a 90% 300 Win Mag.

Anyway, since I'm not into gongs, my concern is making a clean kill before my game runs away which almost always means that I need to estimate holdover without benefit of the Iphone ap. For that, I need performance since, (all things being equal) a flatter shooting load will be easier to gauge than a mild load.

Again, I understand the man's motivation. I like to get what I pay for and if I am lugging around a 338 Lapua, it's not for the less challenging than 2000 meter targets, with the same attitude as every Corvette owner: they put their foot in it when they can get away with it. I suppose there is room for agreement somewhere? Nah, I'm sure of it. BB
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Again, I understand the man's motivation. I like to get what I pay for and if I am lugging around a 338 Lapua, it's not for the less challenging than 2000 meter targets, with the same attitude as every Corvette owner: they put their foot in it when they can get away with it. I suppose there is room for agreement somewhere? Nah, I'm sure of it. BB </div></div>

Yes, there is PLENTY of room for agreement and disagreement. As I said, "your mileage may vary". My circumstances are constrained (1000 yard maximum), and whereas a hunter may fire only a small number of rounds per year making barrel life and case life a theoretical versus practical factor, I want to fire a lot, and don't want to waste money, barrel, or cases on power that I don't need. I like what I have versus what the 308 would have at 1000 yards.

But I will also say this: as an engineer, my training was to maximize reliability and lifetime of systems by not pushing systems to their limits when I wanted more power, but rather buy a bigger, more powerful system, that could cruise versus scream when subjected to the loads I could see as reasonably likely. In the case of rifles though, I dislike 20 or 30 pound rifles because of their impaired portability and handling, so if I ever get the opprotunity to shoot 1500 yards or more, I'll probably NOT get a 50 BMG but rather run the 338 Lapua closer to its upper limits.

And, if we were talking handgun loads for CHL carry, I'd be (actually am) all over full power 357 SIG ammo in an all stainless steel semiauto, because you can't have too much stopping power when even the strongest carryable handgun solutions are barely enough, and in fact NOT enough when the bad guy is on Cocaine.

p.s. It's not 90% we are discussing. I am runing my 338 Lapua, as pointed out above, at 97% of maximum available velocity per Hodgdon's manual.

Jim G
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

Jim,
Glad its working for you!
smile.gif


Your variation is less than what I though it would be and that got me thinking. When I gave my original guess as to your velocity (2550fps) it was from load notes from a min SAMMI spec chamber. That you are getting the same velocities as me tells me your chamber is tight like mine (or you have thicker brass). I think you are probably higher up the pressure curve than you think you are.

If we assume Hodgdons given max velocity of 2654, your load of 2573fps, and see an average gain of 30 fps per grain I think you are 2-2.5 grains below 60kpsi.

If I am barking up the tree 91 grains would have you right at 2700fps?
Did you chronograph 88-91 grains?
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

I agree... if the max you can go with a 338 LM is 1,000 yards, by all means, go slow. If at 100 yards, slower still.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful


OP,

Your justification for exploring lower velocity rounds in your .338LM is all fine and good. But if your purpose in shooting is to practice the craft of making as small a group as you practically can at 1,000 yards and less and you are concerned with cost of barrels and ammunition as you posted why didn't you choose to shoot a more affordable round to work with?

The cost of the rifle and barrels is trivial compared to the cost of the ammunition when shooting almost any of the non-mag rifle rounds. A .308Win can muster the velocity to shoot 1,000 yards with the right load and still get 8,000-10,000 rounds out of a barrel. Even if you only paid 0.35 per round at 10,000 rounds you will have spent $3,500 for ammo. You can get a .308Win barrel and any additional touch-up machine work and finishing you might need for $600-$700.

Just saying.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

If I were choosing a round to go to 1,000, it would not be 308 unless I were competing for F/TR. If I wanted to hit paper at 1,000 while maintaining barrel life, 260 or 7-08 are good choices. If I wanted to maintain knockdown power, 30-06 or 300 WIN MAG, or even .284 would be good choices.

To get to 1,000 reliably with 308, you have to run a little hot, at least down here close to sea level you do, so you won't be getting 8,000 - 10,000 rounds out of a barrel. Now, the extra little bit of velocity that the 30-06 provides will get you there without pushing the envelope... and that should give good barrel life.

I agree, for 1,000 yards or less, 338 LM is a bit of overkill, and definitely expensive. But the gun is bought... it is a little too late for the OP to go back.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Did you chronograph 88-91 grains?

</div></div>

No, I did not. But I do have some 85g and 89g left, swill chrono those and see how much change in fps.

I don't think I have a particularly tight chamber. The fired case dimensions, before resizing at all, are:

OD at base of (Lapua) case, above (rim & extractor groove): .5836"
OD at top of case, just under shoulder: .5502"
Case OAL: 2.716"
OD of neck: .3725"
Neck wall thickness: .0150"
Headspace: 2.3141"

There are ZERO signs of anything even hinting of pressure. The recoil is insanely mild. This is a mild load. This is just a cartridge where getting the last 1 to 3% of maximum speed gets progressively less efficient, and generates higher and higher pressures.

Please don't take my experimental results as Gospel. This is what happened for me, with my rifle, and my techniques for loading. Others should experiment to see if their results mimic mine or contradict them. But, I am happy as heck, getting to within 3% of max fps with a very mild powder load, and will continue to load 89g!

Now if someone wants to send me a big jug of Vihtavuori, I will start all over on another experiment. I really wanted to try VV, but was discouraged by the persistent unavailability problems. That was one factor in my settling on Retumbo.

Jim G
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
OP,

Your justification for exploring lower velocity rounds in your .338LM is all fine and good. But if your purpose in shooting is to practice the craft of making as small a group as you practically can at 1,000 yards and less and you are concerned with cost of barrels and ammunition as you posted why didn't you choose to shoot a more affordable round to work with?

The cost of the rifle and barrels is trivial compared to the cost of the ammunition when shooting almost any of the non-mag rifle rounds. A .308Win can muster the velocity to shoot 1,000 yards with the right load and still get 8,000-10,000 rounds out of a barrel. Even if you only paid 0.35 per round at 10,000 rounds you will have spent $3,500 for ammo. You can get a .308Win barrel and any additional touch-up machine work and finishing you might need for $600-$700.

Just saying.
</div></div>

Compare the wind drift for a 308 to the 338. And the terminal ballistics. I am "playing" right now, but if Heaven forbid we ever need to be riflemen, I want to know I practiced with the right combination that no retraining is required.
smile.gif


Same thing with my all stainless SIG P226 SAO (yes, it does exist, but only at TX Dept of Public Safety as a 75th anniversary commemorative). I carry it cocked and locked and practice at the range with full power 357 SIG ammo so "real" usage, if it ever becomes necessary, will hold no surprises. I know that pistol really well now. Soon hopefully, I'll be able to say I know both my rifles.

Need lots of practice.
smile.gif
"It's dirty work, but someone has to do it."
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

Jim,

Never said you had high pressure.
I said 2-2.5 grains below 60KPSI which is standard maximum working pressure.
You can't "see" pressure 60kpsi on the cases.

89 grains should give you 2635fps or very close to 60kpsi (53,000CUP ish)...Once again not high pressure, but close to max standard working pressure.
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim,

Never said you had high pressure.
I said 2-2.5 grains below 60KPSI which is standard maximum working pressure.
You can't "see" pressure 60kpsi on the cases.

89 grains should give you 2635fps or very close to 60kpsi (53,000CUP ish)...Once again not high pressure, but close to max standard working pressure.



</div></div>

The 89g load felt snappier than the 87g for sure. Not huge, but you could feel the difference.

But it is hard to believe that the difference between 89g and the Hodgdon max of 94g would be only 53,400 - 53,000 = 400 cup. I don't believe that for a second.

That would also imply that the difference between 85g (which Hodgdon listed as 41,100, and 89g, only 4 g higher, would be 11,900 cup, while the difference between 89g and 94g being only 400 cup??? No, I don't think so.

And the capper for me would be: If you really picked up THAT much pressure, and got only 2635 fps - 2573 fps = 62 fps for doing so, it sure does reinforce the wisdom of staying at 87g, getting much lower pressure, and still getting all but 3% of the maximum available velocity!

A no-brainer for me.

Jim G
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

Tag this is good stuff
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

Jim,
I am saying the same thing, only I don't believe you know where you are at in the pressure curve until you create a stepped set of velocities or velocity curve for comparison.

You are being thrown off by the amount of grains in the reloading manual when all you need to pay attention to is the <span style="font-weight: bold">velocity</span> your rifle produces. Of primary interest to the reloader is the maximum listed pressure tested velocity....Match the listed velocity and you have matched the <span style="font-weight: bold">maximum listed pressure</span>.
The amount of powder is a secondary reference point to velocity because case volume and chamber size have the controlling affect here.
The heart of my point is I believe if you fired 94 grains in your rifle you would create serious pressure in your rifle. Same thing in my my rifle.

If the earlier velocities you listed were correct 94 grains will come at at 2800 fps which will create some significant pressure in your rifle.
The other way to look at it is why is your rifle at 87 grains so much faster than the Hodgdon 85 grain load?
Doesn't make sense when you look at it that way does it?
If it doesn't make sense on one end it can't on the other.
Think about it?

You are and engineer so consider and re read Boyles law and how a fixed space and linear increases of expanding gases will not exponentially increase pressure or (by default) muzzle velocity...Unless Boyle was wrong that is?
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jim,
I am saying the same thing, only I don't believe you know where you are at in the pressure curve until you create a stepped set of velocities or velocity curve for comparison.

You are being thrown off by the amount of grains in the reloading manual when all you need to pay attention to is the <span style="font-weight: bold">velocity</span> your rifle produces. Of primary interest to the reloader is the maximum listed pressure tested velocity....Match the listed velocity and you have matched the <span style="font-weight: bold">maximum listed pressure</span>.
The amount of powder is a secondary reference point to velocity because case volume and chamber size have the controlling affect here.
The heart of my point is I believe if you fired 94 grains in your rifle you would create serious pressure in your rifle. Same thing in my my rifle.

If the earlier velocities you listed were correct 94 grains will come at at 2800 fps which will create some significant pressure in your rifle.
The other way to look at it is why is your rifle at 87 grains so much faster than the Hodgdon 85 grain load?
Doesn't make sense when you look at it that way does it?
If it doesn't make sense on one end it can't on the other.
Think about it?

You are and engineer so consider and re read Boyles law and how a fixed space and linear increases of expanding gases will not exponentially increase pressure or (by default) muzzle velocity...Unless Boyle was wrong that is?

</div></div>

Boyle's law is being misapplied in your example! It only applies when the gas is being compressed or expanded, or temperature raised or dropped, withOUT an INTERNAL exothermic reaction occurring!

I do intend to measure the speed of the 85 and 89 grain laods I have left. That will tell us a lot more.

To me, it is not at all surprising that you get relativley large gains in velocity at the low end of the working powder range, and very tiny ones at the top end. This is exactly what I have seen time and time again. A good analogy is automoible gas mileage. You get relatively large savings in fuel by cutting speed just a bit, and you suffer very large reductions in mileage by increasing speed just a small amount. It has a lot to do with the Newtonian physics fact that the ENERGY required to move a bullet is proportional to the SQUARE of the speed. More energy requires more powder PLUS the EXTRA disproportionate losses that occur as you try to harness and stuff that extra energy through a small rifle bore, taking immense heat losses all along the way. So, as your speed objective rises, your powder consumption rises at MORE than the square of the velocity attained. It is definitely NOT linearly proportional.

For these reasons, I would fully expect a graph of bulelt speed versus powder used to show large gains at first and then tapering to very small gains in speed as you add the last amounts of pwoder before you hit max that the chamber can handle.

What this says of course is that if you run "flat out" at maximum powder all the time, you can expect your rifle barrel and your cases to have disproportionately shorter lives. This IS what we see in real life, so why be surprised at my findings?

Jim G
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

It's not surprising because, (obviously) it is nothing new. I think people know, intuitively, that small reductions offer some advantage and small increases produce incremental results and reduced barrel life. BB
 
Re: Best Load is sometimes not the most powerful

start the 300 Scenar at 2550 and it stays SS to a cool mile,,primer pockets last forever and the bbl doesnt heat as fast,,with 87 grs H1000 the 338 LM is a pusy cat to shoot,,,but causes major damage WAY out there,,