Probably been discussed a million times but I suck using the search feature. Looking to buy a rifle but not sure what round to get into. Wanting to be able to reach out to 1000 reliably and accurately while staying affordable. I have been reloading for a while and plan to for this. My first thought was going to 6.5 creedmoor but from what I am seeing, h4350 is about the only option, and the lowest I’ve seen it is $53/pound. Seems pretty steep to me.
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All powders are going to be expensive. Primers too. Cost per round difference is going to be minimal unless you're comparing bulk bullets to match, or a 30gr charge to a 75gr one...
Best bet for affordability is probably 223 loaded with heavies. Otherwise, pick any of the small 6s.
Best bet for affordability is probably 223 loaded with heavies. Otherwise, pick any of the small 6s.
223
6BR/Dasher
Primer and power costs are all roughly the same. Just how much powder
Bullets can vary greatly even within same caliber
6BR/Dasher
Primer and power costs are all roughly the same. Just how much powder
Bullets can vary greatly even within same caliber
There are powders other than H4350 that work well with the 6.5CM. Take a look at a reloading manual. I have found W760 to be a good substitute.
Another good option is the 308 Win. Tried and true with great longevity.
Another good option is the 308 Win. Tried and true with great longevity.
6 ARC with good factory options. Also companies like Copper Creek Cartridge to do load development for you. Then you can just buy it from them or they will give you the load data after 100 or 200 rounds purchased. Then all you have to do is buy those components. Easier Button.
If we’re just talking about staying supersonic to 1,000 yards, .223 with heavies.
It’ll get there. .22 bullets are cheaper. Lowest powder consumption. Good brass abounds. Mediocre brass is everywhere.
I don’t actually own a 6.5 Creedmoor, but I must say that I am both shocked and alarmed that H4350 is the only powder that will work with it. One would think that they would have made the shooting public aware of this.
It’ll get there. .22 bullets are cheaper. Lowest powder consumption. Good brass abounds. Mediocre brass is everywhere.
I don’t actually own a 6.5 Creedmoor, but I must say that I am both shocked and alarmed that H4350 is the only powder that will work with it. One would think that they would have made the shooting public aware of this.
Standard 223 , or for a little more oomph if you reload.223 Ackley improved with 7-8 twist.
22-26 grains of powder, 25-35 cents per boolit.
For my old eyes, however, spotting impacts on freshly painted steel can get difficult at 700 and further w/224 bullets, particularly if there is much mirage to deal with.
Realistically, how much shooting are you going to do at 1k?
All reloading components have, and continue to go up in price. Stock up whenever you can.
22-26 grains of powder, 25-35 cents per boolit.
For my old eyes, however, spotting impacts on freshly painted steel can get difficult at 700 and further w/224 bullets, particularly if there is much mirage to deal with.
Realistically, how much shooting are you going to do at 1k?
All reloading components have, and continue to go up in price. Stock up whenever you can.
Another vote for .223/5.56. You can actually get small primers and it uses about half the powder of .308 sized cartridges.
I narrowed it down to 6 Dasher or 6 BRA as maximum case capacity.
My personal choice was the 6 Dasher for this task.
The 6mm is probably the most utilized accuracy caliber in competition inside the 1000 yd limit. Lots of match bullet choices.
My personal choice was the 6 Dasher for this task.
The 6mm is probably the most utilized accuracy caliber in competition inside the 1000 yd limit. Lots of match bullet choices.
6mm ARC with LeverEvolution powder, CCI 400’s, and Nosler 115 RDF’s. That’ll get you to 1K, and it’s extremely efficient, and uses less than 30gr of powder. I’m getting 2,575 FPS MV in my 16” bolt-action Christensen MPR w/ a thermal on it. Nasty combo for coyotes.
223 is a classic. 22/6GT or 22/6BR are pretty powder efficient if you wanted something with a standard bolt face and aren't trying to hot rod your reloads. Brass will be less available or non existant from budget brands, but take care of your brass and it should last you long enough that it will still be a good value.
Hodgdon H4350 Smokeless Gun Powder 8 lb
Hodgdon H4350 Extreme Extruded propellant is a burning speed that has been known to shooters for decades. During that time, Hodgdon has modernized H4350...
www.midwayusa.com Long throated 223 with the heavies. That’s what I did for mine. Get 1000 bullets of either 75 Eld-M, 80 ELD-M, 80 SMK or 80.5 Berger, 100-200 piece of Lapua brass and varget or XBR and you’re set. Long barrel life, no recoil, very easy to load.
Winchester StaBall 6.5 powder is your new best friend if you’re loading for anything from .22 Creed up to .308 Win. Basically anything short-action that’s based off the .308 Win case.
It’s way too slow for small cases like the ARC, GT, BR, etc… they need a faster powders like Varget, Lever, & CFE223.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is probably your best choice based on the parameter of wanting something that will get you to 1000 yards. Will the smaller calibers mentioned get there…yes BUT, your shooting location and ground conditions at the target need to be heavily considered. Soil in the target area needs to be very soft and dusty to see light weight bullet splash to allow for corrections. The typical 140 grain bullet used in most 6.5s has an advantage in this respect over the lighter bullets and more visible in more soil conditions.
Are you adding in cost of barrels and smithing? A 308 has twice the barrel life of a 6.5C or the faster 6mm. 223 AI is a small bump in performance with less barrel life. Personally I like 6BR to 1k.
50 BMG, you're not going to want to pull through trigger as many times as shooting a 6BR so a day out shooting will be cheap.
I don't run the numbers but I know if I go out shooting for a day I will shoot a whole lot less big magnums than small short action rounds. Something to think about in the total cost discussion.
I don't run the numbers but I know if I go out shooting for a day I will shoot a whole lot less big magnums than small short action rounds. Something to think about in the total cost discussion.
You get what you pay for in this game. You can certainly save a few pennies per load using shitty powder instead of H4350, but its foolish. If you buy in bulk its cheaper.
Time
Money
Quality
Pick 2.
Reloading is not going to save you any money. You can easily spend $10K+ in reloading equipment to speed up the process while maintaining quality. Unless you already have good equipment the ROI is not there.
If you don't shoot a ton, buy factory ammo and sell the brass to offset cost. You would need to shoot more than 2-3000 rounds of match ammo a year to even make reloading worth it. Its a time sink even if you have gucci shit. The break even cost is just not there for low volume shooters. Would you rather spend your time reloading or shooting? People who enjoy reloading have something wrong with them. Kinda like people who like getting kicked in the balls. Its a mental illness.
6.5CM is going to be better than a dasher (reloads or $3 custom ammo is only option) or .223. You have access to a wider range of ammo that has a higher BC and will cheat the wind better than any 6mm. Its also more versatile for hunting. Match .223 and 6.5CM is about the same price so you aren't really saving any money.
You can get really good, low SD match 6.5CM ammo with a .300+ G7 BC for $25 a box. Sell the brass and you are around $16-18 a box.
The only reason to reload is high volume shooter for cost savings and making ammo more accurate than you can buy. Banging steel at 1k does not require that level of precision for most people who aren't even capable of outshouting the equipment.
Time
Money
Quality
Pick 2.
Reloading is not going to save you any money. You can easily spend $10K+ in reloading equipment to speed up the process while maintaining quality. Unless you already have good equipment the ROI is not there.
If you don't shoot a ton, buy factory ammo and sell the brass to offset cost. You would need to shoot more than 2-3000 rounds of match ammo a year to even make reloading worth it. Its a time sink even if you have gucci shit. The break even cost is just not there for low volume shooters. Would you rather spend your time reloading or shooting? People who enjoy reloading have something wrong with them. Kinda like people who like getting kicked in the balls. Its a mental illness.
6.5CM is going to be better than a dasher (reloads or $3 custom ammo is only option) or .223. You have access to a wider range of ammo that has a higher BC and will cheat the wind better than any 6mm. Its also more versatile for hunting. Match .223 and 6.5CM is about the same price so you aren't really saving any money.
You can get really good, low SD match 6.5CM ammo with a .300+ G7 BC for $25 a box. Sell the brass and you are around $16-18 a box.
The only reason to reload is high volume shooter for cost savings and making ammo more accurate than you can buy. Banging steel at 1k does not require that level of precision for most people who aren't even capable of outshouting the equipment.
Everyone seems to be married to h4350. Yep it’s expensive. It must be ok because so many people preach its virtues.
I’ve had great luck with Superformance in the 6.5 Creedmoor, About half the price of h4350 and as a bonus, you get a good bit more velocity at no extra powder cost. Great SD’s and Fine accuracy. Everyone worries over temperature stability. I wonder if even that is a bit overblown since most who shoot for fun, and don’t use there target rifles for hunting, rarely if ever go shooting in extreme temperature shifts. It simply isn’t done.
So much for h4350 bashing.
As far as value, the 6mmARC, or possibly the 6.5 Grendel. Small cases but larger projectiles than the .223. Easier to spot hits/misses. I would have said, stick with the .223. Easy shooting and it is about the least expensive round used for precision shooting. Problem is, it truly is hard to spot the hits and misses at the far ranges. 6 BR or Dasher, good rounds for sure, but cases get a bit expensive compared to .223’s.
One more thought, uncommon calibers generally require costly reloading dies. Common rounds like the Creedmoor, .223 and .308 have dies that can be had for all but a song. That said, dies for these calibers run the gamet of costs. Some are inexpensive but some are all but in the realm of “if you have to ask, you can’t afford them” category.
As far as expense. Powders made by at the St. Mark’s, Florida powder company are going to be far less expensive than imported powders. St. Mark’s makes ball powders and as is known, ball powders have limitations. Still, besides Superformance, they make the Staball series which are worth giving a try.
I’ve had great luck with Superformance in the 6.5 Creedmoor, About half the price of h4350 and as a bonus, you get a good bit more velocity at no extra powder cost. Great SD’s and Fine accuracy. Everyone worries over temperature stability. I wonder if even that is a bit overblown since most who shoot for fun, and don’t use there target rifles for hunting, rarely if ever go shooting in extreme temperature shifts. It simply isn’t done.
So much for h4350 bashing.
As far as value, the 6mmARC, or possibly the 6.5 Grendel. Small cases but larger projectiles than the .223. Easier to spot hits/misses. I would have said, stick with the .223. Easy shooting and it is about the least expensive round used for precision shooting. Problem is, it truly is hard to spot the hits and misses at the far ranges. 6 BR or Dasher, good rounds for sure, but cases get a bit expensive compared to .223’s.
One more thought, uncommon calibers generally require costly reloading dies. Common rounds like the Creedmoor, .223 and .308 have dies that can be had for all but a song. That said, dies for these calibers run the gamet of costs. Some are inexpensive but some are all but in the realm of “if you have to ask, you can’t afford them” category.
As far as expense. Powders made by at the St. Mark’s, Florida powder company are going to be far less expensive than imported powders. St. Mark’s makes ball powders and as is known, ball powders have limitations. Still, besides Superformance, they make the Staball series which are worth giving a try.
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Are you talking about absolute cost or affordable compared to factory ammo?
Just loading rounds cheaply; pick one of the most common cartridges. One of the creedmoor’s will probably be the best compromise of all factors
Comparatively speaking; any reloaded ammo is cheaper than factory ammo so pick your favorite/most interesting cartridge
For the record, I LOVE my .22BR, but it’s a wildcat and a bit of a learning curve as far as dies and load data. Not terribly expensive to get started with. Lots of loads on Lapua brass (and have a buddy with an annealer).
For the guy who wants more than a .223, but less than a .22 Creedmoor in a .22, it’s not a bad way to fly.
Pretty good thread in the Reloading section too!
For the guy who wants more than a .223, but less than a .22 Creedmoor in a .22, it’s not a bad way to fly.
Pretty good thread in the Reloading section too!
Stop talking seriously. Superperformance?
Tell us you don't get out and shoot without telling us. If you cannot understand why temp stability is important you will never make it off the kiddy tabble. Go take a look outside today.
Please keep buying junk like that, staball and shooters world. Stay away from the varget, h4350 and N140. They are overpriced and people are just wasting their money....
Op ignore anything this dude has ever said. When he's not making bad military jokes who is giving bad shooting advice. He is clearly a shitty shooter with low standards who doesn't know the difference between. Good and bad ammo.
My Dad originally got into reloading back in the late 1940's because the ammo available was not loading the bullets that worked best on the game he was shooting. It really wasn't because of the cost itself.
Also, some of the calibers that he and I shot were discontinued for some years (220 swift) in the mid 60's, so the only way to keep shooting was to reload. That is true today for some. I have a 7mm STW that I shoot, you can get ammo now at roughly $140 per 20 rounds, so it is cheaper to reload.
As far as "temperature sensitive powders" go, we never had a problem with using them. Not really that hard to adjust for the conditions that you are shooting in.
Also, some of the calibers that he and I shot were discontinued for some years (220 swift) in the mid 60's, so the only way to keep shooting was to reload. That is true today for some. I have a 7mm STW that I shoot, you can get ammo now at roughly $140 per 20 rounds, so it is cheaper to reload.
As far as "temperature sensitive powders" go, we never had a problem with using them. Not really that hard to adjust for the conditions that you are shooting in.
For those suggesting the grendel, have you tried acquiring components for it very recently? I've tried. Most powders out there that work for it are either very temp sensitive or very very expensive. And the very very expensive ones are expensive because they're the least temp sensitive and overall good powders but they also happen to be very difficult to find in stock. Brass is also somewhat tough to find and somewhat expensive. I just got into the grendel and already trying to get out of it.
I will suggest 308. It has a huge amount of different factory options and most of the factory ammo options are good. Some decent quality ammo can still be found at a buck per round or maybe slightly more and leave you with great fireformed brass.
That takes care of the brass, now you're left with powder and bullets. But there's so many options here too that I'm sure you'll find something.
The other option is probably a 223 but I'm not entirely sure on factory ammo options or how good they are (for their brass) if found in stock. I keep mentioning factory ammo but that's because I like to acquire my brass that way. You shoot some decent ammo and it leaves you with brass already fireformed.
I'm no expert though and I know for a fact others here have way more experience loading.
I will suggest 308. It has a huge amount of different factory options and most of the factory ammo options are good. Some decent quality ammo can still be found at a buck per round or maybe slightly more and leave you with great fireformed brass.
That takes care of the brass, now you're left with powder and bullets. But there's so many options here too that I'm sure you'll find something.
The other option is probably a 223 but I'm not entirely sure on factory ammo options or how good they are (for their brass) if found in stock. I keep mentioning factory ammo but that's because I like to acquire my brass that way. You shoot some decent ammo and it leaves you with brass already fireformed.
I'm no expert though and I know for a fact others here have way more experience loading.
I'd say 22 br honestly. Lapua or alpha brass last forever, 29-32gr of powder, can use anything from H4895 to H4350 burn rate. 90gr sierra smk are dirt cheap. 6br as well, bullets are just a lil more expensive, and harder to find due to demand.
This
This. To 1k reliably is not really the 223s best purpose.
Plenty of powders for the creed . This is what hodgdon lists, plenty more options by other makers .
Another vote for .223 heavy bullets or 6.5 CM. I shoot both. I don't have access to 1000yds or weather where temp stability is an issue. You have choices beyond H4350 for 6.5CM. I'm currently using Big Game but Shooter's World has a 4350 variant and as mentioned before Winchester has choices. All at better prices then Hodgdon.
I went through this recentishly, taking into account all variables came up with this conclusion (this was pre 22/6ARC and didn't consider 22 Valkyrie).
Definitely a few assumptions and a lot of caveats, but from memory this is what I found.
223AI is easily the best performance per reload cost, straight 223 is the better option for easy of reloading though.
Performance at 1000yards is lacking though. 22-204 would be even better performance but burning almost as much powder as 22BR.
308 would be next as cost is very similar to other centrefires but longer BBL life.
Next is a toss up depending on what brass you run.
Quality brass: 22BR is king due to barrel life, BRA/Dasher isn't far behind and 6mm isn't much different either.
Cheap brass: 6.5CM is pretty cheap to feed if you are happy with/able to pick up Hornady (or similar) brass cheap.
22GT is tied with 22BR if you use Hornady brass.
22CM is a possibility with a few caveats, downloading it to Dasher/GT speeds and sourcing cheap brass.
I think you could probably make the argument something like 6ARC, 22 Valkyrie or some wildcat like 6-223, 25-223 is similar price to 223 but better performance, but definitely an unknown.
The 22s are usually cheaper than 6mms due to cheaper bullets and the BR/GT variants aren't necessarily barrel burners.
Definitely a few assumptions and a lot of caveats, but from memory this is what I found.
223AI is easily the best performance per reload cost, straight 223 is the better option for easy of reloading though.
Performance at 1000yards is lacking though. 22-204 would be even better performance but burning almost as much powder as 22BR.
308 would be next as cost is very similar to other centrefires but longer BBL life.
Next is a toss up depending on what brass you run.
Quality brass: 22BR is king due to barrel life, BRA/Dasher isn't far behind and 6mm isn't much different either.
Cheap brass: 6.5CM is pretty cheap to feed if you are happy with/able to pick up Hornady (or similar) brass cheap.
22GT is tied with 22BR if you use Hornady brass.
22CM is a possibility with a few caveats, downloading it to Dasher/GT speeds and sourcing cheap brass.
I think you could probably make the argument something like 6ARC, 22 Valkyrie or some wildcat like 6-223, 25-223 is similar price to 223 but better performance, but definitely an unknown.
The 22s are usually cheaper than 6mms due to cheaper bullets and the BR/GT variants aren't necessarily barrel burners.
If you want to play with Wildcats maybe 6.5GT is worth considering, cheaper Hornady brass available, less powder burnt the 6.5CM and should give excellent barrel life.
I'm biased against the BRs, Dasher, GTs as brass isn't easy to source for me and I hate loosing brass as it is without it being unicorn brass.
If it weren't for that I'd say 22BR is all I'd ever run.
I'm biased against the BRs, Dasher, GTs as brass isn't easy to source for me and I hate loosing brass as it is without it being unicorn brass.
If it weren't for that I'd say 22BR is all I'd ever run.
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22 bullets that are not as good as 6mm that are not.as good as 6.5mm are the same cost. Go lookup berger 85.5 or 90 atips.
22 cal is a horrible reccomendation for 1000y and people suggesting it should be ignored outright. You aren't saving money and the performance is garbage compared to an average 6.5cm factory load.
The hit percentage difference is offnthe chart as well. Run the numbers of a 85.5 at 3050 vs a 153 berger at 2700. Not to mention barrel life.
22 cal is a horrible reccomendation for 1000y and people suggesting it should be ignored outright. You aren't saving money and the performance is garbage compared to an average 6.5cm factory load.
The hit percentage difference is offnthe chart as well. Run the numbers of a 85.5 at 3050 vs a 153 berger at 2700. Not to mention barrel life.
Do you lay awake at night because someone disagrees with you?
Do you lay awake at night thinking about me? You sure as fuck don't shoot guns, your troll game is shit and you can't debate the merits of the post. No one cares what you think or have to say. Bye.
I shoot. A lot. I don’t base my personality around what others think about me. You’re just annoying as fuck thinking you know everything. You feel so fucking right about everything, you should have a talk show like Doctor Laura where you take calls. Fucking muppet.
I'm in the same boat with a small different, it'll be in a suppressed 20-22in rifle. Trying to decide between 22br, 6br, 6gt or building another 6.5cm. I'm leaning toward 6gt for the ease of seeing impacts and misses at 900 and 1000 yard. Already have a 20in and a 22in suppressed 6.5 and they work beautifully at this distance.
A friend who is far more particular about working up loads and dope has been doing some pretty impressive stuff (well, at least to me impressive) with a 6x47. To the point I’ll take a closer look at it if I ever wear the barrel out on my BR.
As for the caliber debate, as far as the little steel matches i shoot go, my .22BR has beat plenty of 6.5’s and has been beat by plenty of 6.5’s. I ran the numbers before I jumped in and couldn’t tell just a helluva lot of difference, though I’d never call someone wrong for running one.
Maybe someone can show me (in MIL’s, not platitudes) where the difference in drop and drift was worth the powder and recoil…….
As for the caliber debate, as far as the little steel matches i shoot go, my .22BR has beat plenty of 6.5’s and has been beat by plenty of 6.5’s. I ran the numbers before I jumped in and couldn’t tell just a helluva lot of difference, though I’d never call someone wrong for running one.
Maybe someone can show me (in MIL’s, not platitudes) where the difference in drop and drift was worth the powder and recoil…….
The 6x47 has the same issues as the 6 creed. It's not an efficient design and there is too much case capacity using the go to powders. You can run it hot but it's harder to find a load it likes and you will be burning up barrels trying to find something it likes.
That's why everyone is shooting BR class cases and the GT. More efficient design, load development is non existent and you preserve barrel life for shooting when it matters. Unless you need screaming velocity ( 6xc) most people are way better off with a BR pushing a 105/109 at 28-2900 fps. Soft shooting, hard to get one to shoot bad ( using good componets) and is a winning combination in multiple shooting sports. It's easy mode. Let's you spend time and money focusing on other shit that matters.
The numbers don't lie. Run a 22br with the best 22 bullet vs a 6.5cm with the best 6.5 bullet. The difference in first round hit percentage from about 800 on out is substantial. Any change in wind or conditions will show this even more.
Guys like to waste money and burn up barrels for no reason I guess. Or their fundamentals are so bad they can't shoot a 6.5cm. You are already seeing top shooters move back to 6.5 and .25 cal for a reason. They don't like leaving points on the table.
That's why everyone is shooting BR class cases and the GT. More efficient design, load development is non existent and you preserve barrel life for shooting when it matters. Unless you need screaming velocity ( 6xc) most people are way better off with a BR pushing a 105/109 at 28-2900 fps. Soft shooting, hard to get one to shoot bad ( using good componets) and is a winning combination in multiple shooting sports. It's easy mode. Let's you spend time and money focusing on other shit that matters.
The numbers don't lie. Run a 22br with the best 22 bullet vs a 6.5cm with the best 6.5 bullet. The difference in first round hit percentage from about 800 on out is substantial. Any change in wind or conditions will show this even more.
Guys like to waste money and burn up barrels for no reason I guess. Or their fundamentals are so bad they can't shoot a 6.5cm. You are already seeing top shooters move back to 6.5 and .25 cal for a reason. They don't like leaving points on the table.
Your list of requirements seem to fit well with those of the .224 Valkyrie.
Valk is bout dead tho isn't it? I think 22arc with saami 7tw barrels shooting 88s at 2800+ will be the new hotness in these mini cases. It pretty much runs right with most prs dasher loads ballistically
