I'm thinking about ordering a new barreled action from Vudoo. ( Likely a 360 w 22" Bartien MTU. ) Admittedly, I don't have allot of experience with tuners on rimfires although I have used one with marginal results) on my Bergarra b14R. Question: All else being equal, Is the final accuracy potential of a 22" unthreaded barrel with clamp on tuner better than a 22" threaded barrel with a threaded tuner? Rigth now I'm leaning towards an unthreaded barrel and adding a tuner later if/when I feel the need.
- Thread starter WeeHooker
- Start date
For what it's worth, the shooters with the longest and most experience with tuners -- RFBR shooters -- use clamp on tuners and rarely, if ever, have threaded muzzles. Also, keep in mind most rimfire benchrest barrels are typically a little longer than 22" because barrels that are shorter are often less responsive to tuners.
I have 2 EC V2 tuners on my 2 B14R's. They both work great. A friend of mine has a DI Precision barreled action with a EC V2 tuner installed without a adaptor ( not cutting it down to 1/2" 28 ) That is the best setup IMO. Vudoo may can do the same. If you want a bolt on go with https://www.harrellsprecision.com/
All depends on if you want a tuner or not. Bottom line. Whether threaded or unthreaded is more accurate isn't something you can make a determination of just by that one thing. I have only had threaded barrels on my Vudoos and they have all been very accurate. My 22" MTU I got threaded 5/8-24 so I could run my ATS tuner on it and I run a thread protector on the rest of it when installed. My newest I got a 1.2" straight with a EC V2 tuner on it. The threading is 1" so no issues people worry about with 1/2-28 threading like the opening of the muzzle and effecting accuracy. That said my original 18" Kukri had a 1/2-28 threaded muzzle and was very accurate.
If you think you will use a tuner then figure out which one and get the rifle set up for it from Vudoo. If you are not sure then you can always get a clamp on down the road or get the muzzle threaded and run it that way until you figure out what you want.
If you think you will use a tuner then figure out which one and get the rifle set up for it from Vudoo. If you are not sure then you can always get a clamp on down the road or get the muzzle threaded and run it that way until you figure out what you want.
Clamp on tuners have a maximum allowed diameter. So if you're doing a 1.2 straight, you won't be able to clamp on unless really turning down the muzzle.
Tuners themselves have so much debate on them, but I'm in the camp that the bench rest folks know what they're doing. I've done all the tuners, ec v1, ec v2, harrell's, and holeshot. The last 2 being the clamp on tuners.
The tuners that move minimally near the muzzle like the ec v1/v2, do tune the barrel wrt to harmonics but I don't feel have the weight/extension that the benchrest folks talk about which is around positive compensation.
I personally for PRS matches went to the ec v1/v2 as they're not fugly and integrate with the barrel well.
I find the ec v2 tuner more repeatable than v1 given the spring tension on the threads.
Tuners themselves have so much debate on them, but I'm in the camp that the bench rest folks know what they're doing. I've done all the tuners, ec v1, ec v2, harrell's, and holeshot. The last 2 being the clamp on tuners.
The tuners that move minimally near the muzzle like the ec v1/v2, do tune the barrel wrt to harmonics but I don't feel have the weight/extension that the benchrest folks talk about which is around positive compensation.
I personally for PRS matches went to the ec v1/v2 as they're not fugly and integrate with the barrel well.
I find the ec v2 tuner more repeatable than v1 given the spring tension on the threads.
You can't turn a tuner off by leaving it at the zero setting. Once you add the weight of a tuner to a barrel it will have some effect on the way the gun shoots. The numbers are meaningless other than for reference. Having said that, I seriously doubt any tuner will have much effect on a 1.2 dia. 22 to 24 inch barrel.
try it for your self if you are shooting 5 shots in a single hole then don't bother you are just not going to get better than that . if not try it at 160 ish if you do see a difference it only cost you a few dollars to find out for your self one way or the other
I have a 24” 1.25 diameter barrel with a cortina v2 tuner. It definitely has an effect on it.
My friend has a 24" 13 tw done by DI Precision with a EC V2. It tunes great. Another thing about a tuner, you can tune in your next lot of ammo, then the next one. I have done it with my B14R's. Why do you think everyone is going to tuners.
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Eggsactly that’s what I was thinking a tuner is there to tune if you want to tune it.
I'm not moving the tuner frequently. I retune for the next lot of ammo. I have done it with 2 of my guns with 2 different ammo's. 3 lots of SK Long Range in one gun. 2 lots of Eley club in another gun. 3 of my friends are doing it with their guns also.
You will see the groups tighten up and open back up as you turn the tuner. Then you will see a cluster of all good groups
I start shooting at 50yds with 3 shot groups, moving tuner 5 marks for each group. If 2 shots are not touching, move on to the next setting. I take the best groups from 50yds to 200yds and fine tune there, looking for vertical. You can tune the vertical out of your groups, the best you can. I have done it. Tuner work
I understand the comment was rhetorical, one that doesn't require an answer. But it probably wouldn't be shocking if a significant number of those trying tuners are doing so because they are unsatisfied with the performance of inconsistent ammo. The hope is that a tuner will solve that problem while significantly shrinking their groups.
They may even believe that success with a tuner is little more than shooting groups over a number of settings and then selecting the setting that matches the smallest group, failing to grasp that a successful and repeatable tune requires considerable testing and verification.
They don't appreciate yet that a tuner won't fix ammo that's inconsistent and that this is a problem that's only exacerbated as distance increases. For BR shooters successfully using tuners, when using good ammo and it's set correctly tuners improve scores enough to see the difference but not make anyone believe they work magic.
It wouldn't be surprising if those who've tried tuners and failed to find a successful and repeatable tune would outnumber those who haven't. For reasons that seem obvious, people in general are reluctant to admit failure. That outcome happens as often, if not more, than it doesn't. Threads or posts about tuner fails are infrequent and rare. At the very least, as long as expectations are too high and and tuner users don't shoot ammo that's good and consistent, they will be unlikely to see meaningful improvement, regardless whether they admit it.
Do you ever go back to zero and repeat the process?
I'm surely not afraid to admit failure. Without getting into lengthy boring stories, I am 50% on tuners, and for a time this spring, it was 25%, but I gave the Vudoo 22" MTU barrel a 2nd shot. But it was a time and ammo consuming adventure to make it work.
I had 2 Kidd 20" barrels threaded and slapped EC V2's on, they shot really well for their use before, I am not so sure I have ever wasted so much ammo for no or lesser gains. I pulled them, and cut and recrowned both to get them back to where they were.
So in my case there, I have no idea if I had the right ammo, or lacked the commitment to the project, or, if they were ever going to work. In retrospect, I wish I had tried different tuners instead of all EC V2's. Not remotely saying they are not good, but I think there are some other tuners out there that may have a little more adjustability.
If someone buys a tuner and pulls the plug on the endeavor, I sure as heck aren't going to lecture or persuade them to continue.
I very new to this tuning game and this has been my experience so far.
I guess I am doing the tuner thing all wrong. How do you tune your gun? What ammo do you use? Will all match ammo shoot the same or will it only shoot the ammo used to tune? What do you do when you run out of that ammo/lot?
Here is a tuner test on Saturday of a 23.5" 1.25 krieger. You can see what a tuner will do to a straight shaft barrel. Tuber is a Gen 1 EC Tuner.
That is how I do mine at 50yds. The V2 has 50 marks per turn. I go 5 at a time, pick the best, then go 1 or 2 at a time, each way to fine tune.
I thought a tuner, tuned the ammo to shoot the best it will shoot in your gun. But others are saying you just tuning the gun. I guess, then it will shoot all match ammo. What am I missing?
I thought a tuner, tuned the ammo to shoot the best it will shoot in your gun. But others are saying you just tuning the gun. I guess, then it will shoot all match ammo. What am I missing?
Different ammo will TYPICALLY be a different tune. With a velocity of the same or a couple FPS of each other it is very possible it will have the same tuning number. It it is faster or slower than tuning node will be different. I check every 2 lines. It's a bigger sample, but don't keep you guessing as much.
That is what I thought. I have tuned for different lots and get them shooting as well as the first. Different ammo will be a different tune due speed, bullet and other factors. I don't understand tune once and never touch the tuner again. I have 1 brick left of my tuned ammo. After a match this Sat. I will retune with a new case of ammo. it is shooting close, but needs to be fine tuned.
Thanks for the input
You are welcome.
Tune to your new case and you should be good. There is always a possibility with extreme temp swings you might want to re check tune. 20* winter, 50* spring, 90* summer and 60* fall. It will be close just a good piece of mind.
Tune to your new case and you should be good. There is always a possibility with extreme temp swings you might want to re check tune. 20* winter, 50* spring, 90* summer and 60* fall. It will be close just a good piece of mind.
I'm thinking the target shows results of two or more shots at different settings, presumably settings that are incremental.
At the risk of missing the obvious, what does this target show? Is one or more of the settings showing the correct tuner setting? If so, is it repeatable?
The target test shows what 2 line movements per movement does to the groups. Most are 2 shots or 3 shots per setting. nd showing per revolution of the tuner. There are people that say Fat 1.25'" barrels are not able to be tuned. This target shows just the opposite.
The tuner setting is 100% repeatable for this rifle and setup. I have found the EC Gen 1 Tuners to be that way. The Gen 2 as well when it is a machined thread on the barrel. If the 1/2-28 or 5/8-24 adapter is used it might not be exactly repeatable.
It will depend on how it shoots without a tuner. bare barrel and it shoots with very little vertical then the amount of weight you would need on the muzzle might only be in the 2-3 oz. range. remember the tuner is to time the bullets exit at the crown and needs to have the barrel pointing in the up position when the bullets exits.
of course, you can just kill the barrel movement and put a ton of weight on it. but then finding ammo that will shoot will be harder.
Lee
Tuning is about bullet exit timing. you are timing the barrel's upward movement and bullet's exit from the barrel at the highest obtainable position for that barrel. by adjusting the weight mass forward or backward (in most cases forward) you can alter the barrels movement speed. with weight mass closer to the crown, it is faster with-it father away it is slower. now to find the setting that places the mass at the best position you will need ammo that is consistent. consistent being it has the least amount of vertical if shot in say several rifles/barrels. best way to find out how consistent is to shoot the ammo without a tuner. some examples all shot in the same barrel/rifle. as you can see lot 1962 has a little more vertical. also note how the barrel/rifle held the vertical line not much horizontal. POA was center of the bull. end result after tuning with the same lots and barrel/rifle. now if I didn't know how the ammo shot without a tuner, I could have been chasing my tail and burning up ammo that just wasn't consistent enough to tune with. always remember use good consistent ammo to tune with. once you find the setting that can shoot different lots equally compared against each other most likely you won't have to touch the tuner again. as a plus finding good ammo will be easier as well.
Lee
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What do groups with the same number of shots with this same lot of ammo look like without the tuner? Are the bullet holes consistent, that is always or touching or nearly so or is there as much paper between them as shown in some of the tuner groups?
The groups were OK 1/2"-3/4" 10 shot groups at 50y, 1-1.5" at 100y & 5-6" at 200. I want the best possible group I can get at all ranges. You can improve the group size of consistent ammo with a tuner. It's squeezing every smidge out of the barrel harmonica to make things as equal as possible. What this tuned lot of ammo did was string the 50 to a consistent .3-.4 (sub 1/2') 10 shots at 50, Sub 1" at 100y and 2.5-3" at 200y for 10 shots.
Knowing the ammo is first consistent and shoots good is the first part of it. This is not a smoke and mirrors thing. You will have to watch a tuner work to know what it is truly capable of. Go to Lapua, Kilgouh or Anschutz AN and test ammo. Buy 2 bricks of the what tested the best in your rifle and shoot them to distance. Then take that same lot and TUNE it. it will tighten up and be more consistent that it tested group wise.
The Eley 10X I was tuning I knew was good ammo. It had an Extreme Spread of 16 fps and a SD of 4.5 fps. It was good random lot of ammo. I was able to buy 5 more bricks of it & they had almost 400 boxes available. I spent 1 hour with a buddy on the range tuning and checking at every 2 marks. I stayed behind the rifle to keep my cheek weld. He made notes, turned the tuner spotted impacts and loaded mags. All I had to do was run the bolt and focus on a POA to be consistent with a consistent trigger press.
I am NOT a Bench Rest shooter. I am a NRL22, PRS RF shooter. There is enough variables in plate/ target size that a 1/2" group at 50 and 1" group at 100 is good enough. I want to know that the bullet is directly behind the dot of my reticle when I press the trigger. this allows me to focus on a great wind call and proper position building to be able to make the best shot possible. Having a tuned rifle to a specific lot of ammo is one less thing in your mind. It's not the rifle. It's not the ammo. You made that impact with great execution of your skills.
This only applies if you are at a setting that only shoots good. as you probably seen for yourself that there are multiple settings that seem to shoot really good. but only one that is truly the setting for the barrel/rifle setup.
Lee
Defender32, thanks for that explanation. I suppose for clarity I should have asked earlier what distance the target shown in post #21 was shot.
Initially I thought it may have been 50 yards as that's usually a more reliable distance at which to tune. It must be 100. Given the size of the three shot groups, it's difficult to imagine a tuner dispersing good ammo that much at 50.
Initially I thought it may have been 50 yards as that's usually a more reliable distance at which to tune. It must be 100. Given the size of the three shot groups, it's difficult to imagine a tuner dispersing good ammo that much at 50.
What distance is that? Please tell me its 100yd?
I tune with a chrono because my ammo is so consistent that there are many times that I will get 3 rounds in a row with the same velocity. So I want to know how the tuner is affecting my rifle/barrel/ammo with a relatively decent amount of ES. So usually I will keep shooting the groups until I get a spread of 15-20fps and see how it looks.
I spent a lot of time tuning, and usually will find 2-3 nodes, and then I'll test each node with a few different ammos. In my experience I've been at the same node setting for all my ammo. I haven't changed it across ammo.
Fast forward a year, I had 3 different lots of ammo - shooting from 1055 to 1115 (Lapua Long Range), tuner still set to the same setting as before.
I shot a bunch of groups. Then I pulled off the tuner, and shot it again with all the ammo. The tuner groups were all about 20% smaller.
So while I really hate the time it takes tuning, I do firmly believe it works.
I spent a lot of time tuning, and usually will find 2-3 nodes, and then I'll test each node with a few different ammos. In my experience I've been at the same node setting for all my ammo. I haven't changed it across ammo.
Fast forward a year, I had 3 different lots of ammo - shooting from 1055 to 1115 (Lapua Long Range), tuner still set to the same setting as before.
I shot a bunch of groups. Then I pulled off the tuner, and shot it again with all the ammo. The tuner groups were all about 20% smaller.
So while I really hate the time it takes tuning, I do firmly believe it works.
75y tuning. 50y is to close as most all match ammo shoot good at 50. 100y you take the chance of adding in environmental variables. 75y you are splitting the difference and have a better understand of what the ammo is doing. Having someone else doing the tuner movements and watching the wind makes a great difference as well. This process took in the 1 hour range to complete early in the morning. we saw a 2* temp rise across all shots.
This is testing RWS 10 shots at 100y with tuner at zero. I was lot testing as I am going to get away from the Eley due to the wax gumming up the firing pin channel on the RimX. I ordered 5 bricks of this lot and it will be tuned the same way when the 10X is gone.
I was recently in the market for a high end 22LR rifle. Rem-X was high on the list and this was one of the things about it that made me wonder.
It's truly not a HUGE issue, but if you're going to be shooting in COLD weather it can be. The beauty of the RimX is how simple it is to clean the bolt nose and firing pin 30-60 sec after shooting a stage and you are good. It's just one less thing to think about in my book. Lapua, SK & WRS all use something other than a bees way for lube. It just doesn't gum up as bad.
I think you are making a mistake by tuning at any distance past 50yds.first. if you can dial in the tuner at 50yds. and it is consistent. at longer distances IMO it will be a matter of dialing in the scope and wind reading. some examples with a rifle tuned at 50yds. validating the tuner setting with 3 different lots of CX 2 shots each for the 6 shots groups. at a match dialing scope at 100yds. warm up target back-to-back 5 shot groups. this was done with a completely different lot of CX. same rifle 50 shot group at 100yds. new lot of CX never shot before in rifle tuner same setting for the last 7 years. a quarter is .955 in diameter. examples of a tuner set correctly.
Lee
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I also have a new V22 setup w a 22” mtu barrel and an ATS Tuner. I’m new to the tuner setup and have no idea which order to work in zero’ing my rifle. I have a vortex 5-25 on it, do I zero scope the rifle before the tuner or zero w the scope and tuner? Any assistance or suggestions really appreciate. Thnx
Set the tuner at zero and zero the scope. when make adjustments as you tune you will see shots migrate around POA don't touch the scope adjustment until you feel you have the correct tuner setting. best tuner setting will put POI at the highest point from POA this is when you make the scope correction.
Lee
Thank you! would u believe thats the first time ive found seen/read instructions on the process
ATS tuner instructions are on their site but zeroing and then tuning is one of those simple things most do and not think about.
Tuner Instruction Guide
PATENT PENDING KINETIC SECURITY SOLUTIONS - ADAPTIVE TUNING SYSTEM INSTALLATION & TUNING - PLEASE READ NOTE: If you install 3 set screws, the unit will be more likely to vibrate loose. ONLY USE 1 SET SCREW! - One (1) spare set screw has been provided. Prior to installing...
www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com
Perfect, yes i do also have a few cans i wanted to try with it. (Q El camino, Switchback, Sparrow) Those directions answered the questions as to when the suppressor goes on. Thank you very much for the link.ATS tuner instructions are on their site but zeroing and then tuning is one of those simple things most do and not think about.
Tuner Instruction Guide
PATENT PENDING KINETIC SECURITY SOLUTIONS - ADAPTIVE TUNING SYSTEM INSTALLATION & TUNING - PLEASE READ NOTE: If you install 3 set screws, the unit will be more likely to vibrate loose. ONLY USE 1 SET SCREW! - One (1) spare set screw has been provided. Prior to installing...www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com
You're welcome. what I mentioned is just basic information as Rob pointed in another reply.
Lee
Ironically i did find other threads about the tuner itself but not.ome that also mentiomed scope.and suppressor. I sincerely appreciate anyone offering help. Thanks again
