Gunsmithing Bighorn Shouldered Barrels

[Conrad]

Which Smith’s are clambering shouldered barrels ready to spin onto Bighorn TL3’s?

 

[James1529]

Jay at patriot valley arms

 

[Conrad]

Any one else?

 

[LRI]

We can do it. Just can't guarantee where/how the engraving will time up.

 

[rookie7]

Does this mean if someone buys a TL3 they can order a barrel from a smith and put it on themselves and the headspace will be right without using a barrel nut? Or is this assuming the use of a barrel nut?

Thanks

 

[padom]

Does this mean if someone buys a TL3 they can order a barrel from a smith and put it on themselves and the headspace will be right without using a barrel nut? Or is this assuming the use of a barrel nut?

Thanks

You need nothing but a vise and action wrench. Screw it on and torque it. No barrel nut or gauges. Headspace is set.

 

[padom]

Jay at patriot valley arms

Josh not Jay at Patriot Valley Arms...

 

[rookie7]

You need nothing but a vise and action wrench. Screw it on and torque it. No barrel nut or gauges. Headspace is set.

Well that's just awesome! Is this possible with most custom actions out there? Or is a Bighorn just machined that precise?

I am guessing this isn't possible with factory Remington actions because machining isn't as consistent or square?

Thanks

 

[Supersubes]

Well that's just awesome! Is this possible with most custom actions out there? Or is a Bighorn just machined that precise?

I am guessing this isn't possible with factory Remington actions because machining isn't as consistent or square?

Thanks

Yes, the bighorn is just that precise, to include where the thread starts in the front of the action.

 

[Temper]

We can do it. Just can't guarantee where/how the engraving will time up.

Couldn't you just spin it on any TL3 action you have laying around and mark where to put the engraving?

 

[Supersubes]

Couldn't you just spin it on any TL3 action you have laying around and mark where to put the engraving?

Theyre not a stocking dealer of bighorns, at least not according to their website.

 

[LRI]

Originally posted by LongRifles, Inc. View Post
We can do it. Just can't guarantee where/how the engraving will time up.



Couldn't you just spin it on any TL3 action you have laying around and mark where to put the engraving?


Answering this is not Yes or No I'm afraid.


Lets preface this a bit. Guy buys what he feels is best parts available/what he can afford. Guy wants what he feels is best shop to do work. The expectation being sterling performance on paper/steel/fur and fit and finish work that validates his purchase.

Accurate enough description?


Now, from the shop perspective: If I am to truly advertise the ability to offer a higher standard, be it with how the rifle shoots and how it looks, then I have an obligation to do the best job I can with the tools I have at my disposal. My shop is very, very well equipped for this kind of work.

With all this fancy crap on my floor there is one thing I am here to tell you that I absolutely cannot do. I cannot predict exactly where a barrel is going to end up relative to clock position when its installed on an action. ANY action.

Here's the challenges before anyone doing this:

• Receiver hardness
• Recoil lug hardness
• Barrel hardness
• Receiver thread start position (clock position of the lead edge of the thread)
• Receiver face to bolt face tolerance
• Thread fit
• Amount of barrel shoulder against recoil lug
• Type of lubricant used during assembly
• Volume of lubricant used during assembly
• Torque wrench error
• Different torque wrenches being used by myself and end user during a barrel install/swap
• Level of burnishing/work hardening of barrel tennon and receiver tennon threads during assembly
• Percentage of thread flank on both the receiver and barrel

Now the relevance of this:

Receiver and Lug hardness. Harder steel moves around less than softer stuff. Lets do a little math. We'll use a 16 pitch thread for the example as its most common. For every rotation the linear distance traveled is .0625" or 1/16" of an inch. 360* in a circle. so, if we crunch the numbers we get .00009" worth of linear travel per degree of rotation. That's pretty small. So, lets bump it up to a meaningful value. Lets go .0005". That's half of one thousands of an inch. The perspective on this is take a hair off your skull and measure it. Roughly .0035" for most. Split that hair 7 times. Can we agree that is not easy to do? I think we can. That is the value were talking about here and we don't have the luxury of being able to grind things to get it. (because grinding is an extremely accurate way to tolerance a feature or part)

So, .0005" That works out to 5 and 1/2 degrees worth of rotation on the barrel. As I mentioned, I have a very sophisticated shop. I cannot in good conscience promise to hold that value in terms of clock position once a barrel is tightened up. I've tried and it just does not work. The 13 variables listed above illustrate what I have to solve in order to ensure it. To solve those would mean considerably more infrastructure to what I already have. Barrel jobs would easily cost over $1000 in labor alone. The industry will not support that.

Maybe its splitting hairs but I know I've been confronted about it by clients in the past. -refer back to the opening statement I made here about expectations of a client. I have the fastest rotation on barreled action work in this industry.

If the collective audience is demanding "custom" then allow us to do the work.


C.

 

[Conrad]

I was wondering the same question, and that is an excellent answer. I think I'd simply opt to not have the barrel engraved, unless there is a rule against this?

 

[Temper]

Originally posted by LongRifles, Inc. View Post
We can do it. Just can't guarantee where/how the engraving will time up.



Couldn't you just spin it on any TL3 action you have laying around and mark where to put the engraving?


Answering this is not Yes or No I'm afraid.


Lets preface this a bit. Guy buys what he feels is best parts available/what he can afford. Guy wants what he feels is best shop to do work. The expectation being sterling performance on paper/steel/fur and fit and finish work that validates his purchase.

Accurate enough description?


Now, from the shop perspective: If I am to truly advertise the ability to offer a higher standard, be it with how the rifle shoots and how it looks, then I have an obligation to do the best job I can with the tools I have at my disposal. My shop is very, very well equipped for this kind of work.

With all this fancy crap on my floor there is one thing I am here to tell you that I absolutely cannot do. I cannot predict exactly where a barrel is going to end up relative to clock position when its installed on an action. ANY action.

Here's the challenges before anyone doing this:

• Receiver hardness
• Recoil lug hardness
• Barrel hardness
• Receiver thread start position (clock position of the lead edge of the thread)
• Receiver face to bolt face tolerance
• Thread fit
• Amount of barrel shoulder against recoil lug
• Type of lubricant used during assembly
• Volume of lubricant used during assembly
• Torque wrench error
• Different torque wrenches being used by myself and end user during a barrel install/swap
• Level of burnishing/work hardening of barrel tennon and receiver tennon threads during assembly
• Percentage of thread flank on both the receiver and barrel

Now the relevance of this:

Receiver and Lug hardness. Harder steel moves around less than softer stuff. Lets do a little math. We'll use a 16 pitch thread for the example as its most common. For every rotation the linear distance traveled is .0625" or 1/16" of an inch. 360* in a circle. so, if we crunch the numbers we get .00009" worth of linear travel per degree of rotation. That's pretty small. So, lets bump it up to a meaningful value. Lets go .0005". That's half of one thousands of an inch. The perspective on this is take a hair off your skull and measure it. Roughly .0035" for most. Split that hair 7 times. Can we agree that is not easy to do? I think we can. That is the value were talking about here and we don't have the luxury of being able to grind things to get it. (because grinding is an extremely accurate way to tolerance a feature or part)

So, .0005" That works out to 5 and 1/2 degrees worth of rotation on the barrel. As I mentioned, I have a very sophisticated shop. I cannot in good conscience promise to hold that value in terms of clock position once a barrel is tightened up. I've tried and it just does not work. The 13 variables listed above illustrate what I have to solve in order to ensure it. To solve those would mean considerably more infrastructure to what I already have. Barrel jobs would easily cost over $1000 in labor alone. The industry will not support that.

Maybe its splitting hairs but I know I've been confronted about it by clients in the past. -refer back to the opening statement I made here about expectations of a client. I have the fastest rotation on barreled action work in this industry.

If the collective audience is demanding "custom" then allow us to do the work.


C.

Thanks for the detailed response. I knew a lot went into it but didn't think that many variables were involved. It just seems weird that you can just spin up a barrel without an action that would headspace but that you can't get an engraving to match up all the time.

 

[LRI]

I was wondering the same question, and that is an excellent answer. I think I'd simply opt to not have the barrel engraved, unless there is a rule against this?

The BATFE, as I have come to understand it, has a ruling regarding this. Barrels are supposed to have a Maker's Mark. They are also supposed to have the cartridge they are chambered in identified. On an action the depth of engraving is somewhere around .005 (minimum) for things like the Manufacturer, Model, Serial Number, and importer (if applicable).

I am not certain if they are that picky about the depth of the engraving on a barrel, but it's not worth ever having the discussion imo. The less "Uncle Sugar" finds to ferk with me about during an audit, the better in my book.

This is why I use a 4 axis mill instead of burning the cartridge with an electro-etch stencil. I have much, much more control with the mill.

Thanks.

C.

 

[ah1356]

The BATFE, as I have come to understand it, has a ruling regarding this. Barrels are supposed to have a Maker's Mark. They are also supposed to have the cartridge they are chambered in identified. On an action the depth of engraving is somewhere around .005 (minimum) for things like the Manufacturer, Model, Serial Number, and importer (if applicable).

I am not certain if they are that picky about the depth of the engraving on a barrel, but it's not worth ever having the discussion imo. The less "Uncle Sugar" finds to ferk with me about during an audit, the better in my book.

This is why I use a 4 axis mill instead of burning the cartridge with an electro-etch stencil. I have much, much more control with the mill.

Thanks.

C.

Could you rotate the text 90 degrees so it is perpendicular to the bore, like a cigar band? If you repeat "LRI 6.5x47 LRI 6.5x47 " both would be visible regardless of clocking. It might look a little unconventional, but probably better than markings parallel to the bore and clocked slightly off.

 

[bohem]

I can do it, I have an artifact from Bighorn. It works and they time up within +/- a space that works out perfectly for the necessity of barrel engraving.

And at 20 tpi, or 0.050 in/turn

0.050/360 = 0.000138 inches per degree
Keeping it within 2 degrees is easy when the headspace is within 2 tenths. The lineup issue is not the machining or the accuracy of the machine tools, it's the accuracy of the human eyeball used to setup the engraving reference line.