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Blackwater II - ??

9H_Cracka

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2005
2,796
9
WAY off base (COS CO)
NEW YORK – As American commanders meet this week for the Afghanistan review, Obama is hiring military contractors at a rate that would make Bush blush. Tim Shorrock on the Blackwater heirs.

Top U.S. commanders are meeting this week to plan for the next phase of the Afghanistan war. In Iraq, meanwhile, gains are tentative and in danger of unraveling.

Both wars have been fought with the help of private military and intelligence contractors. But despite the troubles of Blackwater in particular – charges of corruption and killing of civilians—and continuing controversy over military outsourcing in general, private sector armies are as involved as ever.

Without much notice or debate, the Obama administration has greatly expanded the outsourcing of key parts of the U.S.-led counterinsurgency wars in the Middle East and Africa, and as a result, for its secretive air war and special operations missions around the world, the U.S. has become increasingly reliant on a new breed of specialized companies that are virtually unknown to the American public, yet carry out vital U.S. missions abroad.

Companies such as Blackbird Technologies, Glevum Associates, K2 Solutions, and others have won hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military and intelligence contracts in recent years to provide technology, information on insurgents, Special Forces training, and personnel rescue. They win their work through the large, established prime contractors, but are tasked with missions only companies with specific skills and background in covert and counterinsurgency can accomplish.

Some observers fear that the widespread use of contractors for U.S. counterinsurgency efforts in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Horn of Africa could deepen the secrecy surrounding the American presence in those regions, making it harder for Congress to provide proper oversight.

Even in Iraq, where the U.S. has ended combat operations, the government is "greatly expanding" its use of private security companies, creating "an entirely new role for contractors on the battlefield," Michael Thibault, the co-chairman of the federal Commission on Wartime Contracting, recently warned Congress.

Blackbird, which is staffed by former CIA operatives, is a key contractor in a highly classified program that sends secret teams into enemy territory to rescue downed or captured U.S. soldiers.

Among the companies getting contracts is Blackbird, which is staffed by former CIA operatives, and is a key contractor in a highly classified program that sends secret teams into enemy territory to rescue downed or captured U.S. soldiers.

Glevum, meanwhile, fields a small army of analysts in Iraq and Afghanistan who provide the U.S. military with what the company opaquely describes as "information operations and influence activities."

And K2 is a highly sought-after subcontractor and trainer for the most secretive units of the U.S. Army Special Operations Command, including the SEAL team that rescued the crew of the Maersk Alabama from a gang of pirates last year. It is based near the Army's Special Forces headquarters in Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and was founded by Lane Kjellsen, a former Special Forces soldier.

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander of conventional and special forces in the war zones, is using contractors because "he wants an organization that reports directly to him," said a former top aide to the commander of the U.S. Special Operations Command, the umbrella organization for all Special Forces. "Everyone knows Petraeus can't execute his strategy without the private sector." The former aide spoke on the condition that he not be identified, saying his career could be jeopardized if he went public. The International Security Assistance Force, the general's home command, did not respond to a request for comment.

The use of contractors could become a serious problem if controversies about them are not addressed, a senior British official warned during a recent visit to Washington. Pauline Neville-Jones, the U.K.'s minister of state for security and counterterrorism (and a former executive with QinetiQ PLC, a major intelligence contractor), told an audience at the Brookings Institution that "we have something of a crisis in Afghanistan" partly because of the "largely unregulated private sector security companies performing important roles" there.

The Pentagon's Central Command had nearly 225,000 contractors working in Iraq and Afghanistan and other areas at last count, doing tasks ranging from providing security to base support. Intelligence agencies such as the CIA and the National Security Agency field thousands more under classified contracts that are not publicly disclosed, but extend into every U.S. military command around the world. (According to reports in The Nation and elsewhere, Blackwater, which is now known as Xe, has contracted to send personnel into Pakistan to fight with the Joint Special Operations Command, although a command spokesman said the reports were "totally wrong.")

In response to a question from The Daily Beast, Neville-Jones said that American and British forces must work out "the operational rules and roles that they have when they are in the frontline." Unless that happens, "We are in danger of getting up against Geneva Convention problems and failure to observe fundamental rules of war."

A spokesman for SOCOM would not say exactly how many people work on its contracts, but did say that between 2001 and 2009, SOCOM's budget has grown from about $3 billion to about $10 billion. Neither SOCOM nor Special Operations forces outsource combat operations, the spokesman said. "About the only contractors Special Operations forces might have with them on operations are interpreters," he said.

However, private contractors are now fulfilling vital functions previously done by the military itself.

Blackbird is a case in point. Based in Herndon, Virginia, a stone's throw from the CIA, Blackbird deploys dozens of former CIA operatives and provides "technology solutions" to military and intelligence agencies. Much of the company's revenue—including a $450 million contract awarded last year by the Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command—comes from the deployment of special teams and equipment into enemy territory to rescue American soldiers who have been captured by Taliban or al Qaeda units or have stranded after losing their helicopters in battle.

Until recently, the task of rescuing American soldiers was largely carried out by the military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency. But Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has recommended that the agency's parent command in Virginia be closed. If the recovery agency is shut down, Blackbird would likely pick up the rescue business as it is outsourced. In that case, recovery of captured or stranded American soldiers "won't be a military command anymore; it will be a business," said the former Special Operations command aide (an agency spokesman said, "It's too early to say what will happen.")

Blackbird is run by CEO Peggy Styer, an investor once labeled a "serial defense entrepreneur" by CNN. Last year, she hired Cofer Black, the former head of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, to a senior position. (Black hired and managed some of the first private operatives to enter Afghanistan after the 9/11 attacks, and later joined Blackwater.) Perhaps anticipating a pickup in future business, a venture-capital fund launched by Styer and two other Blackbird founders recently raised $21 million on Wall Street. Blackbird did not return phone calls or emails.

Glevum Associates, for its part, has won contracts for controversial intelligence-gathering work.

The Boston-based company was founded in 2006 by Andrew Garfield, a former British intelligence officer with counterinsurgency experience in Northern Ireland. Garfield first gained public notice in 2004, when he was a key player in the Lincoln Group, a defense contractor that became notorious for engaging in a covert psychological operation to plant stories in the Iraqi press that put a positive spin on America and the U.S. war effort in Iraq. (Covert psychological operations are known in the trade as psy-ops.)

Garfield won his first contracts for Glevum as an adviser to the U.S. military in Iraq. Drawing on his experience in Northern Ireland, his company began researching the views of Iraqi citizens toward the U.S. military. At the time, "no one was doing systematic target audience research," he told me in an interview.

Glevum's contribution to counterinsurgency efforts is a trademarked program called "Face-to-face Research Analysis" that combines intelligence collection with polls and interviews, primarily for the Army's Human Terrain System—a system that some American social scientists have described as unethical because information gleaned from anthropological researchers ultimately can be used to kill people.

Garfield denies the charge. The U.S. military, he told me, can't "connect opinions to location." Rather, the military uses his information "to focus their operations the right way and to provide solutions that Afghans would choose." Several experts on the program said it's impossible to divorce it from other—bloodier—counterinsurgency efforts. "HTS has been an intelligence-funded program from the beginning," said John Stanton, a Virginia military analyst who has written extensively about the system.

(Glevum's corporate partners include primary contractors BAE Systems and ManTech International. K2, which declined to comment, also wins much of its classified work as a subcontractor for larger companies such as Boeing and CACI.)

Garfield pushes back against the notion that Glevum Associates bears any resemblance to Blackwater, which became synonymous with corruption and incompetence for a series of incidents that included shooting innocent civilians and smuggling illegal weapons. "Whenever people think of contractors now, they think of Blackwater," said Garfield. "Well, if you hire a cheap plumber, don't be surprised when the plumbing breaks."

Tim Shorrock is a Washington-based investigative journalist and the author of Spies for Hire: The Secret World of Intelligence Outsourcing, published in 2008 by Simon & Schuster. His articles have appeared in The Atlantic, Salon, Mother Jones, The Nation and many other publications at home and abroad. He can be reached through his website at timshorrock.com.
 
Re: Blackwater II - ??

If this continues to grow as we know it will, kids will be playing with these in the future. The PMC action figure.

http://www.store-rooms.com/Product.aspx?sku=1491

456_633937498703838025_sku1491.jpg
 
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Win. Also, I like this...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...could deepen the secrecy surrounding the American presence in those regions, making it harder for Congress to provide proper oversight </div></div>

That's the point, for all the liberal "we need more transparency!" morons out there. This way, the jackasses in charge can't screw things up by suddenly deciding that something is unethical, or that they're going to make political capital by talking about a secret operation. This way, their long donkey ears will never hear what is really going one, and can't cause problems by letting their bleeding hearts become concerned about why Muhammad's family doesn't get to visit him in interrogation, and whether his accommodations are comfortable enough.
 
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Obama...mercenaries? Boy, that's gotta piss off the base and where's the outrage?

I remember the uproar back in the Bush days.
 
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The article was on Yahoo News today. The link was about 5 lines long, hence the reason I pasted the content. You should be able to find it on Yahoo.
 
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it is not just in the security world as it is also happening in other areas like intelligence. They have been hiring contractors like crazy to increase the numbers in country and paying big bucks too I might add. I have friends that have been hit up for jobs at the 200k mark. It almost makes me think about it.
 
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Keep the American public in the dark for their own good -they cant be trusted to make sensible decisions obviously and your leaders are best at that .
Make less clarity for accountability -one thinks that maybe someone is starting to live under a dictatorship
 
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ch'e, your America bashing is getting real old
 
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If it bothers you that much, you could always worry about where you live and let us deal with our problems. Your incessant finger pointing at every flaw we have over here makes you a bit c*nty.....fyi.

Take Care, thanks for the thought, but we got this.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it bothers you that much, you could always worry about where you live and let us deal with our problems. Your incessant finger pointing at every flaw we have over here makes you a bit c*nty.....fyi.

Take Care, thanks for the thought, but we got this. </div></div>

It a real strange how "some "of you react to people who point out points of fact that are going on in your country and then try to call those people anti american , communist , incessant finger pointers and what ever other things rather than saying yeah -WTF is that all about and why is that happening .

KBrady with respect dude you got nothing under control as I read the original post you are far from it -it has got nothing to do with disrespecting americans as some complete retarded fools would say -read the above post and tell me that fits with the constitution and the people of the USA .
 
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With all due respect........We have been through this stuff before. It's all a set of peaks and valleys, nothing really new. And yes, we will take control of things just like we always do in tough times.

As for you: I call em like I see em. You have been hacking on everything US related lately, pointing your finger at all the problems here. I gave you good advice in my previous post, worry about where you live, we will worry about where we live. Don't you think we have sit here and thought about what this is about and why this is happening?? We certainly DON'T need you doing it for us.

I am fairly certain I know more about what is going on where I live, since I am caught in the middle of it, than you do. That is why I'm not runnin my c*cksmoker about where you live.

Thanks

Kelly

Edit: Thanks for playing, I'm done with you
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The article was on Yahoo News today. The link was about 5 lines long, hence the reason I pasted the content. You should be able to find it on Yahoo. </div></div>

Thanks
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all due respect........We have been through this stuff before. It's all a set of peaks and valleys, nothing really new. And yes, we will take control of things just like we always do in tough times.

As for you: I call em like I see em. <span style="color: #990000"> You have been hacking on everything US related lately, pointing your finger at all the problems here. I gave you good advice in my previous post, worry about</span> where you live, we will worry about where we live. Don't you think we have sit here and thought about what this is about and why this is happening?? We certainly DON'T need you doing it for us.

I am fairly certain I know more about what is going on where I live, since I am caught in the middle of it, than you do. That is why I'm not runnin my c*cksmoker about where you live.

Thanks

Kelly </div></div>
Maybe KBrady you could ask Lowlight to put a special clause in for people only in the USA to have an opinion on a blog he has opened up to the world to participate in .

I would ask you also to clarify your statement I have been "hacking "into lately ? what do you mean ???

I do enjoy reading whats on this forum and looking around the net about whats happening in the world including the USA AND I SURE HAVE AN OPINION , you dont have to like it and it appears with out being rude to you Sir you think all Americans are cut with the same cloth as you and might not want a forigner taking note of the happenings on their soil -thats petty and crap-

As far as well have it under control the point of the ops post was that you sure dont the Govt is doing shit secretly so as not to be as accountable for stuff -you may be on the bus but you aint even near the drivers seat! no rudeness intended to you personally Kbrady
 
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Wasn't it some of these same American types that kicked Japans ass back to their island from yours area ch'e? BTW I thought the world loved our current president and his policies concerning our constitution.
Rthur
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wasn't it some of these same American types that kicked Japans ass back to their island from yours area ch'e? BTW I thought the world loved our current president and his policies concerning our constitution.
Rthur </div></div>
Americans stayed on our soil in ww11 and fought with NZ in many wars around the world , my own father fought in Korea along side your forces .Obama , he is a Celebrity and people love Celebrity's. He is an American -ooops --problem , well to some .
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">**Refer to edit in my previous post** </div></div>
Usually the case when someone finds theyr'e just shootin blanks
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kbrady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or the case when someone realizes what kind of person they are talking to. </div></div>

This is the thing Kbrady -what kind of person are you talking to ?? You havent bothered to respond to the questions I asked you and appear to just to not want to deal with the post and its obvious intention of secrecy surrounding what the Govt is doing and what they want "you" to know.Hence my original comment about a dictatorship .Maybe I am more of a patriotic American than you and I am not American
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Socalsheepdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this continues to grow as we know it will, kids will be playing with these in the future. The PMC action figure.

http://www.store-rooms.com/Product.aspx?sku=1491

456_633937498703838025_sku1491.jpg
</div></div>

Image.aspx


would you rather have your kids play with this? lol
 
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Do you want a pat on the back because you deduced that governments sometimes do shit they don't want us to know about?? I'm almost sure you aren't the first one to realize that. Good job dude.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and I am not American </div></div>

Let's not forget that.
 
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Image.aspx


would you rather have your kids play with this? lol [/quote]

HAHAHA I will buy one as a momento of what a square looks like It may be an identicle twin molded off a few posting here
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rthur</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wasn't it some of these same American types that kicked Japans ass back to their island from yours area ch'e? BTW I thought the world loved our current president and his policies concerning our constitution.
Rthur </div></div>

Careful, dude. You've got other allies on this board other than the Kiwis and we show up every time you blokes start a blue. There may not be 300 million of us but we punch our weight.

Don't forget we were killing Germans and Japanese and being killed by them, in the last big one, before you guys showed up. We're thankful that you did though.

Shit goes both ways.
 
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Simply put:

Outsourcing / Contracting is political insurance.
By not having US forces actually doing the work, there is plausible deniability.
The only political footprint left behind is a hole where the money use to be...

The other side of that coin is that these tasks can be often be done cheaper and more effectively by a contractor.
This is due to:
- Not having to pay for the majority of training by hiring seasoned operators.
- Being able to Vet candidates without having to keep them in there employ.
- Not having to take care of benefits such as health insurance, retirement, or 401K.

Sad but true...
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The other side of that coin is that these tasks can be often be done cheaper and more effectively by a contractor.
This is due to:
- Not having to pay for the majority of training by hiring seasoned operators.
- Being able to Vet candidates without having to keep them in there employ.
- Not having to take care of benefits such as health insurance, retirement, or 401K....</div></div>
- They are not signatories to the Geneva or Hague conventions
- They aren't required by law to accept female or homosexual (open or otherwise) applicants
- They aren't compelled to waste their operators' time taking EO, sexual harassment or sensitivity training
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- They are not signatories to the Geneva or Hague conventions
<span style="color: #FF0000">But are held to general rule of law that incorporates those same regulations and then some.</span>
- They aren't required by law to accept female or homosexual (open or otherwise) applicants
<span style="color: #FF0000">Yeah, right. Go ahead and conduct discriminatory hiring practices and see what happens.</span>
- They aren't compelled to waste their operators' time taking EO, sexual harassment or sensitivity training
<span style="color: #FF0000">On an annual basis, just like any other company with a legal department.</span></div></div>
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- They are not signatories to the Geneva or Hague conventions
<span style="color: #FF0000">But are held to general rule of law that incorporates those same regulations and then some.</span>
- They aren't required by law to accept female or homosexual (open or otherwise) applicants
<span style="color: #FF0000">Yeah, right. Go ahead and conduct discriminatory hiring practices and see what happens.</span>
- They aren't compelled to waste their operators' time taking EO, sexual harassment or sensitivity training
<span style="color: #FF0000">On an annual basis, just like any other company with a legal department.</span></div></div> </div></div>
SOC/SMG flies in the face of that. They're A US-based corporation that contracts fixed facility security (DFACs, PXs/BXs, etc) and EOD throughout SWA but hires only Bantu-speaking tribesMEN from west Africa.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- They are not signatories to the Geneva or Hague conventions
<span style="color: #FF0000">But are held to general rule of law that incorporates those same regulations and then some.</span>
- They aren't required by law to accept female or homosexual (open or otherwise) applicants
<span style="color: #FF0000">Yeah, right. Go ahead and conduct discriminatory hiring practices and see what happens.</span>
- They aren't compelled to waste their operators' time taking EO, sexual harassment or sensitivity training
<span style="color: #FF0000">On an annual basis, just like any other company with a legal department.</span></div></div> </div></div>
SOC/SMG flies in the face of that. They're A US-based corporation that contracts fixed facility security (DFACs, PXs/BXs, etc) and EOD throughout SWA but hires only Bantu-speaking tribesMEN from west Africa.</div></div>
That's why on their website it says: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SOC is an Equal Opportunity Employer, M/F/D/V</div></div>Flies in the face... OK. Good luck with that. The other companies will be happy to take those contracts while they're mired in legal cases, front page NYT articles, and Congressional Oversight Committee hearings. No sensible business would ever put themselves in that type of situation. That's why I'm not buying it.

For the record, I don't believe for a second that they intentionally discriminate when they hire, scoff and ignore sexual harassment, or have a bunch of lawless "cowboys" working for them who violate US laws and the Law of War. The companies that did are already gone and it's all over for them but the lawsuits and jail time.

Finally, I'd be careful before saying those kinds of things about any company out there. If you're a representative, employee, or subcontractor of that company, then you're an idiot for claiming such crap and I hope they fire you. I know mine would and by God I'd deserve it. If you're not, then quit talking blatantly false trash about another company that you have no connection with and no idea about.

It's "wannabe macho" trash talking bullshit like this that gives contractors a bad name.
 
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Personally I see nothing wrong with using private security companies and outsourcing some U.S military jobs to the said companies. It is obvious that the U.S military can't be and should not be at every trouble stirred region in the world. Perhaps these companies can fill the gap in places like Africa, where these experienced and well trained soldiers could provide security for peace keeping missions, as well as other operations. They are well trained and quite capable of achieving their objectives. I think that with proper oversight and a high degree of professionalism these companies could prove to be very useful for security purposes and intelligence gathering.
 
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<span style="color: #FF6666">
_9H said:
Obama is hiring military contractors at a rate that would make Bush blush.

charges of corruption and killing of civilians—and continuing controversy over military outsourcing in general, private sector armies are as involved as ever.

Without much notice or debate, the Obama administration has greatly expanded the outsourcing of key parts of the U.S.-led counterinsurgency wars in the Middle East and Africa, and as a result, for its secretive air war and special operations missions around the world, the U.S. has become increasingly reliant on a new breed of specialized companies that are virtually unknown to the American public, yet carry out vital U.S. missions abroad.

Companies such as Blackbird Technologies, Glevum Associates, K2 Solutions, and others have won hundreds of millions of dollars worth of military and intelligence contracts i

tasked with missions only companies with specific skills and background in covert and counterinsurgency can accomplish.

deepen the secrecy surrounding the American presence in those regions, making it harder for Congress to provide proper oversight.

Even in Iraq, where the U.S. has ended combat operations, the government is "greatly expanding" Michael Thibault, the co-chairman of the federal Commission on Wartime Contracting, recently warned Congress.

"Everyone knows Petraeus can't execute his strategy without the private sector." The former aide spoke on the condition that he not be identified, saying his career could be jeopardized if he went public.

The use of contractors could become a serious problem if controversies about them are not addressed, a senior British official warned during a recent visit to Washington.

Intelligence agencies such as the CIA and the National Security Agency field thousands more under classified contracts that are not publicly disclosed, but extend into every U.S. military command around the world.



"We are in danger of getting up against Geneva Convention problems and failure to observe fundamental rules of war."


However, private contractors are now fulfilling vital functions previously done by the military itself.

Lincoln Group, a defense contractor that became notorious for engaging in a covert psychological operation to plant stories in the Iraqi press that put a positive spin on America and the U.S. war effort in Iraq. (

Blackwater, which became synonymous with corruption and incompetence for a series of incidents that included shooting innocent civilians and smuggling illegal weapons.</span>


It makes scary reading -edited version -when War comes down to business- Legally Government employed mercenaries.
I can understand it cost's alot to train soldiers but should it ? This money cost is the hard earned US citizens tax dollars and I would imagine as a business proposition it would be better to invest this money in long term military infrastructure to grow these specialist areas.Also I think this post as I have pointed out before alluded to the American public not being informed about these secret armies and the cost personally to the US citizens - just a thought
 
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If the American people are "not informed," its their own fault. I think enough information is out there as evidenced by the existence of this article. Obviously, we don't know minute by minute stuff about contractors, but the fact that we(America) use them should evoke some thought and questions. Enough so, so that we can vote accordingly if we approve or disapprove.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It makes scary reading -edited version -when War comes down to business- Legally Government employed mercenaries. </div></div>

Its nothing new.

how do you think the death rate has been so low? Do you think the PMC's are counted in the death rate of both battle grounds?

This is nothing new. Ever since the draft was pulled PMC's have been used in one way or the other.

From oil companies in Africa and South America in the 70's and 80's to contras in the 80's to Bosnia in the 90's and over 60 country's today.

all funded by your tax dollars.
 
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I like it. Especially as we get so many political crackheads trying to make our military troops into police with the goal of keeping the peace. They're not peacekeepers, they're warmakers. Peace through utter destruction of the enemy is apparently not politically correct.

So if we're gonna regulate our own military into a lower bracket of application (court-martial for punching a captured terrorist?!!), somebody has to be willing to lay out the bodies and generally make a mess.

We've never won a war by playing nice. The meanest, scariest, most deadly army fielded wins. And if that means playing dirty, creating "civilian" casualties...so be it. If we can't find the terrorist because he runs across borders, why not bulldoze the village that feeds and supports him? Why not shoot a few village elders to make a point?

The problem with modern technology is that the combat troops are continually getting second-guessed by bureaucrats who've never been shot at, never fired a gun, never even been in a real fight, and probably never worked a <span style="font-style: italic">real</span> job a day in their life.

Taking the supervision away from the battlefield by adding a layer of "insulation" should work beautifully, as well as adding plausible deniability.
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MKSMN762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've never won a war by playing nice. The meanest, scariest, most deadly army fielded wins. And if that means playing dirty, creating "civilian" casualties...so be it. If we can't find the terrorist because he runs across borders, why not bulldoze the village that feeds and supports him? Why not shoot a few village elders to make a point?</div></div> I'm going to go with...you are not a believer in the COIN strategy.
 
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who's so against contractors anyways?? Im betting theres quite a few on this site. Better your tax dollars go towards PMC's smokin some hadj than those same guys on unemployment.. Either way.. it cost money...
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doorkicker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MKSMN762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've never won a war by playing nice. The meanest, scariest, most deadly army fielded wins. And if that means playing dirty, creating "civilian" casualties...so be it. If we can't find the terrorist because he runs across borders, why not bulldoze the village that feeds and supports him? Why not shoot a few village elders to make a point?</div></div> I'm going to go with...you are not a believer in the COIN strategy. </div></div>

Hey man,

It is because of guys like this and the hippy loving peaceniks on the other end of the spectrum that will guarantee we will have jobs forever!! I just get a laugh now.
 
Re: Blackwater II - ??

Jong , I think doorkicker was suggesting buying the enemy and mksmn762 annihilating them and their allies so they have no safe haven .In saying that Vietnam similar things were done without achieving victory .
I have pondered if wholesale slaughter of said enemy and their kind is not the only true way to win -as horrible as that seems .
 
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Blackwater II? I thought they just split into different sections like Microsoft did. US Training Center for training, Blackwater for private contractors, and Xe for whatever they do. lol
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jong , I think doorkicker was suggesting buying the enemy...</div></div> Pretty sure Jong knows exactly what I mean...we're from the same 'neighborhood', and I would absolutely not suggest "buying the enemy"...everyone knows that your enemy can't be bought, only rented...till the next highest bidder comes along.

It's about winning the hearts and minds and changing attitudes without creating more insurgents on a daily basis. While I do agree with the thought that you could probably make a difference by killing several generations in a specific location at a time...that'll just create jihadis everywhere else, and....that isn't going to make you popular amongst the rest of the world
smirk.gif
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jong , I think doorkicker was suggesting buying the enemy and mksmn762 annihilating them and their allies so they have no safe haven .In saying that Vietnam similar things were done without achieving victory .
I have pondered if wholesale slaughter of said enemy and their kind is not the only true way to win -as horrible as that seems . </div></div> <span style="font-weight: bold"> </span> <span style="color: #660000"> </span>

Have to agree with ch'e on this one
 
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Waaahhhooooo, that means I'll have a cool post military retirement job!
 
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The problem is how do you regulate contractors to an acceptable point?
They will regulate themselves but they will above all else answer to the dollar! Its a business and nothing else, so there is a lot of risk there!
Highest bidder.

Either way. When I was little the idea of being a military contractor type appealed to me.
 
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The age of the blackwater merc' shooting up iraq like its 2003 are over.. Now its all about winning the contracts and keeping a good reputation while doing so. A gun slinging contractor will get shit canned for the slightest infraction these days. There is no room for fuckaround fuckaround... So consequently the calibur or contractor has slowly risen.. And if your at the top of your game, things are VERY NICE!!
 
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MKSMN762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We've never won a war by playing nice. The meanest, scariest, most deadly army fielded wins. And if that means playing dirty, creating "civilian" casualties...so be it. If we can't find the terrorist because he runs across borders, why not bulldoze the village that feeds and supports him? Why not shoot a few village elders to make a point?</div></div>

And for every "one" you do this to, you will breed "three" more. This is a surefire recipe for disaster, and I am personally thankful that you are not in charge of our strategy.

DK knows about what he says, as does Jong (and a bunch of others on this forum)... because those guys look that horse in the mouth on a daily basis. Some of you internet commandos need to stop huffing that canned air duster and recognize real experience when you see it.

I know what he's talking about because i'm on the other side of this equation (gov) and I can tell you without any hesitation that if we didn't have PMC outfits then some work just wouldn't get done. IMHO, that's unacceptable because then the hadjis will bring the fight right back to our doorstep. That makes for unpleasant work for those of us on the domestic side of things.

I prefer to worry about the "what if" than to put on my gloves and go pick up dead bodies. PMCs are just one slice of the "black budget" pie that keeps unsavory folks from getting out of hand. You may not like them, but you'd like the world a lot less without them.
 
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ch'e,

We hear a lot of negativity from folks living in other countries but they seldom comment on conditions at home. The type of world you're talking about will never work in the real life... only in the heads of people like the clown responsible for Wikileaks (however you spell it). They are always interested in whistle blowing on America but I haven't heard a peep about other countries, or their own.

America became what it is because of the spirit that lives here. Sure, we're not perfect here to be sure, but when the shit hits the fan somewhere in the world, who's there to help. When we have a problem here, no one cares. Where is the transparency in you own country?

People who live in a fantacy world where we will all "just get along" are only fooling themselves. That place doesn't exist. As long as there are conflicts over issues such we see today, there will never be a peaceful world. Therefore, not broadcasting to the world our diplomatic and military plans for all to either agree with or not will never work. Our enemies think that the kind of transparency you're talking about is just dandy. You tell them that you'll be out of an area of operation on a certain date, they'll just lay back and wait. Come join us in the real world sir. Take care of your own country before you try to tell us how it's done.

Indiansinger