Advanced Marksmanship Blinking

[Outerspace]

I am in the lower half of shooters here in terms of accomplishment, have been shooting LR for about a year, 30-06 modified Savage, saving up for the tactical rig.

I have been to training, so was able to short circuit some "learn the hard way stuff", but discovered something a couple of months back. My brother went with me to the range one day (not a shooter), and in taking pictures noticed that his eyes were clamped shut on every shot. At the time we laughed at him, seemed like an obvious no-no. A month or so later some pictures showed I was blinking before the shot also, which shocked me. I came up with a little drill to keep my eye open, and it virtually eliminated my "fliers" and I've never shot better.

I started noticing on shooting and hunting shows that all kinds of people close their eyes before the shot. I came up with a rule, "You will always shoot worse with your eyes closed; you will always shoot better with your eyes open".

So this is basic of course but last night on the sniper program one of the kids that got cut from the school shut his eye before the shot on his last shot, cutting him from the program.

Now, how does someone make it to the Marine scout sniper school and still blink?

If it can happen to them it can happen to anybody. It happened to me, for sure.

Just a friendly suggestion, if you have too many fliers maybe you're blinking. From what I can tell the only way you can tell if you're doing it is with videotape. This experience led me to believe videotaping yourself may be as important in shooting as it is in golf.

FWIW.

 

[cooper623]

Re: Blinking

well i see what your saying however, blinking is not inherently bad. If you just blink as a reaction to the recoil and noise of the gun but keep everything else motionless, then its not horrible. However, your theory may be correct in that it may be hinting at the fact that you are anticipating the recoil and therefore cringing and tightening up in which case that would be a huge issue

 

[Outerspace]

Re: Blinking

I'm talking about having the eye shut before the shot, in anticipation. At any kind of distance it seems really detrimental.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Blinking

Work on dry firing. When you dry fire, keep your eyes open and don't blink at all. This will help cure it. And some 22LR shooting with glasses on and not blinking. Dry firing and a 22LR rifle (shot correctly) will help cure almost any bad habbit. If you shoot enough, you will go through a period of blinks and/or flinching. Cure it with dry fire and a 22LR.

 

[Hunt]

Re: Blinking

Try to look through the shot and watch the muzzle blast. If I see gas/smoke exit my barrel, I'm fairly sure that the bullet has exited the muzzle by then.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: Blinking

The technique that I use is to imagine your sight picture in the scope as a TV screen, ie you aren't actually there firing the gun, you're watching it on TV. You never blink/flinch watching a gun shot on TV, so just pretend you're doing that.

If you start watching for it on TV you'll see people do it all the time. That would lead me to believe many shooters struggle with it unknowingly.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

Good advice. Whenever I'm coaching a problem shooter, the two main areas I watch while they're firing a shot is their trigger finger and their eyes. The blink will always indicate a shot anticipation and flinch. The hard part is getting them to stop it. Getting them to concentrate more on their sight alignment/picture and less on the trigger position usually does the trick along with a lot of dry fire practice. I keep telling them "Just like dry fire... Just like dry fire..." over and over to really make it stick in their head.

Also a good idea on the videotaping and is something I've done for years. We are our own biggest critic, and many shooters who are flinching/blinking don't even know they're doing it until they see it with their own two eyes. Dummy rounds included in with live rounds during firing also shows shooters when they're flinching.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: Blinking

Chad mentioned shooting 22, which is fine, and I think a lot of things can be solved by shooting really light but you do eventually have to translate over to 30 cal at some point so you have to deal with it all over again.

 

[breezernate]

Re: Blinking

I have been dry firing my .308 for about a month in my basement prone. I only do about 10 shots per session, realistically.

Yesterday while firing live I forgot to place a round in the chamber (I know, amateur) and the firing pin snapped forward on an empty chamber. I didn't even flinch.

Dry firing helps me and I am going to make a habit of it.

BN

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Blinking

i think after enough rounds down range anyone will start to flinch

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chad mentioned shooting 22, which is fine, and I think a lot of things can be solved by shooting really light but you do eventually have to translate over to 30 cal at some point so you have to deal with it all over again.</div></div> The point of training light or dry is to instill into yourself the proper techniques so you are applying them regardless of caliber. Building the mental portion of shooting is what's important here so you don't have to deal with it ever again.

If a shooter is able to properly apply the fundamentals with a .22 or in dry fire, but not when behind live centerfire, then they have yet to master the mental portion of marksmanship. Flinching is completely indicative of shot and recoil anticipation. Get that out of the head and focus on the shot being made properly, not what happens afterwards.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think after enough rounds down range anyone will start to flinch</div></div> I think I know what you're saying here, but I don't agree. If you're speaking of a sore shoulder causing a flinch from pain, then you're not shooting enough or you need to apply some recoil management into your weapon or position. The body will get used to the shooting and the recoil absorption, and will harden the shoulder over time just like body hardening exercises in martial arts. It just takes time and repetition.

 

[breezernate]

Re: Blinking

In my limited experience, to deal with flinching I:

Shoot a heavier rifle.
Shoot a rifle with an adjustable stock for better fit.
Shoot a .308, not a super ultra mega magnum.
Dry fire.
Hold weapon tightly into shoulder.
Shoot .22 a lot.

BN

 

[breezernate]

Re: Blinking

Oh yeah, brake.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: Blinking

Well flinching and blinking are two different things, although you can blink when you flinch of course.

I have pretty much no flinch but was still blinking on occasion, and so needed to work on that.

 

[Trapshooter12]

Re: Blinking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think after enough rounds down range anyone will start to flinch</div></div> I think I know what you're saying here, but I don't agree. If you're speaking of a sore shoulder causing a flinch from pain, then you're not shooting enough or you need to apply some recoil management into your weapon or position. The body will get used to the shooting and the recoil absorption, and will harden the shoulder over time just like body hardening exercises in martial arts. It just takes time and repetition. </div></div>

Your body will natrually try to compensate for the pounding it is taking from the recoil. This is not a flinch but it will cause you to miss big.

When I decided to get back into shooting a Rifle after not touching one for 5 years. ( I was concentrating on Trap shooting) I took my Air rifle out to start getting back into the Rifle mode. The first shot I jerked so bad anticipating the recoil I almost dropped my Air rifle. I have seen people that have this type of flinch almost fall on their face when they have a failure to fire. It is comical to see but it is a serious issue for the shooter. Many of them go to a release trigger to stop this.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Well flinching and blinking are two different things</span>, although you can blink when you flinch of course.

I have pretty much no flinch but was still blinking on occasion, and so needed to work on that.</div></div> Maybe in your marksmanship manual they are, but not in the USMC's or any other one I've seen. This is getting away from the solution and is more a debate on terminology, but I still feel that the terms should be kept proper.

It's anticipation of the shot and is improper trigger control. There are three types of improper trigger control; bucking, flinching, and jerking. Blinking at/prior to the shot being fired is most definitely shot anticipation, and since it isn't shouldering into the stock (bucking), and isn't applying pressure to the trigger in an improper manner (jerking), it is a flinch. It's a mental error, and can be easily overcome with training and focus.

I've seen all kinds of shooters flinch. I used to have to deal with it on the ranges at Parris Island all the time, and I'd say it was the #1 shooting error we encountered there. The key is to get the trigger out of the front of the mind and replace it with thinking about the relationship of the sights on the target. It doesn't matter when the trigger breaks because you shouldn't be applying pressure to the trigger without having proper sight picture anyhow.

 

[Outerspace]

Re: Blinking

Thanks for the clarification.

Since I was blinking (occasionally) and not doing anything else it made me separate it out.

 

[Trapshooter12]

Re: Blinking

[/quote]
It's anticipation of the shot and is improper trigger control. There are three types of improper trigger control; bucking, flinching, and jerking. Blinking at/prior to the shot being fired is most definitely shot anticipation, and since it isn't shouldering into the stock (bucking), and isn't applying pressure to the trigger in an improper manner (jerking), it is a flinch. It's a mental error, and can be easily overcome with training and focus.
[/quote]

I have the jerking at the trigger pull right now. I know it is from anticipation of the recoil. I don't have it when I practice with my 22 or while dry firing.
What type of training do you recommend?
I can see it happen, but I haven't figured out how to fix it yet.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

This is something I've found common amongst shotgunners in the past, and a habit I started picking up when I was spending every weekend on the skeet range. Trigger control shooting trap and skeet is too rapid in comparison to shooting precision rifle.

Slow down on the trigger and exaggerate your follow through. Continue to squeeze the trigger, hold the breath and hold the sights on the target for at least a few seconds after the shot is fired. Also, the application of pressure on the trigger should take 3-5 seconds at least from start to break. You can exaggerate this too, but not so long that it effects your breath hold to the point you develop the shakes or feel rushed to finish.

You might also be not only jerking, but also bucking and/or flinching. Like is said above, video helps for after analysis, along with cycling in dummy rounds during your firing to help detect what you're doing wrong.

Keep up on the dry fire and small bore practice. It takes time but is well worth it.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Blinking

Shoot with someone who know's what to look for if you can't identify your errors on your own. Have them randomly load your rifle with a dummy in there somewhere and have them not only watch you but if you can have them video tape you so if you disagree with them on the topic of what you're doing wrong then they can provide proof and hopefully you can correct your mistakes. I always shoot with a partner watching my form and what i'm doing the whole time. Not knowing what's going to happen and being totally fine when nothing happens when your expecting something to occur is what truly teaches you if you're doing something wrong or not. Now the key is always being prepared for anything even when nobody is there to watch you. Meaning you shouldn't be slacking any more out in the middle of nowhere just because nobody is watching you, you should always make every shot the best shot you can muster.

Hope this helps,
-Dylan

 

[kentactic]

Re: Blinking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i think after enough rounds down range anyone will start to flinch</div></div> I think I know what you're saying here, but I don't agree. If you're speaking of a sore shoulder causing a flinch from pain, then you're not shooting enough or you need to apply some recoil management into your weapon or position. The body will get used to the shooting and the recoil absorption, and will harden the shoulder over time just like body hardening exercises in martial arts. It just takes time and repetition. </div></div>

i understand what your saying with the physical aspect of toughening up your shoulder but at the same time anyone shooting alot of rounds in a session will start to anticipate the recoil as a natural development of that session. kinda like dry firing in reverse.

ive seen guys torture test pistols and shoot 500 rounds as fast as they can load the magazines and no matter how skilled the shooter you develop anticipation eventually. perhaps it goes away after you go home and go to bed but never the less it develops as a natural defense to constant beatings on your body.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

Pistols and rifles is apples and oranges in terms of recoil absorption. A pistol always requires the shooter utilize muscles to recover from the recoil whereas a rifle (within reason on amount of recoil) in a proper position requires nothing.

Also, relating it to a torture test scenario is similar to having someone hold your arms to your side and you try to lift them. After they release your arms after a minute or so, the arms will rise on their own. Do something that repetitive and the muscles will of course start a natural reaction to that movement.

I shot a three week course where my shoulder took a pounding from 200+ rounds a day on the M40A1 and an additional 100+ daily from the Barrett in the third week. The first week was brutal on my shoulder for the first couple shots of the day. The second week was much easier and the third week was nothing after it became accustomed to the recoil impact. Additionally due to a bad lot of ammo we had, I would have a dud every 15 shots or so, so I know for a fact I never developed any type of buck or flinch.

It can be done right, and in my experience if you're retrograding in your trigger control abilities, you're either shooting too fast or thinking about the shot's effects too much.

 

[REELDOC]

Re: Blinking

I admit that I have the blinking problem and have not been able to cure it since I was a really little feller. I am also ball shy and never could play baseball again after getting hit in the noggin a couple times at an early age. My blinking is worse with pistol than rifle mainly I assume because the muzzle blast is more apparent. I don't necessarily anticipate the recoil since recoil has never bothered me even shooting 300mags to excess. I think it is a subconscious method of trying to keep something from hitting me in the eye. It is also strange that in my years of martial arts I never blinked at a punch or kick coming.

I can consciously attempt to control the blinking but it normally makes it worse. I've gotten so used to getting a good sight picture first and just working through it the best I can. It's dang near like shooting blind for a split second.

I can sympathize with everyone who has the problem.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Blinking

and................remember to breathe

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Blinking

Some random thought, FWIW.....

The bullet goes where the crosshairs are looking when the bullet exits the muzzle...

Concentration on target while engaging fire control keeps the eyes open; aim small, miss small.

Do it with a precisely defined and totally undistracted sense purpose....

You made the commitment to shoot long before the round fires, sending a shot should always surprise you at the instant it goes.

Train your breathing/fire control to give you enough of a window to shoot, shots can be hurried/blown by holding your breath too long...a mental mistake, and where a lot of trigger jerk comes from.

Using the tip of the trigger finger goes a long way towards negating shot anticipation.....

Spotting your own shots keeps eyes open under recoil...purposely LOOK for vapor trail, bullet splashes, holes form in the paper, hair/goo flinging, etc.

Adequate hearing protection will stop a LOT of flinch/buck....

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Blinking

All very good points indeed.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Blinking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am in the lower half of shooters here in terms of accomplishment, have been shooting LR for about a year, 30-06 modified Savage, saving up for the tactical rig.

I have been to training, so was able to short circuit some "learn the hard way stuff", but discovered something a couple of months back. My brother went with me to the range one day (not a shooter), and in taking pictures noticed that his eyes were clamped shut on every shot. At the time we laughed at him, seemed like an obvious no-no. A month or so later some pictures showed I was blinking before the shot also, which shocked me. I came up with a little drill to keep my eye open, and it virtually eliminated my "fliers" and I've never shot better.

I started noticing on shooting and hunting shows that all kinds of people close their eyes before the shot. I came up with a rule, "You will always shoot worse with your eyes closed; you will always shoot better with your eyes open".

So this is basic of course but last night on the sniper program one of the kids that got cut from the school shut his eye before the shot on his last shot, cutting him from the program.

Now, how does someone make it to the Marine scout sniper school and still blink?

If it can happen to them it can happen to anybody. It happened to me, for sure.

Just a friendly suggestion, if you have too many fliers maybe you're blinking. From what I can tell the only way you can tell if you're doing it is with videotape. This experience led me to believe videotaping yourself may be as important in shooting as it is in golf.

FWIW.</div></div>

Concentration on follow-through, continuing to aim until recoil has subsided, will prevent the manifestation of any involuntary action from disturbing aim, since follow-through itself demands conscious attention. And, since follow-through emphasizes focus on the sight, being able to call the shot is evidence of properly following-through.