Advanced Marksmanship Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

[vinconco]

Bolt-Guns Beat Semi-Autos in Norwegian Rapid-Fire Match
In Norway, the annual Landsskytterstevnet (Rifle Country Fair) is Norway’s largest shooting tournament. One of the most popular Landsskytterstevnet events is a rapid-fire competition. The objective is to achieve the most hits on multiple targets in the alloted time period (typically 25 seconds or less). In some stages, all targets are at the same distance, while in other stages the shooters engage targets at 3 or 4 different distances.
You would think that a semi-automatic rifle would dominate the rapid-fire matches, but that isn’t the case. In the video linked below, civilian shooters with mag-fed Sauer 200 TR bolt-action target rifles outpace Norwegian army personnel using HK semi-autos. You’ll be amazed to see how fast the civilians can shoot their target rifles. It’s a great video… be patient and let it load from the Norwegian server.

Watch the video click here

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

those dudes can rack a bolt...

 

[acttacus]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

These guys are gooood!! Fun comp. thou, wish we can have something similar here to try out.

 

[gixxerpilot750]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

If you happen to watch Wednesday's episode of modern sniper on the military channel you'll see the same technique being used.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1407222&page=1

 

[elkkid3]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gixxerpilot750</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you happen to watch Wednesday's episode of modern sniper on the military channel you'll see the same technique being used.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1407222&page=1 </div></div>

That was the first time I saw that technique, I was watching it with my dad. We both looked at each other like what.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

You guys aren't comparing apples to apples here, first off, it's a technique and the soldiers clearly are shooting stock battle rifles as compared to race guns made for the sport.

Next the guys are shooting with their middle fingers, as opposed to their trigger finger because their index finger is still on the bolt. You have full blown competitors versus soldiers, which you are all assuming know how to drive a gas gun... put a competitor in there with a real competitive gas gun and I guarantee, driven correctly he smokes them... that is not the sport here.

Plus you are not watching "Shots" you are watching "Hits" there is a difference.

from what I saw, they didn't show the soldiers shooting they only showed the race gun guys, which you are probably talking a .5 MOA rifle versus a 2 MOA rifle if they are that...

If I was at Rifles Only now I would put this argument to bed toot sweet...

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

why do you have to ruin his thread?

 

[Graham]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was at Rifles Only now I would put this argument to bed toot sweet...</div></div>Or, as a culture more experienced than ours at going to bed would say: '...toute suite'. Sorry. Couldn't resist.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

If i was being cultured I would have said,

"Tout de suite"

But then again, I do live in a trailer down there.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I thought @ Rifles Only it was RIGHT THE FUCKING NOW!!!!
But , tout de suite, ca fonctionne aussi

 

[vinconco]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Still, those bolt guns worked SWEEEET.

No doubt that a tricked out gasser with a gamey competitor behind the trigger would rule but not by much if the gas guns were limited to 5 rounds in the mag.

 

[TorF]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

from what I saw, they didn't show the soldiers shooting they only showed the race gun guys, which you are probably talking a .5 MOA rifle versus a 2 MOA rifle if they are that... </div></div>

These gas gunners shoot selected AG3, a Norwegian manufactured G3, that is a true 1 moa rifle in stock config. The barrels on these rifles are made on the same type of hammerforging machines that are used in Steyr rifles, not HK. The German army also received 100000 Norwegian rifles.

Most of the soldiers are hardened competition shooters. Usually they are shooting Sauer boltactions but shoot G3's for fun in Stangshooting. If you shoot G3 you have to wear a military uniform.

PS: The targets are in the mail

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I watched more of the video, where they show the gas gun guys shooting, either the trigger is really, really bad on that, (Being stock I doubt its very good) or the guys have a serious crush and jerk to their shots. In some of it, you can clearly see them shooting more, but hitting less, and the view from the trigger side show why more than likely.

They are snapping and crushing in some cases taking their finger off the trigger and resetting it -- not always in the same position. It could be case of going from a light competition rifle to something like the G3. As far as being 1 MOA... well I can't say because I haven't shot one, but suffice to say, a lot of these systems claim to be 1 MOA, but are clearly not... to me it just seems the competition rifles hit "more" and not hit faster.

Thanks for mailing those out, I will video a series of shots with me doing what I see, only different.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

As a PS, finishing watching it, part of the gas gun issue is the mag change, with the larger magazine the guy who shot 16 with the gas gun, was coming much further off the rifle to reload, were the race gun guys had a much better economy of motion with their reloads... again, the technique more so than anything else, at least that is what I think.

I think a 5 round short magazine would help the G3 in the reload department so they didn't have to roll as far over. Being able to keep the rifle square made a time difference.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

A G3 in any form is hard to shoot fast accurately. I don't care how inherently accurate the gun is. They are hard to drive if you are under a time presure.

On top of that, a really, really, really good, worked over G3 trigger is about 4 lbs. has bad overtravel and a long reset.

It really is not fair either. Soldiers rarely are competitors and competiters are not often soldiers. Not that all soldiers are bad shots, it is just different.

I am a big fan of the G3 platform, but it is not a presicion rifle. I would very much like to see the same comparison with AR's (which I am not really a fan of).

I will say that those guys can run a bolt though.

 

[Sig685]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I watched about half of the video and I have the following observations;

The most used word in Norwegian is "heh," usually stretched to "heeeeeeeeeeh".

The military shooters were a total joke except for one guy. They handle their rifle even worse that I handle a broom.

That shooting discipline looks like a lot of fun and requires an elevated degree of coordination. The civilians definitely had rifles honed for this discipline; the military shooters should have not showed up with their issue rifles.

It seems the military guys had to switch magazines (big-ass magazines) after 5 rounds. Some of them looked like they never swapped magazines on the line.

It's a great shooting discipline and I loved the spectators' reactions and enthusiasm. I'm just thankful we do not have those spectators when I compete.

 

[shootist2004]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

when I get to the web page nothing happens........

 

[6mmFan]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

hey Shootist,

I am using Firefox and it kinda loads halfazz. Stellar performance from those boltgunners I must say. What are those? Anshutz rifles?

 

[6mmFan]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

ooops-

I guess he said they are Sauer 200 rifles

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Well.... I can't rest my case, because these bolt guns only raced against one version of a gas gun...and the gas guns in question were not using bipods. However, I still remain firm that a good bolt gunner with a sling can outshoot (speed AND accuracy) a gas gunner with a bipod.

Of course, one more thing. The bolt gunner has got to get rid of the cast iron britches and the straight jacket... Gotta make it fair afterall!

Anybody want to play? I'll have my short action up and running by the fall. Let's throw down the gauntlett. Maybe we do it at Benning on their electronic targets, 300 meters. We could get AMU, Sniper School, and a couple of old has-beens involved.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well.... I can't rest my case, because these bolt guns only raced against one version of a gas gun...and the gas guns in question were not using bipods. However, I still remain firm that a good bolt gunner with a sling can outshoot (speed AND accuracy) a gas gunner with a bipod.

Of course, one more thing. The bolt gunner has got to get rid of the cast iron britches and the straight jacket... Gotta make it fair afterall!

Anybody want to play? I'll have my short action up and running by the fall. Let's throw down the gauntlett. Maybe we do it at Benning on their electronic targets, 300 meters. We could get AMU, Sniper School, and a couple of old has-beens involved. </div></div>

Too bad I live too far from your location, I would of loved to take you up on your offer with my AR10....

 

[Lindy]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Watching them shoot left me with the impression that the rate of fire from the bolt guns was similar to the rate of fire from the semi-autos.

I think the domination of the competition of the bolt gunners was the result of the fact that the bolt gunners were getting a higher percentage of hits. If you watch a given shooter fire while watching the score board for his score, that gets to be pretty obvious.

That's precisely the result I'd expect from pitting civilian shooters with a passion for the sport up against military shooters.

I believe that the competition would be completely dominated by a shooter who spent as much time learning to correctly shoot a <span style="font-style: italic">good</span> semi-auto as those bolt gunners did practicing to run the bolt.

You can't miss fast enough to win.

 

[vinconco]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I believe that the competition would be completely dominated by a shooter who spent as much time learning to correctly shoot a <span style="font-style: italic">good</span> semi-auto as those bolt gunners did practicing to run the bolt.
</div></div>

Without a doubt. But if the autos were held to 5 rounds it would be close.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

With an AR and smaller than 20rnds mags, the shooter would not have to change position for reloads.

 

[TorF]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

There is another way to compare gas guns vs bolt action rifles shooting off hand. Long locktime/hammerfall is the achilles heel on the gas gun. NRA 500m high power silhouette is a good example. A regular 5 shot series has a 2.5 min timelimit. If the time limit is reduced to 15sec a slick boltaction has an even greater advantage. A great comparison between gasgun and bolt would be to shoot 5 chickens, 5 boars, 5 turkies and 5 rams in 60 seconds. Even if the gasgun use a 20 round mag the bolt would still win. A Steyr SSG would be a good rifle in this shootout. It complies with the NRA rules and has a fast mag change, short boltthrow, good trigger and very short locktime.

The same comparison can be done on a rimfire range with a tricked out Ruger 10/22 vs Anschutz 54MS rep.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

And working the bolt is the Achilles heel of the bolt gun!!!?????

Can`t beleive I`m reading this.....

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I have never tried this in 308 (...though I'm sure a high quality semi auto will win), but with a 223 gas gun (precision AR type) vs bolt action there is no competition... auto WAY faster.

 

[Sig685]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is another way to compare gas guns vs bolt action rifles shooting off hand. Long locktime/hammerfall is the achilles heel on the gas gun. NRA 500m high power silhouette is a good example. A regular 5 shot series has a 2.5 min timelimit. If the time limit is reduced to 15sec a slick boltaction has an even greater advantage. A great comparison between gasgun and bolt would be to shoot 5 chickens, 5 boars, 5 turkies and 5 rams in 60 seconds. Even if the gasgun use a 20 round mag the bolt would still win. A Steyr SSG would be a good rifle in this shootout. It complies with the NRA rules and has a fast mag change, short boltthrow, good trigger and very short locktime.

The same comparison can be done on a rimfire range with a tricked out Ruger 10/22 vs Anschutz 54MS rep. </div></div>

Right, I see what you mean; the lock time of a good bolt action is about 3-4 milliseconds, and the lock time for an AR with a good trigger (Geissele) is about 8 milliseconds. So firing 5 shots will take the 20 milliseconds longer for an AR than it will for a bolt action. It's a good thing that working the bolt is instantaneous and in many cases can even be done while the trigger is being pulled; this is called anticipatory reloading.

 

[TorF]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sig685</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TorF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is another way to compare gas guns vs bolt action rifles shooting off hand. Long locktime/hammerfall is the achilles heel on the gas gun. NRA 500m high power silhouette is a good example. A regular 5 shot series has a 2.5 min timelimit. If the time limit is reduced to 15sec a slick boltaction has an even greater advantage. A great comparison between gasgun and bolt would be to shoot 5 chickens, 5 boars, 5 turkies and 5 rams in 60 seconds. Even if the gasgun use a 20 round mag the bolt would still win. A Steyr SSG would be a good rifle in this shootout. It complies with the NRA rules and has a fast mag change, short boltthrow, good trigger and very short locktime.

The same comparison can be done on a rimfire range with a tricked out Ruger 10/22 vs Anschutz 54MS rep. </div></div>

Right, I see what you mean; the lock time of a good bolt action is about 3-4 milliseconds, and the lock time for an AR with a good trigger (Geissele) is about 8 milliseconds. So firing 5 shots will take the 20 milliseconds longer for an AR than it will for a bolt action. It's a good thing that working the bolt is instantaneous and in many cases can even be done while the trigger is being pulled; this is called anticipatory reloading. </div></div>

Locktime in this context has to do with the ability to to hit the target. NRA 500m silhouette is a difficult game and locktime is one of the most important factors of being able to hit the target when you are standing there and see steel dancing in your scope. My point is that rifles with hammers are uncompetitive with a 2.5min timelimit. If you reduce the timelimit to 15 sec you have to take "higher risk" shots at each target you are peanalized even more with a gasgun due to the long locktime. It is as easy as to try it out. 3 sec pr shot in a 5 shot string with the right boltgun is no problem if you have trained at it.

 

[TorF]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TiroFijo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never tried this in 308 (...though I'm sure a high quality semi auto will win), but with a 223 gas gun (precision AR type) vs bolt action there is no competition... auto WAY faster. </div></div> I'll stick my neck out and say that if you try it on NRA silhouette you score better with a boltgun compared with a gasgun if you usually score 25+ on silhouette and have practiced rapidfire with boltguns.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

TorF, my experience with bolt vs gas in 223 is more informal shooting at small metal plates (4" to 6") at 200 and 300 m, prone, with bipod or sling.

Granted, the bolt guns I used were not Sauers, had two lugs bolts (90º turn), and non detachable mags, but were pretty good rifles. The time difference in favor of the gas guns was very large, so I don't think more training + better bolt rifle would compensate that.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I'm down with ya TorF, most here miss the sillywet angle as THE test of accuracy and skill, but hey the targets are about 12sq moa, it can't be a hard game.....

I've tried the middle finger method and with practice it could be very handy in rapid stages at comps, and I was surprised to see USMC boys doing it.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

In almost all instances with a bolt gun, (in order to shoot quickly) you reload during the recoil action. Can't do anything during the recoil portion with a gas gun but wait. Now, with a sling, the forward elbow is anchored, and the sling steers the rifle back to target.

With a bipod, the darn thing jumps around and is not anchored. Thus, you're moving your NPA to get back on target.

If a bolt gun is set up right, and the shooter well trained, there should be no relative delay (given same recoil) compared to the auto.

Remember folks, we're not talking about just rounds down range, but ACCURATE rounds down range.

I'll grant you, the bolt gun must be set up right, but I'll slap leather that training and a good bolt set up will outshoot a conscript with a gas gun any day.

 

[okiefired]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In almost all instances with a bolt gun, (in order to shoot quickly) you reload during the recoil action. Can't do anything during the recoil portion with a gas gun but wait. </div></div>

Come ooooonnnn 1SJ. You're saying you can completely cycle a bolt faster than an auto loader's carrier group can cycle? You cant do anything while a gas gun is cycling because there is barely time to blink. You may be way more experienced than me and way more knowledgable than me but I'm gonna have to wave the BS flag on that one. I've been shooting 40 yrs and seen a few very good bolt gunners (of which I am not) and I aint never seen one anywhere near that fast. Maybe I'm just hangin with the wrong pople

.

okie

 

[Lindy]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll grant you, the bolt gun must be set up right, but I'll slap leather that training and a good bolt set up will outshoot a conscript with a gas gun any day.</div></div>

That's not an equal comparison. The comparison should be between two shooters with about the same level of training and experience.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

2 rifle in a vise, holding a bolt and a semi.
shoot as fast you can, the semi wins period.

I will grant you that a bolt is easier than a semi to shoot accuratly, but that is technic and practice, just ask Mr Tubb.

My problem with this video and comment that followed was addressed earlier in the fact that;

1- Comparing a target bolt rifle with a basic G3 makes no sense
Try it with a tuned AR10...

2- The competence and experience of the shooters are not the
same, as Lindy pointed out.

Defining accuracy would be needed.
Are we talking 1/4,1/2 or MOA.

1 MOA @ 300yds rapid fire, Ill take my AR10

How about this, taking advantage of the holidays, we make our own videos with the prefered plateform(bolt/semi) using bipod or bags.

5 rnds minimum @ 200yds.

A picture of the target must be included

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

OK, OK. I'm not saying that the cycling of a bolt gun is as fast as a gas gun. What I am saying is that you can manipulate a bolt gun during the recoil phase. That recoil phase is the only time delay that really counts with both systems, as it's virtually the same.

Herein lies the basic question to the bipod shooters. Answer truthfully, and you get a lollipop. As the gas gun, on a bipod, is finished recoiling, does it drop back to the exact same point (within ~ 2 MOA)? I can tell you for certain that a slung bolt gun with a proficiently trained shooter, WILL do that. If the gas gun does not do that, you waste time re-aiming, while the guy with a sling is already taking up the first stage.

Tactical employment: I'm not saying that a slung bolt gun is better than a semi with a bipod. In battle, you're looking for minute of hadji, not MOA, unless past 800 yards for a head shot or 1200 yards for the boiler room. And if engauging at those distances, follow up shots are probably equally difficult. That being said, when you are looking for accuracy at those distances, most shooters are looking for a bolt gun anyway, because they want to hedge their bets towards better accuracy. Right or wrong, there's a perception that a bolt gun is inherently more accurate AND reliable. Thus, the bolt gun generally wins the long, long range accuracy arguement.

The bet I'm taking is that a slung bolt gun can outshoot (combined accuracy and speed) a gas gun on a bipod. However, given limited training of our troops, it's easier to employ someone with "conscript level" training with a gas gun and bipod. But, that's NOT what I'm arguing.

The end game of my argument: The military leaders have rested on their laurels, and have for the better part of the last 100 years. Whenever a problem arises with employment of accurate shooters, they always turn to purchasing new equipment. They hardly ever look at better training. It always turns to the elusive hunt for the new widget. If we continue said path, we'll find our troops ladened with every damn bell and whistle you can hang off a gun, but without really good trainers, and really good training, we'll have accomplished virtually nothing.

If you doubters want to play, I'm in. I don't currently own the required bolt gun to do the job right. However, I used to steer one in another life. I'll build one up, and once done, we'll play.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

1smalljhonson, at least with the heavy barrel/accurized/scoped AR rifles in 223 that I mentioned, the guns jump very little off a bipod (it is heavy for the caliber, cushioned recoil, and balances up front), and there a few tricks to make them jump even less (dig the feet a little on the ground, hold the handguard, or pull a sling). Since a 4" target at 200 yds is about 2.0 MOA, relatively large and not requiring extreme precision, you can shoot WAY faster than a bolt gunner. That I have tried myself and witness with friends many times. As I said, I'm not a super fast bolt gunner, nor we had ultra slick bolt rifles, or restricted to iron/aperture sights, but in this context the advantage goes to the AR easily.

Plus (in case you want to see how many rounds in target in one minute) the AR has a 30 round magazine...

I have not tried this comparison in 308 (M1A or AR10 vs bolt actions) where the recoil is more significant, rifle jumps more, and may give more time to operate the bolt action, but based on my experience with all these guns I find it very hard to believe that a tuned gas action with an equally skilled shooter will be any slower than a bolt action. Again, this in the context of the 2.0+ MOA targets we are discussing.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

At a competition last year, I could see my rounds impact at 500yds.
5 rounds in about 9 seconds, shooting prone with bipod and monopod.

The 2 first round I waited to see the impact on target, the last 3 where shot when the reticle got back on target.

AR 10 in 260 Rem, Gap upper, Geissele trigger(first stage 2#/ second stage 10 ounces), USO SN3, 3.8x22x44, H39 reticle.
139grs at 2600fps

It was the first time I had the opportunity to shoot in this situation and would of loved to spend the day practicing that drill.

I had an AR15, CLE 24" kreiger, this thing did no moved at all from the target and I won't compare a 223 to a 308 due to the recoil difference

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Check out this terrible bipod hop!!

5 rounds @ 600 meters in 1 moa

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[Sig685]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

This discussion has taken a turn away from reality.

The video shows veteran competitors using expertly-prepared rifles with which they probably sleep, outshoot military shooters with their issued equipment in a very specific discipline. What does this prove?

1- That shooting discipline looks like a lot of fun.
2- Use the tool that is appropriate to the venue and use it well.
3- You can't miss fast enough to win.

I would not extrapolate any further and try to make general statements regarding bolt action versus semi because the video does not support it.

We do not know the parameters of the competition other than it is 25 seconds. We have no clue what the distances are nor do we know the target size and what causes the numbers to increase. (Is it an X or 10?) When one knows the parameters, one can then adjust the equipment and the style to enhance scoring chances.

Does anyone know what the parameters are? My search-fu is hindered by my lack of proficiency is Norwegian, but I will continue looking.

ssgp2: They let you have evil black rifles in Quebec? You must be LE or store your rifles south of the border.

 

[okiefired]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Nothing proves anything unless the test are conducted without giving advantage. Set them up equally i.e.: both with bipod or both with sling or both without anything. Make the optics equal, both will quality triggers and people of equal tallent and taining running them. IMO, the gasser's gonna take this, especially from 600 in. Sure we could fill the gasser up with sand or visa versa and make the results go in any direction we want to but set up equally is the only way to get any good info.

okie

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At a competition last year, I could see my rounds impact at 500yds.
5 rounds in about 9 seconds, shooting prone with bipod and monopod.

The 2 first round I waited to see the impact on target, the last 3 where shot when the reticle got back on target.

AR 10 in 260 Rem, Gap upper, Geissele trigger(first stage 2#/ second stage 10 ounces), USO SN3, 3.8x22x44, H39 reticle.
139grs at 2600fps

It was the first time I had the opportunity to shoot in this situation and would of loved to spend the day practicing that drill.

I had an AR15, CLE 24" kreiger, this thing did no moved at all from the target and I won't compare a 223 to a 308 due to the recoil difference</div></div>

FYI,

You're shots where at 600 yards, on 12" plates... and it was just a bit shy of 9 seconds, more like 8.3. 8.5 because I was slow on the clock stopping it as I couldn't get anywhere close to calling your hits fast enough to keep up with your shots... I wish I had a video camera on you... that same drill it takes a good bolt gunner about 13 seconds.

 

[ckirkc]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I felt like i had a pretty solid advantage with my AR10 on the movers as well as the 5 plates at 600 at the comp

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

No question about it, it's fast bolt gun shooting. But, I agree, a match AR15 or AR10, especially in any "enhanced" round is going to win. I have a CETME which is the forerunner to the G3. I'll grant it's no where near as accurate as G3's out there but it certainly isn't as fast as my AR15 while staying on target.

FWIW, the specs on the competition are as many hits as you can in 25 seconds on a target (of various shapes?) aproximately 10", that is ranged between 240m and 300m. I say various shapes because I've seen circles, head silhouettes, and diamonds. Am I wrong TorF?

Edit II:

Also, I thought the rifles were customized Sig-Sauer SSG 3000's.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

It would of made a nice souvenir to have a video of that stage.

Actually, a video of all shooters on every stage would be a nice training tool.
I could learn a few tricks from Terry and other shooters.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Some of yall are funny! Apparently some of have never shot high power competition. Making excuses for the poor autoshucker shooters. heehee

John

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of yall are funny! Apparently some of have never shot high power competition. Making excuses for the poor autoshucker shooters. heehee

John
</div></div>

I don't see where I was making excuses for auto shooters.

 

[Super Bee 950]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I won a state match because a gas gun was WAY faster than the bolt.

it went like this...
Four, 4 inch plates at 100 yards. From a standing position drop and fire when you hear the buzzer and engage the targets with only one shot per plate. I was using an M25(308), and hit the last target around the 7 or 8 second mark. The fastest bolt gunners ran in the 11 second and up range.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Didnt actually say YOU did, but it was your post that got the reply so yeah, looks that way. Some others were the ones I was referring to. But, I would still differ with your statement that a gas gun will win.

John