Would bolt sleeving help in anyway? If so what are the pro and con of doing it?and what does it run on price? And is it referred to a different name, I search but nothing came up Thanks
Gunsmithing Bolt sleeving
- Thread starter rotoflex
- Start date
Re: Bolt sleeving
I would say, it takes up a little slop in the bolt/ raceway area that will lead to tighter tolerences. This in turn will improve consisentency with the round going straight in the chamber. which will improve accuracy... Mostly done on benchrest rifles because it makes the tolerences so small. On a working gun/duty rifle/field rifle this is a bad thing. A little dirt or grit, long shoot shooting session, or just neglect in cleaning.....and your all locked up. no extra area in there for foreign ebodies... just my opinion. why do you think Ak's function is such harsh enviroments? cause they are looser than two dollar whores.
I would say, it takes up a little slop in the bolt/ raceway area that will lead to tighter tolerences. This in turn will improve consisentency with the round going straight in the chamber. which will improve accuracy... Mostly done on benchrest rifles because it makes the tolerences so small. On a working gun/duty rifle/field rifle this is a bad thing. A little dirt or grit, long shoot shooting session, or just neglect in cleaning.....and your all locked up. no extra area in there for foreign ebodies... just my opinion. why do you think Ak's function is such harsh enviroments? cause they are looser than two dollar whores.
Re: Bolt sleeving
When the bolt is sleeved it fits tightly within the raceways. When cocked and the sear releases there is no upward jump as there is in a unsleeved bolt. Or at least it is minimized to a few millionths of an inch. The factory bolt may move 3 to 5 thousandths, and in the benchrest world that matters. A lot.
For the long range tactical marksman or hunter, not so much. I do not have the bolt sleeved on my hunting rig. After a low crawl through the sandy soil we have around here it is too easy to gum up the action if it is tight.
One way to get this slop out without sleeving the bolt is to ream the raceway of the reciever to a specific size and get the PTG bolt that size for the rifle. Easy as pie.
When the bolt is sleeved it fits tightly within the raceways. When cocked and the sear releases there is no upward jump as there is in a unsleeved bolt. Or at least it is minimized to a few millionths of an inch. The factory bolt may move 3 to 5 thousandths, and in the benchrest world that matters. A lot.
For the long range tactical marksman or hunter, not so much. I do not have the bolt sleeved on my hunting rig. After a low crawl through the sandy soil we have around here it is too easy to gum up the action if it is tight.
One way to get this slop out without sleeving the bolt is to ream the raceway of the reciever to a specific size and get the PTG bolt that size for the rifle. Easy as pie.
Re: Bolt sleeving
If I was going to think about bolt sleeving, I would just ream out the raceway and install a PTG over sized one piece bolt.
You will spend around $200 for sleeving anyway, might as well get a bolt with a threaded handle, Sako or M16 extractor and did i mention its one piece????
Mark
If I was going to think about bolt sleeving, I would just ream out the raceway and install a PTG over sized one piece bolt.
You will spend around $200 for sleeving anyway, might as well get a bolt with a threaded handle, Sako or M16 extractor and did i mention its one piece????
Mark
Re: Bolt sleeving
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was going to think about bolt sleeving, I would just ream out the raceway and install a PTG over sized one piece bolt.
You will spend around $200 for sleeving anyway, might as well get a bolt with a threaded handle, Sako or M16 extractor and did i mention its one piece????
Mark
</div></div>
Bingo!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was going to think about bolt sleeving, I would just ream out the raceway and install a PTG over sized one piece bolt.
You will spend around $200 for sleeving anyway, might as well get a bolt with a threaded handle, Sako or M16 extractor and did i mention its one piece????
Mark
</div></div>
Bingo!
Re: Bolt sleeving
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was going to think about bolt sleeving, I would just ream out the raceway and install a PTG over sized one piece bolt.
You will spend around $200 for sleeving anyway, might as well get a bolt with a threaded handle, Sako or M16 extractor and did i mention its one piece????
Mark
</div></div>
Bingo! </div></div>
I figured you would be on the same page!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was going to think about bolt sleeving, I would just ream out the raceway and install a PTG over sized one piece bolt.
You will spend around $200 for sleeving anyway, might as well get a bolt with a threaded handle, Sako or M16 extractor and did i mention its one piece????
Mark
</div></div>
Bingo! </div></div>
I figured you would be on the same page!
Re: Bolt sleeving
Sit down with a calculator once and take some numbers off of an action. I've done this a few times to double check myself. With a .700 bolt and a .705 receiver bore the angular deflection works out to less than 1/10th of a degree.
The top lug of the bolt ends up being less than .001" away from the lug of the receiver.
These values are going to change slightly based on the length of the receiver. Short actions are going to see bigger deviations than long actions for a given tolerance.
I've never bushed a bolt so it would very dishonest/foolish of me to state that it doesn't do anything to improve accuracy. I have however built a number of guns with so called "sloppy" tolerances and they have all shot quite well. Most importantly they shoot well hot, cold, wet, dry, etc. I further qualify this with a story of a friend who once won a 1000 yard TN State Championship with a rifle using a Mauser action. (I did not build the rifle) Another guy I know shot on the 2003 US Palma Team with an old Remmy 700 that wasn't bushed or "bumped". His X count during practice was right there with all the high dollar boutique actions. (I didn't build this gun either) It's not benchrest, however 1K with iron sights in an unsupported prone position isn't the easiest thing to do well either.
As already suggested its quite possible to paint yourself in a corner with tolerances and end up with a gun that only works in a vacuum or completely sterile environment.
Hope this helped.
C
Sit down with a calculator once and take some numbers off of an action. I've done this a few times to double check myself. With a .700 bolt and a .705 receiver bore the angular deflection works out to less than 1/10th of a degree.
The top lug of the bolt ends up being less than .001" away from the lug of the receiver.
These values are going to change slightly based on the length of the receiver. Short actions are going to see bigger deviations than long actions for a given tolerance.
I've never bushed a bolt so it would very dishonest/foolish of me to state that it doesn't do anything to improve accuracy. I have however built a number of guns with so called "sloppy" tolerances and they have all shot quite well. Most importantly they shoot well hot, cold, wet, dry, etc. I further qualify this with a story of a friend who once won a 1000 yard TN State Championship with a rifle using a Mauser action. (I did not build the rifle) Another guy I know shot on the 2003 US Palma Team with an old Remmy 700 that wasn't bushed or "bumped". His X count during practice was right there with all the high dollar boutique actions. (I didn't build this gun either) It's not benchrest, however 1K with iron sights in an unsupported prone position isn't the easiest thing to do well either.
As already suggested its quite possible to paint yourself in a corner with tolerances and end up with a gun that only works in a vacuum or completely sterile environment.
Hope this helped.
C
Re: Bolt sleeving
I'm with ya, C.
I don’t think what happens aft of the lugs have much, if any, effect on the bullets journey from the breech to the target.
Many have argued with me on this, but have not swayed my opinion.
Three of the four rifles that won the 2006 TN state F/TR team championship were my builds. Two more of my builds claimed national records a couple of years ago.
All I did to the actions were square up the receiver faces & lapped in the bolt lugs.
Championships are made to fall and records made to be broken, so ain’t no big thing. I mention this only to ascertain that I have at least a modicum of experience in this game.
I'm with ya, C.
I don’t think what happens aft of the lugs have much, if any, effect on the bullets journey from the breech to the target.
Many have argued with me on this, but have not swayed my opinion.
Three of the four rifles that won the 2006 TN state F/TR team championship were my builds. Two more of my builds claimed national records a couple of years ago.
All I did to the actions were square up the receiver faces & lapped in the bolt lugs.
Championships are made to fall and records made to be broken, so ain’t no big thing. I mention this only to ascertain that I have at least a modicum of experience in this game.
Re: Bolt sleeving
Someone much smarter then I oncae said once you get past the lugs the rest can be made of marshmellows.
Someone much smarter then I oncae said once you get past the lugs the rest can be made of marshmellows.
Re: Bolt sleeving
I agree with Mark, if you feel you must have those close tolerances, order the bolt from PTG and you will get a top quality bolt. If you are trying to save money, and have all the tools, and know how, and want to do it for fun then by all means, do. I have done my share of sleeving bolts, and I personally can't justify the time it takes to do it versus ordering what I need from PTG. All that said, as C. Dixon said I also have had bolts that I trued as a complete build that shot very well, just as good as the tight fitting bolts. Good luck with which ever way you decide on.
I agree with Mark, if you feel you must have those close tolerances, order the bolt from PTG and you will get a top quality bolt. If you are trying to save money, and have all the tools, and know how, and want to do it for fun then by all means, do. I have done my share of sleeving bolts, and I personally can't justify the time it takes to do it versus ordering what I need from PTG. All that said, as C. Dixon said I also have had bolts that I trued as a complete build that shot very well, just as good as the tight fitting bolts. Good luck with which ever way you decide on.
Re: Bolt sleeving
I agree with reaming and ordering the PTG bolt to the desired tolerance, but I would get the rem style extractor instead of the sako style, simply for the safety factor.
I agree with reaming and ordering the PTG bolt to the desired tolerance, but I would get the rem style extractor instead of the sako style, simply for the safety factor.
Re: Bolt sleeving
If the bolt clearance makes no difference, Why do bench rest actions have a tighter fit? It is because it is proven that rifles are more accurate with the bolt held to the center line of the action (bolt face is square and you have top and bottom lug contact during ignition)and everything happens more uniformly shot after shot due to less movement of the bolt.
NOW, with that being said you can still build a great rifle by just truing the action and bolt even though there is plenty of bolt/action clearance. Every quality builder is capable of making accurate rifles built off of factory actions.
Bench rest actions and sleeved, tight fitting bolts have their place. Its up to you to decide the mission of your rifle first off and then decide how to get you there. I would not want to be taking a tight fitting/sleeved bolt somewhere where my life depended on it. Function would always win over extreme accuracy.
Mark
If the bolt clearance makes no difference, Why do bench rest actions have a tighter fit? It is because it is proven that rifles are more accurate with the bolt held to the center line of the action (bolt face is square and you have top and bottom lug contact during ignition)and everything happens more uniformly shot after shot due to less movement of the bolt.
NOW, with that being said you can still build a great rifle by just truing the action and bolt even though there is plenty of bolt/action clearance. Every quality builder is capable of making accurate rifles built off of factory actions.
Bench rest actions and sleeved, tight fitting bolts have their place. Its up to you to decide the mission of your rifle first off and then decide how to get you there. I would not want to be taking a tight fitting/sleeved bolt somewhere where my life depended on it. Function would always win over extreme accuracy.
Mark
Re: Bolt sleeving
My thoughts on this and on other 'get that last silly millimeter of accuracy' techniques are pretty general.
Most shooters could do all the sexy fixes and never see a difference.
Until you can shoot well enough to take full advantage of fractional MOA improvements, all you're really doing is pampering an ego.
Personally, I can't offord an ego.
Greg
My thoughts on this and on other 'get that last silly millimeter of accuracy' techniques are pretty general.
Most shooters could do all the sexy fixes and never see a difference.
Until you can shoot well enough to take full advantage of fractional MOA improvements, all you're really doing is pampering an ego.
Personally, I can't offord an ego.
Greg
Re: Bolt sleeving
I don't have proof or decades of experience to back this up but I expect that the primary "accuracy benefit" of tight bolt tolerances is the positive effect it will have on fire control. Most BR shooters use super light trigger pull weights, sometimes fractions of ounces. Loose bolt fit will tend to create sloppy sear engagement and this will make it difficult to achieve trigger pull weights that are light, consistent and safe.
I don't have proof or decades of experience to back this up but I expect that the primary "accuracy benefit" of tight bolt tolerances is the positive effect it will have on fire control. Most BR shooters use super light trigger pull weights, sometimes fractions of ounces. Loose bolt fit will tend to create sloppy sear engagement and this will make it difficult to achieve trigger pull weights that are light, consistent and safe.
Re: Bolt sleeving
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the bolt clearance makes no difference, Why do bench rest actions have a tighter fit? It is because it is proven that rifles are more accurate with the bolt held to the center line of the action (bolt face is square and you have top and bottom lug contact during ignition)and everything happens more uniformly shot after shot due to less movement of the bolt.
NOW, with that being said you can still build a great rifle by just truing the action and bolt even though there is plenty of bolt/action clearance. Every quality builder is capable of making accurate rifles built off of factory actions.
Bench rest actions and sleeved, tight fitting bolts have their place. Its up to you to decide the mission of your rifle first off and then decide how to get you there. I would not want to be taking a tight fitting/sleeved bolt somewhere where my life depended on it. Function would always win over extreme accuracy.
Mark </div></div>
Mark,
Is it? Is it a fact? Before this goes further let me just say this is a high minded discussion and nothing more. By no means is this a UFC match.
Facts are funny things. It's a fact that I can put a piece a stock in a lathe and face it off, then turn it with the same tool and know that those two features are at a right angle to one another.
Right up to the point that I hand it to the boys in the metrology lab to be dissected and told just how far off it really is.
Unless someone has built 100 guns sleeved and 100 guns as loose as the prom queen and shot them side by side for thousands of rounds in a variety of conditions, by a variety of qualified trigger pullers, and documented every single shot group. sniffle, fart, and cough then I'm afraid I still have to challenge the notion that the cartridge really cares if the bolt has room to wiggle around a little.
Does a primer really care if the striker is out of alignment by .001"? I doubt it. I've seen guns with primer strikes a 1/3d of its diameter off center. I can tell you I wouldn't want to go up against the guy in a shoot off. Everything the primer does gets squirted into a tiny hole anyway.
I think to directly answer your question regarding benchrest actions it's a combination of hype, marketing, and all of us (myself included at one time) looking to benchrest as the all knowing all seeing wizards of accurate gun making.
Benchrest guys also "hand snap" a barrel onto the receiver and shoot amazingly small groups. So should we all be doing that? Try that once on a 1K Palma rifle. It doesn't work. It doesn't work on a real no shit tac gun either.
Benchrest guys spend a day prepping five little cases that they load over and over. They'll spend thousands of dollars on exotic reloading equipment. Then they throw a charge and go shoot. Throw a charge once on a 1K gun and you'll learn just what the 8 ring is all about.
It's an apple/orange comparision. If I (as a consumer) walk into a gun shop and there's two factory guns side by side and one "feels" tighter/slicker than the other I'm naturally going to be inclined to buy that one over the other.
The whole preface behind a Nesika, BAT, Borden, Defiance, Kelby, etc action is that it's made to a higher standard than what's common at Cabellas. You pay more for better materials, better workmanship, better design, and (hopefully) better performance.
However, making the statement that benchrest insists on minimal tolerances because of the performance gain is something I still have trouble subscribing to and I build a lot of bench guns.
Take a long hard look at the events that take place when a gun goes bang. The striker is released and begins moving forward. Simultaniously the bolt is attempting to accelerate in the opposite direction, but it can't because there's four lug surfaces preventing it. The striker makes initial impact with the primer. This encourages the cartridge to want to move forward with the striker but two things are mucking it up: The physical mass of the loaded cartridge and the point where the shoulder datum and/or bullet gets enough resistance from the chamber to bring forward movement to an abrupt stop.
Now the anvil and cup get squished and a hot jet squirts into the powder column. In the blink of an eye the chamber pressure goes from ambient to several hundred/thousand orders of magnitude larger. Because a gun is a pressure vessel the forces generated by the powder turning to gas react with every surface it contacts at a right angle. In every cartridge there is significantly more surface area on the case body than the case head. What I'm saying is the amount of force exerted on the bolt is relatively conservative when compared to what's going on everywhere else. This means the cartridge really can't move that much (at all).
I qualify this with the stream of horror stories where some knuckle head loads a magnum with pistol powder or builds a boomer magnum with a poor action. when the thing blows up does the whole case come out of the gun or does it split at the web and leave the bulk of it shoved in there?
It splits 99 times out of a 100 and leaves the bulk of the case in the chamber? What's my point?
If the case is locked tight against the chamber then does it really care if the bolt is out of alignment by a small degree? With the good common sense my daddy gave me I have to say no it isn't. Not enough to matter at the distances centerfire rifles are shot at.
If a customer is on a budget and I'm given a choice between spending his hard earned money on tuning up a receiver or using it to invest in a better quality barrel I'll tell the customer to spend it on the barrel every time and use the left over for gas to get to the range more often to practice.
I shoot myself in a foot with this because it's labor dollars that now go to the barrel company/gas pump instead of my wallet. Experience has taught me that 99/100 times its the right decision though because in the end the rifle shoots better.
I already know what I'm stating here is going to be scrutinized heavily and it'll likely digress into something where its insinuated that I take a half ass approach to tuning up an action. I play the marketing game just like everyone else does so I can safely say that is not the case. Customers want what customers want and they'll pay good money to someone to get it.
So, just like everyone else in this trade I do my best to deliver.
Temper that with knowing however that truth be told I have yet (after 12 years) to have it conclusively demonstrated to me that a "tight bolt" will shoot better than a "loose bolt". There is a human factor in this also in that if a shooter has confidence in his/her equipment they will likely perform better. A rattle trap rifle usually isn't very inspiring-especially when a guy pays someone good money for it. Basically there's no easy answer to this.
Thanks for reading. I better get at it. Testing guns in 14 degree weather today! SD ROCKS!
C
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the bolt clearance makes no difference, Why do bench rest actions have a tighter fit? It is because it is proven that rifles are more accurate with the bolt held to the center line of the action (bolt face is square and you have top and bottom lug contact during ignition)and everything happens more uniformly shot after shot due to less movement of the bolt.
NOW, with that being said you can still build a great rifle by just truing the action and bolt even though there is plenty of bolt/action clearance. Every quality builder is capable of making accurate rifles built off of factory actions.
Bench rest actions and sleeved, tight fitting bolts have their place. Its up to you to decide the mission of your rifle first off and then decide how to get you there. I would not want to be taking a tight fitting/sleeved bolt somewhere where my life depended on it. Function would always win over extreme accuracy.
Mark </div></div>
Mark,
Is it? Is it a fact? Before this goes further let me just say this is a high minded discussion and nothing more. By no means is this a UFC match.
Facts are funny things. It's a fact that I can put a piece a stock in a lathe and face it off, then turn it with the same tool and know that those two features are at a right angle to one another.
Right up to the point that I hand it to the boys in the metrology lab to be dissected and told just how far off it really is.
Unless someone has built 100 guns sleeved and 100 guns as loose as the prom queen and shot them side by side for thousands of rounds in a variety of conditions, by a variety of qualified trigger pullers, and documented every single shot group. sniffle, fart, and cough then I'm afraid I still have to challenge the notion that the cartridge really cares if the bolt has room to wiggle around a little.
Does a primer really care if the striker is out of alignment by .001"? I doubt it. I've seen guns with primer strikes a 1/3d of its diameter off center. I can tell you I wouldn't want to go up against the guy in a shoot off. Everything the primer does gets squirted into a tiny hole anyway.
I think to directly answer your question regarding benchrest actions it's a combination of hype, marketing, and all of us (myself included at one time) looking to benchrest as the all knowing all seeing wizards of accurate gun making.
Benchrest guys also "hand snap" a barrel onto the receiver and shoot amazingly small groups. So should we all be doing that? Try that once on a 1K Palma rifle. It doesn't work. It doesn't work on a real no shit tac gun either.
Benchrest guys spend a day prepping five little cases that they load over and over. They'll spend thousands of dollars on exotic reloading equipment. Then they throw a charge and go shoot. Throw a charge once on a 1K gun and you'll learn just what the 8 ring is all about.
It's an apple/orange comparision. If I (as a consumer) walk into a gun shop and there's two factory guns side by side and one "feels" tighter/slicker than the other I'm naturally going to be inclined to buy that one over the other.
The whole preface behind a Nesika, BAT, Borden, Defiance, Kelby, etc action is that it's made to a higher standard than what's common at Cabellas. You pay more for better materials, better workmanship, better design, and (hopefully) better performance.
However, making the statement that benchrest insists on minimal tolerances because of the performance gain is something I still have trouble subscribing to and I build a lot of bench guns.
Take a long hard look at the events that take place when a gun goes bang. The striker is released and begins moving forward. Simultaniously the bolt is attempting to accelerate in the opposite direction, but it can't because there's four lug surfaces preventing it. The striker makes initial impact with the primer. This encourages the cartridge to want to move forward with the striker but two things are mucking it up: The physical mass of the loaded cartridge and the point where the shoulder datum and/or bullet gets enough resistance from the chamber to bring forward movement to an abrupt stop.
Now the anvil and cup get squished and a hot jet squirts into the powder column. In the blink of an eye the chamber pressure goes from ambient to several hundred/thousand orders of magnitude larger. Because a gun is a pressure vessel the forces generated by the powder turning to gas react with every surface it contacts at a right angle. In every cartridge there is significantly more surface area on the case body than the case head. What I'm saying is the amount of force exerted on the bolt is relatively conservative when compared to what's going on everywhere else. This means the cartridge really can't move that much (at all).
I qualify this with the stream of horror stories where some knuckle head loads a magnum with pistol powder or builds a boomer magnum with a poor action. when the thing blows up does the whole case come out of the gun or does it split at the web and leave the bulk of it shoved in there?
It splits 99 times out of a 100 and leaves the bulk of the case in the chamber? What's my point?
If the case is locked tight against the chamber then does it really care if the bolt is out of alignment by a small degree? With the good common sense my daddy gave me I have to say no it isn't. Not enough to matter at the distances centerfire rifles are shot at.
If a customer is on a budget and I'm given a choice between spending his hard earned money on tuning up a receiver or using it to invest in a better quality barrel I'll tell the customer to spend it on the barrel every time and use the left over for gas to get to the range more often to practice.
I shoot myself in a foot with this because it's labor dollars that now go to the barrel company/gas pump instead of my wallet. Experience has taught me that 99/100 times its the right decision though because in the end the rifle shoots better.
I already know what I'm stating here is going to be scrutinized heavily and it'll likely digress into something where its insinuated that I take a half ass approach to tuning up an action. I play the marketing game just like everyone else does so I can safely say that is not the case. Customers want what customers want and they'll pay good money to someone to get it.
So, just like everyone else in this trade I do my best to deliver.
Temper that with knowing however that truth be told I have yet (after 12 years) to have it conclusively demonstrated to me that a "tight bolt" will shoot better than a "loose bolt". There is a human factor in this also in that if a shooter has confidence in his/her equipment they will likely perform better. A rattle trap rifle usually isn't very inspiring-especially when a guy pays someone good money for it. Basically there's no easy answer to this.
Thanks for reading. I better get at it. Testing guns in 14 degree weather today! SD ROCKS!
C
Re: Bolt sleeving
Are you guys familiar with Borden Bumps? If not, you ought to be. It is a clever idea comprising a short, accurately sized OD immediately behind the bolt lugs and another immediately in front of the bolt handle. When the bolt is closed and cammed forward, these accurate diameters engaged the receiver bore which also has a well controlled diameter. So when the bolt it closed, there is minimal clearance between it and the receiver bore. When opened, the accurate bolt diameters disengage the receiver bore providing ample clearance for dirt, smooth motion, etc. It is a clever idea and described in US patent number 6,209,249.
Are you guys familiar with Borden Bumps? If not, you ought to be. It is a clever idea comprising a short, accurately sized OD immediately behind the bolt lugs and another immediately in front of the bolt handle. When the bolt is closed and cammed forward, these accurate diameters engaged the receiver bore which also has a well controlled diameter. So when the bolt it closed, there is minimal clearance between it and the receiver bore. When opened, the accurate bolt diameters disengage the receiver bore providing ample clearance for dirt, smooth motion, etc. It is a clever idea and described in US patent number 6,209,249.
Re: Bolt sleeving
A precisely located bolt within a receiver has to be good for accuracy because it eliminates or reduces the effects of a variable, that being the degree to which a bolt can rattle around in a receiver during the 1.4 milliseconds it take for the bullet to travel down the length of a barrel. In so far that precision (repeatability) is important to consistently high performing rifles, striving to reduce the effects or to eliminate such variables should be considered best practice. The degree to which such practice will be beneficial greatly depends on the design of the firearm. The benefit will probably be greater in a 6 pound 300 WSM than in a 16 pound 308 Palma rifle with a long barrel. It has been my experience that the latter is surprisingly insensitive.
A precisely located bolt within a receiver has to be good for accuracy because it eliminates or reduces the effects of a variable, that being the degree to which a bolt can rattle around in a receiver during the 1.4 milliseconds it take for the bullet to travel down the length of a barrel. In so far that precision (repeatability) is important to consistently high performing rifles, striving to reduce the effects or to eliminate such variables should be considered best practice. The degree to which such practice will be beneficial greatly depends on the design of the firearm. The benefit will probably be greater in a 6 pound 300 WSM than in a 16 pound 308 Palma rifle with a long barrel. It has been my experience that the latter is surprisingly insensitive.
Re: Bolt sleeving
Borden bumps are std equipment on Nesika actions. Prior to Mr. Borden bringing everything in house around 2002-2003 Nesika made a handful of his actions using the bumped bolts.
I was the production manager for the company from 2003-2006. I personally held a few in my hands.
In theory they are great. In practice they <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> create more problems then they solve.
Just one example:
2001-2003 I was heavily involved with international Palma. Half dozen shooters I know (on the big team) used Nesika actions and they worked well. Right up to the point when we went to Raton, NM at the NRA Whittington Center. The firing points are coal slag and guys spent more time scrubbing receivers than they did shooting.
Ok, one more example:
Ceracoat/falcon coat/TIALN a Nesika out of the box and your likely to discover that once coated it runs like crap. If you don't sand the bumps down a bit the action won't work. A lot of gunsmiths and shooters have discovered this the hard way.
Is it a novel idea? You bet. I have the utmost respect for Jim Borden. He's the very definition of purist and I don't think compromise exists in his vocabulary. I still question whether it's the difference between a great shooting rifle and a "so so" one.
I back this up with one more little tidbit. Boyd Allen out in CA is a benchrest addict and friend of mine. He's been dinking around with these things since before I was born probably. I can't place the name but there is a world class BR shooter who uses good ol plain jane Remingtons that Boyd told me about once. His recipe for action work involves leaving the factory extractor in the bolt face and running the breech ring so tight in ID that the OD of the bolt centers on it. Essentially the hole behind the lugs all the way to the rear bridge could be large enough to drive a truck through. The guy has won just about everything in BR so it's tough to argue it. (least for me anyway)
If the bumps are the secret then only two action manufacturers should ever appear on the winners lists at all the big name BR events. Bordens and Nesika. We know this isn't the case. There's plenty of others getting their fair share of wins as well.
Grunig/Elmiger and Bleikker make some of the most off the wall actions on planet earth for a bolt gun. They dominate international 300meter competition. The accuracy of these rifles is well established and leaves little to question. So much in fact that the USAMU has an nice inventory of the Bleikkers now.
Neither use a bump or bushing on the bolts and they run like chit through a goose. I've had the privilege of servicing, building, selling, and supporting these two brands of rifles. There's maybe a handful in the US and they aren't cheap.
As I stated earlier. Until someone builds a good number of guns and does a side by side Pepsi challenge I'm not convinced. There are too many other variables at work here and there are too many "sloppy" WSM's out there in gun land that weigh under 10lbs that shoot very well, exceptional even.
As for Palma guns being insensitive: In 2003 I was an armorer for the US team. I watched an RPA Quadlock go from half an X ring to half the tgt due to a striker spring going weak. Replaced the aftermarket spring with the factory original belleville washers and suddenly it behaved itself again.
My best friend David Karcher (2002 US National Highpower Champion-Service Rifle) had a rifle built by a very, very respected Palma gunsmith and it was minute of 8 ring at 1k due to the recoil lug being attached to the bottom of the receiver by a 6mx1 screw with 2 revs of engagement. Fixed that by putting it in the CG chassis/stock and suddenly it became a shooter.
They are hardly insensitive or benign to change. If they were I doubt guys like David, Charles Clark, or a host of others would be camped out in their basements all winter weighing individual bullets.
Still not convinced. Sorry.
Respectfully,
Chad
Borden bumps are std equipment on Nesika actions. Prior to Mr. Borden bringing everything in house around 2002-2003 Nesika made a handful of his actions using the bumped bolts.
I was the production manager for the company from 2003-2006. I personally held a few in my hands.
In theory they are great. In practice they <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> create more problems then they solve.
Just one example:
2001-2003 I was heavily involved with international Palma. Half dozen shooters I know (on the big team) used Nesika actions and they worked well. Right up to the point when we went to Raton, NM at the NRA Whittington Center. The firing points are coal slag and guys spent more time scrubbing receivers than they did shooting.
Ok, one more example:
Ceracoat/falcon coat/TIALN a Nesika out of the box and your likely to discover that once coated it runs like crap. If you don't sand the bumps down a bit the action won't work. A lot of gunsmiths and shooters have discovered this the hard way.
Is it a novel idea? You bet. I have the utmost respect for Jim Borden. He's the very definition of purist and I don't think compromise exists in his vocabulary. I still question whether it's the difference between a great shooting rifle and a "so so" one.
I back this up with one more little tidbit. Boyd Allen out in CA is a benchrest addict and friend of mine. He's been dinking around with these things since before I was born probably. I can't place the name but there is a world class BR shooter who uses good ol plain jane Remingtons that Boyd told me about once. His recipe for action work involves leaving the factory extractor in the bolt face and running the breech ring so tight in ID that the OD of the bolt centers on it. Essentially the hole behind the lugs all the way to the rear bridge could be large enough to drive a truck through. The guy has won just about everything in BR so it's tough to argue it. (least for me anyway)
If the bumps are the secret then only two action manufacturers should ever appear on the winners lists at all the big name BR events. Bordens and Nesika. We know this isn't the case. There's plenty of others getting their fair share of wins as well.
Grunig/Elmiger and Bleikker make some of the most off the wall actions on planet earth for a bolt gun. They dominate international 300meter competition. The accuracy of these rifles is well established and leaves little to question. So much in fact that the USAMU has an nice inventory of the Bleikkers now.
Neither use a bump or bushing on the bolts and they run like chit through a goose. I've had the privilege of servicing, building, selling, and supporting these two brands of rifles. There's maybe a handful in the US and they aren't cheap.
As I stated earlier. Until someone builds a good number of guns and does a side by side Pepsi challenge I'm not convinced. There are too many other variables at work here and there are too many "sloppy" WSM's out there in gun land that weigh under 10lbs that shoot very well, exceptional even.
As for Palma guns being insensitive: In 2003 I was an armorer for the US team. I watched an RPA Quadlock go from half an X ring to half the tgt due to a striker spring going weak. Replaced the aftermarket spring with the factory original belleville washers and suddenly it behaved itself again.
My best friend David Karcher (2002 US National Highpower Champion-Service Rifle) had a rifle built by a very, very respected Palma gunsmith and it was minute of 8 ring at 1k due to the recoil lug being attached to the bottom of the receiver by a 6mx1 screw with 2 revs of engagement. Fixed that by putting it in the CG chassis/stock and suddenly it became a shooter.
They are hardly insensitive or benign to change. If they were I doubt guys like David, Charles Clark, or a host of others would be camped out in their basements all winter weighing individual bullets.
Still not convinced. Sorry.
Respectfully,
Chad
Re: Bolt sleeving
I disscussed the topping of bolt fit and action blue printing with hall of fame BR shooter , world record holder and custom gun builder Don Geraci several times in friendly "arguments" his oppinion is that a good barrel fitted and chambered properly will shoot well if the bedding is good. His exact words were "you can set of the round with a hammer and it will be accurate if the chamber is cut well and bedded properly.
Its hard to argue with success like his and his rifles built on rem action NOT blueprinted chambered in sub mag rounds shoot to 3/8" at 100yds or he is not happy with it.
personaly I like to eliminate an many variables as possible so I'd like the bolt as tight as possible when locked closed , the bolt fully trued and timed to the reciever. Does it make a differance? i doubt it
I disscussed the topping of bolt fit and action blue printing with hall of fame BR shooter , world record holder and custom gun builder Don Geraci several times in friendly "arguments" his oppinion is that a good barrel fitted and chambered properly will shoot well if the bedding is good. His exact words were "you can set of the round with a hammer and it will be accurate if the chamber is cut well and bedded properly.
Its hard to argue with success like his and his rifles built on rem action NOT blueprinted chambered in sub mag rounds shoot to 3/8" at 100yds or he is not happy with it.
personaly I like to eliminate an many variables as possible so I'd like the bolt as tight as possible when locked closed , the bolt fully trued and timed to the reciever. Does it make a differance? i doubt it
Re: Bolt sleeving
I think yer buddy is one smert fella.
C
I think yer buddy is one smert fella.
C
Re: Bolt sleeving
Thanks to all who participated in this question. I have read all post and now I got a better understanding.
Thanks to all who participated in this question. I have read all post and now I got a better understanding.
Re: Bolt sleeving
C. Dixon,
"I can't place the name but there is a world class BR shooter who uses good ol plain jane Remingtons that Boyd told me about once. His recipe for action work involves leaving the factory extractor in the bolt face and running the breech ring so tight in ID that the OD of the bolt centers on it. Essentially the hole behind the lugs all the way to the rear bridge could be large enough to drive a truck through. The guy has won just about everything in BR so it's tough to argue it."
I'd like to know more about this. Are you able to expand on it a little?
Thank you,
Longshooter
C. Dixon,
"I can't place the name but there is a world class BR shooter who uses good ol plain jane Remingtons that Boyd told me about once. His recipe for action work involves leaving the factory extractor in the bolt face and running the breech ring so tight in ID that the OD of the bolt centers on it. Essentially the hole behind the lugs all the way to the rear bridge could be large enough to drive a truck through. The guy has won just about everything in BR so it's tough to argue it."
I'd like to know more about this. Are you able to expand on it a little?
Thank you,
Longshooter
Re: Bolt sleeving
First off, I enjoy threads that more technical topics can be discussed with out any tempers raging and people getting all bent out of shape. There is a lot of experience in this thread regardless what the magical answer is (that at the end of the day nobody can truly prove) I think its great to hear from the experiences and thoughts from members on this site.
What clicks in my brain about what is right and what may be better might not be the same as anybody else. But by sticking with what feels right to me will allow me to learn and explore more about my own practices and theories. What would not be right is to subscribe to others ideas as my own with out one way or another testing and evaluating.
Let me get to my point. If a customer came to me and said "build me an accurate rifle!" I would suggest installing a good quality barrel with solid, accurate machining. Next would be truing the action or better yet getting a nice custom action set up for the shooters intended purpose.
I have a hard time believing that an action that holds the bolt centered in the action, holds the lugs in contact before and during ignition and is tighter (bolt clearance) would not shoot better than a standard action from the factory.
It just plain makes sense (TO ME) that the features of most custom actions and more specifically bench rest style actions have, would at the very least not harm the accuracy potential of a rifle.
With a standard action with an action face that is not square, lugs that are not in contact and threads that are not concentric I cant imagine that it would be beneficial to accuracy when compared to a trued action.
<span style="font-style: italic">"As for Palma guns being insensitive: In 2003 I was an armorer for the US team. I watched an RPA Quadlock go from half an X ring to half the tgt due to a striker spring going weak. Replaced the aftermarket spring with the factory original belleville washers and suddenly it behaved itself again."
</span>
If this is true then as rifle builders looking to build a solid accurate rifle, wouldn't we want to do the best we can with what we have? It seems like there can be relatively small issues that can affect accuracy, so why leave something like an untrue action face in the equation?
Chad, I check out your website and I really enjoy reading your posts. I think many people can see what a beautiful rifle looks like by checking out your work. It is obvious that you have some amazing tools, machines and fixtures in your shop to help you deliver an amazing product. It seems that you spare no expense when it comes to doing a job right.
This is the mentality that I have about making an accurate rifle. Until the day when I realize that some of the techniques or products that I use are indeed not benefiting the customer or accuracy, then I will no longer stand behind that product or service.
Other builders can install a quality barrel with a recoil lug with a .002" variation on thickness sandwiched between an action face with the same amount of runout, but I would not feel comfortable.
By the way, doesn't the shooter have a great deal to do with how well a rifle shoots...??? lol
Happy holidays everybody!
Mark
First off, I enjoy threads that more technical topics can be discussed with out any tempers raging and people getting all bent out of shape. There is a lot of experience in this thread regardless what the magical answer is (that at the end of the day nobody can truly prove) I think its great to hear from the experiences and thoughts from members on this site.
What clicks in my brain about what is right and what may be better might not be the same as anybody else. But by sticking with what feels right to me will allow me to learn and explore more about my own practices and theories. What would not be right is to subscribe to others ideas as my own with out one way or another testing and evaluating.
Let me get to my point. If a customer came to me and said "build me an accurate rifle!" I would suggest installing a good quality barrel with solid, accurate machining. Next would be truing the action or better yet getting a nice custom action set up for the shooters intended purpose.
I have a hard time believing that an action that holds the bolt centered in the action, holds the lugs in contact before and during ignition and is tighter (bolt clearance) would not shoot better than a standard action from the factory.
It just plain makes sense (TO ME) that the features of most custom actions and more specifically bench rest style actions have, would at the very least not harm the accuracy potential of a rifle.
With a standard action with an action face that is not square, lugs that are not in contact and threads that are not concentric I cant imagine that it would be beneficial to accuracy when compared to a trued action.
<span style="font-style: italic">"As for Palma guns being insensitive: In 2003 I was an armorer for the US team. I watched an RPA Quadlock go from half an X ring to half the tgt due to a striker spring going weak. Replaced the aftermarket spring with the factory original belleville washers and suddenly it behaved itself again."
</span>
If this is true then as rifle builders looking to build a solid accurate rifle, wouldn't we want to do the best we can with what we have? It seems like there can be relatively small issues that can affect accuracy, so why leave something like an untrue action face in the equation?
Chad, I check out your website and I really enjoy reading your posts. I think many people can see what a beautiful rifle looks like by checking out your work. It is obvious that you have some amazing tools, machines and fixtures in your shop to help you deliver an amazing product. It seems that you spare no expense when it comes to doing a job right.
This is the mentality that I have about making an accurate rifle. Until the day when I realize that some of the techniques or products that I use are indeed not benefiting the customer or accuracy, then I will no longer stand behind that product or service.
Other builders can install a quality barrel with a recoil lug with a .002" variation on thickness sandwiched between an action face with the same amount of runout, but I would not feel comfortable.
By the way, doesn't the shooter have a great deal to do with how well a rifle shoots...??? lol
Happy holidays everybody!
Mark
Re: Bolt sleeving
Thanks
Thanks
Re: Bolt sleeving
I think that there are many misconceptions about custom actions. I have been building rifles for about 4 years now, mostly on Remington actions. About this time last year i bought my first custom action and soon after bought my second one. Both were used when I bought them, and both were to be used for short range benchrest. First 1 was a Stolle Grizzly II, 2nd was a Stolle Panda. Both are single shots. At first I was surprised at the slop between bolts and raceways, not quite Remmy sloppy but FAR from airtight. This year was my first for shooting formal competition, so I had lots of questions for the more experienced shooters. I talked to several at the shoots that I attended, and talked to some fellas on the phone (most of which I was buying bullets and stuff from online). Anyway, these guys where located from the Carolinas to Arizona. Every one I asked about the best action, they all said "whichever one you can shoot the fastest!!" I was stunned, and probably wouldn't have believed it if 5 different guys from all over the U.S. hadn't said the same thing. They watch the flags, wait for a consistant condition, and blast 5 shots off as fast as they can load and get on target so that condition doesn't change. One fella at the range I went to shot his 5-shot groups in 12 seconds. This is the reason for me buying the Panda, it is a dual port. I set a box on the right to catch empties and feed it on the left.
I thought my actions were worn, but at the shoots i felt several brand new actions and all had movement.
Custom benchrest actions are very concentric, straight, square, stress free, rigid, smooth operating, and have a far superior firing pin assembly. But not tight, a tight bolt would slow the loading process. The exception would be the Bordens which has already been mentioned, and with the "bumps" after the bolt handle is lifted his bolts are sloppy too for a faster "stroke".
Cocking effort, lock time, and consistant ignition are big advantages. One thing that is tight on customs are the firing pin to FP hole fit.
EVERYBODY needs to cycle a custom single shot BR action once. With a couple drops of "bolt magic" oil it feels like rubbing two sticks of buttah together!!
OK....I've blabbered enuff!!!
I think that there are many misconceptions about custom actions. I have been building rifles for about 4 years now, mostly on Remington actions. About this time last year i bought my first custom action and soon after bought my second one. Both were used when I bought them, and both were to be used for short range benchrest. First 1 was a Stolle Grizzly II, 2nd was a Stolle Panda. Both are single shots. At first I was surprised at the slop between bolts and raceways, not quite Remmy sloppy but FAR from airtight. This year was my first for shooting formal competition, so I had lots of questions for the more experienced shooters. I talked to several at the shoots that I attended, and talked to some fellas on the phone (most of which I was buying bullets and stuff from online). Anyway, these guys where located from the Carolinas to Arizona. Every one I asked about the best action, they all said "whichever one you can shoot the fastest!!" I was stunned, and probably wouldn't have believed it if 5 different guys from all over the U.S. hadn't said the same thing. They watch the flags, wait for a consistant condition, and blast 5 shots off as fast as they can load and get on target so that condition doesn't change. One fella at the range I went to shot his 5-shot groups in 12 seconds. This is the reason for me buying the Panda, it is a dual port. I set a box on the right to catch empties and feed it on the left.
I thought my actions were worn, but at the shoots i felt several brand new actions and all had movement.
Custom benchrest actions are very concentric, straight, square, stress free, rigid, smooth operating, and have a far superior firing pin assembly. But not tight, a tight bolt would slow the loading process. The exception would be the Bordens which has already been mentioned, and with the "bumps" after the bolt handle is lifted his bolts are sloppy too for a faster "stroke".
Cocking effort, lock time, and consistant ignition are big advantages. One thing that is tight on customs are the firing pin to FP hole fit.
EVERYBODY needs to cycle a custom single shot BR action once. With a couple drops of "bolt magic" oil it feels like rubbing two sticks of buttah together!!
OK....I've blabbered enuff!!!
Re: Bolt sleeving
<span style="font-style: italic">"They watch the flags, wait for a consistant condition, and blast 5 shots off as fast as they can load and get on target so that condition doesn't change. One fella at the range I went to shot his 5-shot groups in 12 seconds. This is the reason for me buying the Panda, it is a dual port. I set a box on the right to catch empties and feed it on the left."</span>
Hmmmm. Sounds like a reoccurring theme.
-equipment only gets you so far.
Magazine fed Bench guns? BLASPHEMY or good idea?
Great comments!
Chad
<span style="font-style: italic">"They watch the flags, wait for a consistant condition, and blast 5 shots off as fast as they can load and get on target so that condition doesn't change. One fella at the range I went to shot his 5-shot groups in 12 seconds. This is the reason for me buying the Panda, it is a dual port. I set a box on the right to catch empties and feed it on the left."</span>
Hmmmm. Sounds like a reoccurring theme.
-equipment only gets you so far.
Magazine fed Bench guns? BLASPHEMY or good idea?
Great comments!
Chad
Re: Bolt sleeving
"Magazine fed Bench guns? BLASPHEMY or good idea?"
Mags are against the rules, except in the old HUNTER BR class which is pretty much extinct now I think.
"Magazine fed Bench guns? BLASPHEMY or good idea?"
Mags are against the rules, except in the old HUNTER BR class which is pretty much extinct now I think.
Re: Bolt sleeving
Bolt sleeving?
Spending more money on that dog of a Rem 700 action you should have dumped off to begin with?
The reason all the Hall, Stolle, Hart, and other benchrest actions like Shilen came about was to supersede the make-do actions being used way-back-when with sleeves. Sleeving just adds more cost and gets you NOTHING back in the way of value for your rifle; as ugly as they are, likely makes value drop like a stone.
Making a purse out of a sow's ear can be done, but not for one helluva lot of money and time. Sell the action, buy a decent custom with reputation for precision performance and you will have something that will retain its value, plus shoot better right from the start.
I had my day in the sun with a full action job and custom smithed Sendero SF. Buy a Stiller or a Badger and don't look back; or even smarter, buy a Sako TRG or an Accuracy Intl and you have a platform for life.
Plenty of other stocks for the Sako now. Best action and trigger made for tactical or F-Class. Won't need a stinkin sleeve!
Bolt sleeving?
Spending more money on that dog of a Rem 700 action you should have dumped off to begin with?
The reason all the Hall, Stolle, Hart, and other benchrest actions like Shilen came about was to supersede the make-do actions being used way-back-when with sleeves. Sleeving just adds more cost and gets you NOTHING back in the way of value for your rifle; as ugly as they are, likely makes value drop like a stone.
Making a purse out of a sow's ear can be done, but not for one helluva lot of money and time. Sell the action, buy a decent custom with reputation for precision performance and you will have something that will retain its value, plus shoot better right from the start.
I had my day in the sun with a full action job and custom smithed Sendero SF. Buy a Stiller or a Badger and don't look back; or even smarter, buy a Sako TRG or an Accuracy Intl and you have a platform for life.
Plenty of other stocks for the Sako now. Best action and trigger made for tactical or F-Class. Won't need a stinkin sleeve!
Re: Bolt sleeving
Hunter Class BR is very much alive and well. It is a real challenge to compete with a 10Lb. rifle and a 6X scope.
Hunter Class BR is very much alive and well. It is a real challenge to compete with a 10Lb. rifle and a 6X scope.
Re: Bolt sleeving
Well,
I'm going to chime in and agree with Mark at SAC that the sleeves makes a differance. I sleeve bolts, I keep them tight and I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it made a differance. They are a lot of work and more work than they are worth in the time and effort invested in doing it right. But when you true a Remington right (single point on a lathe which includes chasing and recutting the threads) then tighten the bolt with sleeves you have an action that can and will run with any custom action out there.
I do have to add that sleeves are not for everybody. They can get sticky in a tactical match where there is a lot of dust and dirt. Also, I am retired law enforcemnt, if I was doing this solely for a living I might think differently becouse it is exceptionally time consuming - on average until I make the sleeves, split them, machine the bolt, attach them, let then cure over night, machine the sleeves, machine the rest of the bolt then hand fit to the action and polish the sleeves out. It can easily take more than a full day. But it truly is a work of art when you see the finished product.
I think the new bolts from PTG and going to be nice and accomplish the same as sleeving by keeping the bolt body true and tight - but with sleeves the bolt can be made to run a little better than they used to in the past becouse you can file and polish down the non locking sides of the sleeves to make them a litle looser to run smoother.
I'm pretty exited about the Defiance actions for some high end builds, they really are built tight and right. But if you own a Remington and trust your smith, they can and will run. As far as re-sale value, if it shoots little bug holes it will sell.
Good luck,
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories
Well,
I'm going to chime in and agree with Mark at SAC that the sleeves makes a differance. I sleeve bolts, I keep them tight and I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it made a differance. They are a lot of work and more work than they are worth in the time and effort invested in doing it right. But when you true a Remington right (single point on a lathe which includes chasing and recutting the threads) then tighten the bolt with sleeves you have an action that can and will run with any custom action out there.
I do have to add that sleeves are not for everybody. They can get sticky in a tactical match where there is a lot of dust and dirt. Also, I am retired law enforcemnt, if I was doing this solely for a living I might think differently becouse it is exceptionally time consuming - on average until I make the sleeves, split them, machine the bolt, attach them, let then cure over night, machine the sleeves, machine the rest of the bolt then hand fit to the action and polish the sleeves out. It can easily take more than a full day. But it truly is a work of art when you see the finished product.
I think the new bolts from PTG and going to be nice and accomplish the same as sleeving by keeping the bolt body true and tight - but with sleeves the bolt can be made to run a little better than they used to in the past becouse you can file and polish down the non locking sides of the sleeves to make them a litle looser to run smoother.
I'm pretty exited about the Defiance actions for some high end builds, they really are built tight and right. But if you own a Remington and trust your smith, they can and will run. As far as re-sale value, if it shoots little bug holes it will sell.
Good luck,
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories
Re: Bolt sleeving
It is not the action that delivers the "bug holes"...
Contributes maybe, but not that much in the total equation.
Shooting a .308win? Then maybe a used rifle holds its value because of barrel-life. Selling a 6.5x284 or anything larger than a SAUM in the magnum family and barrel will have already manifested issues at 600 or fewer rounds fired.
Barrel is the critical component. Ammunition equally weighted, yet components are always "new", except for cases. Cases often replaced very regularly; unless you are firing moderate loads, and most here won't be...
Have fired sub .38" 5rd groups at 100 and sub.64" 5rd groups at 200 with plain-jane, cobbled together Rem 700. Badger Ord mount system and Leupold 6x Mk4 target dot scope contributed much to the precision. Action was very early 60s with a used takeoff .308 PSS barrel installed. Early actions were notable in their issues...
Groups were measured with mitutoyo dial caliper and bullet diameter was not deducted. Was also using REMINGTON Brass... Horror of Horrors!
The ticket to the accuracy achieved was OAL cartridge chamber dimension. Go Gauge plus .0005" or thereabouts. Minimal brass stretching.
Action was old, factory, never modified. Trigger set to 1.75# by Pablito's snipercountry instructions.
Rem 700 action is worth $400 these days for bolt and Receiver. Gonna spend another $500 or more to "make it work"?
What needs to "work" is your chamber OAL and bullet seating depth; plus maybe you play with the action torquing trying 40 inch pounds and 45ip rear/front first... Maybe try a ground and true recoil lug before you touch your action. Might need to set forward your barrel anyway. Not too likely your receiver shoulder is out of square, but with barrel off, can check it easily enough and remedy. Then all your barrel alignment influencing components are uniformed.
Shoot at one corner of an aiming square to align ver & horz reticle on the 90deg angle of the aiming square.
If you use or assemble match ammunition, your results should be consistent. Seating depth is first variable for handloaders. If shooting magnum or 6.5x284 type ctg, be mindful that all your "research" is going to reduce your barrel life by that many rounds. With a .308win, have at it!
No need to true, tweak, or sleeve any receiver component until the above prove such is necessary. Unless you are a "name" in the shooting sport, a highly modified action or much fired barreled action won't bring much money on resale.
Bolt lockup, even bearing surface fit with lugs and receiver lug recesses is what matters not a no-wobble bolt movement feel. Firing pin hole tightness and boltface uniformity do matter, but only if substantially out of spec and far from true. Variation is common and does not materially result in absence of precision unless present in gross exaggeration.
It is not the action that delivers the "bug holes"...
Contributes maybe, but not that much in the total equation.
Shooting a .308win? Then maybe a used rifle holds its value because of barrel-life. Selling a 6.5x284 or anything larger than a SAUM in the magnum family and barrel will have already manifested issues at 600 or fewer rounds fired.
Barrel is the critical component. Ammunition equally weighted, yet components are always "new", except for cases. Cases often replaced very regularly; unless you are firing moderate loads, and most here won't be...
Have fired sub .38" 5rd groups at 100 and sub.64" 5rd groups at 200 with plain-jane, cobbled together Rem 700. Badger Ord mount system and Leupold 6x Mk4 target dot scope contributed much to the precision. Action was very early 60s with a used takeoff .308 PSS barrel installed. Early actions were notable in their issues...
Groups were measured with mitutoyo dial caliper and bullet diameter was not deducted. Was also using REMINGTON Brass... Horror of Horrors!
The ticket to the accuracy achieved was OAL cartridge chamber dimension. Go Gauge plus .0005" or thereabouts. Minimal brass stretching.
Action was old, factory, never modified. Trigger set to 1.75# by Pablito's snipercountry instructions.
Rem 700 action is worth $400 these days for bolt and Receiver. Gonna spend another $500 or more to "make it work"?
What needs to "work" is your chamber OAL and bullet seating depth; plus maybe you play with the action torquing trying 40 inch pounds and 45ip rear/front first... Maybe try a ground and true recoil lug before you touch your action. Might need to set forward your barrel anyway. Not too likely your receiver shoulder is out of square, but with barrel off, can check it easily enough and remedy. Then all your barrel alignment influencing components are uniformed.
Shoot at one corner of an aiming square to align ver & horz reticle on the 90deg angle of the aiming square.
If you use or assemble match ammunition, your results should be consistent. Seating depth is first variable for handloaders. If shooting magnum or 6.5x284 type ctg, be mindful that all your "research" is going to reduce your barrel life by that many rounds. With a .308win, have at it!
No need to true, tweak, or sleeve any receiver component until the above prove such is necessary. Unless you are a "name" in the shooting sport, a highly modified action or much fired barreled action won't bring much money on resale.
Bolt lockup, even bearing surface fit with lugs and receiver lug recesses is what matters not a no-wobble bolt movement feel. Firing pin hole tightness and boltface uniformity do matter, but only if substantially out of spec and far from true. Variation is common and does not materially result in absence of precision unless present in gross exaggeration.
Re: Bolt sleeving
Instead of saying "if it shoots little bugholes it will sell" I should have said if it shoots little bugholes who would sell it. No one builds a rifle to retail it later in life. I'm not dissagreeing with some of your points, those things mean a lot. But a true "Trued Action" is a lot different than the quick fix everything has a jig job.
The point is, unless you have owned a sleeved Remington (most have never seen one) you should not be so quick to judge and just throw it out the window as vodoo/hogwash. I've been to many shows were 99.9% of the people heard of sleeves but really never seen them. I've shot in many shoots and to date ran against one other competitor that was running a sleeved Reimington. Take a look on the board and look how many custom action rifles are for sale. There are no sleeved Remingtons, the market is not flooded with used one's that were a waste of time and money.
I'm not trying to create a pissing match with you, again you have valid points. I am trying to speak my honost working opinion that if you own a Remington, truing and sleeving makes it a damn good platform to build from. An aftermarket PTG bolt fitted to a properly trued action is another viable option that will yield similer results. If you do not already own a Remington, than a custom action is no doubt a good way to go but it's not your only option.
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories
Instead of saying "if it shoots little bugholes it will sell" I should have said if it shoots little bugholes who would sell it. No one builds a rifle to retail it later in life. I'm not dissagreeing with some of your points, those things mean a lot. But a true "Trued Action" is a lot different than the quick fix everything has a jig job.
The point is, unless you have owned a sleeved Remington (most have never seen one) you should not be so quick to judge and just throw it out the window as vodoo/hogwash. I've been to many shows were 99.9% of the people heard of sleeves but really never seen them. I've shot in many shoots and to date ran against one other competitor that was running a sleeved Reimington. Take a look on the board and look how many custom action rifles are for sale. There are no sleeved Remingtons, the market is not flooded with used one's that were a waste of time and money.
I'm not trying to create a pissing match with you, again you have valid points. I am trying to speak my honost working opinion that if you own a Remington, truing and sleeving makes it a damn good platform to build from. An aftermarket PTG bolt fitted to a properly trued action is another viable option that will yield similer results. If you do not already own a Remington, than a custom action is no doubt a good way to go but it's not your only option.
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories
Re: Bolt sleeving
This is an interesting thread, fun to read, good to learn from. Good information for all of us.
This is an interesting thread, fun to read, good to learn from. Good information for all of us.
Similar threads
Gunsmithing Savage bolt hard to close on round
