Brass Sticks in Chamber With Low Pressure Loads - Help Please

[TheNatural21]

I have some Hirtenberger milsurp brass from 1982 that is giving me some troubles. After firing it sticks in the chamber, even after full length sizing and low pressure loads. I'm wondering if anyone has a solution before I give up on it... Which would be a shame because I have lots.

I bought it as milsurp loaded ammo. Similar to M80 although not quite to the same spec. Fired in bolt gun. Neck sized. Loaded with pretty conservative loads and some of it was quite sticky. Primers not flattened even a little, no other over pressure signs, just sticks in the chamber.

So I backed off on the powder charge. 40.0 grains of D4895 (basically IMR4895) getting ~2400fps out of an 18" barrel bolt action with a 155 grain Hornady BTHP. Still fairly sticky.

So I FL sized and loaded with the same mild load. A little better, but I can still definitely feel the effort I need to put into it when the bolt hits the primary extraction ramp. Bolt lift is fine until it hits primary extraction, but it takes a gorilla to break the case loose from the chamber.

All brass tested had 1 or 2 firings on it. I have no problems with much more potent loads in the same rifle with other headstamps. I tried a second bolt gun and had the same exact experience.

I previously used some of this brass in a semi with mild loads and the rims were often pretty beat up, showing indents from the extractor. At the time I thought it was getting dinged up because it was too soft, but now I'm suspecting it was sticking in the semi chamber too.

The only thing I have thought of that I haven't tried is annealing. Maybe the age of the brass has hardened it and that is causing my issues? I'm not set up to anneal just yet but I do plan on it in the near future.

 

[Bullspotter]

May want to do an internal volume check, and compare to other HS brass. Im assuming a 308?

 

[KZP]

You mentioned FL sizing was slightly better. Do you have a small base die you can try?

 

[TheNatural21]

May want to do an internal volume check, and compare to other HS brass. Im assuming a 308?

Yes, 308 rifle & 7.62x51 brass sized in 308 Win dies.

I quickly compared volume to Lapua brass. The Hirtenberger has a larger internal volume. I just did a quick comparison with how much fine ball powder they hold filled right to the top, so I don't have a grains of H20 number.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I'm assuming the old brass was fired out of another chamber.

This is likely because the other chamber was slightly larger, and your current die isn't quite sizing down enough - just enough to fit the chamber, but when it's fired, it doesn't come back at all and you get the stickiness. @KZP said it - get a small base die to size it down more.

 

[spife7980]

Ditch the crap brass, you can see for yourself it’s not worth it. Measure it.

 

[TheNatural21]

I'm assuming the old brass was fired out of another chamber.

This is likely because the other chamber was slightly larger, and your current die isn't quite sizing down enough - just enough to fit the chamber, but when it's fired, it doesn't come back at all and you get the stickiness. @KZP said it - get a small base die to size it down more.

I wish it was that simple. I haven't tried a small base die because I don't own one, but I fired the original factory load in the same rifle I'm reloading for.

I went back and weighed the water capacity of a few 308 Win cartridges I had on hand. The Lapua and Hirt are after firing in the same rifle, but the FC and IVI'17 are fired in a different rifle so they aren't directly comparable, although it's also a bolt gun with a fairly tight chamber so they shouldn't be too different. Sample size is just 1 case of each.
Lapua - 53.1 grains H20
Hirtenberger '82 - 54.4 grains H20
F.C. - 54.3 grains H20
IVI'17 - 52.2 grains H20

So the Hirtenberger is more in line with the capacity of commercial 308 Win than the military brass. The GordonsReloadingTool software suggests I should only be at 40,800 psi with the 40.0 grains of D4895 load. The muzzle velocity prediction is within 30fps of my observed chronograph data, so it seems about right to me.

 

[Namekagon]

Once I had a load get sticky on me that was a known good load. I had shot around 700 rounds of it in that barrel with great accuracy and no problems. By sticky, I mean significant resistance to bolt lift and ejector swipes, not the stuck case situation you describe.

I backed off on the charge, thinking I had run into an exceptionally hot lot of powder, but that did not help, even with a very conservative load. I spent several shooting and reloading sessions trying to figure out why my go-to load was suddenly showing so many over-pressure signs.

At someone else's suggestion I gave the barrel a heavy cleaning, much more so than I usually had done, focusing alot on the area where a carbon ring might have formed. I had always cleaned my rifle around every 100 rounds, so I didn't expect that to be a problem. But I apparently hadn't been cleaning aggressively enough. The deep clean solved the problem. I would recommend giving your rifle barrel a serious cleaning, just to eliminate that from possible causes.

 

[nutation]

@spife7980 is right - measure the web-to-base region and compare it with known good fired brass from the same rifle before you drop $50 on another die.

 

[TheNatural21]

@spife7980 is right - measure the web-to-base region and compare it with known good fired brass from the same rifle before you drop $50 on another die.

This might be a stupid question, but where exactly should I take measurements? OD of the case at the location of the web (just above extraction groove) to check for case head expansion?

Or a little further up the case, in the area a Google search result called the "expansion ring"?

 

[spife7980]

This might be a stupid question, but where exactly should I take measurements? OD of the case at the location of the web (just above extraction groove) to check for case head expansion?

Or a little further up the case, in the area a Google search result called the "expansion ring"?

Everywhere

Edit: Its my old fired cases and then the output of the sizing die, I only really have control of the shoulder location, I cant change the sizing die diameters. So the "To" fit is for the shoulder location only really. (BUT I am documenting what is happening to the brass.)
With a stripped bolt sizing the three shoulders are where I could close it with heavy effort, 75% was where I could notice it but it didnt really impede function, free was bolt had no resistance.

You would want to measure what it went into the chamber with, what it came out of the chamber with, what its sized down as.

 

[TheNatural21]

Once I had a load get sticky on me that was a known good load. I had shot around 700 rounds of it in that barrel with great accuracy and no problems. By sticky, I mean significant resistance to bolt lift and ejector swipes, not the stuck case situation you describe.

I backed off on the charge, thinking I had run into an exceptionally hot lot of powder, but that did not help, even with a very conservative load. I spent several shooting and reloading sessions trying to figure out why my go-to load was suddenly showing so many over-pressure signs.

At someone else's suggestion I gave the barrel a heavy cleaning, much more so than I usually had done, focusing alot on the area where a carbon ring might have formed. I had always cleaned my rifle around every 100 rounds, so I didn't expect that to be a problem. But I apparently hadn't been cleaning aggressively enough. The deep clean solved the problem. I would recommend giving your rifle barrel a serious cleaning, just to eliminate that from possible causes.

That seemed like a real possibility. Until I put a brand new, clean barrel on the rifle last week and had the same problem. Thanks for the idea though

Every whereView attachment 7601151

I'll spend some time measuring cases tonight. The only tool I have for the job is blade calipers that only have a 0.0005" resolution, but hopefully that's enough precision to see any glaring differences between headstamps.

 

[918v]

Measure your loaded case with a bullet in the neck. Measure the neck close to the shoulder and close to the case mouth.

If this is the same brass I dissected, I think this brass comes with a doughnut inside the neck right from the factory. The base of the bullet sits on top of the doughnut which prevents setback during feeding.

If you seat a longer bullet through that doughnut it will push it out to the outside of the neck. Then you’ll have a constriction which will spike pressure and cause your cases to stick. They are real soft.

 

[TheNatural21]

Everywhere

Edit: Its my old fired cases and then the output of the sizing die, I only really have control of the shoulder location, I cant change the sizing die diameters. So the "To" fit is for the shoulder location only really. (BUT I am documenting what is happening to the brass.)
With a stripped bolt sizing the three shoulders are where I could close it with heavy effort, 75% was where I could notice it but it didnt really impede function, free was bolt had no resistance.
View attachment 7601151

You would want to measure what it went into the chamber with, what it came out of the chamber with, what its sized down as.

I measured the different stages I have on hand. All measurements are average of 5 cases measured with blade calipers to nearest 0.0005". ES for every measurement was 0.001" or less, except the OD of the necks which had a slightly larger ES (some necks were slightly oval - probably stepped on or something). The Lapua works great in this rifle so it's there for comparison.

"Case Near Web" is the body near the base of the case, around where a case head separation would occur. It actually looks like it might be my culprit - the only dimension that is bigger than the Lapua brass.

It does look like the case heads are getting a bit wider at the web over a few firings, but they're still much below the 0.4709" SAAMI spec and also below the known good Lapua.

I didn't bother measuring the headspace dimension. I check that regularly when sizing the brass using a Hornady headspace comparator to ensure I'm not setting the shoulder back too far, and I'm pretty darn sure that's not an issue for me here.

 

[spife7980]

I’d say you found the culprit

 

[TheNatural21]

I’d say you found the culprit

So... I suppose the solution is a small base FL sizing die? (Like somebody suggested at the very beginning of this thread and I shrugged off like an idiot)

 

[KZP]

If you are interested in trying, I've got a Redding 308 body only small base die I don't need anymore that I can give a discount on. It does not resize the neck. Used it for my AR-10 brass, but now my shooting volume is high enough I went to a bushing full small base die.

It's this one.

Redding Small Base Body Die 308 Winchester

Redding Small Base Body Dies were designed to full length resize the case body and bump the shoulder without disturbing the case neck. The Small Base...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[TheNatural21]

If you are interested in trying, I've got a Redding 308 body only small base die I don't need anymore that I can give a discount on. It does not resize the neck. Used it for my AR-10 brass, but now my shooting volume is high enough I went to a bushing full small base die.

It's this one.

Redding Small Base Body Die 308 Winchester

Redding Small Base Body Dies were designed to full length resize the case body and bump the shoulder without disturbing the case neck. The Small Base...

www.midwayusa.com

That would probably be great for me, but I'm in Canada which might make things tough. I know the US has laws about exporting anything firearms related, but no idea if that includes a reloading die.

 

[TheNatural21]

I did some more measuring this morning. My Redding body die (not the small base version) sizes the base of once fired Hirtenberger brass down to 0.468". That's around 0.002" tighter than the Lee FL sizing die I was using. I previously assumed they'd both size the base about the same - lesson learned. I'll try loading a few that I sized in the Redding body die - it might be enough of a difference that I don't have to go to a small base die at all.

 

[FLIGHT762]

I had a very tight chambered SSG 69. Cases any larger than .469" at the case web would not chamber, regardless of shoulder bump, the hang up was at the web. A Redding S/B Body Die was able to size the web to .468" and solved my issue. My RCBS S/B die wouldn't do it.

Run the cases a couple of times, slowly in / out of the body die.

That may fix your issue without having to go to a S/B Body die.

 

[Yondering]

I did some more measuring this morning. My Redding body die (not the small base version) sizes the base of once fired Hirtenberger brass down to 0.468". That's around 0.002" tighter than the Lee FL sizing die I was using. I previously assumed they'd both size the base about the same - lesson learned. I'll try loading a few that I sized in the Redding body die - it might be enough of a difference that I don't have to go to a small base die at all.

So far all your complaints about sticking brass have been after firing. Are you saying now that the brass sticks in the chamber before it's fired?

If you can chamber and extract a live unfired round easily, it's not a sizing problem, and a small base die won't fix anything for you.

If you can't extract a live round easily, then it's a sizing problem and has nothing to do with the powder charge. Which is it?


This is a weird thread, with a lot of people talking crossways to each other and you as the OP generally giving poor details so everyone is thinking different things. You gotta be a lot more precise with the details and explaining exactly what's wrong if you want to get good help. Of course even then 75% of the replies will be from people who didn't bother to read it all and just wanted to say something anyway, but the few people trying to give good info can't do it if you don't provide good accurate details.

 

[TheNatural21]

So far all your complaints about sticking brass have been after firing. Are you saying now that the brass sticks in the chamber before it's fired?

If you can chamber and extract a live unfired round easily, it's not a sizing problem, and a small base die won't fix anything for you.

If you can't extract a live round easily, then it's a sizing problem and has nothing to do with the powder charge. Which is it?


This is a weird thread, with a lot of people talking crossways to each other and you as the OP generally giving poor details so everyone is thinking different things. You gotta be a lot more precise with the details and explaining exactly what's wrong if you want to get good help. Of course even then 75% of the replies will be from people who didn't bother to read it all and just wanted to say something anyway, but the few people trying to give good info can't do it if you don't provide good accurate details.

Point taken, but I'm not sure what other details are helpful.

The issue is still extracting a fired case.

The current train of thought is that the case is sized enough to fit in the chamber, but just barely sized enough to fit at the base. Not sized enough to allow for the normal amount of brass spring back, even with a mild load.

I'm certainly not an expert (which is why I'm here asking for help), but I'm imagining a similar issue to only neck sizing for several firings until bolt lift gets tough. People that neck size often bump the shoulder back every couple/few firings. My problem isn't with the shoulder, but it seems like my FL die might not be sizing the base enough. My measurements show that it isn't really sizing the base at all and that part of the case keeps getting a little bigger every firing until it is a really tight fit (even though I used a FL sizing die and assumed it would size the base enough - until I actually measured). My logic is that sizing the base back to original dimensions will allow more space for spring back and easier extraction.

Feel free to ask for any details that you would like, or point out flaws in my thinking.

 

[spife7980]

Point taken, but I'm not sure what other details are helpful.

The issue is still extracting a fired case.

The current train of thought is that the case is sized enough to fit in the chamber, but just barely sized enough to fit at the base. Not sized enough to allow for the normal amount of brass spring back, even with a mild load.

I'm certainly not an expert (which is why I'm here asking for help), but I'm imagining a similar issue to only neck sizing for several firings until bolt lift gets tough. People that neck size often bump the shoulder back every couple/few firings. My problem isn't with the shoulder, but it seems like my FL die might not be sizing the base enough. My measurements show that it isn't really sizing the base at all and that part of the case keeps getting a little bigger every firing until it is a really tight fit (even though I used a FL sizing die and assumed it would size the base enough - until I actually measured). My logic is that sizing the base back to original dimensions will allow more space for spring back and easier extraction.

Feel free to ask for any details that you would like, or point out flaws in my thinking.

I’m thinking the same things you are based on the evidence presented.
And it could just be an issue with that brass’s metulurgy, it may never size and spring back like you want it to if your chamber and die are too close to each other.
You say the lapua is working fine: I’d run that and toss this troublesome brass.

 

[TheNatural21]

I’m thinking the same things you are based on the evidence presented.
And it could just be an issue with that brass’s metulurgy, it may never size and spring back like you want it to if your chamber and die are too close to each other.
You say the lapua is working fine: I’d run that and toss this troublesome brass.

If sizing the base a little smaller doesn't work out I'll end up tossing it. The Lapua is great most of the time but I was hoping to get a decently accurate low cost load out of the Hirtenberger to 1) stockpile a bunch just in case and 2) for times I don't get my brass back.

 

[Yondering]

Point taken, but I'm not sure what other details are helpful.

The issue is still extracting a fired case.

The current train of thought is that the case is sized enough to fit in the chamber, but just barely sized enough to fit at the base. Not sized enough to allow for the normal amount of brass spring back, even with a mild load.

I'm certainly not an expert (which is why I'm here asking for help), but I'm imagining a similar issue to only neck sizing for several firings until bolt lift gets tough. People that neck size often bump the shoulder back every couple/few firings. My problem isn't with the shoulder, but it seems like my FL die might not be sizing the base enough. My measurements show that it isn't really sizing the base at all and that part of the case keeps getting a little bigger every firing until it is a really tight fit (even though I used a FL sizing die and assumed it would size the base enough - until I actually measured). My logic is that sizing the base back to original dimensions will allow more space for spring back and easier extraction.

Feel free to ask for any details that you would like, or point out flaws in my thinking.

OK I understand what you're saying with the neck sizing analogy, but that's a different situation. With the neck sizing, after a few times the brass starts to go into the chamber hard, so the bolt gets a little tight to close. Yours isn't doing that; it's chambering easily, right?

Also, spring back doesn't work quite the way you're thinking; the brass springs back a certain amount from the maximum dimension limited by the chamber, not some amount based on the initial size. It doesn't matter if the brass is a close fit or a loose fit in the chamber, it'll still spring back a small amount from the chamber's maximum dimension under pressure. The fired brass dimensions depend on the chamber, pressure, and brass hardness, but almost not at all on initial sized dimensions. (this is why fireforming works to radically change a case shape) It will spring back less with each firing until it's annealed and sized back, which is what happens in the neck sizing example.

I don't think your issue has anything to do with sizing; a small base die will not fix your problem, that's chasing the wrong solution and is a waste of money if your rounds currently chamber freely.

You might have a slightly rough chamber though. Does this fired brass show any faint rings or lines in it, particularly near the case head? If it's a factory barrel (one of the details that might help) you may have a slightly rough chamber that tends to stick with certain brands of softer brass. I had this happen with several different Ruger American rifles using CBC (Magtech) brass; honing and polishing the chamber fixed that issue and may fix yours too.

 

[Yondering]

Can you post a good quality close-up pic of the Hirtenberger brass fired in your chamber? That would help a bunch.

It may just be softer brass (like the CBC I mentioned above) that doesn't play well with rougher chambers, even if the same chamber works fine with other brass like Lapua and LC.

 

[spife7980]

It will spring back less with each firing until it's annealed and sized back, which is what happens in the neck sizing example.

It will spring back more the harder it gets. Annealing relieves the stresses and reduces the spring back.

 

[918v]

It will spring back more the harder it gets. Annealing relieves the stresses and reduces the spring back.

+1

The harder the brass the more it springs back.

 

[918v]

OP:

Can you measure the neck of your reloaded round not of a factory round?

 

[TheNatural21]

You might have a slightly rough chamber though. Does this fired brass show any faint rings or lines in it, particularly near the case head? If it's a factory barrel (one of the details that might help) you may have a slightly rough chamber that tends to stick with certain brands of softer brass. I had this happen with several different Ruger American rifles using CBC (Magtech) brass; honing and polishing the chamber fixed that issue and may fix yours too.

It was a Savage 110 Tactical factory barrel for the majority of my sticky cases. A little over a week ago I put an IBI carbon fiber pre-fit on it and it continued to be a bit sticky. With the new barrel I fired 25 rounds with the FL sized brass and mild load. None got fully stuck in the chamber, but a few required a whole lot of effort during primary extraction. The chamber of the new barrel looks very well finished, but the take off is not well polished. It's very hard to capture on camera, but this is a once fired case from the Savage barrel that shows lots of tiny scratches in that part of the case just above the case head. This is just after firing the factory load.

I know Savage's have a reputation for poor primary extraction, but it has been corrected on this action.

OP:

Can you measure the neck of your reloaded round not of a factory round?

Measurements from a twice fired & loaded, ready to fire, cartridge:
Neck near the mouth - 0.333"
Neck near the shoulder - 0.334"

The neck near the neck-shoulder junction isn't very straight so it's tough to get a consistent measurement. There's a bit of a radius as it transitions from shoulder to neck, then it is a bit bigger where the base of the bullet would be seated. The bullets are not seated far enough for the base to be on any sort of donut; it would be a narrower part of the boat tail that's in the typical donut spot. I'm using a short-ish 155 grain Hornady BTHP Match seated to 2.800"

 

[918v]

Ok it can’t be that then.

How close to the lands are you at 2.800” ?

 

[Yondering]

It will spring back more the harder it gets. Annealing relieves the stresses and reduces the spring back.

You are generally correct, but context is important and I've realized that I did a poor job of explaining that detail.

If you're full length sizing, then yes, the brass springs back more as it gets harder, returning closer to original sized dimensions. (This is probably why the Lapua brass works fine in his chamber, being a little harder and springing back enough to extract easily.)

However when neck sizing only, the brass in the body has very little room to grow but does permanently move a little with each firing, leaving less room for spring back with each firing. That's why brass eventually has to be full length sized, because it grows enough to be hard to chamber. This isn't caused by brass hardening, but does happen at the same time, and I worded my initial statement poorly.

 

[Yondering]

It was a Savage 110 Tactical factory barrel for the majority of my sticky cases. A little over a week ago I put an IBI carbon fiber pre-fit on it and it continued to be a bit sticky. With the new barrel I fired 25 rounds with the FL sized brass and mild load. None got fully stuck in the chamber, but a few required a whole lot of effort during primary extraction. The chamber of the new barrel looks very well finished, but the take off is not well polished. It's very hard to capture on camera, but this is a once fired case from the Savage barrel that shows lots of tiny scratches in that part of the case just above the case head. This is just after firing the factory load.
View attachment 7602326

I know Savage's have a reputation for poor primary extraction, but it has been corrected on this action.

Measurements from a twice fired & loaded, ready to fire, cartridge:
Neck near the mouth - 0.333"
Neck near the shoulder - 0.334"

The neck near the neck-shoulder junction isn't very straight so it's tough to get a consistent measurement. There's a bit of a radius as it transitions from shoulder to neck, then it is a bit bigger where the base of the bullet would be seated. The bullets are not seated far enough for the base to be on any sort of donut; it would be a narrower part of the boat tail that's in the typical donut spot. I'm using a short-ish 155 grain Hornady BTHP Match seated to 2.800"

That picture looks typical to me of a somewhat rough factory chamber that will be prone to hard extraction with some brass. The Ruger Americans I mentioned above resulted in brass that looked just like that too. Polishing the chamber was the solution.

It seems pretty clear that you're dealing with soft brass in a rough chamber, with the typical result. I don't see any indications of high pressure, sizing issues, or anything else from your comments. IMO if you have a competent smith polish that chamber it'll fix the problem. Small base sizing will not.

 

[TheNatural21]

Thanks for the help everyone! I just got back from the range and the problem is "fixed".

-a Redding body die sized the base a little more than the Lee FL sizing die I was using. I think this helped a lot.
-certainly the brass is soft and previous chamber was rough, which explains why things were a little better in the new barrel

I was able to increase my powder charge and thus pressure a little bit, software estimates to 45,000 psi, without any problems. I didn't try anything higher than that today.

At worst I now have some brass I can use for cheap plinking loads. At best I'll be able to up the pressure a bit more and use the brass as normal.

If what you guys are saying about harder brass springing back more is correct, then maybe it'll get better after I fire and size it a couple more times.

 

[918v]

It is correct but, no, in your case it will not improve the situation. Brass hardens due to work hardening. We know this because we all have seen necks crack after a dozen reloads if we don’t anneal. But the reason the neck cracks after a dozen reloads is because the brass was moved a lot: it expands .008-.010” to seal the chamber then is sized down .010-.015” by a FL die, then expanded .007” by a mandrel to set neck tension. And it takes many of these cycles to harden the neck.

In your case the case body expands what? .003”? And then is sized .002”? You will lose these cases due to primer pocket failing long before any part of the case hardens appreciably.