F T/R Competition Build my F-T/R rifle & Loading System

[bluto77]

I'm getting into F-T/R, and I want to get a dedicated rifle built. I've had other customs built before, but never a dedicated F-Class rifle. I've been asking around and talking to some of the shooters at the matches on Sundays for their input. I understand that weight is a big factor in equipment decision. I think I'd like to have my weight in the barrel and in the stock. Here's what I'm thinking on the system. Please critique.

Bullets: I plan on shooting the 185 gr Juggernauts 300/600/1000, but I wouldn't mind having a 1000 yard load with something in the 200 - 210 variety. I'm wondering if I would be better off with the same bullet/load for all ranges though, and just getting as efficient as possible with it. What is the optimal/target velocity for the 185 gr Juggernaut?

Barrel: I would to go only fast enough on the twist to stabilize the bullet in an effort to minimize pressure. I'm thinking 12 twist on 30" - 32". It's my understanding I would need to jump from 12 twist to 10 twist if going above 185gr though, which may be a deciding factor in the decision to have only 1 load at 185. I like Kreiger, but I have a line on Broughton at a good price and it is available. Heavy Palma, 12 twist, 32" (cut down/flute if need to make weight).

Action: Kelbly's F-Class Panda because of their reputation and weight. I have looked at BAT as well, but looks like their wait time is at 1 year. What's the deal with the right bolt, left port? Why do guys do that? I have Stillers on other builds, and I know they have an aluminum F-Class action as well. Much better price. Thoughts?

Stock: Kelbly's KTS is what I'm leaning towards. Jim Kelbly recommended considering the 1M for F-T/R use if I think I may ever switch to Open. Not sure that I'll ever move to Open though. I typically run Manners T5A or AICS 1.5 with Viperskins, so I like the pistol grip type set up. I haven't seen a F-Class stock with a pistol grip though. Also been told to check into PT&G stocks.

Trigger: Huber Concepts. Love 'em!

Rings: American Rifle Company aluminum rings. Extremely light, and easy to mount. Also don't tend to leave ring marks.

Scope: March - currently running the 5-40 with FFP (although I know FFP isn't necessary). Thinking about switching to March 10-60, but I typically run Mil/Mil. MOA shouldn't be very hard to pick up on though.

Bipod: Currently have a Sinclair, but looking into the Joy Pod. Both are extremely light.

As I understand, the set-up described above essentially puts the majority of the weight in the stock and the barrel, which is where I want it. All comments and recommendations are welcome. Thanks!


Edit to Add:
What dies and any other loading components are recommended?

 

[gstaylorg]

Personally, I would suggest a cut-rifled barrel. I prefer Bartlein myself, but Krieger, Brux, Rock Creek and a couple other manufacturers all make very high quality cut-rifled barrels. You won't go wrong with any of them. For what you're wanting to do, 30" should be plenty and will save you a little bit of weight. There are plenty that go with 32" length, but the extra 2" don't buy you all that much velocity, so if weight is an issue, you can save some there. If you have Quickload, you can play around with barrel length to get an idea of what the difference between 30" and 32" will mean in terms of load specifics and performance.

As far as twist rate, 1:11" should be all you need for the bullets you listed. In terms of pressure, the type of rifling is more important than the twist rate. There is really no need to potentially understabilize any of your bullet choices by going with a less than optimal twist rate, as a slightly faster twist is not going to affect your velocity or pressure in any meaningful way.

The issue you'll need to think about is your chamber length, specifically the freebore. I'm shooting 185 Juggernauts at about 2770 fps out of a rifle with a 30" 11-twist barrel and a chamber with .085" fb. With that fb, there is enough room so that the boattail clears the neck shoulder junction. However, many are using .168" fb as the standard for the 185s. It gives you a little more space for powder and helps keep the pressure down for a given load/velocity. It is possible you could load 200s or 210s in a chamber with .168 fb, but they might be pretty deep in the case. Check the base to ogive length difference between the shortest and longest bullets you want to shoot to get some idea of the range you need to cover. The alternative would be to go with a longer fb, which then would not be optimal for the 185s. The person to talk to about this would be the smith you're planning on having do the work, or someone like Dave Kiff at PTG. They can likely give you the best information on what reamer specs would be the most flexible for the bullets you want to try.

Actions: all the ones you listed are outstanding, won't go wrong with any of them.

Stock: a very important choice. Make sure that whatever you choose does not have an angled toe on the buttstock if you intend to use a sled-/ski-type bipod like the Sinclair or Joypod with so-called "free-recoil" technique. Also check the weights very carefully before selecting, particularly if you go with as 32" barrel. Weight may well be an issue for your build.

Scope: unless you can find one that has .05 mil turrets, you're better off going with 0.125 MOA turrets for finer adjustment. As far as magnification, I personally don't ever go above 30-35X due to mirage and/or the danger of crossfiring on the wrong target. However, many people like to run the mag up as far as possible. You probably want to look through some other people's scopes if at all possible, just to get a feel for how much mag you like, type of reticle, and other features. I have several of the NF 12-42x56 NXS scopes with NP-2DD reticles on my LR F-TR rifles, and I've been very happy with them. I also have a couple with the 8-32x56 NXS scopes and NP-R1 reticles that I use for MR competitions. If I had to do it over again, I'd probably get the NP-R1 reticle in all of them because under certain light conditions, the aiming dot in the NP-2DD can sometimes be a little difficult for me to see clearly against the target aiming black.

Overall, I think you're going to be very happy with your build. Good luck!

 

[damoncali]

My opinions (everyone's got one):

I don't see any advantage to left port right bolt. You can't machine gun rounds like you can in benchrest because you have to wait for the targets. Plus, I don't like having my face on the side of the rifle that has the port. Just in case.

Actions don't matter at all - get what you like. All you need is a 1/2 MOA rifle, which you can get out of a Remington or a savage. Single shot, of course. (I have a Barnard I love, but it's heavy). Keep the trigger in mind as well, as it's tied to the action, obviously.

The barrel should be as heavy and long as your weight budget will allow, and should be enough twist to stabilize the heaviest bullets you think you might want some day (.308's last a long time - I'd get a fast enough twist to handle the 220's just to be safe). (Side note: I just picked up Litz's new book, and he makes a compelling argument that you *might* want to spin up to a 1.5 SG to get the last smidge of BC out of your bullets, but there is always a tradeoff - namely bigger groups and in extreme cases, bullet blowups. Good, if fairly advanced, read.)

Scopes also don't matter as much as some say. I like to shoot around 35-40x at 600 (but 32 would be enough). Mils or MOA do not matter at all because you are shooting known distance. .1 mil clicks are not a good idea - too coarse. 1/8 MOA is much better. Log books, if you're into that, will generally be marked with MOA grids, not mil grids, so keep that in mind. But at the end of the day, a $400 Weaver or Sightron is 95% as capable as a $4000 march when it comes to hitting the x ring. The Nightforce Competition is pretty much made for F class, as is the new Leupold that's getting some buzz. I've got the competition. It's great, but I wouldn't feel handicapped with a scope half as pricey. Rings don't matter at all so long as the scope doesn't move. Consider the base angle carefully as you select a scope.

The shape of the toe of the stock is important. Some are angled, some flat. I've seen some that are flat with a "hand hook" - that seems like a bad idea. I've seen people shoot very good scores with all sorts of techniques and positions. Unfortunately, you have to sort of try them to find how you want to shoot. For open, it's more clear - flat 3" fore end, flat toe. The bags are also important. You have to experiment there.

I don't have enough TR experience to comment intelligently on bipods.

 

[bluto77]

Thanks for the input. I'll look at the barrel selection again. I'm not completely sold on the virtues of cut-rifled, but I'm not looking to have that debate in this thread. I have always had good luck with Kreiger and Bartlien, so maybe I should just stick with them. Also had luck with Broughton. It may boil down to availability.

Sounds like I may be good to go even out to 1000 with the 185 Juggs and not need to change loads if I can get enough velocity. You said you're getting 2770. Is that high enough, or is the highest velocity node somewhere in the 2800'ish range? I've tried doing internet searches to find that out, and can't seem to find that exact information.

My March is .05 Mil, so the adjustments are fine enough. I would like to see 10 mil/rotation on the turret though. I'm a self-proclaimed magnification whore, so I run that sucker at 40 until the mirage is too much, and even then I've had luck so far with only having to back it off to around 35'ish to get rid of it.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[gstaylorg]

My 2770 fps load is 44.4 gr Varget, Lapua brass, Fed 210 primers, .020" off the lands, shooting out of a 30" Bartlein 5R MTU contour barrel. It is perhaps slightly on the warm side, but not extremely hot. I can push the Varget load in my rifles a little more (2800 fps or so), but brass life goes down quickly and there's really no need to do so. The high BC of the 185 will do much more for you at 1000 yd than a small (25-50 fps) increase in velocity. It's far more important to extract the best precision/accuracy possible out of your load than to get slightly more velocity, even if it means backing off on the charge weight to get into the center of the accuracy node. Depending on barrel length, anywhere from 2700 to 2750 fps with the 185 should be great out to 1000 yd. I shot a load with the Berger 175 Tactical bullet at around 2750 fps at 1000 yd for quite some time. I've also shot FGMM 175s, also at ~2750 fps, at 1000 yd on several occasions. When the wind came up, the low BC 175 SMK bullet made it much harder to keep in the center. The 175 Tactical bullet was definitely better (0.259 G7 BC vs 0.243 for the 175 SMK). The 185 is even much better still. Even at around 2650 fps, the 185 will remain supersonic at 1000 yd, so an accurate load with it somewhere in the 2750-ish range is just extra gravy.

I know several people that have gotten in the 2825 to 2850 fps range with 185 Juggernauts using PowerPro2000MR. On the other hand, at least one had blown primers with that load at the last 1000 yd match here when it was pretty warm out (90 degrees plus). I didn't have any problems with my load at all under those conditions. It's not certain what the actual cause of the blown primers was (i.e. that the load was too hot is only one possible explanation). However, I don't feel the need to push right to the limit just to gain a few extra fps velocity. Typically, that will only buy you at most 0.1-0.2 MOA less windage at 1000 yd with a full value 10 mph wind. I'm not even sure I'd ever be able to notice that small a difference. I'd much rather use a high BC bullet to do the work, and load for accuracy/precision with a forgiving powder charge window that won't put the brass out to pasture after 3-4 firings.

As far as the 200s/210s, they definitely have better BCs than the 185s and with the right chamber can be loaded very effectively. However, the drawback at that bullet weight is that the increased recoil becomes noticeable. Actually, it's not so much that recoil itself is that noticeable, but managing it properly becomes even more critical. If you can't do that, it will become noticeable on the target pretty quickly. Some have no trouble, others find it more difficult. The only way to really know is to load them and see how you do.

 

[Denys]

Just so you know, Krieger and Bartlein are cut-rifled barrels. Broughton is button-rifled.

 

[bluto77]

Right. I was just saying I didn't feel overly compelled to go with Krieger or Bartlien only because they're cut-rifled, and was willing to look at Broughton, even though it is button-rifled. However, it now looks like Broughton is not available, and I can't find a Krieger at 31" with 11tw in Heavy Palma. There is a Bartlien available in Heavy Palma, 31", 11.25 tw. I may end up with that one. Thoughts on MTU vs Heavy Palma?

I ended up going with the Kelbly F-Class Panda. Ordered it a little while ago. I think Bruno's Shooting Supply was going to ship it out today to my gunsmith if they could. I can scoop up the Bartlein at Bugholes, or I could go with the Krieger MTU from Bruno's.

Forgot to mention PR&T's F-Class stocks earlier. Also looking at them.

 

[gstaylorg]

I'd look real carefully at the weight of those barrels. Both the Heavy Palma and MTU are very heavy contours. Just be sure you can make weight with all the other components before sinking a lot of money into any one specific item.

 

[asbestosglove]

Why don't you talk to Ray at PR&T? He knows what action contour combos make weight with his stock and whatever stock hardware you want + various bi pods. Also builds championship rifles: Jim Crofts 2012 and Team USA F/TR Crofts and Phil Kelley.

 

[haroldwilson]

Why don't you talk to Ray at PR&T? He knows what action contour combos make weight with his stock and whatever stock hardware you want + various bi pods. Also builds championship rifles: Jim Crofts 2012 and Team USA F/TR Crofts and Phil Kelley.

+1.

Take that action and send it to Ray at PR&T. He can do the stock, barrel, trigger and all that stuff in one place, and it is beyond beautiful.

 

[bluto77]

Ray is my first call tomorrow. Thanks guys.

 

[Down South]

I can attest to Ray's work and definately recommend him as a builder. He built my current FTR gun with his stock and it is very nice, i highly recommend getting the adjustable cheek and butt plate with the stock. I used a 30 inch heavy palma barrel (Brux), Stolle Panda F class action, jewel trigger, NF NXS scope, and Phoenix bipod (heavy as a boat anchor) and final weight of the gun with bipod was 18 lb. 1 oz.

I have since switched scopes (NF 2014 Comp scope) and a Flex bipod (much lighter than the Phoenix) and now im about 1.5 lb. under weight. So, with that being said, my next barrel will be a HEAVY contour as i have weight to play with. Bipods vary a lot weight wise, if you can find a lighter bipod that you like, its a plus in my opinion as it affords you a heavier contour or longer barrel.

 

[Denys]

Ray is my first call tomorrow. Thanks guys.

Ray does a good job, I'm sure. There are local gunsmiths in your area who would do a great job also if he's too booked up. BTW, I do have Ray's stock and have been using it for over 2 years now. It's great.

 

[bluto77]

I spoke with Ray today. I'll be getting one of their stocks for the rifle. He's definitely a knowledgeable guy.

I've been looking around on accurateshooter.com, and I saw Denys over there too. I Came across your Gun Digest article on F-Class and saw the pictures of your rifle. Really nice.

 

[Denys]

Thanks. It was a fun article to write and Gun Digest did a good job with the layout. The rifle is a Panda F Class with a Krieger in the PR&T stock, one of the very first ones from them and a Nightforce NXS12-42X56. The rifle was assembled by a local gunsmith back in 2012. I already have new barrels on order for it; they are due in around October.

 

[bluto77]

Denys, is your stock the regular wood laminate or the upgraded walnut? I just ordered the black/black, but I like the way some of the laminate wood stocks look too.

 

[Denys]

Mine is laminate. I don't remember there being an upgrade at the time I got mine and I probably would not have selected it. I like laminate for its consistency.

 

[bluto77]

Looking for input on reloading system as well. I currently use a single stage RCBS, Lee Collet die, Lee F/L die, Lee seating die, RCBS handheld priming tool, Giraud trimmer for brass, RCBS Chargemaster, Lee case prep center, Hornady OAL gauge, Hornady LNL bushing, Mitutoyo caliper. I'm planning on turning the necks, but I'm not having the chamber set up so tight that only neck turned brass fits. The neck turning is going to be more along the lines of getting out the high spots. I'm open to suggestions on that though. I'll be using Lapua brass. I also have a Hornady Concentricity gauge, but I don't use it yet.

How many pieces of brass do you like to have on hand for a competition rifle?
What kind of neck turning equipment?
Which dies? Redding or Forster bushing neck sizer, seater, and F/L die. Or custom?
Do you trim the meplats?
Is the chargemaster accurate enough?

Damn...I used to think golf was expensive!

 

[asbestosglove]

Unless you are going to put in the time to get to the top of f/tr, keep your reloading simple so you won't grow to hate it and thus hate getting ready for a match. The equipment you have is quite adequate. Get one good load, stick to it, learn to shoot it. You mentioned the 185 Bergers. Get a load going at least 2700 that will group and stop experimenting and go shooting. Learn to read wind for your chosen load. You will lose many more points changing loads looking for perfection than shooting a lesser load that you have experience behind. I see champion shooters change their load or bullet looking for better only to fall behind just because of the learning curve any change in the system involves. Just my .02.

 

[damoncali]

Looking for input on reloading system as well. I currently use a single stage RCBS, Lee Collet die, Lee F/L die, Lee seating die, RCBS handheld priming tool, Giraud trimmer for brass, RCBS Chargemaster, Lee case prep center, Hornady OAL gauge, Hornady LNL bushing, Mitutoyo caliper. I'm planning on turning the necks, but I'm not having the chamber set up so tight that only neck turned brass fits. The neck turning is going to be more along the lines of getting out the high spots. I'm open to suggestions on that though. I'll be using Lapua brass. I also have a Hornady Concentricity gauge, but I don't use it yet.

How many pieces of brass do you like to have on hand for a competition rifle?
What kind of neck turning equipment?
Which dies? Redding or Forster bushing neck sizer, seater, and F/L die. Or custom?
Do you trim the meplats?
Is the chargemaster accurate enough?

Damn...I used to think golf was expensive!

I get 100 cases at a time. Our matches run 60 rounds, and you need a handful for sighters. With careful reloading, they last a long time. (My current batch of 6XC Norma brass is on reload #7 or so and still going strong - it may outlast the barrel). Neck turning is not as helpful unless you use a tight neck (in fact, it can reduce brass life). One of the main benefits is that it keeps you from getting split necks if you run a fairly tight clearance. I have a benhcrest rifle that I can reload without sizing the cases at all because neck clearance is .001" on the diameter. The cases come out of the rifle the same size as they go into it. (Don't do that - it's not necessary and I do, in fact, size those cases for other reasons. But it illustrates the point that tight clearances mean less brass working). My current F class rifle has about .006" clearance, which is on the high side of what I wanted (but the reamer was in stock at the smith, so I used it). .004" of diametrical clearance is about perfect in my opinion.

I measure the brass neck thickness (You will want a tube mic if you get into tight necks - calipers won't hack it.), and turn them as little as possible so that they are all turned 100% around the circumference. Then add 2 x your turned neck thickness + the bullet diameter and add .004". That's what you want the neck diameter to be. (Yes, this means buying the brass before setting the chamber spec.) This is ideal, but not God's Law. If it's more practical to go a couple thous bigger, go ahead. I wouldn't generally cut it closer than .003-.004", though.

I use a sinclair tool to turn necks. There are others out there, and they all work the same way. I turn by hand because it keeps the heat down, but I get the impression I'm in the minority on that.

Alternatively, skip the turning, and order a reamer that is about .004" bigger than your thickest piece of brass. That's probably 90% as good as all the fuss I just described. But you only have to turn once, so I just do it.

I use Redding comp dies, and they work well enough. All you need is a legitimate 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, and any decent dies should be able to do that for you. Bushing are a requirement for turned necks. I prefer Full length bushing sizers. Neck sizing alone is asking for trouble. It will bite you eventually. Custom is not necessary, but I will admit to coveting one of the Warner Tool adjustable sizers.

I don't trim meplats because it reduces BC unless you also point, and I'm just too lazy/busy to go to all that trouble. I'm not quite to the point where I feel like the effort is worth it. I'm still dropping a few too many points to whatthefuckery to try to game an extra 1-2% out of the BC.

A Chargemaster is fine. Any scale is, really, as long as it's working properly.

 

[memilanuk]

I'm still dropping a few too many points to whatthefuckery to try to game an extra 1-2%

^ +1000 Tattoo it on your forehead and remember that.

If you're building a rifle and just getting into precision / volume reloading, leave neck turning and meplat uniforming and bullet pointing alone, for now at least. You're going to have enough on your plate just getting everything else lined out. Once you do, add one or two things at a time - say neck turning, or trimming+pointing rather than trying everything at once.

Don't dick around with an uber-custom chamber cut to fit your brass for F/TR. Get something based on a Palma or an Obermeyer chamber - say a 2013 US FTR team reamer, or something recommended by D. Kiff @ PTG for the bullets you want to use. Trust me, it will shoot and perform better than you need.

Redding Type 'S' F/L bushing dies for sizing, and a Forster Ultra BR seater (same features/results as the Redding Competition seater, at a fraction of the cost).

I tend to go the other way for brass... I get at least 300 per barrel. 500+ if I can swing it. Several times a year around here we have multi-day state/regional tournaments on back-to-back weekends, and at 130-150+ rds per weekend, you go thru brass fast. Trying to reload during the week around work and family *sucks*, and practically invites Murphy's Law. I've ran into that a few times when I had 'only' 300pcs of brass for a given gun... That said, if all you plan on shooting is local one-day matches, 100pcs will get you by for a good while. When you want to start going to bigger events, you're going to want more brass.

 

[Denys]

I get 500 cases from the same lot when I get a new barrel and that bunch lives with the barrel and is retired with the barrel. We're talking 8 loads out of the brass, give or take.

If you only shoot at Bayou, you can still get into multi day matches for F-class MR and LR where 100 cases will have you furiously loading during the night. Last year, at the Nationals and Worlds I burned through 400 rounds and had a match the week after I came back. I keep my loading always in rotation, there's always one or two boxes of 100 rounds that is ready to go and I plan way ahead to make sure all the brass prep steps are always in movement so I have all the non-loaded cases primed or in process.

I already have my next set of 500 cases waiting for the barrels that should be coming in next month. Plan ahead, there are long lead times for some components.

 

[bluto77]

I appreciate all the advice. I just thought I had gone deep into the rabbit hole a couple of years ago when I started reloading and getting various custom rifles, but this is a completely new level of "crazy"!

My plan is to be competitive at more than just the local level, and while I have a long way to go and much "practice" (aka having fun shooting) in my future before I get there, I want to put myself onto a level playing field equipment-wise and remove many of those variables from the equation, thus leaving mainly me to work on to improve. I already have 2 different custom 308's that have both printed sub .25 min groups at 300 yards during load development with 185 Juggs. I shot a 444-10 at one 300 yd match and a 443-11 at another 300 yd match off an Atlas bipod and rear squeeze bag to place 3rd in Master/UC. Actually cleaned the 3rd relay in the first match. But those aren't overly acceptable results to me. Both of those rifles are of the tactical variety, with 20" 10tw and 26" 12tw barrels getting ~ 2450 and ~ 2600, which is good enough to get a little bit better results than I've already gotten, but not enough to one day shoot with the top F T/R shooters at Bayou. My view is this, if I'm going to spend the money on a dedicated F T/R rig, when I already have pefectly good rifles in hand, then I need to step up my reloading game equally.

I've decided to go the neck turning route. It will only add a few hours of prep, only one time, and nominal cost (relative to cost of rig) upfront to do so, and I get that much more accuracy out of it. And as small of an amount as it may be, it could be the difference in a couple of points or X's. I have a reamer with .168 fb and turned neck. Going to order the Whidden dies, as they're not that much more than a set of Redding S bushing, again, relative to cost of the new rifle. No meplat trimming or bullet pointing yet. And just to clarify, my current reloading routine already consists of a single stage press, weighing all charges on Chargemaster, measuring each round to ogive, etc, so the neck turning is only adding one thing to my process.

What trigger/pull weight do you guys use? Two stage seems to give me the most control, and I have Huber in all my bolt rifles. But they're 2 - 2.5 lb break, and I want to go lighter. He will only go down to 1.5 on his 2 stage, but will go as low as .5 on single stage. I picked up a used single stage of his to try out. I like Jewell too, but prefer the feel of John's trigger. Others to consider?

My schedule will allow me to get out to the range once a week early in the morning, so I will be able to get a good amount of time in behind the trigger. How much practice do others get?

 

[damoncali]

I use a Barnard (two-stage) set at more or less 10 oz. I think it's fine. It's not hard to hold a 18 pound rifle on target while prone, so triggers aren't that important so long as it's decent.

 

[bluto77]

Btw, the term "whatthefuckery" has had me cracking up the last couple of days! I'm going to have to start using that.

 

[bluto77]

Cerakoting vs Polishing

Is there an effect on temp of the barrel going one route over the other? In this game, our only real concern with barrel heat is how fast does it get hot while shooting a 20 - 25 shot string, and will that heat effect accuracy or cause POI shift. Right? Not neccessarily worried about heat dissipation, or how fast the barrel cools, because there is enough time between relays for it to cool down. So does cerakote somewhat "trap" heat in, compared to polishing, and cause the barrel to get hotter faster?

 

[Denys]

Ok, but I can assure you that in the Houston area in the summertime, heat dissipation is important. Some of us even use little bubble machines to push "cool" air through the bore between relays.

Extreme heat is what damages the bore and getting that heat out of the bore faster is less damaging to the bore. So if you put stuff on your barrel that slows down heat dissipation, you're not doing your bore any favors. A polished barrel has the smallest surface area for that barrel contour, not a good thing. This is why bead blasting is a good thing as it increase the surface area and aids in heat dissipation.

 

[damoncali]

Coating may actually increase heat dissipation due to possibly increased radiation. It's so thin that I doubt it insulates anything. You'd have to test it to find out, but I'd be surprised if it were a practically significant difference. I don't buy that heat is all that much of a problem anyhow if your rifle isn't moving around as it gets hot. The flame temperature of powder is higher than the melting point of steel (about 2500 degrees). Does it matter if the steel started out at 70 degrees or 200? Maybe a little, but it's not something I worry about. We're not talking about machine guns, after all.

 

[bluto77]

I have a spiral fluted MTU contour that is polished, and poi walked up about .25 MOA in a 300yd match in August this year (Houston). And that was a 45 rd "summer rules" match.

 

[haroldwilson]

If a guy can't dick around with some whatthefuckery, what's the point?