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Building custom....which action????

Lrdchaos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 19, 2011
742
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Oklahoma
This will likely by my last build and it’s going to be a 308.

I’m looking at either the Defiance deviant or the Bighorn TL3 actions. This rifle will be shot out to 1k yards but mainly used for 600 or less. My plan is to drop the action into a Mcmillan A5 or a KMW Sentinel, still deciding that as well.

Thanks in advance.
 
I put my money down on a Nucleus. Since you can't order one now, I'd probably get the Bighorn Origin. It's not missing any features from a TL3 that I need.

If it fit the budget, a Mausingfield would be lovely.
 
So surgeon and defiance too plain and boring now a days or other actions are a bit more advanced?
 
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My two cents for what they're worth... Try to handle them before you decide if you haven't already, same with stocks. I just did my first build and went with surgeon after handling Defiance, BAT, Stiller and surgeons. The TL3 or Mausingfield weren't really available in Canada at the time I picked
 
Surgeon, Defiance, Bighorn, Nucleus, Mausingfield.........I really don't think you can go wrong with any of them. Pretty much splitting hairs.
 
I shoot 2 Defiance actions and love them. I did order a Bighorn Origin to build out a spare rifle though. The Origin seems like it is a good deal. They just told us we should expect them no later than August, aiming for earlier than that.
 
TL3 changeable bolt heads and super high tolerances allow you to get shouldered barrels from a smith without them having to have your action in their hands. So after its built you can change calibers or just put a new barrel on after shooting it out at home with minimal tools.
 
Love my TL3. The QD firing pin assembly and combination of mechanical ejector and CRF are an underestimated benefit for doing stuff at the reloading bench. Pull the pin out and you instantly have a "zero effort" bolt close that allows test fitting brass when sizing, checking distance to lands with a bullet etc. I use that so often I don't think I'd consider an action without those features.

Of course swappable bolt face is another huge plus. I have a 223 barrel, 6 Dasher barrel, and 7 SAUM barrel that I can change between on the same action. I didn't need to send the action in to get those barrels either, and 2 out of the 3 barrels were done by different gunsmiths that have never seen my action in person.
 
All I run are SURGEONS and I love them, but I guess I am a little bias.
 
Defiance vs Bighorn TL3 is not a close race for a tactical rifle. Mausingfield vs TL3, for my money, I took the TL3.
 
I have Defiance and a Tempest.

My honest opinion is that all these custom actions are great. I would buy either of mine again. But Bighorn, Mausingfield, Curtis, etc, all will treat you great.
 
Running a Gap w Templar which I think the clearances are to tight. Have a Surgeon and Curtis Vector coming within the next 30 days....
 
Its Not on your list but if you can get your hands on a lone peak fuzion or razor. Give one a look. They are very nice actions.
 
If your going to be running in dusty or dirty conditions I wouldn't consider the Defiance. Bighorn is a good choice, I was in the same boat as you not long ago and I went with a Surgeon. My next build I'm thinking about a Curtis Custom Vector or Impact Precision though worth taking a look at those too.
 
I appreciate the feedback! I’m looking at devaints, Lone Peak and Impact actions at this time. I have also considered the TL3, but I’m still on the fence. I could probably grab one out of a hat and be fine, I don’t compete just target shoot.
 
I appreciate the feedback! I’m looking at devaints, Lone Peak and Impact actions at this time. I have also considered the TL3, but I’m still on the fence. I could probably grab one out of a hat and be fine, I don’t compete just target shoot.

I don't think you will go wrong just keep in mind if you run in dirty conditions at all the Defiance is not a good idea. I really wanted to go that route but I wanted something reliable in all conditions so I went a different route. Those are all excellent choices if you are able to try to handle them it should help with your decision
 
I have both Defiance and BigHorn TL3 and honestly I'm impressed with the TL3 right out the gate. Defiance took about 2500 firings to be as smooth as the DLC coated TL3 is.
 
no mention of Curtis yet... roller ball cocking piece, true 60-degree throw are hard to beat... I love the axiom.
 
Man, wouldn't it be cool to have every custom action right in front of us to try a side by side with on all of them!!!

The Mausingfield is almost perfection. By far the most perfect feeding and ejecting action I've owned and smoothest cycling, then there's all the well thought out little features in it. If only it had a super slick and lighter bolt lift. I lightened the firing pin spring weight, polished and lubed the appropriate surfaces and the bolt lift still isn't as nice as my Surgeon. Even so I like the M better.

Someday I want to get a single shot custom bolt action. I think I might get a Bighorn because of the swapable boltheads.
 
U might consider the builder ( if not U) making your rifle and with which action he has had the most experience ..and with all actions being similar, the finished product is the key issue.
 
It's your money, but if it was mine.... Bighorn or American Rifle Co. M5, TL3, Nucleus, Origin.
 
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I don't think you will go wrong just keep in mind if you run in dirty conditions at all the Defiance is not a good idea. I really wanted to go that route but I wanted something reliable in all conditions so I went a different route.

Tons of great actions mentioned in this thread even though the OP specifically mentioned Defiance and BigHorn. The BigHorn is certainly a great action and can hold it's own against others but for you to use a blanket statement about Defiance not running in dirty conditions hints to me that you are not very well informed. You did not say why but I assume that you are saying the bolt versus receiver fit is too tight.

Defiance makes every action to the customer's specifications. Lots of choices on ejection ports, bolt nose style, rear tangs, Pic Rail specs, etc.

One of the things that can be changed is the bolt body diameter.

When the fit between the bolt and the receiver raceways is too tight, the door is opened for the action running poorly when dirty. This, in addition to using bolt handle/knob combinations that are too long are certainly asking for trouble.

Previously Defiance did not offer options. They do now and a properly spec'd out Defiance can run with any action out there. In fact, to the point that the trigger you choose is the limiting factor in severe conditions rather than the host action.
 
Tons of great actions mentioned in this thread even though the OP specifically mentioned Defiance and BigHorn. The BigHorn is certainly a great action and can hold it's own against others but for you to use a blanket statement about Defiance not running in dirty conditions hints to me that you are not very well informed. You did not say why but I assume that you are saying the bolt versus receiver fit is too tight.

Defiance makes every action to the customer's specifications. Lots of choices on ejection ports, bolt nose style, rear tangs, Pic Rail specs, etc.

One of the things that can be changed is the bolt body diameter.

When the fit between the bolt and the receiver raceways is too tight, the door is opened for the action running poorly when dirty. This, in addition to using bolt handle/knob combinations that are too long are certainly asking for trouble.

Previously Defiance did not offer options. They do now and a properly spec'd out Defiance can run with any action out there. In fact, to the point that the trigger you choose is the limiting factor in severe conditions rather than the host action.
Wondering if you would elaborate on the specific proper specs for a defiance? Thanks!
 
I have been running Defiance actions for many years in competition and PRS matches. Have yet to have any major issues in rain, madd etc. Like Terry said they offer a wide availability of options if you decided to go that route.
 
I have a Gap Templar which is made by Defiance and I just called them about a replacement bolt.. I specifically pointed out about the bolt clearance being way to tight as I get binding even w a well lubed bolt. They told me the action would have to be sent in for a replacement bolt to be fitted to the action and I couldn’t get additional clearance on the bolt. That was enough for me to order a Surgeon Wsm action for my next build.
 
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Actually I ordered a Curtis Vector Wsm and Surgeon Wsm action. Time will tell which one runs better.
 
Of the two actions listed, I'd go TL3. So that you could change barrels easier should you change your mind about the caliber. Future proof the last build a little bit.
 
Tons of great actions mentioned in this thread even though the OP specifically mentioned Defiance and BigHorn. The BigHorn is certainly a great action and can hold it's own against others but for you to use a blanket statement about Defiance not running in dirty conditions hints to me that you are not very well informed. You did not say why but I assume that you are saying the bolt versus receiver fit is too tight.

Defiance makes every action to the customer's specifications. Lots of choices on ejection ports, bolt nose style, rear tangs, Pic Rail specs, etc.

One of the things that can be changed is the bolt body diameter.

When the fit between the bolt and the receiver raceways is too tight, the door is opened for the action running poorly when dirty. This, in addition to using bolt handle/knob combinations that are too long are certainly asking for trouble.

Previously Defiance did not offer options. They do now and a properly spec'd out Defiance can run with any action out there. In fact, to the point that the trigger you choose is the limiting factor in severe conditions rather than the host action.

I don't know why they seem to bind up in dirty conditions although a lot of people seem to throw around the idea the bolt to receiver tolerances are too tight.

So are you saying if I use an off the shelf Defiance action from a reputable gunsmith on here it won't bind in dirty conditions? Because there's quite a few people who report having there actions bind when they get dirty.

Can you explain what a properly spec'd action means?

Why do certain other actions run just fine in dirty conditions without any special specs?
 
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Defiant brings nothing to the table that the other 700 clones don't. I don't get the nut hugging defiance gets from the crowd. Pick any of those clones, with the features you like, stick a good barrel on it and they will perform the same. If you want true versatility and reliability on another level, Bighorn or ARC are the way to go.

Buying anything other than those two is pointless IMO.
 
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like most have said, there are alot of good actions out there. especially over the last couple or years.

but they all are...
round
rail up top (integral or not, there is no accuracy or durability difference if done right)
bigger bolt knob
2-3 bolt lugs (usually)
more consistent tolerances from receiver to receiver (but almost all smiths will touch up the faces anyway)
control or push feed
sako style, pin or mauser style ejection
1-2 springs inside

if you get where im going, a bolt action is not very complicated mechanically. 10 machined pieces of metal to proper tolerances its really not rocket science.
and after all that measuring effort put in to the action the smith will touch it up or hand lap the lugs a few times, totally changing the tolerances from the OEM.
a few years ago most of the new custom actions were being made by stiller or defiance anyway, they just had a different company name laser engraved on the opposite side of the ejection port.

its down to options and wait time for me.
just do some homework on what company your buying from.
all these innovative/proprietary features are great but in 5 years when that company goes belly up and you need a part, you now have a really nice club.

get the one that fits the budget and get your build done sooner, or just ask the smith what he prefers.
you and the smith are a team in a build, the happier you both are the better it will come out.

and when all else fails listen the Mr. Cross, he forgot more about this stuff then all of us put together.

YMMV
 
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I don't think you will go wrong just keep in mind if you run in dirty conditions at all the Defiance is not a good idea. I really wanted to go that route but I wanted something reliable in all conditions so I went a different route. Those are all excellent choices if you are able to try to handle them it should help with your decision

I don't understand this reference. I live in the Great Basin, which is a high altitude desert. The wind always blows and all my gear is always covered in dirt. My Defiance runs great, no issues.
 
I don't know why they seem to bind up in dirty conditions although a lot of people seem to throw around the idea the bolt to receiver tolerances are too tight.

So are you saying if I use an off the shelf Defiance action from a reputable gunsmith on here it won't bind in dirty conditions? Because there's quite a few people who report having there actions bind when they get dirty.

Can you explain what a properly spec'd action means?

Why do certain other actions run just fine in dirty conditions without any special specs?

I think you are correct that there are a lot of people having issues with the bolts fitting too tight in the receivers. Long time issue with older Defiance, BAT and Nesika.

If you are having a reputable shop build the rifle and they know it will be used in tough conditions, they should be able to deliver a reliable rifle regardless. IF the action is delivered with tight fit between the receiver and bolt, the bolt body can still be adjusted slightly smaller as part of the build process. I know a few good shops regularly mentioned here that have done that.

When instructing classes and/or clinics we have also seen regular occurrences of otherwise good-to-go actions binding due to ridiculously long bolt handles. We have even seen Rem 700 based rifles with factory bolt/receiver fit be put in a bind when cycling due to extra long handles. One has to remember that the further you get your knob or contact point away from the bolt path, the easier it is to pull and push off that axis enough to bind the snot out of things. We often see such rifles having their bolts pushed forward for the first part of cycling with the shooter's thumb on the bolt shroud or closer down the handle to the bolt body.

Bottom line is that an individual can throw together a rifle that is a tack driver these days but if they expect to run it in severe conditions, they have to pay attention to what additional details are needed to accommodate. Ditto for many shops that build rifles with the intent of getting them out of the door quickly without looking at the bigger picture.

NOTE: More than anything else we still see way more triggers causing grief and way more operator induced malfunctions due to splitting atoms with COAL and zero tolerances between their ammo and barrel.

I believe most "off the shelf" Defiance actions are going to default to a 0.700 bolt body diameter. They did not allow deviations of that diameter in the past on individual orders for their own production labeled actions. Contact Mike or Norm to see what their current policy is.

On "branded" actions, they do allow variations not previously offered.
Bolts on all actions sent to my shop are 0.697" diameter and with a shortened handle boss/stem.

I send the bolts among other action components to Ion Bond and CeraKote the receiver inside and out. Rifles built on actions spec'd in this manner continue to work very well for me in Law Enforcement circles. North American Sniper Championship just finished in the rain and mud last week and several KMW sniper rifles ran there with no issues.

Defiance is not the only quality action out there. They offer me the consistency, delivery time frame and options I need to build the rifles I want to build for my niche. I can choose any maker of action I wish but do not feel that I am taking a back seat to anyone at all in choosing them as my supplier. Impact, BigHorn and others certainly make awesome actions as well.
 
I think you are correct that there are a lot of people having issues with the bolts fitting too tight in the receivers. Long time issue with older Defiance, BAT and Nesika.

If you are having a reputable shop build the rifle and they know it will be used in tough conditions, they should be able to deliver a reliable rifle regardless. IF the action is delivered with tight fit between the receiver and bolt, the bolt body can still be adjusted slightly smaller as part of the build process. I know a few good shops regularly mentioned here that have done that.

When instructing classes and/or clinics we have also seen regular occurrences of otherwise good-to-go actions binding due to ridiculously long bolt handles. We have even seen Rem 700 based rifles with factory bolt/receiver fit be put in a bind when cycling due to extra long handles. One has to remember that the further you get your knob or contact point away from the bolt path, the easier it is to pull and push off that axis enough to bind the snot out of things. We often see such rifles having their bolts pushed forward for the first part of cycling with the shooter's thumb on the bolt shroud or closer down the handle to the bolt body.

Bottom line is that an individual can throw together a rifle that is a tack driver these days but if they expect to run it in severe conditions, they have to pay attention to what additional details are needed to accommodate. Ditto for many shops that build rifles with the intent of getting them out of the door quickly without looking at the bigger picture.

NOTE: More than anything else we still see way more triggers causing grief and way more operator induced malfunctions due to splitting atoms with COAL and zero tolerances between their ammo and barrel.

I believe most "off the shelf" Defiance actions are going to default to a 0.700 bolt body diameter. They did not allow deviations of that diameter in the past on individual orders for their own production labeled actions. Contact Mike or Norm to see what their current policy is.

On "branded" actions, they do allow variations not previously offered.
Bolts on all actions sent to my shop are 0.697" diameter and with a shortened handle boss/stem.

I send the bolts among other action components to Ion Bond and CeraKote the receiver inside and out. Rifles built on actions spec'd in this manner continue to work very well for me in Law Enforcement circles. North American Sniper Championship just finished in the rain and mud last week and several KMW sniper rifles ran there with no issues.

Defiance is not the only quality action out there. They offer me the consistency, delivery time frame and options I need to build the rifles I want to build for my niche. I can choose any maker of action I wish but do not feel that I am taking a back seat to anyone at all in choosing them as my supplier. Impact, BigHorn and others certainly make awesome actions as well.

@Terry Cross Would love to get a sentinel or long sword from you! Don’t suppose you have any sitting on the shelf looking for a new home? Haha
And thanks for the explanations Terry!
 
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I have both TL3's and Deviants. Both are very nice and you will be very happy either way. If you walked up to me with one in each hand and made me pick one of them, I'd take the Deviant.
 
Lots of great ideas and opinions. Great read. I am familiar with many of the actions listed. How many of these follow a Rem 700 footprint?

I ask this from a Chassis standpoint. I sell the cadex chassis and we have had great experience with Mausinfield. Surgeon, Defiance and a few others are specific modifications we offer. Not Curtis or Big Horn, for example, specifically.
 
Lots of great ideas and opinions. Great read. I am familiar with many of the actions listed. How many of these follow a Rem 700 footprint?

I ask this from a Chassis standpoint. I sell the cadex chassis and we have had great experience with Mausinfield. Surgeon, Defiance and a few others are specific modifications we offer. Not Curtis or Big Horn, for example, specifically.

both are R700 foot print
 
Out of the 2 .....TL3
Lighter bolt lift , controlled round feed,mechanical ejector, bayonet firing pin,
Swapable bolt heads. DLCed
Runs dirty too
All Great features to have at the same cost.
Why wouldn’t you?