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Range Report bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

M

Mc85

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 22, 2004
170
0
39
Indiana
Hey any ideas? I am still getting the hang of shooting past 300 yds. Consistently my rifle will be dead on at 100, but as I move out too 500 and beyond I am hitting right. at 700 yds about 1.25-1.75 moa. Any ideas?
I don't have a great amount of faith in my scope and am wanting to know if maybe the elevation just isn't traking straight or if it is something I am doing, or if there is anything else coming into play. Spin drift? how much effect does it have?
I am shooting a savage 10fcp using hornady 168 a-max's and 175 grain SMK's. Last group I put together was in shifting winds one sec coming from 9 the next from 3 and a mix of head winds in between. I held the group to under 1 moa, all shots just came in to the right of where I expected.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

BOLTRIPPER... at the risk of sounding dumb, or atleast very tired I am afraid my brain isn't processing your question..lol.

the Scope itself is (yeah yeah but Im 24 and on a budget while waiting for the last 200$ needed to buy the nightforce Im drooling over) a centerpoint. Elevation wise the adjustments needed are right on +/- .25 or so moa with what JBM shows.
I dont have the greatest faith in the internals, and amd wondering if there may be some side to side play as I move through the elevation adjustment.

I would be happy to admit it could be me, but what would I be doing that could cause that, and a very consistent that 4 3 different outings?

btw the group was spaced vertical 6.75 inches, left right spread was maybe 3 inches tops...


idk what else to say.
Sorry for not getting your question right now.

thanks for taking the time to reply!!
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

If it is the scope that you are concerned about, you can do a box test to see how it's holding up. Then you can run through your elevation and windage test to see if you get what you dial. Will need a large target for the second test. Remember once you go beyond 500 yards, any mistake (bad habbits) will maginify on your target. Check your parallax also.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

check your scope leveling, if its canted to the right your going to be shooting to the right down range when dialing dope.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

All the previous suggestions point to some likely culprits so check them out. My personal suspicion would be that you do not have the scope mounted perfectly level which makes you unintentionally dial in small amounts of windage every time you dial in different elevation. Several mentions of factory-installed canted reticles running around right now too which I wouldn't eliminate as a possibility with your bargain level scope.

I would also add that since you are aparently a new shooter that you may just not be detecting or compensating for the wind correctly. You say your horizontal spread was only 3 inches which at 500 yards is great. May have been a fluke though considering the wind shifts you described.

Personally I would worry more about your vertical stringing which is likely the result of improper breathing and is something that you have to fix in yourself rather than your equipment.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Thanks for all the great input.
smile.gif

I have actually been shooting for about 8 yrs, but until this year never found a place to shoot past 300yds. Also this is my first decently accurate rifle. My 500 yd group with the wind was able to easily be covered by my hand, and like I said 700yds was 6.75 inches.. So whatever I am doing it is atleast consistant, atleast with the groups coming into the right. I agree I gotta work on the vertical spacing... that did kinda suck!!! lol
I did make sure as best I could by eye that my reticle was level before taking each shot.Maybe my eye cants to the right LOL.
Seriously so far there has been a lot of good input and I will make sure to watch for all the things suggested.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">check your scope leveling, if its canted to the right your going to be shooting to the right down range when dialing dope. </div></div>

Actually, I believe it's the other way around. A scope canted to the LEFT will cause you to shoot right, becoming more obvious the more elevation you dial up. In other words, *if* that is indeed the problem, you'd need to rotate your scope RIGHT (or Clockwise) to correct it.

I could very well be backward, as I've never had to actually make the correction. Maybe someone else who knows can chime in.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

It´s backwards... cant to the right, shoots to the right. As you said, it is very noticeable at long range when you dial a lot of elevation into the scope.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hey any ideas? I am still getting the hang of shooting past 300 yds. Consistently my rifle will be dead on at 100, but as I move out too 500 and beyond I am hitting right. at 700 yds about 1.25-1.75 moa. Any ideas?
I don't have a great amount of faith in my scope and am wanting to know if maybe the elevation just isn't traking straight or if it is something I am doing, or if there is anything else coming into play. Spin drift? how much effect does it have?
I am shooting a savage 10fcp using hornady 168 a-max's and 175 grain SMK's. Last group I put together was in shifting winds one sec coming from 9 the next from 3 and a mix of head winds in between. I held the group to under 1 moa, all shots just came in to the right of where I expected. </div></div>

I have been working on this very same gremlin for months, since I started pushing it to longer ranges.

1. My scope and rifle were never level, scope was canted CW and ACD was bubbled to the canted scope (Wheeler Level Level Level is not plum). I fixed this issue with feeler gauge to remount scope 3 times, a weighted string to vertically level two 3" round targets 36moa apart and not worrying if my scope now is canted, the crosshairs must track true, my rifle shot plum center at 300 after this process.

2. Shooting from a bipod, my rifle will torque CW unless I reset the ACD level with each shot. If I do not, my groups will walk further right with each shot.

3. Wind will move a 308 175g bullet more than I ever thought when it comes to precision shooting. Last time out, I used a sheet of plywood as a wind break at the muzzle. Always a wind at muzzle. Worked superb chasing my gremlin.

4. Parallax is something I am working on, has caused me some very open and very tight groups past 100.

5. Fundamentals of shooting. Getting square behind the rifle so rifle hop is up and down, not to the right. Trigger control so finger pulls directly rearward. This is quite hard for me being a short gun shooter for years and learning to rape the trigger. Follow through, I still every once in a while pull my head as the bullet exits the bore but I can see at most times now when I do it, crosshairs go right. I am working on calling my shots along with all this. Putting a bullet on a moose at 250 yards with a hunting rifle is quite easy but learning precision shooting to acquire moa out past 100 is totally different.

I am no expert but a shooter who is learning this craft and everyday I learn something new it seams.

Good luck
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Thanks again to everyone for the awesome input!!! It gives me a lot to consider next time I head out to the range.
If I ever figure which one/ones lol of the above is my problem I will be sure to post. Glad to see I am not the only one with the problem!! ha ha.

Sucky thing is the 700 yd group was .9 moa, and my 500yd group was around the same maybe slightly smaller... just all to the bloody right!!! ha ha. These were both shot with shifting winds, and some of the shots were taken with the wind blowing to the left. Though I did hold over for it..., maybe it is just dumb luck how much I compensated for it happened to bu just slightly too much and put it right with the others..lol ...idk.

Thanks again though for more things to ponder!! :)
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Coriolis effect. Drift is to the right at distance. Due to the earth's rotation. Good post on the Hide recently. Search it and you'll get more info than you really can process.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Are you saying that the Coriolis effect is causing about 1.25 - 1.75 MOA drift to the right at a distance of 700 yards?

First of all, are you referring to the Coriolis effect, or the true spin drift effect? Either case, I would very much like to see the mathematic calculation for that distance of 700 yards? He is saying that he has a drift of about 8.75" to 12.25" at 700 yards.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trigger.... </div></div>You're dialing-in a bad trigger pull.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trigger.... </div></div>You're dialing-in a bad trigger pull. </div></div>


Im cool with that. I mean accepting that that is the cause.
If it is how do I fix it?
I am using the tip of my fingure way before the first joint.
I am trying to squeeze slowly and steady. I had 2 rounds that didn't ignite on the first impact,and when that happened I didn't see any flinch through the scope. I know for sure on my second 500yd group when things opened up a bit (but still stayed right) it was my trigger pull as my fingers were quite frozen by then. The pull was "hard" due to cold fingers, and I had no real feel left.
But groups opening up from a crappy trigger pull is different from pulling shots from a crappy trigger pull.. I understand that, but uh how do I fix it if that is the culprit. What am I doing wrong, or should I be doing to fix the problem.

Thanks again!!!!!!!
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

The spin drift is VERY small at 500 yds, nobody is likely to notice it (about 0.25 MOA). Even at 700 yds it should be only about 0.5 MOA with this load.

The Coriolis effect is ULTRA small, even at 1000 yds probably nobody will notice it, it is about 0.25 MOA.

If you see 1.5 MOA at 700 yds there is something else at play.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Spin drift is very real. Gets more dramatic with diffrent setups than others. At 500 it isn't much. With 308 you will notice it at 700. Trigger "pull" can be very real also. Practice dry firing a lot. Get steadied up with your rifle then squeeze the trigger so you don't believe you are pulling it. (You are right handed, correct. You pull left with left handed) Then try squeezing with eyes closed and look at target after squeezing trigger to see if you are pulling it. Be honest with your self or it isn't gona tell ya a thing.
Hope this helps.

 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

At 700 I calculate only .1 moa drift and .2 at 800. 1000 is .3moa only .5 at 1500 yards.

It takes a lot of shooting to be certain about these dopes.
That is less than 1 inch at 700 yards.

You pull the trigger, your zero isn't were you think it is, your rifle has a nice cant to it, there is a wind you aren't seeing in your bullets path.
That is about it for what will effect impact at 700 yards.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

If elevating the reticle does not raise the POI in a perfectly vertical line, the scope is canted. You can do this at whatever distance the scope is zeroed for; you don't need to take it out further, where winds can ruin the precision of the POI.

I level my scope reticle by levelling the receiver, then aligning the horizontal reticle wire with the siding of the house across the street. After spending a Summer installing siding, I can thoroughly confirm that most installers level their siding very carefully. I level the receiver with a simple pocket string level.

Greg
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trigger.... </div></div>You're dialing-in a bad trigger pull. </div></div>

I am using the tip of my fingure way before the first joint.
I am trying to squeeze slowly and steady. </div></div>

Use the first pad of your trigger finger halfway between the tip and the joint.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Follow-thru, follow-thru, follow-thru. Once you learn it, you will find other areas of your shooting that are deficient. (sling tension, cheek pressure, butt placement in the shoulder, trigger pull/squeeze)
Proper follow-thru will allow you to call your shots. Once you are able to do this, you will know the mistake you made before the bullet gets out the bbl.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Use the first pad of your trigger finger halfway between the tip and the joint.</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpretle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Follow-thru, follow-thru, follow-thru.</div></div>Not bad advice (other than the spelling), but I would guess, and it's a guess because I haven't seen you shoot, that it's neither of the above.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Now, tell me how that comment helps Mc in his pursuit to better marksmanship.

Seems, too me, a focus on 'follow-thru', would would let him know he executed a "bad trigger pull."
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpretle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Now, tell me how that comment helps Mc in his pursuit to better marksmanship. </div></div>First, it will make him reconsider the advice he got from anyone but Lowlight. It will refer him anew to the FAQ fundamentals section of this site. Then it will focus his research away from how he shoulders the rifle or finger tip placement. He will be left with grip and how that affects finger placement (not tip placement) and trigger pull. I'm no expert, I'm just helping with the mental math, as I had a similar trigger issue a while back and I fought Frank on it until, by process of elimination, I had to discover for myself that he was correct.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jpretle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems, too me, a focus on 'follow-thru', would would let him know he executed a "bad trigger pull." </div></div>Not necessarily. It could simply mask the real culprit.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

How do you know the bullet is "drifting"?

get someone that knows what they are doing to spot your trace. If if goes in a straight line to the point of impact, then it is you or the weapons system pointing it there, not the bullet "drifting".
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you know the bullet is "drifting"?

get someone that knows what they are doing to spot your trace. If if goes in a straight line to the point of impact, then it is you or the weapons system pointing it there, not the bullet "drifting".</div></div>

Lol if I knew somebody I would!!! lol. Indiana doesn't seem to breed to many people that think about shooting much past 100yds, and 300...yeah right let alone 500 to 1000...lol. Could just be that there is a significant lack of places to do so in this state, atleast places open to the public anywyas.

The place I am going now is out of a small acrhery,fishing and shooting shop about a hour and a half away. There is a nice thousand yard range about a hour and a half away to the east, but it is a memebers only place and about 300$ a year for membership. I am highly considering it once the weather warms and I see if I still have a job come summer. Until then I am mostly on my own trying to figure this stuff out, with the exception of any help any of you provide.

Everyones input so far deff has me thinking. I am very glad for it!!!

My own personal opinion so far is that I am either pulling the shots with my trigger pull,or it is scope related. I am hoping to have a nightforce scope mounted in a few weeks. That should eliminate any worry with the optics tracking right.
The fact both 500 and 700yd groups were consistent, and sub moa just to the right tells me whatever is going on is repeatable.Weather it be something I am doing, or something with the weapons system.
Idk if it helps or not, but I am shooting prone off a harris with the legs buried in gravel and slight forward tension put on the legs..The reticule was leveled best I could by eye b4 each shot.If memory is correct it seems after the shot the scope jumped and settled slightly high and left. I have been paying clsoe attention to making sure I don't release my breathe or my trigger fingure until after the rifle settles from recoil.


Thanks again for all the great input ,and trying to help me get on target!
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Where're you at in Indiana? There is an 1K range there that quite a few of us from this site shoot at.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

"Indiana doesn't seem to breed to many people that think about shooting much past 100yds,"

BITE YOUR TONGUE BOY!!! I is pure Hoosier through and through, bred born and raised, and I fer sure like to take a poke at targets beyond 300 yards.

Try to do your best to hook up here like with the offer above. They re out there, you just gotta find 'em. Same holds true for about anywhere. Good luck getting it sorted out.

 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My own personal opinion so far is that I am either pulling the shots with my trigger pull,or it is scope related.

<span style="color: #FF0000">It's not a pull, it's not a squeeze...Think of it as a trigger press. Vision your finger trying to press straight back on the trigger without disturbing any of the other muscles ...
</span>

I have been paying clsoe attention to making sure I don't release my breathe or my trigger fingure until after the rifle settles from recoil.

<span style="color: #FF0000">Do not hold your breath while firing. Shoot during your natural respiratory pause. Breathe in...now exhale... That pause between breaths is your natural respiratory pause. You should break your shots here. Do not let your shots surprise you. Consistency is what you are after and a surprise is not consistent.</span>

</div></div>
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Try a 90-degree bend in the second joint of the trigger finger, with a press perpendicular to the axis of the bore.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try a 90-degree bend in the second joint of the trigger finger, with a press perpendicular to the axis of the bore. </div></div>

Putting a 90 degree bend in the second joint puts the first pad of the finger at about a 45 degree angle to the bore. Bad juju with that advice unless you plan to press the trigger not with the pad but in between the two joints, which on some rifles is not out of the question.

If you can put your second joint at 90 degrees and keep the first joint straight then you've had surgery.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: molonlabe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it's 500+ I'd have to say spin drift is a minimal factor, but a factor nonetheless.</div></div>

crack killz
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Hey! Yall talking about spin drift?
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

jHuskey you watching this?
My Friend an Wedowee point man, from Ft. Payne, Alabama, Gamer, who used to be called OSOK, is one of the best trigger men I know of. I tried a few things different and never said anything to Ronald. On the "Man In Black" Johnny Cash .308 I set the erector plum, meaning the 100yd zero and 39.5 minutes of up were on the plum line at 100yds. I had Ronald shoot her and his POI/POA was the same as mine, not off by 1/8 moa but the same. Took the stick to Hardrock and completed the test. My wind calls were the same as always, but I had to add an extra moa of left at 1K, an 900yds, 800 yd was about 3/4 moa and at 600 it was 1/2 moa. I'm going back to a canted retical. Spin Drift may be a bunch of shit, but I see something happening down range. On thursday I found I had to dial left for a right hand wind, with the retical plum,..I'm all ears?
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kick-Ass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey! Yall talking about spin drift? </div></div>

Tokyo Spin Drift to be precise..
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jHuskey you watching this?
My Friend an Wedowee point man, from Ft. Payne, Alabama, Gamer, who used to be called OSOK, is one of the best trigger men I know of. I tried a few things different and never said anything to Ronald. On the "Man In Black" Johnny Cash .308 I set the erector plum, meaning the 100yd zero and 39.5 minutes of up were on the plum line at 100yds. I had Ronald shoot her and his POI/POA was the same as mine, not off by 1/8 moa but the same. Took the stick to Hardrock and completed the test. My wind calls were the same as always, but I had to add an extra moa of left at 1K, an 900yds, 800 yd was about 3/4 moa and at 600 it was 1/2 moa. I'm going back to a canted retical. Spin Drift may be a bunch of shit, but I see something happening down range. On thursday I found I had to dial left for a right hand wind, with the retical plum,..I'm all ears?</div></div>

Silly I say, just silly that it effects you and doesn't effect me or a host of other people.... there is one for the books.

I think I am just so good my brain compensates which is why it doesn't effect me. But really what has my ear is the fact at Shot Show I sampled every program I could that had spin drift as an option and with a 308 at 1000 yards it was 1/10 a mil, 1/10th, I can't hold 1/10th a mil at 1000, but clearly you can.

To specifically speak to your ear, you can obviously call the wind at Hardrock to within 1MPH across the entire 1000 yards because a 1 MPH wind will effect your shot, are you ready for this, 1 MOA !!!! Whole Bat Shit, it's the same.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Todd let the cat out of the bag. All of his sticks are set up for spindrift. We set mine up for same and I just can't wrap my mind around the canted reticle. Trust me, I gave it my all and put a shitpot of rounds down range with it. I think his competition wins speak for itself with the spin drift compensation.

I'll just dial the drift in if needed....

 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

oh.... and my $.02?


This sport of accuracy depends on minutia. Ignoring something because it's effect is minute, well.... seems contradictory.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Daves not here man.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

MC, were exactly is your zero at at 100 yards from the bulls eye. To the right? Get at the bulls eye or to the left as close as you can, just not to the right. Then see what happens.

 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Hi, Haven't been shooting very long, but shot in a match or two at hardrock. Shooting Savage 10fcp and was shooting 168Amax and from 600yds to 800yds bullet would drift 8" to the right consistently. Talked to Lonnie Hummell at Hornady and he stated probably spin drift. Started shooting 155's and solved problem. No canted scope, gun or trigger problems. This is just from my experience.
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

I was using both 168-maxes and 175 SMK's both right. 175's seems more to the right....


 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Putting a 90 degree bend in the second joint puts the first pad of the finger at about a 45 degree angle to the bore. Bad juju with that advice unless you plan to press the trigger not with the pad but in between the two joints, which on some rifles is not out of the question. If you can put your second joint at 90 degrees and keep the first joint straight then you've had surgery.</div></div> I know what you are saying, and it may hold true for service rifle matches. But it is not true if you change your grip to do it; and neither Jacob nor I have had surgery.

Pics of what I'm talking about are on this thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...3202#Post793202
 
Re: bullet drifting right at 500 + yards,

Forgot, what twist is your rifle?

Another lesson on what spin drfit is.
It is simply the bullet rolling through tthe air as it is dropping and spiniing. the larger teh area for the bullet to drag against the air while spinning, the more drift there should be. Never been able to verify that since it is a small factor compared to wind.
ALso I have wondered if drift is excelerated if the bullet is not stable and not only the spin it catching the air but it is also swimming as the nose and tail catch the higher pressure on the bottom side of the bullet. This may increase drift.

Just thought of this and why I am wondering your twist. Also what is your elevation.

 
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