• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Heat

Heat

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 12, 2008
271
0
Southern Ohio
Ok guys, my bullet seater is leaving a deep ring on my bullets. I'm loading for a 300WSM, using Winchester brass that is annealed and I'm seating 208 Amaxs. My load is lightly compressed, if that matters. I have fired this brass about 7 times, but it's been annealed every other firing. And now every reload is putting this ring on the bullets. I am assuming it is a neck tension problem, but it's been annealed and re-sized with the same dies since day one. I went to the range yesterday with a few rounds in this condition and didn't have very good results, so I'm wondering if this is the source of my bad range day? Here is a crappy pic from my phone, but you can see the crushed ring a little ways down from the tip.
cf0eb2ea.jpg
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I'm glad you asked this question, I'm having a similar problem.
Are you chamfering the inside of the necks enough?
I've started having the same problem since my cheapy Lee champfer tool has gotten dull, I've ordered a new one, hope it fixes the problem.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Condition normally caused by compressed loads or excessive neck tension
Adjust OAL
ideally ya want boat tail junction of bullet at or just above neck junction of case
hopefully your chamber is cut based on this
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

bad chamfer and\or too much neck tension
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

The neck tension may be too high on your brass. I'd look there first. .002" to .003" is all you need.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Well, I too thought I didn't cut the chamfer deep enough so I went back through and cut them again. No change.

I've been running this same load and setup since the beginning with no issues like this so I don't understand how having a compressed load would affect it now.

Is it possible that my brass is just shot out? Like I said, nothing has changed.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I went and measured the outside of the neck of a re-sized case and it was .334" and then I measured a loaded cartridge and it is .337" so I guess my neck tension is ok?
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went and measured the outside of the neck of a re-sized case and it was .334" and then I measured a loaded cartridge and it is .337" so I guess my neck tension is ok? </div></div>

Chamfer the case mouths with a VLD tool and use a dry lube inside the necks like Moly or the NECO kit. What did the ID measure?
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I assume that you have taken your die apart and looked at the seater plug as well to make sure it is clean with nothing up in there. Is it actually putting an indentation in the bullet? If it is just a mark and not an indentation (indicating a larger problem) then take some 000 steel wool wrapped in a bullet shape around a qtip or some thing of that nature chucked in a hand drill and polish the inside of the seater cone. Does it make a popping sound when the ram is lowered, as if the bullet is sticking in there? If so the polish should fix it.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

AS wnroscoe says...polish the insides of the necks with 0000 steel wool on a bore brush. Then lube inside the case necks with Lock-Ease or HxBN suspended in alcohol. Allow to dry and see the ease. Additionally, chamfer lightly with a bullet and fine grinding compound the inside of the bullet seating stem. JMHO
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I measured the inside and they are .304". I've tried the VLD chamfer tool as well.

This is actually leaving a big indentation in the bullet, like it is crushing it but it's not sticking in the seater when I lower the ram. I tried to take a picture, but I don't have a camera that is worth a crap.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Ok, I just prepped(annealed, re-sized and chamfered) a few pieces of new brass and loaded them with the same results. I am completely lost. I don't understand how everything was fine and now all of the sudden it's not....
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

What type of seater die?
You say you annealed the new brass? why? New brass doesn't need annealing.

Looking at the picture I think I can see that the ring is deeper than it should be, but try to get some better pictures. Steady the camera on something or use a tripod.

How are you annealing the necks? How hot and how long? I can't really see in the picture, but it doesn't look like that neck was recently annealed, but it might just be the lighting.

I have a feeling it is something in the neck hardness and not really in the dimensions. .003 should be ok if the brass isn't work hardened.

Also, as William said, make sure your seater plug is clean, and if it is a floating sleeve type seater (forster or redding type), make sure to completely dissasemble your seater, clean all parts including spring completely and put a light coat of oil on the bearing surfaces.

Hope this helps,
madd0c
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Your load is compressed more then you think... try a drop tube for the powder charge. I had the exact issue with 80gr 5.56 loads even at longer then standard OAL the powder charge needed to be "settled" in the case.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

The ring is probably coming from the pressure required to seat the bullet either because the neck tension is too high or the load too compressed.

The way to know which one it is is to seat a bullet without the powder...do you get the mark?....if not, your annealing/neck tension is okay.

If you still have the ring, then I would double check your annealing process and make sure it includes the lower junction of the neck and shoulder as this area can get hard and require quite a bit of force to push the base of the bullet through the junction. This area is usually thicker as well as the brass flows into it when the case is fired.

.003 is not too much neck tension IF the brass of your bullet is not on the soft side. I've seen bullets that marked fairly easily and could only assume they might be softer than others. Otherwise, .003 is plenty of tension and will commonly cause some marking unless the neck is annealed well and is not thicker at the bottom from frequent firing.

If it is the powder, you might want to go to one that is a little faster so you can run less powder and create more room for the bullet.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

You mentioned your load is "lightly" compressed, have you tried seating an empty case? to see if the bullet is seating into the powder and stopping it? Just an idea.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I had that same issue with Hornady tips! Soft jackets was the answer! You will also notice more fouling with those too!

22 cal - 60gr Vmax's. However, they still shot sub-moa.

DSC00585.jpg


I was not using compressed loads or high neck tension! They was just really soft jackets.

Terry
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I had the same problem with the 75 grain A-Max in 22-250. I called Forster and they asked me what bullet I was using. I told them and they said my die had the wrong seating mandrel. They sent me the proper fitting seater mandrel and problem went away.

Hornady even makes a custom seating stem for that particular bullet.

I shoot compressed loads in BP shooting. A compressed load should not cause that. I do not see that in softer lead in a compressed BP load. Get the proper seating stem. I doubt the die mfr. considers your bullet as the average bullet in that cartridge. Call them, or modify your seater stem yourself.

A little neck tension problem should not cause that if you have the proper fitting seater stem. Tom.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Hornady makes seating stems specifically for the amax. I believe the Redding competition dies have a VLD stem in them already.

Changing stems may fix the marks but may also be covering up the root problem.

Hope this helps.
Trilogymac
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

f0310006.jpg


Case necks have .001 ~ .002" of elastic deformation.
Stress is still proportional to strain.
Keep stretching the neck larger and plastic deformation starts.
During this phase, the stress is constant.

Why do you care?
Because the gun culture has some errors.
One is how the term "neck tension" is measured in change in diameter. Neck diameter change is only a valid indicator for tension for very small singular changes in neck size.

Tension is the tangential force of the hoop stress in the neck.

The force does not keep getting bigger with more change in diameter. After .002" it has no more force to give. It has reached the yield strength of the brass. Annealing makes the yield strength less, and so the change in neck diameter to reach the limit of elastic deformation is less, and so the neck tension force is less and so the bullet insertion force is less. But hard necks and twice the bullet insertion force probably does not explain beat up bullets.

The insertion force for the bullet is then proportional to: 1) the REAL neck tension, 2) the co efficient of friction between the bullet and the brass, 3) the circumference of the bullet, and any force needed to compress air or powder.

The correct amount to re size a neck is often .002", because you can't get any more tension than that, you can only get more eccentricity and work hardening.

There are a number of threads on SH about ring around the ogive or bullet is stuck in the seater die. These are often fixed by de burring the seater stem mouth. A sharp seater stem mouth can cut into a bullet with ordinary bullet insertion force.

I have been telling Forster to de burr their rough de burring cut on their seating stem mouths for 8 years, and they are still not doing it.

Another thing that can cause it is ball powder.
It has a very high bulk modulus [does not compress easily]
A compressed load of ball powder will beat up the bullet something awful. Compressed powder problems are associated with much more force at the press handle.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I have Hornady dies.

Ok, I just seated a couple bullets into prepped cases and it still left the ring. So as another test I grabbed a few pieces of new brass and chamfered them and seated the bullets and.....no ring! Next, I used a few pieces of new brass, chamfered them and then ran them through my neck sizer die. I seated the bullets and they had rings on them.

So, could my problem be caused by a little too much neck tension AND a batch of soft jacketed bullets? Like I've said, I haven't had this problem before and I've put around 1000 reloads of this receipt through my rifle. Should I possible get a die that has the neck tension bushings so I can reduce the tension?
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
f0310006.jpg

</div></div>

First, I have to ask whether the graph only leans to the right when it is windy, or all the time.

Second, after staring at the graph for 20 minutes I still cannot see where it says to debur the seater.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

Do this... Polish the insides of the fired cases with 0000 steel wool on a bore brush. Then, gently neck size a few cases so that only enough tension is applied to hold the bullets against pushing the cartridge against the bench top. Measure run-out of several rounds until you find one that gives .000 runout. Lube the bullet and case with a good separating lube such as a auto wax. Lube the inside of the seating die with the same lube. Take the seating stem of the die and drill a 1/8th inch hole down the center. Degrease the hole, but leave lube on the outside of the stem. Place the .000 runout loaded round into the case holder and back the seating stem out...run the ram up, then turn the stem in till you feel contact with the bullet.Mark the approximate spot. Back the cartridge out and leave it in the case holder. Remove the stem and fill the cavity in the seating stem with 1 minute epoxy or warm hot glue. Screw the stem back in, less a little bit. Raise the ram, screw the seating stem in until it touches the bullet. Let it cool or cure depending upon what medium you use. You now have a completely custom seating stem that will NOT mark your bullets...unless you let crap build up in the die. JMHO
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
First, I have to ask whether the graph only leans to the right when it is windy, or all the time.

Second, after staring at the graph for 20 minutes I still cannot see where it says to debur the seater. </div></div>

If it leaned to the left, it would have a negative Young's modulus. We are still searching for such a material.

The graph was about some previous post's red herring neck tension that did not make the bullet on the ring.

The burr in the seater stem mouth is probably what cut into the bullet and made the ring.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have Hornady dies.

Ok, I just seated a couple bullets into prepped cases and it still left the ring. So as another test I grabbed a few pieces of new brass and chamfered them and seated the bullets and.....no ring! Next, I used a few pieces of new brass, chamfered them and then ran them through my neck sizer die. I seated the bullets and they had rings on them.

So, could my problem be caused by a little too much neck tension AND a batch of soft jacketed bullets? Like I've said, I haven't had this problem before and I've put around 1000 reloads of this receipt through my rifle. Should I possible get a die that has the neck tension bushings so I can reduce the tension? </div></div>

It could be a combination of both. If you have not had this problem until this batch of bullets then it points to the bullets.

Can you tell any difference between how it feels to seat a bullet in a new case vs prepped? Does the prepped one require more force thus causing the ring? If so, I would go back to the annealing process.

I use a dab of 700F paint on the inside of the neck and center the flame on shoulder/case junction not the shoulder/neck junction. I spin the brass in the holder in my drill in front of the flame until the paint disappears. Usually about a count to 5. Then I polish the inside of the neck with 0000 steelwool on a brush in my drill press to remove any residue.

I used this technique to solve the same problem on a batch of hard Remy brass for my 243, it also gives very consistent FL sizing to bump the shoulders back a .001. Try a few this way, I think you will like the results.

Just a note on Hornady dies...on their FL dies, they usually under size the neck a lot and then pull it back out to dia with the expander ball. It really work hardens the brass and raises neck tension. You can check this by sizing a case without the expander. Surprising what you find sometimes.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I was having this same problem when loading 108gr. Lapua Scenars (6.5 Grendel AR-platform) I was using Forester Competition seater die.

I changed seater die to a Redding and everything is fine.

It wasnt leaving a minor ring it was actually putting a ring indentation around the bullet like the OP's.

I used this die with other 6.5 bullets and no problem but when I tried the 108gr. Scenar = problems. so I just quit using that die all together.

 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If it leaned to the left, it would have a negative Young's modulus.
</div></div>

Which would go better with a good glass of wine: bulk modulus or Young's modulus?
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I had the exact problem with .223. It seemed random at first, but I pinned it down to inconsistent trim lengths. I had the seeter die set to close for a combination seat/crimp. I backed the die out some and deepened the seeting plunger, problem went away completely.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Which would go better with a good glass of wine: bulk modulus or Young's modulus? </div></div>

All I know about wine, I learned from Eric Idle:

Of the sparkling wines, the most famous is Perth Pink. This is a bottle with a message in, and the message is 'beware'. This is not a wine for drinking, this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.

Real emetic fans will also go for a Hobart Muddy, and a prize winning Cuivre Reserve Château Bottled Nuit San Wogga Wogga, which has a bouquet like an aborigine's armpit.

What does it all mean?
If you push a cork into a bottle of wine, and the cork gets a ring cut into it, you may be seating the cork with something sharp.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

What's the Poisson's ratio for that cork?

And could I use that cork as a filler in .600 NE loads that use a fast burning powder like Re 15?
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

You forced me to learn something.
Damn you!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A perfectly incompressible material deformed elastically at small strains would have a Poisson's ratio of exactly 0.5. Most steels and rigid polymers when used within their design limits (before yield) exhibit values of about 0.3, increasing to 0.5 for post-yield deformation (which occurs largely at constant volume.) Rubber has a Poisson ratio of nearly 0.5. Cork's Poisson ratio is close to 0: showing very little lateral expansion when compressed.</div></div>

So the bullet being seated, before yield, does .3 lateral expansion per unit of vertical compression, but seating a cork in a wine bottle gets no lateral expansion before yield.
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

i'd been having same issue with 178 amax.

using wilson dies. was about to buy new dies....

today called sinclair, they had me call wilson.

wilson is sending me replacement vld seater. (warranty/ish)

+1 for sinclair tech line and wilson tech/customer service
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

I had this problem and couldn't figure out what was going on.
Finally, I took my seating die apart and cleaned and lubed it.....
Problem solved! No more ring imprints on the bullets!
Can't believe I didn't do that first.
I had been thinking it was caused by hardening brass or dull chamfer tool...
 
Re: Bullet seater is leaving a ring on the bullet???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
First, I have to ask whether the graph only leans to the right when it is windy, or all the time.

Second, after staring at the graph for 20 minutes I still cannot see where it says to debur the seater. </div></div>

If it leaned to the left, it would have a negative Young's modulus. We are still searching for such a material.

The graph was about some previous post's red herring neck tension that did not make the bullet on the ring

The burr in the seater stem mouth is probably what cut into the bullet and made the ring. </div></div>

Non-Newtonian materials technically have a negative modulus if strain rate is proportional to strain
smile.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

jetjock07
Seating Marks
Replies
21
Views
485
918v
918v
Rocketmandb
Tidbits About Bullet Seating - Mandrels, Neck Lube, etc.
Replies
22
Views
1K
thexman
T
R
Beginner - Ideal Handloading Setup, Process, and Bullet-specific plan?
Replies
11
Views
240
Reformedcitykid
R
G
FL Die Bushing vs No-Bushing
Replies
5
Views
242
GunnyUSMC
G
G
Reloading Purchase List
Replies
26
Views
1K
Islas82
Islas82
Top Bottom
Back