Bullet Selection

[Drewdemon]

I'm shooting longer distances and looking to get into PRS, etc. I’m about a year and a half into reloading and I’ve just burned out my barrel. I’m shooting Hornady 6.5CM 140G ELD-Match rounds; then I reload those with the same bullets (H-4350, etc). With a new barrel, I’ll have to run through load development again. I thought I would buy better brass and try a different bullet. I notice a lot of guys using Berger VLD’s, etc but can’t find any kind of “bullet” comparison, guideline, etc. Is there any guidance, articles, etc out there?

Thanks!

 

[65rpr]

My 6.5cm like's the 130/140 hybrids. They also seem to move faster with the same amount of powder without showing pressure.

 

[Olen_4504]

+1 on the hybrids!

 

[Drewdemon]

How did you come to this conclusion with hybrids? By shooting a lot of different bullets?

 

[Olen_4504]

How did you come to this conclusion with hybrids? By shooting a lot of different bullets?

personally,
i shot factory hornady and factory berger ammo first. my 6.5 when i had it shot the berger so freakin well.

so when i started reloading i bought hybrids.

 

[Supersubes]

How did you come to this conclusion with hybrids? By shooting a lot of different bullets?

You could do that. You could also pick the bullet that gives you the warm fuzzies, confirm it works in your barrel, and run with it.


I personally lean to the Hornady ELD’s. Never chambered a barrel that didn’t like them, regardless of bore size, they’re cheaper than the Bergers, and more readily available. I typically buy them on sale for several bucks per box cheaper than the Berger’s. Nothing at all wrong with the Berger’s. In a custom barrel, either will shoot to the accuracy requirements of the PRS game. If you’re gonna go hard with the matches, settle on something quick, and get to practicing. Endless load developement will not help you place well like practice will.

 

[Shankin McStaby]

I don’t think you’ll go wrong with either bullet. I started with factory 143 ELD-X, my gun liked it, so I reloaded with them. I switched to the 130 Berger Hybrids to try some stuff out, and my gun likes them better.

I’ve noticed that I can push them about 100fps faster, and they seem to be quite a bit less finicky about jump, and you have the added benefit of less recoil (not that anything Creed is a shoulder wrecker anyways). Do you lose a little on the BC? Maybe. If you look at what’s on the boxes, the numbers will be different, but actually shooting it at the range, my wind holds haven’t seemed to change much if at all. Granted, I only have access to a 600yd range at the moment, but I’d be willing to bet that you’d have to get a good bit further to see a diff in wind calls between the two.

 

[Drewdemon]

It seems like trial and error to figure out what works best?

I've been shooting half minute groups at 100 yards but my SD and ex-spread need improvement. Especially since i've been shooting 1k+ yards. For example my SD average is 13 and my ex-spread is around 60fps for approx 30-35 rounds. The ex-spread is having an impact at longer distances. Im hoping that by buying "better" brass/bullets i can improve that. This is all assuming my loading process is good (it's practically a duplicate of the 6.5 guys process). Anyway, that's my hypothesis.

 

[Shankin McStaby]

For sure trial and error will work. If you know that the 140’s work, work up loads for those, and maybe try some flavor of 130 and see what happens. Like I said, I don’t think you can go wrong with either.

Questions about your SD and ES:

First, what’s the load data?

Second, you said your SD is around 13, and your ES is around 60 over 30-35 rounds. How fast are you shooting those 30-35 rounds?

Third: how much time is the round sitting in the chamber before you touch it off?

I ask 2 and 3 because the hotter the barrel gets and the longer you let the round sit in the chamber, the more heat the round pulls out of the barrel, essentially cooking the round. This can lead higher pressures, higher velocities, and bigger numbers in SD and ES.

 

[Drewdemon]

That is a great point. I heard Frank/Mike talk about "cooking" a round during competition but didn't apply that thinking to my regular shooting. I've been working on trigger control and if i had to guess it could be up to 5-6 seconds.
My load is 42.6g
Here is MV data from my last outing;
Average MV of 2,687
High MV; 2715 - Low MV; 2658

 

[Sniper266]

Ill attach something that I've created for bullet comparison. Bullet comparison is tough because every rifle is different and may like certain jump, lower or higher pressures, barrel length and twist rate ect. so in order to really compare bullets you really have to assume a vacuum world. The chart that ive put together is simply to compare the ballistics of selected bullets. I have assumed the velocities out of a 24" barrel using my 8th ed Hornady reloading manual and the max charge weight. You can assume that bullets of the same weight will fire at the same speeds. ive also assumed the standard pressures the AB gives, 1.5" sight height, 8" twist barrel and a 10 mph full value wind.

After making all of these assumptions to standardize the ballistic calculations I have come up with the following document for 6.5 Creedmoor.

Google Drive: Sign-in

Access Google Drive with a Google account (for personal use) or Google Workspace account (for business use).

drive.google.com

The velocities are red because they are assumed, the bullet info is in blue if it is in applied ballistics or I have measured it.

Its not perfected because there are a lot of unaccounted for variables, but it allows you to quickly see how 130's compare to 140's ect

If you can push the 150 SMK's to 2650 fps, you will be supersonic to 1500 yards if the manufacture BC is correct.

 

[Shankin McStaby]

H4350 right?

In the limited times that I’ve put a speedo on H4350, I’ve noticed that I get ~1fps per degree. So at 45* my MV is 2790, but at 75* my MV is 2820. These are obviously outside temps. The longer the round is in the chamber, the more heat it pulls from the barrel, the higher the pressure, velocity blah blah blah.

What I will do when I run the gun, especially when collecting data (speedo, truing, whatever) is get into position, and with the bolt open, get the rifle on target. Relax, take a few breaths, and when I’m ready, close the bolt while exhaling, and when I get to the natural respiratory pause, fire the shot (shouldn’t take more than about 3-5 seconds from bolt close to booger hook pulling the bang switch). If I feel like I sat there too long and the round is cooking, I’ll eject it and start over, letting the ejected round cool. In between rounds, I’ll leave the bolt open.

My load:
6.5 Creed
130 Berger Hybrid
Starline SRP brass
CCI BR primers
42.5gn H4350
2.820” COAL

With this load I’m getting the MV’s I talked about above, with a SD of 7 and an ES of 17. Not as good as some of the other guys loads that I’ve seen on here, but I’m using “cheap” dies, and haven’t played with seating depth yet.

 

[Shankin McStaby]

Ill attach something that I've created for bullet comparison. Bullet comparison is tough because every rifle is different and may like certain jump, lower or higher pressures, barrel length and twist rate ect. so in order to really compare bullets you really have to assume a vacuum world. The chart that ive put together is simply to compare the ballistics of selected bullets. I have assumed the velocities out of a 24" barrel using my 8th ed Hornady reloading manual and the max charge weight. You can assume that bullets of the same weight will fire at the same speeds. ive also assumed the standard pressures the AB gives, 1.5" sight height, 8" twist barrel and a 10 mph full value wind.

After making all of these assumptions to standardize the ballistic calculations I have come up with the following document for 6.5 Creedmoor.

Google Drive: Sign-in

Access Google Drive with a Google account (for personal use) or Google Workspace account (for business use).

drive.google.com

The velocities are red because they are assumed, the bullet info is in blue if it is in applied ballistics or I have measured it.

Its not perfected because there are a lot of unaccounted for variables, but it allows you to quickly see how 130's compare to 140's ect

If you can push the 150 SMK's to 2650 fps, you will be supersonic to 1500 yards if the manufacture BC is correct.

That’s a pretty cool doc you made Snipe. Might have to save that for myself.

 

[Sniper266]

By all means. I have one large document that has 223, 308, 300 win mag, 300 prc, 300 NM, 6.5 creed, 6.5 prc, 338LM and NM, and even 33XC, 37XC that ive calculated so far. In order to be able to quickly compare cartridges and bullets by what can be reasonably assumed. Most people load ammo much hotter then the recommended max, but if you’ve got proven data... then you just add that too!

 

[65rpr]

How did you come to this conclusion with hybrids? By shooting a lot of different bullets?

I have shot about 9 different projectiles threw the same barrel and that's what I've found it likes, might not be the same for another barrel.

 

[Drewdemon]

Thanks everyone. Greatful for the information (and workbook).

 

[Steel head]

I’ve always liked the 142 smk’s but mainly shoot the 140 or 147 ELD-m as they’re cheaper.
Hybrids are easy to load with and always seem to shoot well similar to the 142’s but are expensive.

All four above named bullets I feel are fairly easy to get sorted out without needing to be jammed.