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Bush League From McMillan?

P

Punctilious1

Private
Minuteman
Jun 27, 2017
9
3
Hi everyone. I wanted to get some thoughts on my recent experience ordering my first quality aftermarket stock - a McMillan. Here are the details:

I ordered a custom A3 for my Howa 1500 in 7mm Rem Mag back in December, 2020. My hope was to have it in time for an aoudad hunt in April, 2021. McMillan indicated that it would be cutting it close, but that it was possible. About a month later in January, 2021, McMillan indicated that they needed my credit card info in order to complete the order. They never asked me for it before, and I was somewhat frustrated at the possibility that my order was not "queued" during that month long period, rendering the likelihood of having the stock in time for my April hunt even less likely.

My stock actually arrived April 1, 2021, JUST in time for my trip (I would have a few days to sight in with it, etc). I was thrilled.

McMillan Stock.jpg


I installed it and immediately noticed that the open bolt was contacting the stock comb. The action would not properly cycle rounds from the internal magazine, and the bolt could not be removed for cleaning. Also, the bolt knob was rubbing the stock when cycling. These fitment problems were immediately obvious upon installing the stock, and I was frustrated because it seemed that McMillan didn't even spend 7 minutes to test fitment and do a function check before sending it to me. Unfortunately, the stock was not going to come with me on my trip after all.

McMillan Bolt Contact.jpg

McMillan Bolt Knob Contact.jpg


McMillan customer service was very responsive and helpful. After explaining the issues I observed, they arranged for me to return the stock so that they could fix the issues. I shipped the stock out the next day. This morning, I received the stock back. Basically it looks like they milled out a 1cm groove in the top of the comb to allow the bolt to clear the comb. I haven't installed the stock yet, but I presume that they also sanded the bolt handle notch a bit to fix the rubbing issue there. This repair took 6 weeks. Here is a photo of the fix:
McMillan Fix.jpg


My initial thought is that this is an incredibly "bush league" fix but I wanted to collect some other viewpoints before I decide what to do, if anything. Does anyone have a McMillan A3 with a Howa 1500 LA in it? Is this bush league groove present in your stock comb? Or do I have the dubious honor of having a one of a kind stock here? WDYT?

Thanks everyone!
 
First, that is an A3 sporter and not a regular A3.
Second, that is exactly how stocks with high combs are inletted for the bolt. My McMillans and Manners are all like that.
0CF3E7A2-629F-4D27-9A87-F35521E94E5E.jpeg

Manners EH1
 
Because the amount of contact that that this bolt makes with the comb is quite small, my sense was that the comb shape - the point nearest to the bolt when it is open - could simply be shaped slightly differently to allow for clearance without resorting to such a notch. I understand that I'm talking about a design change and not a "fix", but I thought I bought a custom design.

That said, it sounds like this is not unusual so I have my answer. I'm sure the stock will work well for me. Thanks guys, I appreciate the perspective.
 
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spife7980 said:
I would have just sanded it to fit myself and saved 6 weeks and shipping and you could have taken it on your hunt for 5 minutes with a file.


Also, how is it "custom"
Click to expand...
Yeah, this was certainly an option but honestly I just wanted a close to $1k stock to work well and not be too disfigured by my basement fix haha.

I suppose I'm calling it a custom because that's what McMillan calls it. Maybe it truly isn't, which I think is what you're getting at. Fine. In the end, they sent out a stock with fitment issues, which objectively isn't great, but happens. They fixed it in a manner that sounds like is industry standard, so I have my answer. I'll use it and I'm sure I'll be happy with its performance. Thanks everyone!


McMillan site.png
 
Hi,

So here is something else to consider in regards to the "why and how's" of this type of issue...

The Howa tolerances, more specifically their stacking of tolerances could be the problem as it appears the receiver does not sit far enough forward for the bolt handle to not rub and would cause that bayonet lug to barely contact the cheek comb too....

No way McMillan or any other component manufacturer can account for the entire tolerance stacking spectrum from Howa since nobody outside of Howa QC knows what each parts tolerances are.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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THEIS said:
Hi,

So here is something else to consider in regards to the "why and how's" of this type of issue...

The Howa tolerances, more specifically their stacking of tolerances could be the problem as it appears the receiver does not sit far enough forward for the bolt handle to not rub and would cause that bayonet lug to barely contact the cheek comb too....

No way McMillan or any other component manufacturer can account for the entire tolerance stacking spectrum from Howa since nobody outside of Howa QC knows what each parts tolerances are.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
Good observation. This is certainly a possibility. Only way to really button such a thing up would be to have the barreled action for fitment. McMillan could ask for that if this issue were prevalent, though, but choose not to.
 
Hi,

But then lead times would be over 1 year. IIRC they make production batches of shells and then run the inletting programs for abc mfgs receiver per orders.

Having each persons barreled action to measure and write the inletting programs for it is pretty much impossible. Let alone you would then be paying to have a "1 off" design in which very few are willing to pay that.

The option to get that "1 off" fitment is to order uninletted flat tops from McMillan and have your custom gunsmith inlet it to your barreled action.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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THEIS said:
Hi,

But then lead times would be over 1 year. IIRC they make production batches of shells and then run the inletting programs for abc mfgs receiver per orders.

Having each persons barreled action to measure and write the inletting programs for it is pretty much impossible. Let alone you would then be paying to have a "1 off" design in which very few are willing to pay that.

The option to get that "1 off" fitment is to order uninletted flat tops from McMillan and have your custom gunsmith inlet it to your barreled action.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
Yep; we don't want to make perfection be the enemy of good enough. Look, I get it and I am satisfied now that I have a handful of perspectives on the fix being normal. My first reaction to the repair was that it was not industry standard, but that they were just trying to make the stock work with my rifle - as if I asked them to make a stock I already had on hand (not one that I just ordered) work for a new rifle, etc. If this is exactly what they do for all Howa long actions out of the gate then I have no beef whatsoever.
 
Like was stated above they are inletted for an Howa action, the only thing custom on your stock is you picked the colors that you wanted. Enjoy your stock and just chalk that up to experience.
 
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Steel head said:
That part of putting a bunch of parts together and hoping everything is Gucci.
They aren’t AR15’s.
McMillan is in no way looking bad to me in this story.

OP seems like a drama llama.

I would have just relieved it myself.
Click to expand...
I have multiple Manners T2A's that have the same groove cut. I don't think any of them are deficient in any way because of that.

OP, ask yourself a simple question; How else would YOU get the back of the bolt to clear the comb ? Hint; there's only one answer.

Granted, it is a "utilitarian" fix more than it is a "cosmetic" fix. But, If you come up with a better solution, there's probably a lot of us that'll be "all ears". I'd guess that McMillan and Manners would be interested too.
 
Hunt said:
I don't buy the tolerance stacking argument. Everything is made with CNC today. If it's off .010, that's considerable stacking.
Click to expand...
Nobody who actually works in manufacturing gives a shit if you buy the tolerance stacking argument or not.

I'm sitting here looking at components drawings for a shaft from one of the world's largest makers of gas turbine engines and most of the tolerances are ± .002".

LOL holding that on fiberglass.............but do tell us how many parts you make a year on "CNC"

You don't know what you're talking about.
 
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Punctilious1 said:
Good observation. This is certainly a possibility. Only way to really button such a thing up would be to have the barreled action for fitment. McMillan could ask for that if this issue were prevalent, though, but choose not to.
Click to expand...
LRI offers this exact service using your barreled action. They fixture the barreled action and touch a bunch of points, then import the resulting shape into another machine that cuts the inlet on your stock.
 
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Punctilious1 said:
Yep; we don't want to make perfection be the enemy of good enough.
Click to expand...

Hi,

You have a $600 barreled action so you have about as "perfect" as you are going to get in that price range.

To expect "perfection" on the same level as a multi thousand dollar system is unrealistic.

When we increase our expectations we typically must increase our costs and vice versa....lower our cost we must lower our expectations.

As you mentioned....Just enjoy what you have and hope you have success on all your hunts.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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THEIS said:
Hi,

You have a $600 barreled action so you have about as "perfect" as you are going to get in that price range.

To expect "perfection" on the same level as a multi thousand dollar system is unrealistic.

When we increase our expectations we typically must increase our costs and vice versa....lower our cost we must lower our expectations.

As you mentioned....Just enjoy what you have and hope you have success on all your hunts.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
This is 100% correct. That's why I'm paying $750 for inletting and bedding, I want it absolutely correct the 1st time. At $750, it fuckin-A better be flawless.
 
They could have at least re-painted the area.
I guess the color pattern isn't 'molded in' like some literature suggests.
 
And this is why I don't fuck around with fiberglass stocks much any more.
 
Threadcutter308 said:
I have multiple Manners T2A's that have the same groove cut. I don't think any of them are deficient in any way because of that.

OP, ask yourself a simple question; How else would YOU get the back of the bolt to clear the comb ? Hint; there's only one answer.

Granted, it is a "utilitarian" fix more than it is a "cosmetic" fix. But, If you come up with a better solution, there's probably a lot of us that'll be "all ears". I'd guess that McMillan and Manners would be interested too.
Click to expand...
The standard grove the do is quite functional.
 
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RayDBonz said:
They could have at least re-painted the area.
I guess the color pattern isn't 'molded in' like some literature suggests.
Click to expand...
They did repaint it green. The shell is what contains the color in the mold. Then the inside is stuffed with fill. If they cut into the shell like they did it exposes the off white colored fill. That’s why they put green paint over it.
 
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Did anybody else but me notice the OP was happy with the result, after learning this was the way it was typically done?
He thanked everyone for their perspective, realized it was done the way it was supposed to be done and has apparently moved on with his life.
 
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Steel head said:
OP seems like a drama llama.

I would have just relieved it myself.
Click to expand...
LOL! I'm definitely going to be using this phrase in the future. Sorry if I came off (or was) that way...

fdkay said:
Did anybody else but me notice the OP was happy with the result, after learning this was the way it was typically done?
He thanked everyone for their perspective, realized it was done the way it was supposed to be done and has apparently moved on with his life.
Click to expand...
This, more or less. :cool:

Just so y'all have the exact figures, the stock cost $790, shipped. McMillan did not charge me for the grove enhancement but the invoice accompanying does indicate that that it would have been a $124 job in case any of you'd like to order one up for your stocks. Maybe a groove costs more, I don't know.

In all seriousness I was just kinda surprised that McMillan just makes a gouge in the comb rather than have a slightly differently molded comb for long actions where more space is needed. It's not like long actions are some rare unicorn and never ordered. But I guess McMillan has determined that might result in elevated pricing (or less margin) and that McMillan has used its business judgment.
 
THEIS said:
Hi,

But then lead times would be over 1 year. IIRC they make production batches of shells and then run the inletting programs for abc mfgs receiver per orders.

Having each persons barreled action to measure and write the inletting programs for it is pretty much impossible. Let alone you would then be paying to have a "1 off" design in which very few are willing to pay that.

The option to get that "1 off" fitment is to order uninletted flat tops from McMillan and have your custom gunsmith inlet it to your barreled action.

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...


@LongRifles Inc. seems to be the place for this custom scanning and metal specific stock work.

Im am currently having this done to a $150 wood stock that was already inletted.

1621678746459.png


1621678777692.png


They will refill with structural material and custom cut based on scans of the BA and the LRI DBM I want installed.

Tried to find the videos of the scanning/inletting work its mesmerizing.

I still dont know what I'm thinking by doing this with the stock I have chosen but hey.....its only money....but if it works a magazine fed M40 with a left hand gain twist will be a rare bird.

Eagerly anticipating my next LRITracker as it should be delicious.
 
Last edited:
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Punctilious1 said:
LOL! I'm definitely going to be using this phrase in the future. Sorry if I came off (or was) that way...


This, more or less. :cool:

Just so y'all have the exact figures, the stock cost $790, shipped. McMillan did not charge me for the grove enhancement but the invoice accompanying does indicate that that it would have been a $124 job in case any of you'd like to order one up for your stocks. Maybe a groove costs more, I don't know.

In all seriousness I was just kinda surprised that McMillan just makes a gouge in the comb rather than have a slightly differently molded comb for long actions where more space is needed. It's not like long actions are some rare unicorn and never ordered. But I guess McMillan has determined that might result in elevated pricing (or less margin) and that McMillan has used its business judgment.
Click to expand...


The groove was the answer even in the day of walnut stocks with high combs.

Its not just long actions that require "grooving".....shorties run into the problem also.
 
Punctilious1 said:
Because the amount of contact that that this bolt makes with the comb is quite small, my sense was that the comb shape - the point nearest to the bolt when it is open - could simply be shaped slightly differently to allow for clearance without resorting to such a notch. I understand that I'm talking about a design change and not a "fix", but I thought I bought a custom design.

That said, it sounds like this is not unusual so I have my answer. I'm sure the stock will work well for me. Thanks guys, I appreciate the perspective.
Click to expand...
I have 2 old Remington 40x stocks that have cutouts like that.
 
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Punctilious1 said:
In all seriousness I was just kinda surprised that McMillan just makes a gouge in the comb rather than have a slightly differently molded comb for long actions where more space is needed. It's not like long actions are some rare unicorn and never ordered. But I guess McMillan has determined that might result in elevated pricing (or less margin) and that McMillan has used its business judgment.
Click to expand...

Some people might put their cheek there. Nothing more to it.

Also, it is absolutely disgusting of you to come in here and post all this without a picture of the complete rifle. Shameful.
 
Last edited:
Twinsen said:
Some people might put their cheek there. Nothing more to it.

Also, it is absolutely disgusting of you to come in here and post all this without a picture of the complete rifle. Shameful.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct - I apologize! Here she is. It's a 7mm Rem Mag:


Howa w McMillan Stock.jpg
 
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Steel head said:
That part of putting a bunch of parts together and hoping everything is Gucci.
They aren’t AR15’s.
McMillan is in no way looking bad to me in this story.

OP seems like a drama llama.

I would have just relieved it myself.
Click to expand...
He had an issue, asked the question, and accepted the answer. No whining, no complaining, hes not being dramatic at all.
(If it were me, that 6 week fix wouldve irked me. I had a small issue w/ a Manners and they had it corrected and installed a minichassis in much less time).
 
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