Bushing or Non-Bushing dies

[Outlaw45]

I've been reloading for awhile, started with basic RCBS dies and as my level of accuracy increased I moved to Redding S-type bushing dies because I thought they were better. Never had a problem with either. Now I've started looking into getting a 22 Creedmoor and listening to what others have been using as far as bullets, brass, and dies. The topic of a ring of carbon on the brass came up. I believe the person said bushing dies failed to size the brass completely and left a ring of carbon on the neck/shoulder area and was giving him trouble chambering.

Never thought about it before but I guess the bushing would most likely be chamfered a little to allow the neck to enter into the bushing. This would prohibit the brass form being fully sized and could cause some inconsistencies when chambering the round.

True? Thought?

 

[918v]

I prefer body dies coupled with collet neck dies.

Bushing dies, unless everything is perfect and you have a concentric bushing, suck.

 

[spife7980]

Yes, a bushing leaves a "donut" at the base of the neck due to the bevel but thats not what a carbon ring is. It shouldnt prohibit chambering.

Lots like the unsized portion as they think it also helps center the case in the chamber. It also keeps the thicker shoulder material that migrates forward from causing a real donut of thicker brass in the neck that pinches the bullet at the base. You can see it here in the middle and the right to varying extremes, its no big deal.

A carbon ring is in front of the brass in the throat where the bullet sits and the fire cooks it to the steel effectively narrowing the throat and pinching the bullet. Your friend needs to learn a bit more and teach a bit less.

 

[30cal user]

non bushing and use mandrel as last step before priming/seating....whidden himself uses non bushing and expander ball

 

[Outlaw45]

A carbon ring is in front of the brass in the throat where the bullet sits and the fire cooks it to the steel effectively narrowing the throat and pinching the bullet. Your friend needs to learn a bit more and teach a bit less.

Not a friend, just read that in a forum.

 

[Outlaw45]

I haven't got into turning necks or anything, usually full length size. Should I stay away from bushing dies? I know the bushing is to control your neck tenison but am I worrying about it too much? I usually use brass from Hornady, LC, Winchester, and now Peterson.

 

[spife7980]

You’re worrying about it to much. That said I went with the cheap Hornady dies with the micrometer top add on for my 22 creed As I wasn’t sure if it’s something I wanted to jump into too deeply. They work perfectly fine for me.

Here is what they sized down to with alpha brass if you care to compare to whatever your reamer and brass choice would be.

 

[straightshooter1]

I've been reloading for awhile, started with basic RCBS dies and as my level of accuracy increased I moved to Redding S-type bushing dies because I thought they were better. Never had a problem with either. Now I've started looking into getting a 22 Creedmoor and listening to what others have been using as far as bullets, brass, and dies. The topic of a ring of carbon on the brass came up. I believe the person said bushing dies failed to size the brass completely and left a ring of carbon on the neck/shoulder area and was giving him trouble chambering.

Never thought about it before but I guess the bushing would most likely be chamfered a little to allow the neck to enter into the bushing. This would prohibit the brass form being fully sized and could cause some inconsistencies when chambering the round.

True? Thought?

A "carbon ring" is really not related to what a bushing die may or may not do. Carbon rings form in front of the case mouth in the chamber as rounds are fired. Over time, this carbon ring can build up and pinch a bullet IF the case neck is longer than usual and pushed into that ring when the cartridge is chambered. If cases are not trimmed after a few firings, they typically grow in length each time they're sized and that extra length along with a substantial carbon ring that's built up can effect accuracy and, not so usual, can result in high pressure signs. Carbon rings should be cleaned out when one is cleaning their bore.

Bushings do tend to leave a donut around the base of the neck at the junction of neck and shoulder. Also, bushings typically will induce runout. This can easily be tested if one has a concentricity gauge and measure the neck before and after running a case through the sizing die. For many people concentricity is not something to be concerned over because of the type of shooting they do. But, if one is a "precision" shooter, it can be a BIG issue.

I don't use bushing dies as I prefer non-bushing sizing dies and have used a system that give me the best possible cartridges that are as consistent as possible. Yeah . . . I'm a little anal about it.

 

[Outlaw45]

Thanks now I understand.

 

[Threerun]

A "carbon ring" is really not related to what a bushing die may or may not do. Carbon rings form in front of the case mouth in the chamber as rounds are fired. Over time, this carbon ring can build up and pinch a bullet IF the case neck is longer than usual and pushed into that ring when the cartridge is chambered. If cases are not trimmed after a few firings, they typically grow in length each time they're sized and that extra length along with a substantial carbon ring that's built up can effect accuracy and, not so usual, can result in high pressure signs. Carbon rings should be cleaned out when one is cleaning their bore.

Bushings do tend to leave a donut around the base of the neck at the junction of neck and shoulder. Also, bushings typically will induce runout. This can easily be tested if one has a concentricity gauge and measure the neck before and after running a case through the sizing die. For many people concentricity is not something to be concerned over because of the type of shooting they do. But, if one is a "precision" shooter, it can be a BIG issue.

I don't use bushing dies as I prefer non-bushing sizing dies and have used a system that give me the best possible cartridges that are as consistent as possible. Yeah . . . I'm a little anal about it.

I'm still a novice reloader and I went with the bushing dies. I do check case neck concentricity with a Sinclair gauge before running into the bushing die and have found the die does not induce run-out (in my reloads). I make sure the bushing is loose fit and can hear the bushing rattle a bit. I'm using a MEC Marksman press- so the shell holder can move around a tad and the bushing can move a tad- all in hopes of the case 'centering'. Where I do get my run-out is in the seating process. On average it's .002 but I've seen as high as .008 on occasion.

I'm curious on exactly how that bushing would induce run-out. Not asking for a detailed response or anything, but you've now given me yet another thing to ponder on.. Dammit.

 

[straightshooter1]

I'm still a novice reloader and I went with the bushing dies. I do check case neck concentricity with a Sinclair gauge before running into the bushing die and have found the die does not induce run-out (in my reloads). I make sure the bushing is loose fit and can hear the bushing rattle a bit. I'm using a MEC Marksman press- so the shell holder can move around a tad and the bushing can move a tad- all in hopes of the case 'centering'. Where I do get my run-out is in the seating process. On average it's .002 but I've seen as high as .008 on occasion.

I'm curious on exactly how that bushing would induce run-out. Not asking for a detailed response or anything, but you've now given me yet another thing to ponder on.. Dammit.

I too use a Sinclair Concentricity Gauge. Always good to hear that someone's bushing die works well for them. And apparently, you're using it as it should be in making sure it's a "loose fit".

I feel there's a number of factors that would cause a bushing die to induce run-out. And I think that is the very reason there so many reports of that issue. In my case, I'm not sure exactly why my bushing dies induce runout as I couldn't find a solution, though the expander balls were a big part of it, and decided to take a different path rather than fight it. Now I use a non bushing sizing die without an expander ball then use an expander mandrel to set the neck to the tension I want. Now, I may get a neck runout of no more .0005 (fired brass always having less than .0005).

BTW: unless your turning your necks it's no surprise to me that you get that kind of runout on your seating process. Neck thickness having variations (maybe like .0015) get pushed to the inside of the neck by the busing where the seating of the bullet has to deal with those variation and produces the kind of results you said you get. Of course, my non-bushing die does the same thing, but I turn necks so there's no thickness variation issue.

 

[Threerun]

I too use a Sinclair Concentricity Gauge. Always good to hear that someone's bushing die works well for them. And apparently, you're using it as it should be in making sure it's a "loose fit".

I feel there's a number of factors that would cause a bushing die to induce run-out. And I think that is the very reason there so many reports of that issue. In my case, I'm not sure exactly why my bushing dies induce runout as I couldn't find a solution, though expander the balls were a big part of it, and decided to take a different path rather than fight it. Now I use a non bushing sizing die without an expander ball then use an expander mandrel to set the neck to the tension I want. Now, I may get a neck runout of no more .0005 (fired brass always having less than .0005).

BTW: unless your turning your necks it's no surprise to me that you get that kind of runout on your seating seating process. Neck thickness having variations (maybe like .0015) get pushed to the inside of the neck by the busing where the seating of the bullet has to deal with those variation and produces the kind of results you said you get. Of course, my non-bushing die does the same thing, but I turn necks so there's not thickness variation issue.

I remove the expander from the die. I run all my cases through a Sinclair de-capping die. That may be the difference between what you and I are seeing. I have not trimmed necks, and I'm not sure I want to go there, lol.

 

[ABC1000]

A lot of conflicting information out there... seems like a lot of people on this thread are promoting neck turning but feels that the industry is moving (largely) away from turning necks but is heavily moving/moved to FL sizing with a bushing die + .002”.
I’ve been considering Bushing die(with or without a mandrel) for quite a while and have only full length sized and do that on all my cartridges/calibers. I mostly use Forster dies but have some Redding’s and a couple others but I’m usually only getting a couple thousandths of runout (some only .001 and have been pretty lucky finding accuracy with most of my guns with my systems.
I’ve almost come to the conclusion that there’s usually more ways to skin a cat on this issue... some guys swear by neck turning but a ton of the elite f-class guys swear you shouldn’t do it... and then some blind squirrels like me are finding a nut here and there only FL sizing??
I’m trying to find a good bushing die (.251 or .252) for 22 CM and give it a shot but I’m almost back to just doing what I’ve always done...

 

[ABC1000]

I got a response from Dthomas3523 but don’t see it here on the thread not sure why?

I’d love some help determining what I need.

I appreciate the feedback. As much as I reload I’ve never been down this road before and as much as I’ve read, watched and talked to guys I’m really a hands on learner myself. I think I’m sold on the mandrel (instead of bushing dies) but I have 3 questions:

1- do I still the standard FL sizing die? If not, then what do I need?
2- how do I determine which size mandrel I need? I’ve got a mic for measuring neck thickness but is the process any different (I know a mandrel is different than a bushing in a sizing die but I mean size of mandrel vs bushing is different right?) for a mandrel than a bushing? Seems like it is as the mandrel seem to be wider dimension.
3- was going to get 21st century mandrel but how do I determine what I need for 22 CM? Alpha brass and was looking for a .251-2.52” bushing if that helps.

I’m just not sure what exact equipment I need as far as mandrel size etc...

 

[straight-shooter]

Measure the outside dimension of the neck with a loaded round. Subtract .002 and you have your bushing size. The mandrel Sinclair sells is .001 less than bullet diameter for expanding and .002 less for neck turning. Exception is the carbide mandrels for expanding are also .002 less.

 

[ABC1000]

Thanks straight-shooter!

 

[FLIGHT762]

I bought the Redding bushing dies in 308 Win., F/L die, N/O die, comp. mic. seater and 5 TiN bushings. Probably $350.00 in dies & bushings. Makes pretty good ammo.

Because I have more disposable income than I used to have, I bought a Lee Collet N/O die and a Redding body die to try out and test. The Collet die & body die made just as accurate ammo as the bushing dies do and a much lower cost. I still used the Redding micro seating die since it is a good seating die.

I could have saved a bit of money by just going with the Lee Collet die, Body die & micro seating die.

When I wanted to upgrade my 223 dies, I bought a Lee collet die, Redding body die & a Hornady seating die W/ the micro seater.

I don't think I'll buy any more bushing dies.

For all around ammo, I bought a Mighty Armory 223 & 308 Win. F/L sizing die and sold off all of my old, regular, RCBS & Forster F/L 223 & 308 dies. The Might Armory F/L dies are very different than other dies and they make very concentric ammo. I do think they are worth the money.

I do have the Sinclair mandrel die & I use the TiN 12st Century expander mandrels.

 

[straight-shooter]

My take on this is when I was tuning a load for my newly acquired 6.5 creedmoor rifle I went through the normal regimen. Tune the powder charge, tune the oal and finally I needed to find a neck tension because i still wasn't happy with the chronograph numbers although they were in the teens. I was FL sizing/bumping and even ran them through the neck size die and was ending up with .0025 neck tension. This was all with just a standard FL die. I purchased a bushing FL die and mandrel die. When I FL sized with the bushing then pushed the mandrel to .0015 neck tension suddenly I was getting single digit on both SD & ES.

I may just have stumbled on it and got lucky but i can say this.... Ain't Changin' a Thing.