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Advanced Marksmanship By-passing Formal Training?

Sterling Shooter

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 10, 2004
2,842
28
Louisville, Kentucky
In my occupation I run into folks every day who want to get into LR shooting. They've seen programs on Cable TV about shooting which have inspired them to look into getting a long range rifle outfit. These folks typically do not have any basic marksmanship training; yet, they don't think there's a need for it. In their mind, good shooting is just about putting the reticle of a powerful scope on the target and pulling the trigger. Thing is, these folks, if they do indeed get into it, will start their journey in F-Class; and, after their initiation, will undoubtedly perceive, with a better understanding about wind, they'd have it made. I find this as interesting as it is comical, since these folks, actually knowing nothing about good shooting, mistakenly attribute all of their errors to the wind getting them. At any rate, these are just some observations I've had on the matter. Being deceived from the start, I don't think these folks I'm describing are likely to ever reach the highest plateaus. It's why I also think F-Class promoters would be wise to offer clinics to the beginning F-Class shooter. Folks getting into HP have such clinics, and, with a basis of understanding, actually have a chance to succeed. Perhaps there are others here who have contemplated what I've noticed and have a thought or two about it. Seems to me, any sport organizer who does not support the participants basis of understanding about how-to-do-it is not doing his job.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

You make a good point. I've known people who took up golfing and assumed that buying a really costly ste of clubs ensures success.

I think maybe the situaiton is self-correcting though. Once a guy or gal tries long range shooting, or ANY type of shooting for that matter, if he or she does not get the results they envisioned, I think the more astute ones begin to talk to fellow shooters and find out WHY.

The msot interesting (and humorous) situaiton I have personally been involved in concerns hadngun shooting - a discipline in which after many years and much research, i am finally decent, if still slow on speed.

I was at a gun range where my "neighbor" was a police officer who was clearly doing his "required", involuntary practice in order to pass an upcoming proficiency test. I watched him shoot his 9mm for several minutes while I set up my station. His attitude and technique both were not great, and it showed in his results.

I finally got started on my own shooting, using a tiny (sub officer size) custom Fred Craig "Omen" in 38 Super. I knew that gun really well, and fired off several 5-shot groups, at 25 yards, that were sub 2.5 inches, and 1 under 1.5 inches.

My neighbor watched in fascination, then shook his head, packed up his gear, and left. Another neighbor nearby had a different reaction - he came over, asked about both the gun and my technique, and we talked a while about both.

No quesiton in my mind which of those 2 shooting neighbors ultimately became a better shooter.

These days, I am trying to learn long distance precision rifle shooting, so I am in the role of the learner.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

I wouldn't necessarily completely agree about formal training. Reason being is some people simple cannot afford it as the money required to take formal training would take a lot of money away from spending any substantial time behind a rifle.

Using the scenario stated by Jim above I actually took up golf and bought a nice set. I was awful at first but have improved leaps and bounds...granted before I bought my stuff I knew it wasn't something I was just gonna give up. I also understood the game and was a person able to put my ego aside when I screwed up and understand it was myself and not blame it on outside factors. I analyzed what I did wrong and studied how to correct it and did so. I didn't improve as fast as someone who may have had formal training but I did improve substantially.

Seeing that I just had a child I have not had the funds to take a formal training sessions or class. Would I love to of course. But doesn't mean I am any less serious than another shooter but unfortunately my situation has dictated that I learn on my own on the fly via this website and a lot of reading. I am just trying to save money so that I can improve my platform.

I think it really depends on the mindset of the person entering into the venture.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems to me, any sport organizer who does not support the participants basis of understanding about how-to-do-it is not doing his job. </div></div>Providing matches for accomplished shooters and providing training for novices are two aspects of sport that rarely meet.

The path that one chooses is less important than being open-minded enough to take the next step forward.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

A good instructor can save a beginner a lot of time and money in improving technique - and some lessons simply cannot be learned without an outside observer.

We had a VERY experienced and successful military competition shooter here for training who learned the limitations of the technique he was using - and who made major changes to the way he was shooting. Sometimes things which work in one set of circumstances work less well in another.

And I learned something this morning that immediately improved my pistol shooting - and I expect will do so even more as I learn to better apply it. It was something that makes perfect sense once explained and learned - and I never would have figured out myself. I was not a bad pistol shooter before - but am now better.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

Who became the better gunfighter or gun fight survivor ?

I used to chuckle about all the cops, feds, etc that couldn't shoot paper very well. Trade out the paper, and well lit range for a dim room, no ear protection, and a thug with a high cap magazine pistol. Then get back to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No quesiton in my mind which of those 2 shooting neighbors ultimately became a better shooter.

Jim G </div></div>
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

Never had formal training but I've soaked up a lot of information over the years. I've had some excellent shooters provide quality advice. Once I made up my mind to actually take the advice I was better off.

Lindy......Care to share?
"And I learned something this morning that immediately improved my pistol shooting - and I expect will do so even more as I learn to better apply it. It was something that makes perfect sense once explained and learned - and I never would have figured out myself. I was not a bad pistol shooter before - but am now better."
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to chuckle about all the cops, feds, etc that couldn't shoot paper very well. Trade out the paper, and well lit range for a dim room, no ear protection, and a thug with a high cap magazine pistol. Then get back to me</div></div>

Reminds me of a story related in the book "Secrets of Mental Marksmanship" by Linda Miller and Keith Cunningham.

Seems a State Trooper pulled over a car and the driver came out of the car with a shot gun, blasting the Trooper in the chest with a load of buck shot. The next thing the trooper remembered was changing magazines scanning left and right. The bandit was laying against the car, stitched from belt buckle to throat with 7 45 rounds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't necessarily completely agree about formal training. Reason being is some people simple cannot afford it as the money required to take formal training would take a lot of money away from spending any substantial time behind a rifle.</div></div>

I'm not buying that one either. It could be done and "no or very little cost".

The CMP puts on GSM Clinics for both vintage rifles and small bore sporting rifle. They charge very little, mostly for the ammo they furnish. CMP funds its shooting program by the sales of surplus rifles and quipment, not charging participents of their schools.

Same with High Power Clinics. Most State Clubs put on the clinics for little or no cost. (I don't charge for the clinics I put on).

Why can't Clubs, NRA, and/or the CMP put on F-Class clinics.

As to equipment:

In "On Combat" Lt.Col. Dave Grossman says, "in the end, its not about the hardware, it is about the software". Amateurs talk about hardware (equipment); professionals talk about the software (training and mental readiness)"

 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

Appleseed shoots are another option for people to get the basics. They are all over.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RagnarDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Appleseed shoots are another option for people to get the basics. They are all over.</div></div>

The Appleseed Project is, it seems, all over; and, over all, I think it can get a hunter or plinker off to a good start. It is no substitute however for the sort of training needed for a beginning shooter who wants to get good results at LR, it wasn't meant to be. Still, I'm glad the Appleseed Project is out there. It serves a market NRA and CMP programs, it appears, have not addressed as enthusiastically.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why can't Clubs, NRA, and/or the CMP put on F-Class clinics. </div></div>

I know CRC here in CO doesn't allow for training but they do allow for matches. So realistically speaking you can host any number of matches given the Club's schedule but if you want to put on any training they don't allow it, <span style="font-style: italic">(unless it is free)</span>

I am going to try and speak to the board again, but I know during the week there is no one there most days and when I inquired about putting on a few small classes, 3 days, 1 a quarter they said no thank you. So clearly there is a disconnect between "competition" and "classes" this was even offered with kick-back to the club, discounts for club members, to entice them and still they declined. The only "clinics" I have heard of taking place were in fact free.

in the end I was told to try pitching the idea again to the entire board, after helping a board member get on target during a match. Many of the competitors were asked about having a clinic and the answer was basically, they don't allow it. They consider it a commercial endeavor, which I don't quite see the difference between a match with fees and a clinic with the same. But that is the mindset I encountered.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used to chuckle about all the cops, feds, etc that couldn't shoot paper very well. Trade out the paper, and well lit range for a dim room, no ear protection, and a thug with a high cap magazine pistol. Then get back to me</div></div>

Reminds me of a story related in the book "Secrets of Mental Marksmanship" by Linda Miller and Keith Cunningham.

Seems a State Trooper pulled over a car and the driver came out of the car with a shot gun, blasting the Trooper in the chest with a load of buck shot. The next thing the trooper remembered was changing magazines scanning left and right. The bandit was laying against the car, stitched from belt buckle to throat with 7 45 rounds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't necessarily completely agree about formal training. Reason being is some people simple cannot afford it as the money required to take formal training would take a lot of money away from spending any substantial time behind a rifle.</div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">I'm not buying that one either. It could be done and "no or very little cost".</span>

The CMP puts on GSM Clinics for both vintage rifles and small bore sporting rifle. They charge very little, mostly for the ammo they furnish. CMP funds its shooting program by the sales of surplus rifles and quipment, not charging participents of their schools.

Same with High Power Clinics. Most State Clubs put on the clinics for little or no cost. (I don't charge for the clinics I put on).

Why can't Clubs, NRA, and/or the CMP put on F-Class clinics.

As to equipment:

In "On Combat" Lt.Col. Dave Grossman says, "in the end, its not about the hardware, it is about the software". Amateurs talk about hardware (equipment); professionals talk about the software (training and mental readiness)"

</div></div>

Well if I am correct, I believe at least in my area, if I would like to take one of those clinics I would have to join the local club at which they hold them (and then I would have to speak with the club to get them to speak with the CMP to convince them to hold a clinic...could be wrong on that one). One of the clubs is like a $300 fee and their range is tiny. Another club uses a public range but the club states they do not hold any clinics though they are CMP affiliated. So unless I join a club that has a tiny range (and have not heard glowing reviews of them) and pay money that I could use on ammo or continuing to improve my platform I don't have much options close to me. I could take classes that I know sponsors on here hold in Florida but most would require subsctantial amounts of money in travel, lodging, ammo and the fees. Granted I would absolutely love to take one but RIGHT NOW I just can't swing it and don't see it happening for a year or two. Though things could change.

I need to look into Appleseed as I have been meaning to for the last year or so but things have been hectic with the birth of my first born. Also I have been meaning to also do some IDPA and they hold a Carbine competition weeknights down near me on which I could work on continuing to improve my basic marksmanship. However, though the range is close to my house it is a pretty decent drive from my office and IPDA and the Carbine events are on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I think those are my best options and I do need to just jump in and go to those.

Trust me I need to make at least some adjustments to my rifle lol. I basically have a bone stock 700 SPS Tactical with Hogue stock. I mean I am proficient with it but in order to get more I know I will need to change the stock, bed it etc. I just got into long range so I am just finding my way. It just so happens as soon as I chose to venture into it, my wife got pregnant and we now have a 2 month old daughter now which has not been conducive to me being able to spend the time and money I had originally planned lol. I am sure over the next year things will settle down a little bit and things may work a little better then.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

Here is the CMP requirments for conducting a GSM Clinic (and/or match)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">REQUIREMENTS FOR MATCH AND CLINIC SPONSORS. Organizations that sponsor CMP-Sanctioned Clinics or Matches must fulfill these requirements:
1. Be currently affiliated with the CMP in “good” status.

2. Pay a $20.00 fee (plus $5.00 for shipping and handling) to the CMP for each sanctioned event. Sponsors may charge individual entry fees to match and clinic participants to cover their expenses in conducting the match or clinic.

3. Attach a copy of a match or clinic program with the application when it is submitted. A program is a written description of the event with information such as an event description, date, location, schedule and course of fire, entry fees, etc.

4. Conduct the match in accordance with current CMP Competition Rules. The CMP rulebook is posted on the CMP web site at http://www.thecmp.org/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf. Copies of the rules may be downloaded for free or printed copies may be purchased from CMP for $3.00 each.

5. Provide qualified range officers, instructors, other officials, targets and other supplies as required for the conduct of the match or clinic.

6. Obtain and retain on file a notarized Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement for all match and clinic participants. A copy of the Eligibility Affidavit and Liability Agreement is located on the CMP web site at http://www.thecmp.org/Competitions/Forms/Affidavit.pdf. These forms are required by the federal law that established the CMP.

7. Submit a CMP Sanctioned Match or Clinic Report and the scorecards of all competitors who fired in any sanctioned match to the CMP within seven days after the match.</div></div>

The only CMP "required" payment is $20 + $5 or $25. You can split the cost with competitors/attendees or eat the cost (Like I do).

Yes you do have to have a CMP Club sponser the event, but thats it, just add their name. You don't have to use their range, you just need a safe place to shoot 100 or 200 yards.

The exceptions is the Achievement pins, ($1 each) if you add a match to your club. And, if you want to furnish the ammo. ('06 & 22 is all they provide).

In reality, you can conduct the Clinic for $25. You must use ECI or the little yellow empty chamber indicators. You may have to buy those, that would add another $12.

I got our club CMP Affiliated. With that they (me) can sponcer a Clinic anywhere, somebody else's range, or someones back yard.

Cost is not really a factor. Its desire. Lets say you have a half dozzen people who want to attend a clinic, You have to come up with probably $37 ($20 + 5 shipping and handling, and $12 for the ECIs) Thats 6.17 per shooter. Not unreasonable.

If you're club doesn't have a GSM Master Instructor, CMP keeps a list, contact them for one in your area. He would be glad to conduct a clinic.

If you want to get one started, PM me and I'll send you a copy of our Program and Bulletin. Or any other information you might want.

Cost isnt really a factor in CMP events.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

Ok maybe I just didn't understand it correctly then...will have to look into it. For $25 would be good to do it. See if I can do one sometime at Markham Park Range which is pretty close to my house here in FL
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

Sterling, I find your comments on the mark. I decided to see how far I could shoot by buying a gun/scope. Results are less than spectacular. Have started going back to iron sights, hard to pull tigger,and no samdbags just to reinforce lessons learned through the NRA jr. smallbore course 40yrs ago. Can't seem to get as low as I remember in siiting position though.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jAXDIALATION</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who became the better gunfighter or gun fight survivor ?

I used to chuckle about all the cops, feds, etc that couldn't shoot paper very well. Trade out the paper, and well lit range for a dim room, no ear protection, and a thug with a high cap magazine pistol. Then get back to me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No quesiton in my mind which of those 2 shooting neighbors ultimately became a better shooter.

Jim G </div></div> </div></div>

In a stressful situation, your body, AT BEST, does what it got used to doing in training. If what you did in training was inadequate, you are unlikely to do better in that stressful situation where your skills degrade because of the stress. That does not rule out your falling apart under stress DESPITE good training, but at least with good training, you have a CHANCE to do well. Without it, you're dreaming if you think the stress will make you better.
smile.gif


Jim G
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a F-Class shooter and have never had any formal training. I do ok. </div></div>

I'm not saying you one of them, but a lot of shooters that haven't had training don't even know what they don't know, and it's not until one attends training that one learns it.
It's about building a foundation. Yeah one can go through the motions or 'shooting' but there's SOOO much more to it than just getting behind the rifle and pulling the trigger.

IMO to each his own. What I have a problem with is with the people that don't have training, are doing things wrong but try to give that bad advice to other new shooters. That just get's under my skin.

IMO it's all about attitude and mindset.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a F-Class shooter and have never had any formal training. I do ok. </div></div>

I'm not saying you one of them, but a lot of shooters that haven't had training don't even know what they don't know, and it's not until one attends training that one learns it.
It's about building a foundation. Yeah one can go through the motions or 'shooting' but there's SOOO much more to it than just getting behind the rifle and pulling the trigger.

IMO to each his own. What I have a problem with is with the people that don't have training, are doing things wrong but try to give that bad advice to other new shooters. That just get's under my skin.

IMO it's all about attitude and mindset.</div></div>

You see it as I do.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

I rather suspect David (DGosnell) knows what he's doing. Before stating that a lot of non-formally trained F-Class shooters are probably not even be aware of what they don't know, you might take a look at this:

http://usfclass.com/members/2009/20

The bottom line is like most everything else. There are some people that will benefit greatly from formal training, and some that will not. Clearly there are also individuals that are talented and motivated enough to do very well without it. Would these individuals constitute a majority? Highly unlikely, but they obviously exist, demonstrating that high-level shooting performance can be reached without formalized training.

Personally, I would like to see more long distance markmanship training (at all levels) made accessible than there currently seems to be. Of course, that would require the sponsoring individuals' time/effort, as well as some amount of $$$. I haven't found the cost of such programs to be an issue. However, the time involved can be, particularly if extensive travel is involved.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why can't Clubs, NRA, and/or the CMP put on F-Class clinics. </div></div>

I know CRC here in CO doesn't allow for training but they do allow for matches. </div></div>

Actually the do allow clinics. They also make the range available to 4H, Appleseed, LE, etc. on a regular basis for very minimal fees.

Volunteer shooters helping out shooters is one thing. Charging big bucks, tying up a range making it unavailable to the membership, and bringing in outsiders not from the local community is a whole different thing.

You should try Buffalo Creek/Camp Fickes Frank. They are much more receptive to the color of green than CRC is. Check out Mean Streets Tactical, a company that runs quite a bit of training up there, for more info.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I rather suspect David (DGosnell) knows what he's doing. Before stating that a lot of non-formally trained F-Class shooters are probably not even be aware of what they don't know, you might take a look at this:

http://usfclass.com/members/2009/20

The bottom line is like most everything else. There are some people that will benefit greatly from formal training, and some that will not. Clearly there are also individuals that are talented and motivated enough to do very well without it. Would these individuals constitute a majority? Highly unlikely, but they obviously exist, demonstrating that high-level shooting performance can be reached without formalized training.

Personally, I would like to see more long distance markmanship training (at all levels) made accessible than there currently seems to be. Of course, that would require the sponsoring individuals' time/effort, as well as some amount of $$$. I haven't found the cost of such programs to be an issue. However, the time involved can be, particularly if extensive travel is involved. </div></div>

The reason I started this thread was to enlighten any interested to an observation I had made. Although there are folks who do O.K. without training, the point is, it seems, today most folks who are buying equipment for LR have notions about it all based on fantasy and fiction, stuff they've seen on TV, which will undermine their success with it all. Now, when you've got an entire firing line of such folks, you can't expect osmosis is going to take hold to get any of these folks off to a good start. But, make no mistake, the folks I'm talking about do not think they need any training and in fact say they know how to do it. Any question directed to them about the the elements and factors of a steady position quickly reveals their ignorance about anything important to good shooting. So, if these folks are actually getting the job done, they must be naturally born good shooters, that's to say, doing it properly without recognizing it. I, once upon a time, was such a shooter.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

There are exceptions to every rule. Even though they are rare exceptions.

Case in point: Gary Anderson, I ask him how he got started,(thinking through HS or Collage teams). He was self taught. Started with a cheap 22, shooting on a farm in Nebraska. As he could aford it, got a better rifle. Worked his tail off on his own until he started sending his targets to the AMU requesting a try out.

The rest is history.

But, that is a "rare" Exception. Even then I have to believe he got a few pointers from the AMU.
 
Re: By-passing Formal Training?

actually, i think there is quite a lot of low-cost LR training available. the trick is knowing where to look for it, as most outfits don't advertise well, if at all.

obviously, quality of instruction varies quite a bit, as do facilities.

nevertheless, within 90 minutes of my house in TN, there are 3 different 1000 yrd ranges, with a 4th opening in January. I can think of at least 6 groups or individuals that offer rifle classes in the area, just because I'm part of the community. But I'd bet if I walked into any of the gun stores around here, they wouldn't be able to name a single one of those.