Calculating MOA from 9 targets, one shot on each?

[carbonbased]

Ok, go easy on me here. Here’s the target I shot tonight after over a year of target shooting hiatus (eye problem).

This was shot at 50yds, 17HMR. The yellow ring around the bullseye is 1” in diameter.

Prob #1

• I have a number of apps like Ballistic-X but none of them give me just the bullseye-to-center-of-bullet-hole measurement in inches for ONE shot. I searched but cannot find anything. Don’t feel like doing the Pythagoras dance nine times over multiple sheets of targets with nine bullseyes each.

Prob #2

• Giving up on the digital approach, with calipers I manually measured the bullseye-to-center-of-bullet-hole for each target above.
• To pretend I shot nine times at just ONE target, is there a way to figure out the MOA without manually compositing the nine targets in Photoshop? The average for the nine from bullseye is .331”, but that’s really not telling me the group size…I don’t think.
• Perhaps there is a more useful way of analyzing targets like these than group size/MOA? I’m not a BR shooter (or any sort of competitor) and don’t know what I don’t know.

Prob #3

• Is there an app that will do this for me automatically AND that works on a Mac? Even if they only work on multiple bullet holes per single target?
• There are nice phone apps that would seem to auto-find bullet holes and auto-calculate this stuff but only work on “official” targets (the Eley-X Shot and the $18 TargetScan)

Thank you for your time and I hope this isn’t a totally dumb question.

 

[6.5SH]

Think the MAC requirement is going to be the real hurdle.

OnTarget TDS - Analyzes target info and generates advanced statistics

OnTarget TDS - Includes automated target analysis, group statistics including SD and CEP, and virtual groups for calculating stats using higher shot counts.

ontargetshooting.com

If you have an older Intel based MAC that can still do Boot Camp that would be what I'd try.

Install Windows 10 with Boot Camp - Apple Support

Learn how to install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp.

support.apple.com

 

[carbonbased]

Think the MAC requirement is going to be the real hurdle.

OnTarget TDS - Analyzes target info and generates advanced statistics

OnTarget TDS - Includes automated target analysis, group statistics including SD and CEP, and virtual groups for calculating stats using higher shot counts.

ontargetshooting.com

If you have an older Intel based MAC that can still do Boot Camp that would be what I'd try.

Install Windows 10 with Boot Camp - Apple Support

Learn how to install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp.

support.apple.com

OnTarget, yes, that is the bugger I was thinking about (but forgot the name) that won’t work on a Mac. I do have an older Intel-based Mac. Does one need a scanner or will phone pics work ok too? I imagine a slightly skewed pic of a target isn’t ideal, but I’m not anal.

It would probably be easier (and more expensive, over time) to just buy the official targets and let Eley-X Shot or TargetScan do their thing. But…I’m not a high-volume target shooter so maybe the phone app solution would be an easy button.

 

[iceng]

Use image over lay program, or one of many free online ones ??
Cut out your 9 targets, then overlay them ? That or shoot another group... and stay on the same target.

 

[6.5SH]

It can do scans or import common image files (.jpg etc.)

 

[carbonbased]

Use image over lay program, or one of many free online ones ??
Cut out your 9 targets, then overlay them ? That or shoot another group... and stay on the same target.

Yeah, I can do that with photoshop. That’s labor intensive…well, not like digging-a-ditch-intensive, but dagnabbit:

P.S. history of the word “dagnabbit”: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-does-dagnabbit-mean

 

[carbonbased]

I found an online calculator to solve part of prob #2 Calc 50yd inches to MOA here:

indecorous.com | Bullseye Pistol | MOA calculator

 

[justin amateur]

Using Mark I eyeball, top left and middle bull produce y'er ES.
Based on the 1 inch ring, looks like a 3/4 inch spread
giving a 1.5 moa group at 50 yards.

 

[308pirate]

@carbonbased I fail to see the point of this. @justin amateur gave you the easy way out.

If you want a group, shoot a group.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

TARAN does exactly what you want. It is built to agg targets into one group and show stats for the agg. It’s less robust for single groups (only size, no MR) but you can export the coords for each shot and excel wizard your way to whatever you need.

 

[jgraves]

OnTarget TDS. You can download a 15 day demo and it will build composite groups. I built 120 shot composite groups a couple weeks ago. And you can export to excel to geek out even further.

 

[carbonbased]

@carbonbased I fail to see the point of this. @justin amateur gave you the easy way out.

If you want a group, shoot a group.

Yeah, I get it. But here’s why I like to shoot one-per bullseye: it feels more like the shooting I care about, which is blasting small varmints like pdogs and Richardson ground squirrels.

In other words, I care more about quickly transitioning from target to target vs. seeing what sort of group I can slowly make. Can I quickly hit what I aim at? is what I’m after.

The easy solution is just shoot groups to see how good the barrel is, at least with this shooter behind it. But the dot drill (if that is what this is called) tests more than that and it would be nice to have an automated way to calculate at least the #1 Prob (distance from bullseye) for each shot.

First world problems!

For kicks I downloaded that $18 TargetScan app and another (free) one called Blackhole. I used a random target (a NRA B-2) I found online for my test. Target found here:

https://preview.redd.it/4th-time-shooting-bullseye-competition-v0-4prp83w10y8a1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c5f31c607fa018f67786ae737671008b9f4e2365

www.reddit.com

After saving the target to my phone I selected the NRA B-2 type target in each app. Blackhole found all of the shots and scored them. Instantly. TargetScan failed to read anything and seemed to need a much better pic with white holes with no shadows.

Blackhole doesn’t seem to do measuring like Ballistic-X does but holy shit I’m sure it could.

Blackhole output:

I think I’ll buy some official targets that are in each apps library and shoot some up. Then I’ll see how easy it is to use each app. If I don’t like TargetScan I’ll just request a refund from the apple App Store…in fact, that’s what the dev of the app suggests.

 

[carbonbased]

Above is a detail shot of how one can superimpose Blackhole’s guesses on top of the actual target. Not bad considering the low quality pic it had to start with. There is a way to manually adjust the shots.

 

[carbonbased]

A little update: found some printable NRA targets for poking hole in with a pencil. Yeah, I know, crap, but it’s all I have to work with tonight. Apparently they’re 100% sized but abbreviated to fit on 8.5”x11” paper.

Here’s my pic, replete with ragged pencil pokes. It’s a B-8 or B-8 c:

TargetScan needed a little help, but here’s the output:

Couldn’t get it to record a 10th shot, but maybe this discipline only allows 9 shots? Manually marking some shots was easy but it did find about 2/3 of the super fake ragged holes. Note that it seems to calc some sort of group. Not sure what the red circle and crosshairs denote…

With the same ultra crap target, Blackhole seemed to record a lot of false positives and I assume it would work fine with real bullet holes given it worked well with the random internet target I found (prev post).

After correcting it and allowing ads to unlock some advanced features, I got this:

Can’t figure out how to make it measure in inches.

Anyway, this is what my lazy ass has discovered so far. These apps might not do exactly what I want, but they do stuff automatically and without my laptop. And if they work better with real bullet holes and better pics, heck, that’s pretty cool.

 

[308pirate]

The perennial confusion in laymens' minds between accuracy and precision.

I know you're confused because you're trying to measure precision using an accuracy tool.

 

[Baron23]

Ok, go easy on me here. Here’s the target I shot tonight after over a year of target shooting hiatus (eye problem).

This was shot at 50yds, 17HMR. The yellow ring around the bullseye is 1” in diameter.

View attachment 8291904

Prob #1

• I have a number of apps like Ballistic-X but none of them give me just the bullseye-to-center-of-bullet-hole measurement in inches for ONE shot. I searched but cannot find anything. Don’t feel like doing the Pythagoras dance nine times over multiple sheets of targets with nine bullseyes each.

Prob #2

• Giving up on the digital approach, with calipers I manually measured the bullseye-to-center-of-bullet-hole for each target above.
• To pretend I shot nine times at just ONE target, is there a way to figure out the MOA without manually compositing the nine targets in Photoshop? The average for the nine from bullseye is .331”, but that’s really not telling me the group size…I don’t think.
• Perhaps there is a more useful way of analyzing targets like these than group size/MOA? I’m not a BR shooter (or any sort of competitor) and don’t know what I don’t know.

Prob #3

• Is there an app that will do this for me automatically AND that works on a Mac? Even if they only work on multiple bullet holes per single target?
• There are nice phone apps that would seem to auto-find bullet holes and auto-calculate this stuff but only work on “official” targets (the Eley-X Shot and the $18 TargetScan)

Thank you for your time and I hope this isn’t a totally dumb question.

I’ve not read the whole thread, but look at a product call On Target.

OnTarget Shooting - Measuring Firearm Precision and Accuracy

OnTarget programs measure firearm precision and accuracy, helping thousands of shooters worldwide improve their shooting performance.

ontargetshooting.com

It is NOT phone based. It is PC based (not Mac unless you install a virtual machine w a Windows OS running in it)

You tell the software where your POA is and it definitely gives you distance of your shot/group and the max size and mean of a group. If you have multiple groups on a target, it will give you target overall stats (group size, vertical and horizontal distance from POA, etc.

The slightly more expensive version (and both are very cheap) will let you aggregate multiple targets but I only have and have used the lower cost version. I’ve used this software for 4 years and still love it.

Just my view, but screw trying to do this stuff on a phone.

 

[carbonbased]

The perennial confusion in laymens' minds between accuracy and precision.

I know you're confused because you're trying to measure precision using an accuracy tool.

You have defeated me, o’ 308.

I want to automatically measure how precise my random acts of accuracy are lol.

 

[carbonbased]

So a fellow forum member kindly ran my target in the first post through OnTarget and gave me this result. Pretty neat.

 

[308pirate]

You have defeated me, o’ 308.

I want to automatically measure how precise my random acts of accuracy are lol.

It's amusing to watch, I'll give you that