Can a barrel be too heavy for a receiver?

ryu_sekai

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Long story short I own a Tikka
T3 CTR That shot .66 with 10 rounds and sub. 5 with 5 rounds with 168 GMM

The group opened up and I had a local Smith rebarrel it with a bartlein m24 profile barrel.

Now it shoots around. 7 with 3 rounds constantly. My Smith is now telling me that the new m24 profile is too heavy for the tikka receiver. The gun sits in a mdt chassis and he wants to bed the gun in to the metal chassis.

My under standing is the point of a chassis is so you don't need to bed it... can a barrel be to heavy for a receiver?


Included pic 10 rd group shot at swat sniper school with the original tikka barrel.
 

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ShaKr524

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I am not sure what he means by to heavy? If the barrel is fully free floated bedding the action wont change the torque moment on the receiver since it is completely unsupported in both cases. It may not like the GMM as much as the old barrel. If you are not intending to load for it I would probably be more inclined to try a tuner (Like an EC Tuner) and see if it dials in. Bedding the chassis isn't going to hurt anything but I can't see it dropping your group size either. Of course I could be totally wrong......
 
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Newbie2020

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I have heard that before but I think it’s a bogus theory based on no science.

There are lots of CTRs rebuilt into heavy barrel tack drivers across the Hide.

Not a Smith but once the cartridge is chambered I can’t conceive why the action still has significant variable effects on the bullet leaving the chamber.
 

FCS

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I have heard that before but I think it’s a bogus theory based on no science.

There are lots of CTRs rebuilt into heavy barrel tack drivers across the Hide.

Not a Smith but once the cartridge is chambered I can’t conceive why the action still has significant variable effects on the bullet leaving the chamber.

Theoretically I can come up with several possible reasons.
Reality slims it down to very unlikely bbl is too heavy for receiver.
New bbl & chamber doesn’t like the current lot # of ammo. Get a different lot # or different brand.
 

DJL2

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There are no shortage of folks running heavy barrels and a chassis with no bedding. There are similarly no shortage of folks that bed the first few inches of barrel knox when setting up a traditional stock. I’d guess your smith is thinking old school is worth a try on your chassis setup…

If your action gets consistent, shot to shot engagement with the chassis, there’s really nothing more to be done. If your action touches the chassis or pillars at just a couple points you might be leaving some performance on the table.

That said, if you want to get back to going under 3/4” for 10 shots… might be worth a go if your alternative is to pull the barrel.
 
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ma smith

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    cut down the barrel ?
    AFAIK the weight is proportionate to the length,
    a shorter barrel is also stiffer
    so cut thru any BS that way 😎
     

    candyx

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    Of course a barrel can be to heavy for a receiver if the receiver is not built heavy enough to support the weight hanging off it. Plus the add stress of recoil when fired. Very few manufacturers over design , its usually designed to reduced weight and material so its just strong enough under normal use. Usually they bed a few inches of a heavy barrel just for the added support.
     

    Wannashootit

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    I'm one that beds the first inch or two of the barrel ahead of the lug on bulls, or heavier contours over 26".
    I believe it has zero effect on harmonics/resonance, and helps cradle the barrel ahead of the receiver ring so it's not just cantilevered with no support.

    It's absolute physics "common sense" to me. Suggest you might give it a try- easy to do, nothing to lose.
    You can always grind out a bit to create clearance if you find it detrimental- but I'd bet $$ it'll alleviate the issue.
     

    Newbie2020

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    Acknowledged: Bedding the action and a bit of barrel likely will do no harm.

    Sometimes things that make sense in theory are of no value or benefit in practice. Lots of times actually.

    There are certainly anecdotes where bedding an action in a chassis has made a slight improvement in precision.

    But given the nature of the OP move from factory CTR bbl to m24, that shouldn’t have been enough change to turn a quality action into a poor action should it?

    If the lugs are firmly contacting in the chassis lug channels, recoil shouldn’t be shifting anything that matters, should it?

    The simplest solution is most often the correct solution, but not always.

    Yes, I’m poking the bear. I’m bored sitting in an airport. Haha
     

    Zuul

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    How many rounds on the new barrel? You feel you have enough lead through it to “season” it?


    If you reload it may be worth it to work up some different samples and see if you can get tighter groups.

    For shits and grins it may be worth it to pop the rifle out of the chassis, give it a visual check, and re torque the action to the chassis.
     
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    fdkay

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    You may have gotten a bad barrel. It happens. There's sometimes no explanation for it.
    I don't know anything about the Tikka in regards to tenon length. But if the tenon length is short and the weight substantial, I can see it affecting accuracy. A pad under the first inch or so after the recoil lug might help.
    Ask your gun plumber what will happen if the bed job doesn't work? Will he contact the barrel maker and arrange for a replacement?
     

    fdkay

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    Just checked, Tikka tenon length is nearly 1" (about .986+-), so it should be long enough.
    I'm guessing either bad barrel or bad chamber.
     

    Ozarkcop

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    I have heavy doubts that the barrel weight will effect the accuracy. You might check your action screws as well make sure your chassis is clean and dry. I have seen people running there action screws a little too loose allowing for the action to shift a little and this problem can be worse in a chassis especially if any oil is present in the bedding area. Balance can have a big impact on accuracy of the shooter as well but if it is well supported front an aft on a bench I doubt it will effect the accuracy of the rifle. Someone else suggested your barrel may not be broken in yet as well, which I agree, with some barrels break in quick others take a bunch of rounds.
     

    fdkay

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    Long story short I own a Tikka
    T3 CTR That shot .66 with 10 rounds and sub. 5 with 5 rounds with 168 GMM

    The group opened up and I had a local Smith rebarrel it with a bartlein m24 profile barrel.

    Now it shoots around. 7 with 3 rounds constantly. My Smith is now telling me that the new m24 profile is too heavy for the tikka receiver. The gun sits in a mdt chassis and he wants to bed the gun in to the metal chassis.

    My under standing is the point of a chassis is so you don't need to bed it... can a barrel be to heavy for a receiver?
    @Frank Green
     
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    ryu_sekai

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    I have heavy doubts that the barrel weight will effect the accuracy. You might check your action screws as well make sure your chassis is clean and dry. I have seen people running there action screws a little too loose allowing for the action to shift a little and this problem can be worse in a chassis especially if any oil is present in the bedding area. Balance can have a big impact on accuracy of the shooter as well but if it is well supported front an aft on a bench I doubt it will effect the accuracy of the rifle. Someone else suggested your barrel may not be broken in yet as well, which I agree, with some barrels break in quick others take a bunch of rounds.

    So far there have been about 160 rounds through it.
     

    spife7980

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    I do not reload. I am issued 168 FGMM that's all were allowed to shoot.
    Just because one factory load doesn’t shoot the same in all barrels doesn’t mean a barrel is bad.
    Shit, a different lot of the same ammo has a drastic effect in the same barrel.

    So far you haven’t found out that it shoots bad. You found out that one particular round isn’t it’s favorite, that’s it.

    M24 isn’t even that heavy of a contour.
    When you barrel does this in front of the action consider bedding the barrel shank.
    1627074659272.png
     
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    drglock

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    My custom .308 built by PCR shot this group with my hand loads would shoot FGMM,Hornady match and Hornady Precision Hunter in the .5-.7 range. So it probably has more to do with the reamer used and the specs of the chamber.
    88DB6040-855C-412A-88EF-FE0AC887B3BF.jpeg
    Also my WTO Switchlug in 6.5 Creedmoor shoots this with my hand loads but shoots Hornady Hunter ELDX and Hornady Match in the .6 range and Berger Match 130gr Hybrid OTM in the .4-.5 range.
    CA004875-B59E-4E2F-A2FA-FE27BC1AD789.jpeg
     
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    ryu_sekai

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    Just because one factory load doesn’t shoot the same in all barrels doesn’t mean a barrel is bad.
    Shit, a different lot of the same ammo has a drastic effect in the same barrel.

    So far you haven’t found out that it shoots bad. You found out that one particular round isn’t it’s favorite, that’s it.

    M24 isn’t even that heavy of a contour.
    When you barrel does this in front of the action consider bedding the barrel shank.
    View attachment 7673480
    Mine does look like that the end of the barrel is thicker than where it connects to action.
     
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    spife7980

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    Mine does look like that the end of the barrel is thicker than where it connects to action.
    Oh, well thats because tikka use a smaller shank barrel than most but its still no issue. Sounds like your smith used a normal contour 1.25 he had in stock for it vs a tikka sized 1.135" diameter.
    The barrel I shared from a guy at my club is like a 10lb ~1.5" straight contour. Guess it wasnt as illustrative as I thought...
    1627077495418.png



    If youll feel better bed the barrel for the first couple inches. I have before once. Confidence in your equipment is certainly important. Certainly wont hurt. But when you rebarrel youll want to grind it out and clearance it and rebed again so its not stressing anything. Ive just ground it out and left it floated that way for subsequent barrels and havent noticed any difference like everyone else.


    Sounds to me like your smith is trying to come up with excuses for why or driving more work instead of suggesting that you try different ammos since youre stuck with whats issued. But if you trust him then I guess let him do his thing.
     

    Rob01

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    With 160 rounds the barrel is just coming into it's own. I wouldn't do anything until you try different ammo.

    And I wouldn't bed the action. If anything maybe bed under the chamber of the barrel and that's it.
     

    jcmullis2

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    On my hunting rigs I typically start with several different flavors of ammo to see what the rifle likes. There’s usually a couple that are decent and shoot sub moa. If you don’t reload you’ll need to something like l mentioned.
    The truth is, if I read correctly, the rifle is shooting .7s so technically it’s still sub moa without it’s favorite ammo. I wouldn’t go piss off the gunsmith or barrel maker just yet.
     

    Terry Cross

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    @ryu_sekai
    Your barrel contour is not the issue. For sure.
    Bedding some of the barrel in front of the receiver could potentially, maybe, sorta help with POI shifts after heavy handling, etc. but do nothing for your ability to shoot groups so I would not go there.

    If your gun doesn't shoot GM308M well then it will not likely shoot any other round well. It may not have the highest BC and may not have the best On Target performance but the ogive of the 168MK is proven to be absolutely the most forgiving across a very wide variety of chambers and barrels.

    If everything else (good barrel blank and chamber cut clean with good surface finish around lead and throat) was in order, your rifle should have been shooting as good as it will ever shoot after the first 10rds. If you have 160+ rounds on the barrel, it should have shown its capabilities 150rds ago. Positively, guaranteed.

    On a totally separate note....
    If you are being issued GM308M, your issuing entity needs to get with the program and never order it again. In the last 10 years, L.E. has been leaving the MK style bullets in droves due to inconsistent terminal ballistics and especially chaotic performance on even light glass.
    You should have them try and adopt the Federal T308T. It is loaded on the same machines GM is loaded on but runs a different bullet specifically made for Federal for best open air to terminal performance. It is the only round we have ever seen shoot as good or better than GM308M and it is loaded just for the L.E. market.

    If you need to direct your TLs or command to credible sources regarding the exodus from GM308M, I can give you POCs.

    ./
     

    fdkay

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    After perusing this thread again it appears something isn't crystal clear.
    I read into this that this rifle is a personally owned work rifle and the OP is limited to specific ammo.
    He has tried several lots of fgmm 168.
    Normally, this ammo is a standard because it tends to shoot well in most rifles.
    There can be a discussion about his agency still using smks but that should be for a later day.
    How does your fired brass look?
    Compare a fired case to an unfired case, see if they appear the same dimensionally.
    Roll one of the fired cases across a glass top table, see if it exhibits wobble.
    Getting ammo is really hard right now, but see if you can score a box of Hornady eld match and see how that prints.
    Sometimes the different profile works better. Sometimes.

    Edit to add: I see Terry was responding the same time I was typing. Pay heed. Terry is the man.
     

    ryu_sekai

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    @ryu_sekai
    Your barrel contour is not the issue. For sure.
    Bedding some of the barrel in front of the receiver could potentially, maybe, sorta help with POI shifts after heavy handling, etc. but do nothing for your ability to shoot groups so I would not go there.

    If your gun doesn't shoot GM308M well then it will not likely shoot any other round well. It may not have the highest BC and may not have the best On Target performance but the ogive of the 168MK is proven to be absolutely the most forgiving across a very wide variety of chambers and barrels.

    If everything else (good barrel blank and chamber cut clean with good surface finish around lead and throat) was in order, your rifle should have been shooting as good as it will ever shoot after the first 10rds. If you have 160+ rounds on the barrel, it should have shown its capabilities 150rds ago. Positively, guaranteed.

    On a totally separate note....
    If you are being issued GM308M, your issuing entity needs to get with the program and never order it again. In the last 10 years, L.E. has been leaving the MK style bullets in droves due to inconsistent terminal ballistics and especially chaotic performance on even light glass.
    You should have them try and adopt the Federal T308T. It is loaded on the same machines GM is loaded on but runs a different bullet specifically made for Federal for best open air to terminal performance. It is the only round we have ever seen shoot as good or better than GM308M and it is loaded just for the L.E. market.

    If you need to direct your TLs or command to credible sources regarding the exodus from GM308M, I can give you POCs.

    ./
    We have FED bonded for defeating barrier but still use MK for open air stuff.
     

    ryu_sekai

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    @ryu_sekai
    Your barrel contour is not the issue. For sure.
    Bedding some of the barrel in front of the receiver could potentially, maybe, sorta help with POI shifts after heavy handling, etc. but do nothing for your ability to shoot groups so I would not go there.

    If your gun doesn't shoot GM308M well then it will not likely shoot any other round well. It may not have the highest BC and may not have the best On Target performance but the ogive of the 168MK is proven to be absolutely the most forgiving across a very wide variety of chambers and barrels.

    If everything else (good barrel blank and chamber cut clean with good surface finish around lead and throat) was in order, your rifle should have been shooting as good as it will ever shoot after the first 10rds. If you have 160+ rounds on the barrel, it should have shown its capabilities 150rds ago. Positively, guaranteed.

    On a totally separate note....
    If you are being issued GM308M, your issuing entity needs to get with the program and never order it again. In the last 10 years, L.E. has been leaving the MK style bullets in droves due to inconsistent terminal ballistics and especially chaotic performance on even light glass.
    You should have them try and adopt the Federal T308T. It is loaded on the same machines GM is loaded on but runs a different bullet specifically made for Federal for best open air to terminal performance. It is the only round we have ever seen shoot as good or better than GM308M and it is loaded just for the L.E. market.

    If you need to direct your TLs or command to credible sources regarding the exodus from GM308M, I can give you POCs.

    ./
    He said he's gonna be going over everything again to see if there is an issue. I'll wait to see what he says and report back.
     
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    Baron23

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    I’m far from an expert, particularly compared to many who have responded in this thread, but new barrel means smith had it out of the chassis and the recommendation to check action screws….like maybe pull it and reinstall in the chassis….seems like a very valid suggestion that’s easy and at no cost

    And check base and rings while at it.

    Just a thought.

    Am I off base here?
     

    ryu_sekai

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    I’m far from an expert, particularly compared to many who have responded in this thread, but new barrel means smith had it out of the chassis and the recommendation to check action screws….like maybe pull it and reinstall in the chassis….seems like a very valid suggestion that’s easy and at no cost

    And check base and rings while at it.

    Just a thought.

    Am I off base here?

    Everything was tight. He torqued it to 65 and I marked it. Didn't move.
     

    Terry Cross

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    We have FED bonded for defeating barrier but still use MK for open air stuff.
    I figured you had some type of barrier round but you definitely still need to leave the MK. It is very unpredictable on tissue. Very.

    Yes, it is still a freakin .308 carrying an ass load of energy regardless of bullet design but the MK could give low penetration in one instance and over penetration on the next. Like I said, there are L.E. specific resources for info available for more data and legit reasons behind the push to move.

    If you are from Plano, check with some of the TTPOA cadre and see what they have to say about it.

    Work safe.
    T.

    ./
     

    Highbrass

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    So I'm no expert in this area, but I just built a .224 Valkyrie on a Savage 111 action. I used a x-Caliber barrel. My first trip to the range had shots all over the place. So I made some handloads with 88 Gr ELDMs the first few shots were a repeat of the previous trip. Then all at once it started shooting really nice tight groups. Barrel break in ? I don't know but I guess some barrels need a bit of seasoning ?
     

    jcmullis2

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    I’d give Smitty time to deal with it and, if he isn’t able to get it shooting the way you think it should, have the rifle re-barreled by LRi or some other reputable business. Like others have mentioned the additional weight isn’t the problem. God only knows why your Smith would tell you that bs. Good luck
     

    ryu_sekai

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    I’d give Smitty time to deal with it and, if he isn’t able to get it shooting the way you think it should, have the rifle re-barreled by LRi or some other reputable business. Like others have mentioned the additional weight isn’t the problem. God only knows why your Smith would tell you that bs. Good luck
    Deleted Smith name.
     
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    jcmullis2

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    I’d listen to the people here, they don’t have a dog in it. We all go with heavier barrels so it can’t be that.
     

    ryu_sekai

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    Next time, use a well known quality smith who stands behind his work and doesn’t invent excuses.

    Let this be a lesson to all those newcomers and a reminder for those of us w “a friend with a mill”
    I did look him up and talked to a few people with rifles he has built. They all had good things to say about him. He also has done a lot of local agency work.
     

    salks

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    I know when my tikka was rebarreled they took a bit of a skim cut on the front of the receiver to give a little more surface area for the barrel to tighten up to. This was on a Tac A1. They have a bit of a taper on the end of the reciever and by cutting it back made a bit stronger there.
     
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