Ya know I asked this a few years ago - any one know what happened to the boonie hat and/or white feather that Carlos had?
Was just curious. Should be in the USMC museum.
Was just curious. Should be in the USMC museum.
- Thread starter ArcticLight
- Start date
Re: Carlos's white feather
Ya, heard it was in a trunk at his house with Jo still but dunno.
I'd be curious, if an yone knew or knows Carlos III - it really should go in a museum!!!
Funny, if you research it, the white feather is a sign of cowardess in battle or peace. It was exactly that, which Carlos mentioned about the duality of peace and battle. The pretty birds in a combat zone.
Ya, heard it was in a trunk at his house with Jo still but dunno.
I'd be curious, if an yone knew or knows Carlos III - it really should go in a museum!!!
Funny, if you research it, the white feather is a sign of cowardess in battle or peace. It was exactly that, which Carlos mentioned about the duality of peace and battle. The pretty birds in a combat zone.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, if you research it, the white feather is a sign of cowardess in battle or peace. It was exactly that, which Carlos mentioned about the duality of peace and battle. The pretty birds in a combat zone.
</div></div>
I don't think Hathcock was a very Literary aficionado, and didn't read Mason or Wodehouse. it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, if you research it, the white feather is a sign of cowardess in battle or peace. It was exactly that, which Carlos mentioned about the duality of peace and battle. The pretty birds in a combat zone.
</div></div>
I don't think Hathcock was a very Literary aficionado, and didn't read Mason or Wodehouse. it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather. </div></div>
Really?
What year an where, did you meet him, Burke, or MacAbee to base that responce upon?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather. </div></div>
Really?
What year an where, did you meet him, Burke, or MacAbee to base that responce upon?
Re: Carlos's white feather
c<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, if you research it, the white feather is a sign of cowardess in battle or peace. It was exactly that, which Carlos mentioned about the duality of peace and battle. The pretty birds in a combat zone.
</div></div>
I don't think Hathcock was a very Literary aficionado, and didn't read Mason or Wodehouse. it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather. </div></div>
Actually Carlos was quoted as having seen the birds on teh battlefield and how serene it was. That feather represented that per him.
Want me to dig out the page number where you can read that yourself? Or google it.
c<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, if you research it, the white feather is a sign of cowardess in battle or peace. It was exactly that, which Carlos mentioned about the duality of peace and battle. The pretty birds in a combat zone.
</div></div>
I don't think Hathcock was a very Literary aficionado, and didn't read Mason or Wodehouse. it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather. </div></div>
Actually Carlos was quoted as having seen the birds on teh battlefield and how serene it was. That feather represented that per him.
Want me to dig out the page number where you can read that yourself? Or google it.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather. </div></div>
Really?
What year an where, did you meet him, Burke, or MacAbee to base that responce upon? </div></div>
Buying into a Cult of Personality because of a book. There were, and are, better and more successful snipers than Hathcock. But Hathcock shot a guy in the eye through his scope, and shot a guy off a bicycle with a M2 that he had preregistered in advance. Good for him. I'm not gonna bow down and kowtow. 'm a former Scout/Sniper too. If he was alive i might like to talk shop, but not kiss his ass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it was just a little feather he picked up and stuck in his hat. that it has some sort of deep significance is fantasy building a legend.
Just a feather. </div></div>
Really?
What year an where, did you meet him, Burke, or MacAbee to base that responce upon? </div></div>
Buying into a Cult of Personality because of a book. There were, and are, better and more successful snipers than Hathcock. But Hathcock shot a guy in the eye through his scope, and shot a guy off a bicycle with a M2 that he had preregistered in advance. Good for him. I'm not gonna bow down and kowtow. 'm a former Scout/Sniper too. If he was alive i might like to talk shop, but not kiss his ass.
Re: Carlos's white feather
He told me he pulled it out of a pillow at a Holiday Inn Express he stayed at????
He told me he pulled it out of a pillow at a Holiday Inn Express he stayed at????
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buying into a Cult of Personality because of a book. There were, and are, better and more successful snipers than Hathcock. But Hathcock shot a guy in the eye through his scope, and shot a guy off a bicycle with a M2 that he had preregistered in advance. Good for him. I'm not gonna bow down and kowtow. 'm a former Scout/Sniper too. If he was alive i might like to talk shop, but not kiss his ass.
</div></div>
I actually agree with you, and I respectfully believe he became a self-made legend but I HIGHLY respect what he did by doing that.
I think because of him the USMC is a lot better off, as are at least 93 other marines that may have been killed by an enemy bullet.
I'm not even sure if anyone has ever validated the scope, general stalk, etc - doesn't matter to me.
Many years ago I sat on a short lecture he gave and thought "Who's this old guy gonna tell ME how to shoot", but after someoen told me who he was (Before the book) I listened and was intrigued.
I think his legacy is that he brought it out that snipers are needed in training during peacetime so it won't take so long to train them up, and that they have other uses such as being a scout.
Because of him we didn't put the snipers away after war...
That's his legacy in my mind, whether the other stuff is true or made up - does not matter.
And ya know me, I like animals (I will hunt though), and I hate to see killing but it is a necessity, and Carlos rather felt the same way - but that little thing about the feather - finding the beauty in it, rather humble...
I really believe when he got discharged and went into his dark room that he missed being in that position, hell I think a lot of us have felt that when we left the military whether it was me being in charge of the Battalion comsec vault or others in charge of teaching snipers.
Still highly respect the man, and everyone that has followed in his footsteps humbly.
I do seem to have a problem with John Culbertson though, he has a very negative attitude towards everything and blames everyone for failing to take his suggestions (In his book 13 cent killer and Shooter).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buying into a Cult of Personality because of a book. There were, and are, better and more successful snipers than Hathcock. But Hathcock shot a guy in the eye through his scope, and shot a guy off a bicycle with a M2 that he had preregistered in advance. Good for him. I'm not gonna bow down and kowtow. 'm a former Scout/Sniper too. If he was alive i might like to talk shop, but not kiss his ass.
</div></div>
I actually agree with you, and I respectfully believe he became a self-made legend but I HIGHLY respect what he did by doing that.
I think because of him the USMC is a lot better off, as are at least 93 other marines that may have been killed by an enemy bullet.
I'm not even sure if anyone has ever validated the scope, general stalk, etc - doesn't matter to me.
Many years ago I sat on a short lecture he gave and thought "Who's this old guy gonna tell ME how to shoot", but after someoen told me who he was (Before the book) I listened and was intrigued.
I think his legacy is that he brought it out that snipers are needed in training during peacetime so it won't take so long to train them up, and that they have other uses such as being a scout.
Because of him we didn't put the snipers away after war...
That's his legacy in my mind, whether the other stuff is true or made up - does not matter.
And ya know me, I like animals (I will hunt though), and I hate to see killing but it is a necessity, and Carlos rather felt the same way - but that little thing about the feather - finding the beauty in it, rather humble...
I really believe when he got discharged and went into his dark room that he missed being in that position, hell I think a lot of us have felt that when we left the military whether it was me being in charge of the Battalion comsec vault or others in charge of teaching snipers.
Still highly respect the man, and everyone that has followed in his footsteps humbly.
I do seem to have a problem with John Culbertson though, he has a very negative attitude towards everything and blames everyone for failing to take his suggestions (In his book 13 cent killer and Shooter).
Re: Carlos's white feather
If your still so interested I will be glad to sell you the genuine Carlos Hathcock one and only Vietnam first tour boonie hat and white feather. I will also throw in a personalized autographed copy of his book.
If anybody else wants to own this unique offering, I have several available. They are all genuine, trust me.
I can also offer his special Sniper socks, Wool, OD Green, cushion sole slightly used.
How about a lock of his hair? Sperm samples are this weeks special! Shipped overnight!
If your still so interested I will be glad to sell you the genuine Carlos Hathcock one and only Vietnam first tour boonie hat and white feather. I will also throw in a personalized autographed copy of his book.
If anybody else wants to own this unique offering, I have several available. They are all genuine, trust me.
I can also offer his special Sniper socks, Wool, OD Green, cushion sole slightly used.
How about a lock of his hair? Sperm samples are this weeks special! Shipped overnight!
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buying into a Cult of Personality because of a book.
</div></div>
Don't read books or believe in 3rd party hear say, either. In less than 48hrs after he made the scope shot, a few of us lowly Army pukes wondered out loud. If the Marines had guys that could shoot like that, why were we ever recalled?
Even he made comment, him an Burke were very lucky that day as the NVA got first shot.
Us Army dicks were taught, he who has the best Field-Craft always gets first shot, so best to make the most of it,....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buying into a Cult of Personality because of a book.
</div></div>
Don't read books or believe in 3rd party hear say, either. In less than 48hrs after he made the scope shot, a few of us lowly Army pukes wondered out loud. If the Marines had guys that could shoot like that, why were we ever recalled?
Even he made comment, him an Burke were very lucky that day as the NVA got first shot.
Us Army dicks were taught, he who has the best Field-Craft always gets first shot, so best to make the most of it,....
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...guess no one has heard of Adelbert Waldron III </div></div>
I hadn't, thanks for some interesting reading. He's buried in the town my father's family lived for a long time; odd since he was born in Syracuse.
1911fan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...guess no one has heard of Adelbert Waldron III </div></div>
I hadn't, thanks for some interesting reading. He's buried in the town my father's family lived for a long time; odd since he was born in Syracuse.
1911fan
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking of "army pukes", guess no one has heard of Adelbert Waldron III </div></div>
As always, much depends, on how any war is going in the public's eyes. Perception, Facts an Fiction are all used as a means to a predetermined end game.
FWIW, Waldron's real numbers were in-fact higher, as only those within bounds were counted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking of "army pukes", guess no one has heard of Adelbert Waldron III </div></div>
As always, much depends, on how any war is going in the public's eyes. Perception, Facts an Fiction are all used as a means to a predetermined end game.
FWIW, Waldron's real numbers were in-fact higher, as only those within bounds were counted.
Re: Carlos's white feather
Its been a while since I read Marine Sniper, or Silent Warrior, I felt that Marine Sniper was less 3rd party, Silent Warrior presented way too much assumtion by the author. If I am not mistaken, the feather that Hathcock had in his boonie was found while he was running through a village or something. I am sure after a while he found some way to associate it as having any signifigance, but at the time, he saw it, and grabbed it.
As far as Hathcocks legendary status as a sniper, thats all on how folks remember him, and how the books are written. There are many folks with more kills, longer shots, mission stories...ect. What gave Hathcock his status is not just the shots he took. He participated in the early development of the USMC sniper program, training and employing techniques still used today. Its been stated that as far as shooting at a distance, Hathcock was on par with many others, his nack was being able to read wind. Not to mention he also shot and won in the Wimbelton Cup. The scope shot and behind the lines stalk may be in question, but with all the other prior mentioned accomplishments, I'd say he earned his fame.
Now a days, the recognition that snipers are getting is based off of the longest kill shot. But there is always a reference made to the 2500 yd kill Hathcock made.
Its been a while since I read Marine Sniper, or Silent Warrior, I felt that Marine Sniper was less 3rd party, Silent Warrior presented way too much assumtion by the author. If I am not mistaken, the feather that Hathcock had in his boonie was found while he was running through a village or something. I am sure after a while he found some way to associate it as having any signifigance, but at the time, he saw it, and grabbed it.
As far as Hathcocks legendary status as a sniper, thats all on how folks remember him, and how the books are written. There are many folks with more kills, longer shots, mission stories...ect. What gave Hathcock his status is not just the shots he took. He participated in the early development of the USMC sniper program, training and employing techniques still used today. Its been stated that as far as shooting at a distance, Hathcock was on par with many others, his nack was being able to read wind. Not to mention he also shot and won in the Wimbelton Cup. The scope shot and behind the lines stalk may be in question, but with all the other prior mentioned accomplishments, I'd say he earned his fame.
Now a days, the recognition that snipers are getting is based off of the longest kill shot. But there is always a reference made to the 2500 yd kill Hathcock made.
Re: Carlos's white feather
Found this interesting site. If you look at the bottom of WWII youll see several Russian female snipers.
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Disclaimer: This page is in no way intended to glorify the amount of people these soldiers have killed, it is intended to recognize the manner in which these soldiers excelled at accomplishing the misson assigned to them in a time of war.
The information on this page was obtained through historical documents, books and also personal contact via email and other means. I do what I can to verify personal claims, if you have any discrepancies and can verify them, please email me so I can correct the information.
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If you know of any other names to add to the list, or you would like to add your name, please email me!
Conflict
-----------------------
World War I
World War II
Korea
Vietnam
Grenada
Panama
Desert Storm
Somalia
Bosnia
Iraq (OIF, OEF, OND)
Afghanistan 2001+
Others
World War I
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Francis Pegahmagabow W.W. I Canada 378
Billy Sing W.W. I AIF (Australia) 150
Henry Norwest W.W. I Canada 115
Herbert W. McBride W.W. I Canada/U.S.A. 100+
Neville Methven W.W. I So. Africa 100
Johnson Paudash W.W. I Canada 88
Philip McDonald W.W. I Canada 70
Herman Davis W.W. I U.S.A. 60
P. Riel W.W. I Canada 30
S.D. Richey W.W. I Canada 13+
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
World War II
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Simo Hayha Winter War Finland 542
Ivan Sidorenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 500
Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 494
Ivan Nikolayevich Kulbertinov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 487
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 456
Mikhail Budenkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 437
Fyodor Matveevich Okhlopkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 429
Fyodor Djachenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 425
Vasilij Ivanovich Golosov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 422
Afanasy Gordienko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 417
Stepan Petrenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 412
Erwin Konig W.W. II Germany 400
Vasili Zaitsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 400
Pyotr Alexeyevich Goncharov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 380
Semen D. Nomokonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 367
Ivan Petrovich Antonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 362
Abdukhani Idrisov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 349
Philipp Yakovlevich Rubaho W.W. II U.S.S.R. 346
Matth�us Hetzenauer W.W. II Germany 345
Ivan Ivanovich Larkin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 340
Victor Ivanovich Medvedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 331
E. Nicolaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 324
Leonid Yakovlevich Butkevich W.W. II U.S.S.R. 315
Nikolai Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 315
Lyudmila M. Pavlichenko (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 309
Alexander Pavlovich Lebedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 307
Ivan Pavlovich Gorelikov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 305
Ivan Petrovich Antonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 302
Heinz Thorvald W.W. II Germany 300
Gennadij Iosifovich Velichko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Moisej Timofeyevich Usik W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Nataly V. Kovshova &
Maria Polivanova (Female team) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Ivan Filippovich Abdulov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 298
Yakov Mikhajlovich Smetnev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 279
Liba Rugova W.W. II U.S.S.R. 274
Anatolij Chekhov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 265
Zhambyl Evscheyevich Tulaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 262
Josef Sepp Allerberger W.W. II Germany 257
Fyodor Kuzmich Chegodaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 250
Ivan Ivanovich Bocharov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 248
Mikhail Ignatievich Belousov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 245
Maxim Passar W.W. II U.S.S.R. 237
David Teboevich Doev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 226
Vasilij Shalvovich Kvachantiradze W.W. II U.S.S.R. 215
Bruno Sutkus W.W. II Germany 209
Mikhail Stepanovich Sokhin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 202
Friedrich Pein W.W. II Germany 200
Noj Petrovich Adamia W.W. II U.S.S.R. 200
M.A. Abbasov W.W.II U.S.S.R. 200
Gefreiter Meyer W.W. II Germany 180
Yekaterina Zuranova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 155
Vladimir Ptchelinzev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 152
Inna Semyonovna Mudretsova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 143
Joseph Pilyushin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 136
Feodosy Smeljachkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
I. Merkulov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
H. Andruhaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
Oleh Dir W.W. II Germany 120
Tatiana Igantovna Kostyrina(F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 120
Janis Roze W.W. II U.S.S.R. 116
N.P. Petrova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 107
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 102
Yelizaveta Mironova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R 100+
Aliya Moldagulova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 91
Nina Lobkovskaya (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 89
Lidiya Gudovantseva (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 76
Helmut Wirnsberger W.W. II Germany 64
Alexandra Shlyakhova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 63
P. Grjaznov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 57
Roza Shanina (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 54
A.P.Medvedeva-Nazarkina (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 43
Marie Ljalkova (F) W.W. II Czech Army 30
James Bedford MacArthur W.W. II Canada 9
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Korea
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Zhang Taofang Korea China 214
Richard Crawford Korea U.S. Army 14
29*
Lowell Mason Korea U.S.M.C ?
Chester Hamilton Korea U.S. Army ?
Ian Robertson Korea A.I.F ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Vietnam
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Adelbert Waldron III Vietnam U.S. Army 109
Charles B. Mawhinney Vietnam U.S.M.C 103
Eric R. England Vietnam U.S.M.C 98
Carlos Hathcock Vietnam U.S.M.C 93
Ronnie Shinya Marshall Vietnam U.S. Army 77
Thomas R. Leonard Vietnam U.S.M.C. 74
Steve Suttles Vietnam U.S.M.C 63
Joseph T. Ward Vietnam U.S.M.C 63
George Filyaw Vietnam U.S.M.C 56
20*
Philip G. Moran Vietnam U.S. Army 53
Raymond W. Westphal Vietnam U.S.M.C 49
19*
Terry Mathis Vietnam U.S. Army 48
James C. Peters Vietnam U.S. Army 43
11*
T.R. Graves Vietnam U.S.M.C 43
Lynn Bushnell Vietnam U.S.M.C 43
Daniel L. Greene Vietnam U.S. Navy 42
12*
Joe York Vietnam U.S. Navy 42
Tom "Moose" Ferran Vietnam U.S.M.C 41
James Gularte Vietnam U.S.M.C 40
R. D. Bundy Vietnam U.S.M.C 40
Michael E. Duncan Vietnam U.S. Army 39
Chester Clarke Vietnam U.S. Army 39
William Lucas Vietnam
Panama U.S.M.C
U.S. Army 38
1
Bob Jones Vietnam U.S. Army 38
John M. Perry Vietnam U.S.M.C 37
5*
Dennis Oscier Vietnam U.S.M.C 36
20*
Bill E. Nation Vietnam U.S.M.C 35
Jay Taylor I Vietnam U.S.M.C 28
18*
Clifford L Wallace Vietnam U.S.M.C 27
Ed W. Eaton Vietnam U.S. Army 27
Craig McGary Vietnam U.S. Navy 26
8*
Mike Brewton Vietnam U.S. Army 23
Lloyd Crow Vietnam U.S.M.C. 23
Bobby J. Lee Vietnam U.S.M.C. 18
Craig Roberts Vietnam U.S.M.C. 18
35*
Ed Kugler Vietnam U.S.M.C. 17
Gary J. Brown Vietnam U.S. Navy 17
4*
Karl H. Grosshans Vietnam U.S.M.C 16
Greg Kraljev Vietnam U.S.M.C 15
Timothy Dunn Vietnam U.S.M.C 14
Thomas Ray Cohenour Vietnam U.S. Army 13
Tommy Cohenover Vietnam U.S. Army 13
Ron Szpond Vietnam U.S.M.C 12
12*
William B. Martin Vietnam U.S.M.C 12
John L. Brooks Vietnam U.S.M.C 11
6*
Gary Lefebvre Vietnam U.S.M.C 11
Bill Koch Vietnam U.S. Army 8
3*
Michael McMillan Vietnam U.S. Army 5
Gary M. White Vietnam U.S.M.C 4
5*
Gabriel J. Gradney Vietnam U.S.M.C 4
1*
David W. Lee Vietnam U.S. Army 3
4*
Alan Bruce Hartung Vietnam U.S.M.C 3
3*
Colin McGee Vietnam U.S.M.C 3
Robert Miles Vietnam U.S. Army 2
Ralph E. Stevenson Vietnam U.S. Army 1
Herb R. Coburn Vietnam U.S. Army 0
Roger D. King Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Bobby L. Taylor Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Jim Titus Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
George Filyaw Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Robert Elmer Bartruff Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Dave Leibensperger Vietnam U.S. Navy ?
Jeffrey S. Gunderson Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Dennis K. Stanely Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jim Saracco Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Gary Edwards Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
John West Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
William Lancaster Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Mel Bauch Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Ronald R. Willoughby Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Dennis Toncar Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Vaughn Nickell Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Anthony Spanopoulos Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Thomas Casey Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Thomas Elbert Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Robert P. Millgan Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Loren Kleppe Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Fofo Tutilie Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Steve Englebrecht Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Carroll Gene Davis Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
John Howell Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Harold Gene Moore Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Verne Smith Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Ken Barden Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
A.R.D. Bean Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Eddie Rackow Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Dennis "Buddy" Bolton Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Charles Monroe Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
George Nash Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Richard Prestwich Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Lawrence Tahler Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Ed Eaton Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Larry Eugene Bridges Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jarome Witt Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Fred W. Sanders Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Bill Wills Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Stan Watson Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
George Wilhite Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Calvin Brown Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Leo Perez Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Eric Henshall Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Pat Montgomery Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Alan Draper Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
William Moore Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Randall Josey Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Martin Berry Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
David Kovalac Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Ramon Mendoza Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Bill Balleza Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jim Carter Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Larry Billingslea Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Bob Prysbysz Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jimmy Flynn Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Rick Allison Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Grenada
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Scott Burkett Grenada U.S.M.C 3
4*
Patrick McFadden Grenada
Somalia U.S.M.C 3
3
John H. Hackenberg Grenada U.S.M.C 1
E. Tribull Grenada U.S.M.C 3*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Panama
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Jeffrey N Tucker Panama
Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
13
Bobby L. King Panama
DesertStorm U.S.M.C 3
2*
2
1*
Tweed Almond Panama U.S. Army 3
Robert Kirts Panama U.S. Army 4*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Desert Storm
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Frank Grieci Desert Storm U.S.M.C 15
Scott Dennison Desert Storm
Bosnia U.S. Army 14
2*
4
1*
Jeffrey N Tucker Panama
Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
13
Joseph McElheny Desert Storm U.S.M.C 13
Alexander K. Sheppard Desert Storm U.S.M.C 11
Robert H. Stiles Desert Storm U.S. Army 5
3*
Douglas Parker Desert Storm U.S.M.C 4
2*
Jose Macias Desert Storm U.S.M.C 4
Dave Dayter Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
Grady Snell Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
Bobby L. King Panama
DesertStorm U.S.M.C 3
2*
2
1*
Robert Rocha Desert Storm U.S.M.C 2
3*
Steven A Schirman Desert Storm U.S.M.C 2
Thomas P. Inglesby Desert Storm U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Somalia
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
John Fuger Somalia U.S.M.C 6
Cory Smith Somalia U.S.M.C 6
Stephen Tyson Somalia U.S.M.C 6
Chase Hamilton Somalia U.S.M.C 5
Patrick McFadden Grenada
Somalia U.S.M.C 3
3
Eldon Noble Somalia U.S.M.C 3
David E. Galloway Somalia U.S.M.C 3
Chris Mark Somalia U.S.M.C 2
Julio A. Garcia Somalia U.S.M.C 1
Bill Cook Somalia U.S.M.C 1*
John Henry Davis III Somalia U.S. Army 0
Gary I. Gordon Somalia U.S. Army ?
Randall D. Shughart Somalia U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Bosnia
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Scott Dennison Desert Storm
Bosnia U.S. Army 14
2*
4
1*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Iraq (OIF, OEF, OND)
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Timothy L. Kellner OIF U.S.Army 78
4*
Ian "Duke" Crune OIF/OEF U.S. SOCCOM 21
13*
Ethan Place OIF U.S.M.C 19
Jonathan "Juan" Warren OIF/OEF U.S. SOCCOM 18
15*
Randall Davis OIF U.S. Army 8
2*
Skyler Ford OEF U.S. Army 8
Spencer Hisatake & Ian Yee OIF U.S. Army 6
David ***** OEF U.K. Royal Marine Commandos 5
Ross ***** OEF U.K. Royal Marine Commandos 4
Ryan Mish OIF U.S. Army 3
1*
Matthew Pickar OIF U.S. Army 3
1*
Justin Cooper OIF U.S.M.C. 3
Ethan Caduff OIF U.S. Army 2
2*
Ryan Barna OIF U.S. Army 2
Christopher Lochner OIF U.S. Army 2
Benjamin Redus OIF U.S. Army 1
3*
Beau Babbitt OIF U.S. Army 1
Tyler A. Juden OIF U.S. Army ?
Steve Reichert OIF U.S.M.C ?
Gabriel Rodriguez OIF U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Afghanistan (2001+)
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Mark Osmond Afghanistan U.K. 44
Tom Potter Afghanistan U.K. 31
Nicholas Ranstad Afghanistan U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Others
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Gregory S. Bartlett Honduras U.S.M.C 5
Patrick Simpson Honduras U.S.M.C 2
3*
Robert K. Canfield Beruit U.S.M.C 2
Vincent Stampa Alba Italian Armored Force 2
1*
Jason Ferrand Liberia U.S.M.C 1
2*
Roger Griffith Liberia U.S.M.C 1
1*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Found this interesting site. If you look at the bottom of WWII youll see several Russian female snipers.
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Disclaimer: This page is in no way intended to glorify the amount of people these soldiers have killed, it is intended to recognize the manner in which these soldiers excelled at accomplishing the misson assigned to them in a time of war.
The information on this page was obtained through historical documents, books and also personal contact via email and other means. I do what I can to verify personal claims, if you have any discrepancies and can verify them, please email me so I can correct the information.
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If you know of any other names to add to the list, or you would like to add your name, please email me!
Conflict
-----------------------
World War I
World War II
Korea
Vietnam
Grenada
Panama
Desert Storm
Somalia
Bosnia
Iraq (OIF, OEF, OND)
Afghanistan 2001+
Others
World War I
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Francis Pegahmagabow W.W. I Canada 378
Billy Sing W.W. I AIF (Australia) 150
Henry Norwest W.W. I Canada 115
Herbert W. McBride W.W. I Canada/U.S.A. 100+
Neville Methven W.W. I So. Africa 100
Johnson Paudash W.W. I Canada 88
Philip McDonald W.W. I Canada 70
Herman Davis W.W. I U.S.A. 60
P. Riel W.W. I Canada 30
S.D. Richey W.W. I Canada 13+
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
World War II
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Simo Hayha Winter War Finland 542
Ivan Sidorenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 500
Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 494
Ivan Nikolayevich Kulbertinov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 487
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 456
Mikhail Budenkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 437
Fyodor Matveevich Okhlopkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 429
Fyodor Djachenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 425
Vasilij Ivanovich Golosov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 422
Afanasy Gordienko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 417
Stepan Petrenko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 412
Erwin Konig W.W. II Germany 400
Vasili Zaitsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 400
Pyotr Alexeyevich Goncharov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 380
Semen D. Nomokonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 367
Ivan Petrovich Antonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 362
Abdukhani Idrisov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 349
Philipp Yakovlevich Rubaho W.W. II U.S.S.R. 346
Matth�us Hetzenauer W.W. II Germany 345
Ivan Ivanovich Larkin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 340
Victor Ivanovich Medvedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 331
E. Nicolaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 324
Leonid Yakovlevich Butkevich W.W. II U.S.S.R. 315
Nikolai Ilyin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 315
Lyudmila M. Pavlichenko (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 309
Alexander Pavlovich Lebedev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 307
Ivan Pavlovich Gorelikov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 305
Ivan Petrovich Antonov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 302
Heinz Thorvald W.W. II Germany 300
Gennadij Iosifovich Velichko W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Moisej Timofeyevich Usik W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Nataly V. Kovshova &
Maria Polivanova (Female team) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 300
Ivan Filippovich Abdulov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 298
Yakov Mikhajlovich Smetnev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 279
Liba Rugova W.W. II U.S.S.R. 274
Anatolij Chekhov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 265
Zhambyl Evscheyevich Tulaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 262
Josef Sepp Allerberger W.W. II Germany 257
Fyodor Kuzmich Chegodaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 250
Ivan Ivanovich Bocharov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 248
Mikhail Ignatievich Belousov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 245
Maxim Passar W.W. II U.S.S.R. 237
David Teboevich Doev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 226
Vasilij Shalvovich Kvachantiradze W.W. II U.S.S.R. 215
Bruno Sutkus W.W. II Germany 209
Mikhail Stepanovich Sokhin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 202
Friedrich Pein W.W. II Germany 200
Noj Petrovich Adamia W.W. II U.S.S.R. 200
M.A. Abbasov W.W.II U.S.S.R. 200
Gefreiter Meyer W.W. II Germany 180
Yekaterina Zuranova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 155
Vladimir Ptchelinzev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 152
Inna Semyonovna Mudretsova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 143
Joseph Pilyushin W.W. II U.S.S.R. 136
Feodosy Smeljachkov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
I. Merkulov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
H. Andruhaev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 125
Oleh Dir W.W. II Germany 120
Tatiana Igantovna Kostyrina(F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 120
Janis Roze W.W. II U.S.S.R. 116
N.P. Petrova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 107
V. N. Pchelintsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 102
Yelizaveta Mironova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R 100+
Aliya Moldagulova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 91
Nina Lobkovskaya (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 89
Lidiya Gudovantseva (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 76
Helmut Wirnsberger W.W. II Germany 64
Alexandra Shlyakhova (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 63
P. Grjaznov W.W. II U.S.S.R. 57
Roza Shanina (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 54
A.P.Medvedeva-Nazarkina (F) W.W. II U.S.S.R. 43
Marie Ljalkova (F) W.W. II Czech Army 30
James Bedford MacArthur W.W. II Canada 9
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Korea
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Zhang Taofang Korea China 214
Richard Crawford Korea U.S. Army 14
29*
Lowell Mason Korea U.S.M.C ?
Chester Hamilton Korea U.S. Army ?
Ian Robertson Korea A.I.F ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Vietnam
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Adelbert Waldron III Vietnam U.S. Army 109
Charles B. Mawhinney Vietnam U.S.M.C 103
Eric R. England Vietnam U.S.M.C 98
Carlos Hathcock Vietnam U.S.M.C 93
Ronnie Shinya Marshall Vietnam U.S. Army 77
Thomas R. Leonard Vietnam U.S.M.C. 74
Steve Suttles Vietnam U.S.M.C 63
Joseph T. Ward Vietnam U.S.M.C 63
George Filyaw Vietnam U.S.M.C 56
20*
Philip G. Moran Vietnam U.S. Army 53
Raymond W. Westphal Vietnam U.S.M.C 49
19*
Terry Mathis Vietnam U.S. Army 48
James C. Peters Vietnam U.S. Army 43
11*
T.R. Graves Vietnam U.S.M.C 43
Lynn Bushnell Vietnam U.S.M.C 43
Daniel L. Greene Vietnam U.S. Navy 42
12*
Joe York Vietnam U.S. Navy 42
Tom "Moose" Ferran Vietnam U.S.M.C 41
James Gularte Vietnam U.S.M.C 40
R. D. Bundy Vietnam U.S.M.C 40
Michael E. Duncan Vietnam U.S. Army 39
Chester Clarke Vietnam U.S. Army 39
William Lucas Vietnam
Panama U.S.M.C
U.S. Army 38
1
Bob Jones Vietnam U.S. Army 38
John M. Perry Vietnam U.S.M.C 37
5*
Dennis Oscier Vietnam U.S.M.C 36
20*
Bill E. Nation Vietnam U.S.M.C 35
Jay Taylor I Vietnam U.S.M.C 28
18*
Clifford L Wallace Vietnam U.S.M.C 27
Ed W. Eaton Vietnam U.S. Army 27
Craig McGary Vietnam U.S. Navy 26
8*
Mike Brewton Vietnam U.S. Army 23
Lloyd Crow Vietnam U.S.M.C. 23
Bobby J. Lee Vietnam U.S.M.C. 18
Craig Roberts Vietnam U.S.M.C. 18
35*
Ed Kugler Vietnam U.S.M.C. 17
Gary J. Brown Vietnam U.S. Navy 17
4*
Karl H. Grosshans Vietnam U.S.M.C 16
Greg Kraljev Vietnam U.S.M.C 15
Timothy Dunn Vietnam U.S.M.C 14
Thomas Ray Cohenour Vietnam U.S. Army 13
Tommy Cohenover Vietnam U.S. Army 13
Ron Szpond Vietnam U.S.M.C 12
12*
William B. Martin Vietnam U.S.M.C 12
John L. Brooks Vietnam U.S.M.C 11
6*
Gary Lefebvre Vietnam U.S.M.C 11
Bill Koch Vietnam U.S. Army 8
3*
Michael McMillan Vietnam U.S. Army 5
Gary M. White Vietnam U.S.M.C 4
5*
Gabriel J. Gradney Vietnam U.S.M.C 4
1*
David W. Lee Vietnam U.S. Army 3
4*
Alan Bruce Hartung Vietnam U.S.M.C 3
3*
Colin McGee Vietnam U.S.M.C 3
Robert Miles Vietnam U.S. Army 2
Ralph E. Stevenson Vietnam U.S. Army 1
Herb R. Coburn Vietnam U.S. Army 0
Roger D. King Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Bobby L. Taylor Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Jim Titus Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
George Filyaw Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Robert Elmer Bartruff Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Dave Leibensperger Vietnam U.S. Navy ?
Jeffrey S. Gunderson Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Dennis K. Stanely Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jim Saracco Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Gary Edwards Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
John West Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
William Lancaster Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Mel Bauch Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Ronald R. Willoughby Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Dennis Toncar Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Vaughn Nickell Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Anthony Spanopoulos Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Thomas Casey Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Thomas Elbert Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Robert P. Millgan Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Loren Kleppe Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Fofo Tutilie Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Steve Englebrecht Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Carroll Gene Davis Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
John Howell Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Harold Gene Moore Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Verne Smith Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Ken Barden Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
A.R.D. Bean Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Eddie Rackow Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Dennis "Buddy" Bolton Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Charles Monroe Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
George Nash Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Richard Prestwich Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Lawrence Tahler Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Ed Eaton Vietnam U.S. Army ?
Larry Eugene Bridges Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jarome Witt Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Fred W. Sanders Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Bill Wills Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Stan Watson Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
George Wilhite Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Calvin Brown Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Leo Perez Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Eric Henshall Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Pat Montgomery Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Alan Draper Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
William Moore Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Randall Josey Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Martin Berry Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
David Kovalac Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Ramon Mendoza Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Bill Balleza Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jim Carter Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Larry Billingslea Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Bob Prysbysz Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Jimmy Flynn Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
Rick Allison Vietnam U.S.M.C ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Grenada
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Scott Burkett Grenada U.S.M.C 3
4*
Patrick McFadden Grenada
Somalia U.S.M.C 3
3
John H. Hackenberg Grenada U.S.M.C 1
E. Tribull Grenada U.S.M.C 3*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Panama
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Jeffrey N Tucker Panama
Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
13
Bobby L. King Panama
DesertStorm U.S.M.C 3
2*
2
1*
Tweed Almond Panama U.S. Army 3
Robert Kirts Panama U.S. Army 4*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Desert Storm
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Frank Grieci Desert Storm U.S.M.C 15
Scott Dennison Desert Storm
Bosnia U.S. Army 14
2*
4
1*
Jeffrey N Tucker Panama
Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
13
Joseph McElheny Desert Storm U.S.M.C 13
Alexander K. Sheppard Desert Storm U.S.M.C 11
Robert H. Stiles Desert Storm U.S. Army 5
3*
Douglas Parker Desert Storm U.S.M.C 4
2*
Jose Macias Desert Storm U.S.M.C 4
Dave Dayter Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
Grady Snell Desert Storm U.S.M.C 3
Bobby L. King Panama
DesertStorm U.S.M.C 3
2*
2
1*
Robert Rocha Desert Storm U.S.M.C 2
3*
Steven A Schirman Desert Storm U.S.M.C 2
Thomas P. Inglesby Desert Storm U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Somalia
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
John Fuger Somalia U.S.M.C 6
Cory Smith Somalia U.S.M.C 6
Stephen Tyson Somalia U.S.M.C 6
Chase Hamilton Somalia U.S.M.C 5
Patrick McFadden Grenada
Somalia U.S.M.C 3
3
Eldon Noble Somalia U.S.M.C 3
David E. Galloway Somalia U.S.M.C 3
Chris Mark Somalia U.S.M.C 2
Julio A. Garcia Somalia U.S.M.C 1
Bill Cook Somalia U.S.M.C 1*
John Henry Davis III Somalia U.S. Army 0
Gary I. Gordon Somalia U.S. Army ?
Randall D. Shughart Somalia U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Bosnia
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Scott Dennison Desert Storm
Bosnia U.S. Army 14
2*
4
1*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Iraq (OIF, OEF, OND)
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Timothy L. Kellner OIF U.S.Army 78
4*
Ian "Duke" Crune OIF/OEF U.S. SOCCOM 21
13*
Ethan Place OIF U.S.M.C 19
Jonathan "Juan" Warren OIF/OEF U.S. SOCCOM 18
15*
Randall Davis OIF U.S. Army 8
2*
Skyler Ford OEF U.S. Army 8
Spencer Hisatake & Ian Yee OIF U.S. Army 6
David ***** OEF U.K. Royal Marine Commandos 5
Ross ***** OEF U.K. Royal Marine Commandos 4
Ryan Mish OIF U.S. Army 3
1*
Matthew Pickar OIF U.S. Army 3
1*
Justin Cooper OIF U.S.M.C. 3
Ethan Caduff OIF U.S. Army 2
2*
Ryan Barna OIF U.S. Army 2
Christopher Lochner OIF U.S. Army 2
Benjamin Redus OIF U.S. Army 1
3*
Beau Babbitt OIF U.S. Army 1
Tyler A. Juden OIF U.S. Army ?
Steve Reichert OIF U.S.M.C ?
Gabriel Rodriguez OIF U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Afghanistan (2001+)
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Mark Osmond Afghanistan U.K. 44
Tom Potter Afghanistan U.K. 31
Nicholas Ranstad Afghanistan U.S. Army ?
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Others
Name Conflict Service Branch Kills
Gregory S. Bartlett Honduras U.S.M.C 5
Patrick Simpson Honduras U.S.M.C 2
3*
Robert K. Canfield Beruit U.S.M.C 2
Vincent Stampa Alba Italian Armored Force 2
1*
Jason Ferrand Liberia U.S.M.C 1
2*
Roger Griffith Liberia U.S.M.C 1
1*
* denotes unconfirmed kills (F) denotes Female sniper
Re: Carlos's white feather
So back on topic here, Carlos said in Vietnam he didn't care about the body count.
Russians have extremely high counts, Stalingrad, etc etc...but they also lost more snipers than most country's did.
The white feather:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As they cautiously walked to the forest's edge and peered from behind it's dense cover, Hathcock scrambled to where the body lay and snatched the rifle. He turned to retreat quickly when he noticed a broad, white feather, three inches long, lying at his feet. The sight of it reminded him of the white sea bird that he watched fly over this valley at sunrise.
..
..
It might well have been a feather dropped by a chicken that had strayed to that far end of the community, but for Hathcock, the white birds of the morning seemed a more meaningful source.
</div></div>
Lot of people get their panties in a wad because of this book, for me I was just curious wht happened to the feather. John Culbertson really goes out of his way, but stops short of calling Hathcock a liar. Most of his books are negative reading though - always complaining about something.
As for Adelbert Waldron III it is said he was flown to hilltops, dropped off and shot from the hills, and then picked up - no stalking required - but I wasn't there so I can't say.
I just know that because of Carlos Hathcock the USMC has a fine sniping program that it might not otherwise have.
Body count - not politically correct- and you don't see body counts coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan being made public, but you DO see the "Longest" shot being made.
I say the longest shot made is 17 miles, about the range of a 155 howitzer.
So back on topic here, Carlos said in Vietnam he didn't care about the body count.
Russians have extremely high counts, Stalingrad, etc etc...but they also lost more snipers than most country's did.
The white feather:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As they cautiously walked to the forest's edge and peered from behind it's dense cover, Hathcock scrambled to where the body lay and snatched the rifle. He turned to retreat quickly when he noticed a broad, white feather, three inches long, lying at his feet. The sight of it reminded him of the white sea bird that he watched fly over this valley at sunrise.
..
..
It might well have been a feather dropped by a chicken that had strayed to that far end of the community, but for Hathcock, the white birds of the morning seemed a more meaningful source.
</div></div>
Lot of people get their panties in a wad because of this book, for me I was just curious wht happened to the feather. John Culbertson really goes out of his way, but stops short of calling Hathcock a liar. Most of his books are negative reading though - always complaining about something.
As for Adelbert Waldron III it is said he was flown to hilltops, dropped off and shot from the hills, and then picked up - no stalking required - but I wasn't there so I can't say.
I just know that because of Carlos Hathcock the USMC has a fine sniping program that it might not otherwise have.
Body count - not politically correct- and you don't see body counts coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan being made public, but you DO see the "Longest" shot being made.
I say the longest shot made is 17 miles, about the range of a 155 howitzer.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He participated in the early development of the USMC sniper program</div></div>
This is gonna start a fuss but history is history.
Read the book "United States Army Marksmanship Unit 1956-2006"
Its about the 50 year aniversity of the Amry Marksmanship Unit.
Post Vietnam the military was winding down, including sniper programs. It was the AMU that kept it going and when the USMC wanted to start their program, like everyone else in the early to mid 70s sent their cadre to the AMU Sniper School. This includes the FBI and SS.
My Granddaughter did a report in school about the history of sniping in the military. In part of her research we contacted the AMU about their program. This is a partial response from the XO of the AMU:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The course
was taught by members of the USAMU, primarily the Service Rifle Team.
Many/most of that team had deployed to Viet Nam and had served as
snipers. USAMU's responsibility to deliver that course ended in the late 80's. With the Viet Nam war, a thing of the past, the Army was downsizing. With that the USAMU lost many TDA slots that had gone towards the cadre of our course. The Sniper program is now taught in total by the 197th Infantry Brigade, located at Ft. Bennning. We did have several USMC personnel attend the course as well as individuals from most branches of the service.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He participated in the early development of the USMC sniper program</div></div>
This is gonna start a fuss but history is history.
Read the book "United States Army Marksmanship Unit 1956-2006"
Its about the 50 year aniversity of the Amry Marksmanship Unit.
Post Vietnam the military was winding down, including sniper programs. It was the AMU that kept it going and when the USMC wanted to start their program, like everyone else in the early to mid 70s sent their cadre to the AMU Sniper School. This includes the FBI and SS.
My Granddaughter did a report in school about the history of sniping in the military. In part of her research we contacted the AMU about their program. This is a partial response from the XO of the AMU:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The course
was taught by members of the USAMU, primarily the Service Rifle Team.
Many/most of that team had deployed to Viet Nam and had served as
snipers. USAMU's responsibility to deliver that course ended in the late 80's. With the Viet Nam war, a thing of the past, the Army was downsizing. With that the USAMU lost many TDA slots that had gone towards the cadre of our course. The Sniper program is now taught in total by the 197th Infantry Brigade, located at Ft. Bennning. We did have several USMC personnel attend the course as well as individuals from most branches of the service.</div></div>
Re: Carlos's white feather
I only new Carlos as a friend and nothing else, body count missions ect ect were never talked abt that much and only if he spoke abt them first. People are going to say what they want abt him because he is not with us to debate them but the Carlos i new was not a person to debate much. He was a very kind respectful, quiet and enjoyed life the best he could and also enjoyed eating some cat fish. That is the Carlos i remember. MM
I only new Carlos as a friend and nothing else, body count missions ect ect were never talked abt that much and only if he spoke abt them first. People are going to say what they want abt him because he is not with us to debate them but the Carlos i new was not a person to debate much. He was a very kind respectful, quiet and enjoyed life the best he could and also enjoyed eating some cat fish. That is the Carlos i remember. MM
Re: Carlos's white feather
it's Carlos' white feather by the way, not Carlos's
it's Carlos' white feather by the way, not Carlos's
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only new Carlos as a friend and nothing else, body count missions ect ect were never talked abt that much and only if he spoke abt them first. People are going to say what they want abt him because he is not with us to debate them but the Carlos i new was not a person to debate much. He was a very kind respectful, quiet and enjoyed life the best he could and also enjoyed eating some cat fish. That is the Carlon i remember. MM </div></div>
I only met him once and as I mentioned, too young to know what he did.
But I remembered what he said, carried that through my smallbore matches, into Highpower 15 years later...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mexican match</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I only new Carlos as a friend and nothing else, body count missions ect ect were never talked abt that much and only if he spoke abt them first. People are going to say what they want abt him because he is not with us to debate them but the Carlos i new was not a person to debate much. He was a very kind respectful, quiet and enjoyed life the best he could and also enjoyed eating some cat fish. That is the Carlon i remember. MM </div></div>
I only met him once and as I mentioned, too young to know what he did.
But I remembered what he said, carried that through my smallbore matches, into Highpower 15 years later...
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He participated in the early development of the USMC sniper program</div></div>
This is gonna start a fuss but history is history.
</div></div>
I wasnt trying to say he founded it or anything. You are correct that when WW2 ended, the USMC did not put much into keeping an active sniper program around. In fact it has been noted that when the need was seen for snipers towards the beginning of Vietnam, that many of the soldiers used WW2 manuals to employ techniques, many of which were not appropriate. The AMU, and any other resource they could get, was used. The books written on Hathcock told, not just what he went through, but all the other Marines dealing with the same issue.
While there are others that contributed, on a large scale, to the program, Hathcock is considered one of those contributors. Even after his career in the Corp, he continued to offer training and services to LE and other military units, despite his health. He still even continued to compete after his injuries.
History considers him a hero.
In the words of Capt. Kirk "Who am I to argue with history?" -Star Trek Generations
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He participated in the early development of the USMC sniper program</div></div>
This is gonna start a fuss but history is history.
</div></div>
I wasnt trying to say he founded it or anything. You are correct that when WW2 ended, the USMC did not put much into keeping an active sniper program around. In fact it has been noted that when the need was seen for snipers towards the beginning of Vietnam, that many of the soldiers used WW2 manuals to employ techniques, many of which were not appropriate. The AMU, and any other resource they could get, was used. The books written on Hathcock told, not just what he went through, but all the other Marines dealing with the same issue.
While there are others that contributed, on a large scale, to the program, Hathcock is considered one of those contributors. Even after his career in the Corp, he continued to offer training and services to LE and other military units, despite his health. He still even continued to compete after his injuries.
History considers him a hero.
In the words of Capt. Kirk "Who am I to argue with history?" -Star Trek Generations
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking of "army pukes", guess no one has heard of Adelbert Waldron III </div></div>
As always, much depends, on how any war is going in the public's eyes. Perception, Facts an Fiction are all used as a means to a predetermined end game.
FWIW, Waldron's real numbers were in-fact higher, as only those within bounds were counted. </div></div>
His numbers were way higher because he shot most of his in free fire zones and shot anything that moved. 113 in five (5) months in 1969. That caused an early end of tour and command to play down his activities.
He was not well liked by most of the AMU members who worked the RVN Sniper School, or the large numbers of Snipers from RVN who ended up settling around Benning.
Some of us even remember him very quietly working with Mitchell Werbell/Sionics/Powder Springs, GA after his tours.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking of "army pukes", guess no one has heard of Adelbert Waldron III </div></div>
As always, much depends, on how any war is going in the public's eyes. Perception, Facts an Fiction are all used as a means to a predetermined end game.
FWIW, Waldron's real numbers were in-fact higher, as only those within bounds were counted. </div></div>
His numbers were way higher because he shot most of his in free fire zones and shot anything that moved. 113 in five (5) months in 1969. That caused an early end of tour and command to play down his activities.
He was not well liked by most of the AMU members who worked the RVN Sniper School, or the large numbers of Snipers from RVN who ended up settling around Benning.
Some of us even remember him very quietly working with Mitchell Werbell/Sionics/Powder Springs, GA after his tours.
Re: Carlos's white feather
When the Coetrps decided to get and keep a intensive and selective S/S program going they used a variety of sources for input. The M40A1 and the Unertl 10x USMC Sniper were decided on and had to be contracted. The skills decided upon came from a variety of sources, including McBride from WW I as well as WW II and Korea and Vietnam experience. Fieldcraft also came from avariety of sources. The Germans had quite a Sniper program inWW that stressed Camoflage too.
But deciding what was rquired, putting it all together in a training cycle that allowed no inadequacy was significant. hen i went through the School it was in Hawaii, and there was no existing school there. We had two Quantico S/SIS grads, including the LT OIC, and 3 other S/S's. The school was 11 weeks. 18 select started, all with a couple years in the grunts under their belts and high IQs. Many of us had been through the Brigades SULC school already. We were all LCpl's or Cpl's. We started 18 and graduated 11. You got one chance on each academic test and marksmanship, and two chances for Practical application tests like stalks. you had to pass at least once. after the school it was shut down and the LT went to the Recon Plt for the BLT (he was a rifle plt Co before).
A year and a half later another school was formed. The fact that the S/S Instructor School and the Division level schools, like ours, were able to be created and staffed and produced fully qualified people was a great accomplishment.
The Army had a whole differnt utilization of Snipers. Army Snipers had a much shorter school that focused heavily on marksmanship with the M21. They were parts of Rifle Plt's and had assignments in their operations and in assaults. they were more like "designated marksmen".
The use of Marine scout/Snipers in Direct and General Support of operations was very different. we worked in 2 man teams, and worked well ahead of line units. When they attacked a objective we were already here, had it under observation, identified how it was defended and with what, and were on to take out crew served weapons during the assault. We may use several S/S teams to do it and to obstruct withdrawl, reinforcment, and counterattacks. We carried radios and were very skilled at call for fire and air. We all had been trained in "how the big fucking arrows worked" so we could assist in making their missions successful. we didn't walk point, and didn't wear helmets or body armor, except in Beruit.
Officers were quickly taught, usually by attached S/S teams, that the best way to use us was to give their op order with us present, and at the end we will tell them how we could best support the mission with our capability. They were always very pleased to have skilled eyes on before they even stepped off, and we rovided great security day and night by setting up at choke points to identify approaching trouble.
But the best weapon we had was a radio. You could get air strikes or naval gunfire by relay with it, and call for organic supporting arms yourself.
I have no doubt that we were well trained and schooled that I am sure most of us could have successfully led a Rifle Company with all supporting arms and assets to accomplish almost any mission. Cpls and Sgts able to do that, with confidence.
There were only 8 billets in a Bn then, and few units had all filled. It was just too hard to make the grade. The 8541 MOS was really something to be proud of. Really top of the Food Chain. And that was only a few years after the S/S program started. A extraordinary accomplishment for the Corps.
When the Coetrps decided to get and keep a intensive and selective S/S program going they used a variety of sources for input. The M40A1 and the Unertl 10x USMC Sniper were decided on and had to be contracted. The skills decided upon came from a variety of sources, including McBride from WW I as well as WW II and Korea and Vietnam experience. Fieldcraft also came from avariety of sources. The Germans had quite a Sniper program inWW that stressed Camoflage too.
But deciding what was rquired, putting it all together in a training cycle that allowed no inadequacy was significant. hen i went through the School it was in Hawaii, and there was no existing school there. We had two Quantico S/SIS grads, including the LT OIC, and 3 other S/S's. The school was 11 weeks. 18 select started, all with a couple years in the grunts under their belts and high IQs. Many of us had been through the Brigades SULC school already. We were all LCpl's or Cpl's. We started 18 and graduated 11. You got one chance on each academic test and marksmanship, and two chances for Practical application tests like stalks. you had to pass at least once. after the school it was shut down and the LT went to the Recon Plt for the BLT (he was a rifle plt Co before).
A year and a half later another school was formed. The fact that the S/S Instructor School and the Division level schools, like ours, were able to be created and staffed and produced fully qualified people was a great accomplishment.
The Army had a whole differnt utilization of Snipers. Army Snipers had a much shorter school that focused heavily on marksmanship with the M21. They were parts of Rifle Plt's and had assignments in their operations and in assaults. they were more like "designated marksmen".
The use of Marine scout/Snipers in Direct and General Support of operations was very different. we worked in 2 man teams, and worked well ahead of line units. When they attacked a objective we were already here, had it under observation, identified how it was defended and with what, and were on to take out crew served weapons during the assault. We may use several S/S teams to do it and to obstruct withdrawl, reinforcment, and counterattacks. We carried radios and were very skilled at call for fire and air. We all had been trained in "how the big fucking arrows worked" so we could assist in making their missions successful. we didn't walk point, and didn't wear helmets or body armor, except in Beruit.
Officers were quickly taught, usually by attached S/S teams, that the best way to use us was to give their op order with us present, and at the end we will tell them how we could best support the mission with our capability. They were always very pleased to have skilled eyes on before they even stepped off, and we rovided great security day and night by setting up at choke points to identify approaching trouble.
But the best weapon we had was a radio. You could get air strikes or naval gunfire by relay with it, and call for organic supporting arms yourself.
I have no doubt that we were well trained and schooled that I am sure most of us could have successfully led a Rifle Company with all supporting arms and assets to accomplish almost any mission. Cpls and Sgts able to do that, with confidence.
There were only 8 billets in a Bn then, and few units had all filled. It was just too hard to make the grade. The 8541 MOS was really something to be proud of. Really top of the Food Chain. And that was only a few years after the S/S program started. A extraordinary accomplishment for the Corps.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">His numbers were way higher because he shot most of his in free fire zones and shot anything that moved. </div></div>
He was not the first nor will he be the last, to have tasks removed from his 201, but kept in other places of truth.
Uncle is the one that needed a bitch slap, as op orders were very clear. Like many places we played tag, it was see the enemy, kill the enemy. Of course defining "Enemy" is subjective when kids are trying to kill ya, also. When op order results do not fit that days agenda, we both know who takes the hit when the tales are legit or not.
John K. Singlaub,... I've often thought PC was born right there. Funny his tactics were not an issue during WW II or Korea. Many things changed in the 60's, an so goes the sheep's perception of reality.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">His numbers were way higher because he shot most of his in free fire zones and shot anything that moved. </div></div>
He was not the first nor will he be the last, to have tasks removed from his 201, but kept in other places of truth.
Uncle is the one that needed a bitch slap, as op orders were very clear. Like many places we played tag, it was see the enemy, kill the enemy. Of course defining "Enemy" is subjective when kids are trying to kill ya, also. When op order results do not fit that days agenda, we both know who takes the hit when the tales are legit or not.
John K. Singlaub,... I've often thought PC was born right there. Funny his tactics were not an issue during WW II or Korea. Many things changed in the 60's, an so goes the sheep's perception of reality.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Army had a whole differnt utilization of Snipers. Army Snipers had a much shorter school that focused heavily on marksmanship with the M21. They were parts of Rifle Plt's and had assignments in their operations and in assaults. they were more like "designated marksmen".</div></div>
Part of that I agree with. I'm not sure how it was done in the Delta, I was in I Corp.
The M21s didn't come about until the later years of the war. The army snipers I saw (67-68) were using M-70s and 'A4s, or even M15a1s. Most of which were not school trained.
You mentioned the SS being recon. Each Army BN had its own Recon Plt. which did the recon taske.
My unit only had a "sniper" one time that I remember, He came to us with a Modle 70 and didn't stay long. Don't remember why or what he did.
Most of such work in my unit consisted of stay behind operations. For example, we go re-supplied every 5-7 days. As soldiers do we left a lot of stuff behind (like who whats to pack ham and lima beans}. We'd leave a couple guys (not school trained snipers) behind with Starlight Scopes mounted on M16a2s. They were our best riflemen. Normally they laid out about 200-300 yards away and were quite effective. They would strike and "de de" back to the unit.
We also used them on trails leading to and from an ambush site.
We left the Body Count BS the the BN commander's proaganda people.
I guess I'm of the group that believes sniper schools should concentrate on Marksmanship. Field Craft, Recon, Patroling, calling for and directiing arty, is the infantryman's job.
When I went to sniper school (AMU) I discussed this with the instructors. Their thought was it was easier to teach a shooter to soldier, then teach a soldier to shoot.
I also don't believe you need to go to sniper school to be a sniper.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Army had a whole differnt utilization of Snipers. Army Snipers had a much shorter school that focused heavily on marksmanship with the M21. They were parts of Rifle Plt's and had assignments in their operations and in assaults. they were more like "designated marksmen".</div></div>
Part of that I agree with. I'm not sure how it was done in the Delta, I was in I Corp.
The M21s didn't come about until the later years of the war. The army snipers I saw (67-68) were using M-70s and 'A4s, or even M15a1s. Most of which were not school trained.
You mentioned the SS being recon. Each Army BN had its own Recon Plt. which did the recon taske.
My unit only had a "sniper" one time that I remember, He came to us with a Modle 70 and didn't stay long. Don't remember why or what he did.
Most of such work in my unit consisted of stay behind operations. For example, we go re-supplied every 5-7 days. As soldiers do we left a lot of stuff behind (like who whats to pack ham and lima beans}. We'd leave a couple guys (not school trained snipers) behind with Starlight Scopes mounted on M16a2s. They were our best riflemen. Normally they laid out about 200-300 yards away and were quite effective. They would strike and "de de" back to the unit.
We also used them on trails leading to and from an ambush site.
We left the Body Count BS the the BN commander's proaganda people.
I guess I'm of the group that believes sniper schools should concentrate on Marksmanship. Field Craft, Recon, Patroling, calling for and directiing arty, is the infantryman's job.
When I went to sniper school (AMU) I discussed this with the instructors. Their thought was it was easier to teach a shooter to soldier, then teach a soldier to shoot.
I also don't believe you need to go to sniper school to be a sniper.
Re: Carlos's white feather
Well Gunfighter, you have the attitude typical of guys who lay on manicured grass and shoot paper. Very common. You are just the kind of military people we had to work around to get things done.
"Fieldcraft" is something used by those who have to actually leave a perimiter to seek out the enemy and deny them the initiative and self-confidence needed to be aggressive. Nothing will demoralize a group than thinking they are safe and having one them have his head explode in their midst, without anybody knowing where the shot came from.
In a Marine S/S team, the Sniper carried the M40A1, and the team leader carried a M16A1, later A2, and a AN/PVS2 or later AN/PVS4, binos, spotting scope, compass, map, radio, and shackle sheets. We carried as much rations and water as we needed. Both carried knives and pistols.
"Snipers" and "Scouts" are two different roles in the Army. Only the Marines have "Scout/Snipers". The marines also attach a Recon Platoon to a Battalion Landing Team. There were occasions where in training we found ourselves not only looking at the same objective, but chose the same spot to do it from!
Our Snipers also coordinated with the Recon guys to provide more coverage with a additional capability (the Sniper) and to cover them on their mission in, on, and out. They would also provide security for us when needed. They taught us how to work with them in the IBS and later MARS boats, so we weren't just supercargo. We rappeled from helos and SPIE rigged with them sometimes in training too.
We weren't Amphib Recon trained, though several of our guys did go over to the Recon Co/Plt when we had a new batch come in we actually were overstaffed, the only time I ever saw that. They took the Recon test and went to ARS just like the others.
The fact that you don't understand and are contempuous of the versatility and capability of Scout/Snipers, and it seems the Recon guys too, shows through.
Personally, we were contemptuous of Benchrest shooters. The Army has it's AMU, where that is all you do, lay on mats on the grass and shoot paper. That's your job in the Army for a decade or more.
There is little in common, in training, experience, capability, or attitude between a guy like you, Mr. Distinguished Shooter, and us. To us, you are just a guy who pulls a trigger. You wouldn't have made selection from what I have already noted, regardless of your Rifle Range score. We didn't have, or need somebody to read a map or compass for us, and we understood the big fucking arrows in addition to ballistic tables. That radio we had allowed us o direct accurate observed Mortars, Arty, Helo Gunships, strike Air, or even naval gunfire by relaying through the FSCC.we had all the freqs and call signs.
With us in the game the mission would be more successful with less friendly casualties. Our observations about enemy numbers, locations, equipment, weapons, and activity, movements, and capabiliyies was is indespensible to a intelligent commander. Our Officer is actualy the unit S-2. And our reports had to be accurate, including "Body Counts", and why we targeted those specific individuals, preferably unit leaders or crew served people. You shoot the sight off a mortar or artillery piece you made a serious impact on them too.
It's a lot different than the Rifle Range. This isn't 1967. the Marine S/S program didn't come on line until I think about 78 or 79. I did it in 82.
We afre of the opinion you are much more likely to teach a good marine to shoot better, but not able to teach a dumb marine (or soldier) who can shoot to be a Scout/Sniper.
What was funny is in my time unit commanders didnt send their best shooters, including snipers, to matches. They were afraid that they would get picked up if they did well and they would lose them. They told me so openly.
Well Gunfighter, you have the attitude typical of guys who lay on manicured grass and shoot paper. Very common. You are just the kind of military people we had to work around to get things done.
"Fieldcraft" is something used by those who have to actually leave a perimiter to seek out the enemy and deny them the initiative and self-confidence needed to be aggressive. Nothing will demoralize a group than thinking they are safe and having one them have his head explode in their midst, without anybody knowing where the shot came from.
In a Marine S/S team, the Sniper carried the M40A1, and the team leader carried a M16A1, later A2, and a AN/PVS2 or later AN/PVS4, binos, spotting scope, compass, map, radio, and shackle sheets. We carried as much rations and water as we needed. Both carried knives and pistols.
"Snipers" and "Scouts" are two different roles in the Army. Only the Marines have "Scout/Snipers". The marines also attach a Recon Platoon to a Battalion Landing Team. There were occasions where in training we found ourselves not only looking at the same objective, but chose the same spot to do it from!
Our Snipers also coordinated with the Recon guys to provide more coverage with a additional capability (the Sniper) and to cover them on their mission in, on, and out. They would also provide security for us when needed. They taught us how to work with them in the IBS and later MARS boats, so we weren't just supercargo. We rappeled from helos and SPIE rigged with them sometimes in training too.
We weren't Amphib Recon trained, though several of our guys did go over to the Recon Co/Plt when we had a new batch come in we actually were overstaffed, the only time I ever saw that. They took the Recon test and went to ARS just like the others.
The fact that you don't understand and are contempuous of the versatility and capability of Scout/Snipers, and it seems the Recon guys too, shows through.
Personally, we were contemptuous of Benchrest shooters. The Army has it's AMU, where that is all you do, lay on mats on the grass and shoot paper. That's your job in the Army for a decade or more.
There is little in common, in training, experience, capability, or attitude between a guy like you, Mr. Distinguished Shooter, and us. To us, you are just a guy who pulls a trigger. You wouldn't have made selection from what I have already noted, regardless of your Rifle Range score. We didn't have, or need somebody to read a map or compass for us, and we understood the big fucking arrows in addition to ballistic tables. That radio we had allowed us o direct accurate observed Mortars, Arty, Helo Gunships, strike Air, or even naval gunfire by relaying through the FSCC.we had all the freqs and call signs.
With us in the game the mission would be more successful with less friendly casualties. Our observations about enemy numbers, locations, equipment, weapons, and activity, movements, and capabiliyies was is indespensible to a intelligent commander. Our Officer is actualy the unit S-2. And our reports had to be accurate, including "Body Counts", and why we targeted those specific individuals, preferably unit leaders or crew served people. You shoot the sight off a mortar or artillery piece you made a serious impact on them too.
It's a lot different than the Rifle Range. This isn't 1967. the Marine S/S program didn't come on line until I think about 78 or 79. I did it in 82.
We afre of the opinion you are much more likely to teach a good marine to shoot better, but not able to teach a dumb marine (or soldier) who can shoot to be a Scout/Sniper.
What was funny is in my time unit commanders didnt send their best shooters, including snipers, to matches. They were afraid that they would get picked up if they did well and they would lose them. They told me so openly.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So back on topic here, Carlos said in Vietnam he didn't care about the body count.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Russians have extremely high counts</span>, Stalingrad, etc etc...but they also lost more snipers than most country's did.
The white feather:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As they cautiously walked to the forest's edge and peered from behind it's dense cover, Hathcock scrambled to where the body lay and snatched the rifle. He turned to retreat quickly when he noticed a broad, white feather, three inches long, lying at his feet. The sight of it reminded him of the white sea bird that he watched fly over this valley at sunrise.
..
..
It might well have been a feather dropped by a chicken that had strayed to that far end of the community, but for Hathcock, the white birds of the morning seemed a more meaningful source.
</div></div>
Lot of people get their panties in a wad because of this book, for me I was just curious wht happened to the feather. John Culbertson really goes out of his way, but stops short of calling Hathcock a liar. Most of his books are negative reading though - always complaining about something.
As for Adelbert Waldron III it is said he was flown to hilltops, dropped off and shot from the hills, and then picked up - no stalking required - but I wasn't there so I can't say.
I just know that because of Carlos Hathcock the USMC has a fine sniping program that it might not otherwise have.
Body count - not politically correct- and you don't see body counts coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan being made public, but you DO see the "Longest" shot being made.
I say the longest shot made is 17 miles, about the range of a 155 howitzer. </div></div>
the russians are also known to be full of shit when it comes to seperating the truth from propaganda..
they sure as hell did their part though...no way that war would have been won without them
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So back on topic here, Carlos said in Vietnam he didn't care about the body count.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Russians have extremely high counts</span>, Stalingrad, etc etc...but they also lost more snipers than most country's did.
The white feather:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As they cautiously walked to the forest's edge and peered from behind it's dense cover, Hathcock scrambled to where the body lay and snatched the rifle. He turned to retreat quickly when he noticed a broad, white feather, three inches long, lying at his feet. The sight of it reminded him of the white sea bird that he watched fly over this valley at sunrise.
..
..
It might well have been a feather dropped by a chicken that had strayed to that far end of the community, but for Hathcock, the white birds of the morning seemed a more meaningful source.
</div></div>
Lot of people get their panties in a wad because of this book, for me I was just curious wht happened to the feather. John Culbertson really goes out of his way, but stops short of calling Hathcock a liar. Most of his books are negative reading though - always complaining about something.
As for Adelbert Waldron III it is said he was flown to hilltops, dropped off and shot from the hills, and then picked up - no stalking required - but I wasn't there so I can't say.
I just know that because of Carlos Hathcock the USMC has a fine sniping program that it might not otherwise have.
Body count - not politically correct- and you don't see body counts coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan being made public, but you DO see the "Longest" shot being made.
I say the longest shot made is 17 miles, about the range of a 155 howitzer. </div></div>
the russians are also known to be full of shit when it comes to seperating the truth from propaganda..
they sure as hell did their part though...no way that war would have been won without them
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Gunfighter, you have the attitude typical of guys who lay on manicured grass and shoot paper. Very common. You are just the kind of military people we had to work around to get things done.
"Fieldcraft" is something used by those who have to actually leave a perimiter to seek out the enemy and deny them the initiative and self-confidence needed to be aggressive. Nothing will demoralize a group than thinking they are safe and having one them have his head explode in their midst, without anybody knowing where the shot came from.
In a Marine S/S team, the Sniper carried the M40A1, and the team leader carried a M16A1, later A2, and a AN/PVS2 or later AN/PVS4, binos, spotting scope, compass, map, radio, and shackle sheets. We carried as much rations and water as we needed. Both carried knives and pistols.
"Snipers" and "Scouts" are two different roles in the Army. Only the Marines have "Scout/Snipers". The marines also attach a Recon Platoon to a Battalion Landing Team. There were occasions where in training we found ourselves not only looking at the same objective, but chose the same spot to do it from!
Our Snipers also coordinated with the Recon guys to provide more coverage with a additional capability (the Sniper) and to cover them on their mission in, on, and out. They would also provide security for us when needed. They taught us how to work with them in the IBS and later MARS boats, so we weren't just supercargo. We rappeled from helos and SPIE rigged with them sometimes in training too.
We weren't Amphib Recon trained, though several of our guys did go over to the Recon Co/Plt when we had a new batch come in we actually were overstaffed, the only time I ever saw that. They took the Recon test and went to ARS just like the others.
The fact that you don't understand and are contempuous of the versatility and capability of Scout/Snipers, and it seems the Recon guys too, shows through.
Personally, we were contemptuous of Benchrest shooters. The Army has it's AMU, where that is all you do, lay on mats on the grass and shoot paper. That's your job in the Army for a decade or more.
There is little in common, in training, experience, capability, or attitude between a guy like you, Mr. Distinguished Shooter, and us. To us, you are just a guy who pulls a trigger. You wouldn't have made selection from what I have already noted, regardless of your Rifle Range score. We didn't have, or need somebody to read a map or compass for us, and we understood the big fucking arrows in addition to ballistic tables. That radio we had allowed us o direct accurate observed Mortars, Arty, Helo Gunships, strike Air, or even naval gunfire by relaying through the FSCC.we had all the freqs and call signs.
With us in the game the mission would be more successful with less friendly casualties. Our observations about enemy numbers, locations, equipment, weapons, and activity, movements, and capabiliyies was is indespensible to a intelligent commander. Our Officer is actualy the unit S-2. And our reports had to be accurate, including "Body Counts", and why we targeted those specific individuals, preferably unit leaders or crew served people. You shoot the sight off a mortar or artillery piece you made a serious impact on them too.
It's a lot different than the Rifle Range. This isn't 1967. the Marine S/S program didn't come on line until I think about 78 or 79. I did it in 82.
We afre of the opinion you are much more likely to teach a good marine to shoot better, but not able to teach a dumb marine (or soldier) who can shoot to be a Scout/Sniper.
What was funny is in my time unit commanders didnt send their best shooters, including snipers, to matches. They were afraid that they would get picked up if they did well and they would lose them. They told me so openly. </div></div>
Word up, killer,... Ya got me,... I'm done. Guess that Holiday Inn was lacking, should I get a refund?
Fieldcraft an Tactics? Don't know anything about those traits, but one thing I know for sure from past experience. Head shots are stupid for three reasons. One being your Fieldcraft ability, damn sure better be, well above average when doing head shots, because it won't be FNG's that are coming to play tag, so I'm told.
The Past C/O of the AMU made a comment here some years back to the effect,...I can teach a monkey to shoot, the rest is a little harder. Might be a lesson in that statement,...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Gunfighter, you have the attitude typical of guys who lay on manicured grass and shoot paper. Very common. You are just the kind of military people we had to work around to get things done.
"Fieldcraft" is something used by those who have to actually leave a perimiter to seek out the enemy and deny them the initiative and self-confidence needed to be aggressive. Nothing will demoralize a group than thinking they are safe and having one them have his head explode in their midst, without anybody knowing where the shot came from.
In a Marine S/S team, the Sniper carried the M40A1, and the team leader carried a M16A1, later A2, and a AN/PVS2 or later AN/PVS4, binos, spotting scope, compass, map, radio, and shackle sheets. We carried as much rations and water as we needed. Both carried knives and pistols.
"Snipers" and "Scouts" are two different roles in the Army. Only the Marines have "Scout/Snipers". The marines also attach a Recon Platoon to a Battalion Landing Team. There were occasions where in training we found ourselves not only looking at the same objective, but chose the same spot to do it from!
Our Snipers also coordinated with the Recon guys to provide more coverage with a additional capability (the Sniper) and to cover them on their mission in, on, and out. They would also provide security for us when needed. They taught us how to work with them in the IBS and later MARS boats, so we weren't just supercargo. We rappeled from helos and SPIE rigged with them sometimes in training too.
We weren't Amphib Recon trained, though several of our guys did go over to the Recon Co/Plt when we had a new batch come in we actually were overstaffed, the only time I ever saw that. They took the Recon test and went to ARS just like the others.
The fact that you don't understand and are contempuous of the versatility and capability of Scout/Snipers, and it seems the Recon guys too, shows through.
Personally, we were contemptuous of Benchrest shooters. The Army has it's AMU, where that is all you do, lay on mats on the grass and shoot paper. That's your job in the Army for a decade or more.
There is little in common, in training, experience, capability, or attitude between a guy like you, Mr. Distinguished Shooter, and us. To us, you are just a guy who pulls a trigger. You wouldn't have made selection from what I have already noted, regardless of your Rifle Range score. We didn't have, or need somebody to read a map or compass for us, and we understood the big fucking arrows in addition to ballistic tables. That radio we had allowed us o direct accurate observed Mortars, Arty, Helo Gunships, strike Air, or even naval gunfire by relaying through the FSCC.we had all the freqs and call signs.
With us in the game the mission would be more successful with less friendly casualties. Our observations about enemy numbers, locations, equipment, weapons, and activity, movements, and capabiliyies was is indespensible to a intelligent commander. Our Officer is actualy the unit S-2. And our reports had to be accurate, including "Body Counts", and why we targeted those specific individuals, preferably unit leaders or crew served people. You shoot the sight off a mortar or artillery piece you made a serious impact on them too.
It's a lot different than the Rifle Range. This isn't 1967. the Marine S/S program didn't come on line until I think about 78 or 79. I did it in 82.
We afre of the opinion you are much more likely to teach a good marine to shoot better, but not able to teach a dumb marine (or soldier) who can shoot to be a Scout/Sniper.
What was funny is in my time unit commanders didnt send their best shooters, including snipers, to matches. They were afraid that they would get picked up if they did well and they would lose them. They told me so openly. </div></div>
Word up, killer,... Ya got me,... I'm done. Guess that Holiday Inn was lacking, should I get a refund?
Fieldcraft an Tactics? Don't know anything about those traits, but one thing I know for sure from past experience. Head shots are stupid for three reasons. One being your Fieldcraft ability, damn sure better be, well above average when doing head shots, because it won't be FNG's that are coming to play tag, so I'm told.
The Past C/O of the AMU made a comment here some years back to the effect,...I can teach a monkey to shoot, the rest is a little harder. Might be a lesson in that statement,...
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter, I think he was using your name to address me, I decided to ignor the child.
But I will admit, shooting the sights off a piece of artillary would be tricky. </div></div>
Ya, to bad we did not have, Call Of Duty back then, look how much better we could have been.
I'm to glad know Guys with glass can call Arty an Tac Air via radios, that's a new one on me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gunfighter, I think he was using your name to address me, I decided to ignor the child.
But I will admit, shooting the sights off a piece of artillary would be tricky. </div></div>
Ya, to bad we did not have, Call Of Duty back then, look how much better we could have been.
I'm to glad know Guys with glass can call Arty an Tac Air via radios, that's a new one on me.
Re: Carlos's white feather
I was mistaken in who I was addrsssing. It was Kraig.
Obviously you are a shooter, not a Sniper, and definately not a former Scout/Sniper.
Guys like Hathcock, and me, taufg and trained to do things you and others have no experience or idea about.
"Head Shots" are risky because the head is the most animated part of the body, but many ties that is all you see, and when the situation and circumstances permits it there is no reason to exclude it, especially for dramatic effect on the others there.
In fact we spent a lot of time shooting at the band around the head specifically to hit the Medulla. It was part of the S/S training. in reality, we shot the pasters put on to indicate the eyes, and did it all day long with M40A1s, with a strong crosswind, from 300 yards, for score.
So head shots were part of the program and appropriate for specific scenarios, like hostage situations. That was why we trained for them. We even had a "hostage" bouncing around in front of the target on a stick.
We trained on walking and running targets too.
the reason i know that, I'm a former Marine/Scout Sniper. That was all part of the program Hathcock and the others devised for us.
I was mistaken in who I was addrsssing. It was Kraig.
Obviously you are a shooter, not a Sniper, and definately not a former Scout/Sniper.
Guys like Hathcock, and me, taufg and trained to do things you and others have no experience or idea about.
"Head Shots" are risky because the head is the most animated part of the body, but many ties that is all you see, and when the situation and circumstances permits it there is no reason to exclude it, especially for dramatic effect on the others there.
In fact we spent a lot of time shooting at the band around the head specifically to hit the Medulla. It was part of the S/S training. in reality, we shot the pasters put on to indicate the eyes, and did it all day long with M40A1s, with a strong crosswind, from 300 yards, for score.
So head shots were part of the program and appropriate for specific scenarios, like hostage situations. That was why we trained for them. We even had a "hostage" bouncing around in front of the target on a stick.
We trained on walking and running targets too.
the reason i know that, I'm a former Marine/Scout Sniper. That was all part of the program Hathcock and the others devised for us.
Re: Carlos's white feather
I was mistaken in who I was addrsssing. It was Kraig.
Obviously you are a shooter, not a Sniper, and definately not a former Scout/Sniper.
Guys like Hathcock, and me, taught and trained to do things you and others have no experience or idea about.
"Head Shots" are risky because the head is the most animated part of the body, but many ties that is all you see, and when the situation and circumstances permits it there is no reason to exclude it, especially for dramatic effect on the others there.
In fact we spent a lot of time shooting at the band around the head specifically to hit the Medulla. It was part of the S/S training. in reality, we shot the pasters put on to indicate the eyes, and did it all day long with M40A1s, with a strong crosswind, from 300 yards, for score.
So head shots were part of the program and appropriate for specific scenarios, like hostage situations. That was why we trained for them. We even had a "hostage" bouncing around in front of the target on a stick.
We trained on walking and running targets too.
the reason i know that, I'm a former Marine/Scout Sniper. That was all part of the program Hathcock and the others devised for us. They created the program to train replacements for themselves, based on their own experiences and that of others. the destruction of enemy weapons and equipment was also a viable option, and easily in our capablity.
The radio is the most destructive weapon a Marine S/S team has. By direct communication or by relay through places like a FSCC we could get anything to rain down on a target, including, in my day, the USS New Jersey or Iowa. We trained to adjust naval Gunfire, Arty Mortars, and Tac Air. If we couldn't talk to them ourselves we could relay through somebody who could, and never expose ourselves.
It's called teamwork. Everybody working to accomplish the mission, to destroy the enemy or his will to resist.
After the school, while serving, we went out when Arty was shooting and observed and participated in the firing. We loaded projectiles and powder, and pulled the lanyard (or without it) under the supervision and guidance of the gun crews. We observed and had explained what the FDC did with plotting. We went out when mrtars were shooting and did the same. We went out when Air was dropping and got specific guidance on adjusting Air on target. It gave us insight and understanding what was going on when we called for those assests. We did the same with naval gunfire laisons and Anglico.
It all reinenforced what the S/S school taught us. we were expected to be capable and versatile far behind shooting a bolt gun. That was what was and is expected. Precision marksmanship was a part of what we did, but far from the only.
I was a legacy of Hathcock and Land. There are others now who have taken his, and my place in the Corps. That was the idea. That the abilities not be neglected and lost.
I was mistaken in who I was addrsssing. It was Kraig.
Obviously you are a shooter, not a Sniper, and definately not a former Scout/Sniper.
Guys like Hathcock, and me, taught and trained to do things you and others have no experience or idea about.
"Head Shots" are risky because the head is the most animated part of the body, but many ties that is all you see, and when the situation and circumstances permits it there is no reason to exclude it, especially for dramatic effect on the others there.
In fact we spent a lot of time shooting at the band around the head specifically to hit the Medulla. It was part of the S/S training. in reality, we shot the pasters put on to indicate the eyes, and did it all day long with M40A1s, with a strong crosswind, from 300 yards, for score.
So head shots were part of the program and appropriate for specific scenarios, like hostage situations. That was why we trained for them. We even had a "hostage" bouncing around in front of the target on a stick.
We trained on walking and running targets too.
the reason i know that, I'm a former Marine/Scout Sniper. That was all part of the program Hathcock and the others devised for us. They created the program to train replacements for themselves, based on their own experiences and that of others. the destruction of enemy weapons and equipment was also a viable option, and easily in our capablity.
The radio is the most destructive weapon a Marine S/S team has. By direct communication or by relay through places like a FSCC we could get anything to rain down on a target, including, in my day, the USS New Jersey or Iowa. We trained to adjust naval Gunfire, Arty Mortars, and Tac Air. If we couldn't talk to them ourselves we could relay through somebody who could, and never expose ourselves.
It's called teamwork. Everybody working to accomplish the mission, to destroy the enemy or his will to resist.
After the school, while serving, we went out when Arty was shooting and observed and participated in the firing. We loaded projectiles and powder, and pulled the lanyard (or without it) under the supervision and guidance of the gun crews. We observed and had explained what the FDC did with plotting. We went out when mrtars were shooting and did the same. We went out when Air was dropping and got specific guidance on adjusting Air on target. It gave us insight and understanding what was going on when we called for those assests. We did the same with naval gunfire laisons and Anglico.
It all reinenforced what the S/S school taught us. we were expected to be capable and versatile far behind shooting a bolt gun. That was what was and is expected. Precision marksmanship was a part of what we did, but far from the only.
I was a legacy of Hathcock and Land. There are others now who have taken his, and my place in the Corps. That was the idea. That the abilities not be neglected and lost.
Re: Carlos's white feather
Donttrytorun;
You’re a cocky little pissant ain’t you?
You remind me of a baby Robin (gonna have to ask your grandpa what that means).
I’ve met scout snipers, and contrary to what you say in your post, they do shoot matches, I use to shoot with them twice a year in Hawaii and once per year at 29 Palms. Fine bunch of folks, but nothing like you.
You don’t know a damn thing about me or what I've done.
First of all, learn to read, never in any of my post have I disrespected Marine snipers or their sniper programs.
Donttrytorun;
You’re a cocky little pissant ain’t you?
You remind me of a baby Robin (gonna have to ask your grandpa what that means).
I’ve met scout snipers, and contrary to what you say in your post, they do shoot matches, I use to shoot with them twice a year in Hawaii and once per year at 29 Palms. Fine bunch of folks, but nothing like you.
You don’t know a damn thing about me or what I've done.
First of all, learn to read, never in any of my post have I disrespected Marine snipers or their sniper programs.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
kraigWY
Just read some of his posts sense he's been here. I find no posting at all, in the most important forum the hide has for BTDT types. That alone speaks volumes,....
Glad we got the lesson,... Now those that could not even spell it last week, know all there is to know, about being a national ass-set.
kraigWY
Just read some of his posts sense he's been here. I find no posting at all, in the most important forum the hide has for BTDT types. That alone speaks volumes,....
Glad we got the lesson,... Now those that could not even spell it last week, know all there is to know, about being a national ass-set.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Guys like Hathcock, and me, taufg and trained to do things you and others have no experience or idea about.</div></div>
How about you just clue me, Killer. But first please tell me, how many patch's of dirt on this rock have you worked, were there is a verifiable AAR for the title you claim?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Guys like Hathcock, and me, taufg and trained to do things you and others have no experience or idea about.</div></div>
How about you just clue me, Killer. But first please tell me, how many patch's of dirt on this rock have you worked, were there is a verifiable AAR for the title you claim?
Re: Carlos's white feather
If you guys can't tell the difference between a genuine Marine S/S and a poser, like I easily can, you are sad.
I actually have "BTDT", and here of all places, in "SnipersHide" I would expect that would be obvious to other who have.
It isn't, because it seems I am short of common experience and company.
So it seems I am one of the few here is is a bonafide member of the profession, which is why it seems I am not welcome by some.
i do not need or rely on your approval or acceptance to validate my accomplishments, because I "BTDT". I actually am a former 8541. Anybody else?
If you guys can't tell the difference between a genuine Marine S/S and a poser, like I easily can, you are sad.
I actually have "BTDT", and here of all places, in "SnipersHide" I would expect that would be obvious to other who have.
It isn't, because it seems I am short of common experience and company.
So it seems I am one of the few here is is a bonafide member of the profession, which is why it seems I am not welcome by some.
i do not need or rely on your approval or acceptance to validate my accomplishments, because I "BTDT". I actually am a former 8541. Anybody else?
Re: Carlos's white feather
You have done more horn blowing than all of the Marine Snipers I have known over the years. Guys I have known talk little and respect much. I am not questioning whether you are or are not, but there are lot of oldsters on here who have served well and long and hard. Kraig for one has been there many times and deserves respect. This site is full of assholes....don't get branded as one.
RJ
You have done more horn blowing than all of the Marine Snipers I have known over the years. Guys I have known talk little and respect much. I am not questioning whether you are or are not, but there are lot of oldsters on here who have served well and long and hard. Kraig for one has been there many times and deserves respect. This site is full of assholes....don't get branded as one.
RJ
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
dont
You have wanted an been looking for a dog an pony show from day one, now it's arrived,... answer the question.
Clue me as to what your all about, Mr 8541. I doubt your even qualified to carry a map, let alone use it for anything other than coloring. One thing you'll learn in life, with the right bait you can catch any fish, no matter how good he thinks he is. Same tactics work in the field as well. Let something slip, seed the playing field an watch what happens. Just because we play dumn, does not mean we can't run the game.
If you really want to play, I'm ready, willing an able,...Then again a half assed Old Army Puke, may not be up to your standards, but I'll give it my best shot,...
dont
You have wanted an been looking for a dog an pony show from day one, now it's arrived,... answer the question.
Clue me as to what your all about, Mr 8541. I doubt your even qualified to carry a map, let alone use it for anything other than coloring. One thing you'll learn in life, with the right bait you can catch any fish, no matter how good he thinks he is. Same tactics work in the field as well. Let something slip, seed the playing field an watch what happens. Just because we play dumn, does not mean we can't run the game.
If you really want to play, I'm ready, willing an able,...Then again a half assed Old Army Puke, may not be up to your standards, but I'll give it my best shot,...
Re: Carlos's white feather
I'm still waiting, who here is actually a trained and qualified Military sniper, preferably a Marine S/S? I did my time. Anybody else, or is limited to benchrest shooters?
i did it early in the program, anybody else here who did then or since? Anywhere? is there anybody on this site who i can have a intelligent conversation with based on personal experience in the MOS? i am curious about some of the changes the last decade or so.
i haven't found one lately. Just guys who "Saw a sniper once, don't know what he did, he wasn't around long. had a model 70, I think.".
Anybody else here bonafide? it will only take a brief cconversation to establish that. anybody else he crawled the crawl, stalked the stalk?
Calling all 8541's.
All others need not apply.
I'm still waiting, who here is actually a trained and qualified Military sniper, preferably a Marine S/S? I did my time. Anybody else, or is limited to benchrest shooters?
i did it early in the program, anybody else here who did then or since? Anywhere? is there anybody on this site who i can have a intelligent conversation with based on personal experience in the MOS? i am curious about some of the changes the last decade or so.
i haven't found one lately. Just guys who "Saw a sniper once, don't know what he did, he wasn't around long. had a model 70, I think.".
Anybody else here bonafide? it will only take a brief cconversation to establish that. anybody else he crawled the crawl, stalked the stalk?
Calling all 8541's.
All others need not apply.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
Keep digging.
About those AAR's you find any yet,... have any at all? You could borrow some I suppose. What is stalking? That like pealing corn or something?
About those targets walking or running with M-118. So where would a Puke hold to hit a patrol walk at 625 at 25* down on a -30* day around the 38th Parallel.
Well strike that, to early for you, lets do the same with a Special Ball or 67 TW your choice, from a M14 with a Leatherwood Partner early July around the Cut in S/E Asia with 105*, 93% rh.
Or would you prefer a gig in China, whats you pleasure?
Keep digging.
About those AAR's you find any yet,... have any at all? You could borrow some I suppose. What is stalking? That like pealing corn or something?
About those targets walking or running with M-118. So where would a Puke hold to hit a patrol walk at 625 at 25* down on a -30* day around the 38th Parallel.
Well strike that, to early for you, lets do the same with a Special Ball or 67 TW your choice, from a M14 with a Leatherwood Partner early July around the Cut in S/E Asia with 105*, 93% rh.
Or would you prefer a gig in China, whats you pleasure?
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still waiting, who here is actually a trained and qualified Military sniper, preferably a Marine S/S? I did my time. Anybody else, or is limited to benchrest shooters?
i did it early in the program, anybody else here who did then or since? Anywhere? is there anybody on this site who i can have a intelligent conversation with based on personal experience in the MOS? i am curious about some of the changes the last decade or so.
i haven't found one lately. Just guys who "Saw a sniper once, don't know what he did, he wasn't around long. had a model 70, I think.".
Anybody else here bonafide? it will only take a brief cconversation to establish that. anybody else he crawled the crawl, stalked the stalk?
Calling all 8541's.
All others need not apply.</div></div>
You sure your name isn't Waldren? Or Maser?
My suggestion would be for you to purchase a tape-measure and get it over with. Otherwise, discussion here is generally more readily accepted than pecker-measuring.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still waiting, who here is actually a trained and qualified Military sniper, preferably a Marine S/S? I did my time. Anybody else, or is limited to benchrest shooters?
i did it early in the program, anybody else here who did then or since? Anywhere? is there anybody on this site who i can have a intelligent conversation with based on personal experience in the MOS? i am curious about some of the changes the last decade or so.
i haven't found one lately. Just guys who "Saw a sniper once, don't know what he did, he wasn't around long. had a model 70, I think.".
Anybody else here bonafide? it will only take a brief cconversation to establish that. anybody else he crawled the crawl, stalked the stalk?
Calling all 8541's.
All others need not apply.</div></div>
You sure your name isn't Waldren? Or Maser?
My suggestion would be for you to purchase a tape-measure and get it over with. Otherwise, discussion here is generally more readily accepted than pecker-measuring.
Re: Carlos's white feather
All of this because I read a book, asked a question and wanted an honest answer....sigh.
So nobody knows where Carlos left his white feather?
We assume his son has it, I hope so.
All of this because I read a book, asked a question and wanted an honest answer....sigh.
So nobody knows where Carlos left his white feather?
We assume his son has it, I hope so.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Carlos's white feather
Well look at it this way, it's a long way from where Montana Marines Serpa review took us,... but it's a long way from being over also.
Only hope we don't get any divine intervention, before the digging stops.
Well look at it this way, it's a long way from where Montana Marines Serpa review took us,... but it's a long way from being over also.
Only hope we don't get any divine intervention, before the digging stops.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The radio is the most destructive weapon a Marine S/S team has.
It's called teamwork. Everybody working to accomplish the mission, to destroy the enemy or his will to resist.
I was a legacy of Hathcock and Land. There are others now who have taken his, and my place in the Corps. That was the idea. That the abilities not be neglected and lost. </div></div>
That part right there - all 3- WELL PUT!
I worked ComSec, and distributed CEOI's, auth codes, etc as my primary job to the same Arty, A-10 squadrons, and in the case of BrimFrost 1989-to some ships for the Navy. I was honored to have done my duty
I wired up the very first STU-III's to Ft Wainwright a week or two prior to Panama (That's how I knew something big was coming)...vital commo for everyone to make decisions on.
So as you said, everyone plays a part.
Well it is all one big team, and those guys on the New Jersey in 1968/1969 - man what a ride - the ULTIMATE sniper shot , 18 miles away...That should count!!
I did do some DM tra ining though and learned a trick or two about lying in the snow at 20 below for 8 hours - it can be done...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The radio is the most destructive weapon a Marine S/S team has.
It's called teamwork. Everybody working to accomplish the mission, to destroy the enemy or his will to resist.
I was a legacy of Hathcock and Land. There are others now who have taken his, and my place in the Corps. That was the idea. That the abilities not be neglected and lost. </div></div>
That part right there - all 3- WELL PUT!
I worked ComSec, and distributed CEOI's, auth codes, etc as my primary job to the same Arty, A-10 squadrons, and in the case of BrimFrost 1989-to some ships for the Navy. I was honored to have done my duty
I wired up the very first STU-III's to Ft Wainwright a week or two prior to Panama (That's how I knew something big was coming)...vital commo for everyone to make decisions on.
So as you said, everyone plays a part.
Well it is all one big team, and those guys on the New Jersey in 1968/1969 - man what a ride - the ULTIMATE sniper shot , 18 miles away...That should count!!
I did do some DM tra ining though and learned a trick or two about lying in the snow at 20 below for 8 hours - it can be done...
Re: Carlos's white feather
Donttry
Listen Child, there are many here who have you beat by a long shot.
Don’t know why I’m playing your games but I got your little pencil dick beat if you got a yard stick (or micrometer in your case) here goes.
Recon: Google HHC 2/502 INF Recon Plt. (Recondo), you’ll find my name on the roster, 67-68, unlike you, that was a live fire FTX with pop up – shoot back targets. Dealt with my first enemy snipers there. I countered with a M-60 and PRC 25 (to get mortars). Learned what enemy snipers to go after, which ones to leave alone. (There are those you want to leave, they might be replaced with shooters).
Got interested in the sniping game, Went to the USAMU Sniper School in 1978, yeap the same school the marines sent guys to to start their program. That was the wish of the AMU, to provide instructors to go back to their commands and start other programs, military and civilian LE (including the FBI & SS).
You said you went to SS in ’82, by then I already started a program and a couple schools under my belt, for the National Guard, Regular Army (172nd Inf Bde) and LE.
Want References, contact the Adjutant General, Alaska NG, he attended my courses when he was an E-6. While you’re at it ask MG Little Tommy Katkus about who did the original Rifle Training when APD started its SWAT (CRT) program. He also retired form APD before going full time for the Alaska National Guard.
I’m still running sniper schools, got a gig later this year putting on a course for the DHS FPS in Oregon (that is after they get through playing games with the Occupy Portland idiots.)\.
Sure I shot high power, got my distinguished badge, Coached the Alaska National Guard Rifle Team for years. Attending the NGB Coaches Clinic.
How does that disqualify me from sniper programs
Now Im just a has been, I put on high power clinics, I’m a CMP GSM Master Instructor, and do some sniper instruction for LE, only when requested.
What makes me question you is your BS about Marine Snipers not shooting competition. I’ve shot with them across the west coast. I don’t know Carlos Hathcock, but I attended a LE Rife Instructors Course taught by one of his buddies and team mates, Chuck something or other, don’t remember his name. We spent a good deal of time discussing Marine/Army Snipers and High Power Shooting. (Which if I remember right is where Gunny Hathcock got his start as did most of the people who started sniper programs in SE Asia.
As to your BS about the AMU only shooting on manicured lawns, you are totally full of shit, you know nothing about those people, who by the way win a huge majority of the international sniper competitions. They didn’t place last year, because they were in Afghan teaching others. I doubt they would let you police brass on their manicured lawn.
Now go blow your smoke up someone’s skirt who'll buys your bullshit. The more you rant, the less I believe.
Donttry
Listen Child, there are many here who have you beat by a long shot.
Don’t know why I’m playing your games but I got your little pencil dick beat if you got a yard stick (or micrometer in your case) here goes.
Recon: Google HHC 2/502 INF Recon Plt. (Recondo), you’ll find my name on the roster, 67-68, unlike you, that was a live fire FTX with pop up – shoot back targets. Dealt with my first enemy snipers there. I countered with a M-60 and PRC 25 (to get mortars). Learned what enemy snipers to go after, which ones to leave alone. (There are those you want to leave, they might be replaced with shooters).
Got interested in the sniping game, Went to the USAMU Sniper School in 1978, yeap the same school the marines sent guys to to start their program. That was the wish of the AMU, to provide instructors to go back to their commands and start other programs, military and civilian LE (including the FBI & SS).
You said you went to SS in ’82, by then I already started a program and a couple schools under my belt, for the National Guard, Regular Army (172nd Inf Bde) and LE.
Want References, contact the Adjutant General, Alaska NG, he attended my courses when he was an E-6. While you’re at it ask MG Little Tommy Katkus about who did the original Rifle Training when APD started its SWAT (CRT) program. He also retired form APD before going full time for the Alaska National Guard.
I’m still running sniper schools, got a gig later this year putting on a course for the DHS FPS in Oregon (that is after they get through playing games with the Occupy Portland idiots.)\.
Sure I shot high power, got my distinguished badge, Coached the Alaska National Guard Rifle Team for years. Attending the NGB Coaches Clinic.
How does that disqualify me from sniper programs
Now Im just a has been, I put on high power clinics, I’m a CMP GSM Master Instructor, and do some sniper instruction for LE, only when requested.
What makes me question you is your BS about Marine Snipers not shooting competition. I’ve shot with them across the west coast. I don’t know Carlos Hathcock, but I attended a LE Rife Instructors Course taught by one of his buddies and team mates, Chuck something or other, don’t remember his name. We spent a good deal of time discussing Marine/Army Snipers and High Power Shooting. (Which if I remember right is where Gunny Hathcock got his start as did most of the people who started sniper programs in SE Asia.
As to your BS about the AMU only shooting on manicured lawns, you are totally full of shit, you know nothing about those people, who by the way win a huge majority of the international sniper competitions. They didn’t place last year, because they were in Afghan teaching others. I doubt they would let you police brass on their manicured lawn.
Now go blow your smoke up someone’s skirt who'll buys your bullshit. The more you rant, the less I believe.
Re: Carlos's white feather
Kraig, that was very refreshing and articulate. Many here are glad and thankful for what you've done. Both 'then' and 'NOW'.
ArcticLight, sorry for your thread for getting derailed, though it has had some interesting parts. Some very droll parts though, too.
As to "the Feather", one can only hope that either A) his son has it, or B) the Museum has it. I myself have been watching this thread, in the hopes that there was some good news somewhere along the line. As it is, a somewhat secondary narrative has been taking place with the appearance of "hey everyone, look at me...."
Not exactly 'stealthy' now is it?
Kraig, that was very refreshing and articulate. Many here are glad and thankful for what you've done. Both 'then' and 'NOW'.
ArcticLight, sorry for your thread for getting derailed, though it has had some interesting parts. Some very droll parts though, too.
As to "the Feather", one can only hope that either A) his son has it, or B) the Museum has it. I myself have been watching this thread, in the hopes that there was some good news somewhere along the line. As it is, a somewhat secondary narrative has been taking place with the appearance of "hey everyone, look at me...."
Not exactly 'stealthy' now is it?
Re: Carlos's white feather
Condescension is always recognized, and appreciated.
So we got a Army Sniper here. i'm still waiting for a 8541/0317.
I heard about the Army Schools. 3 weeks at the range, teaching them to shoot. that was something they needed, because the army trashed basic fundamentals (several times) in favor of "Quick Kill" types of training.
Thank god the Marines stuck with the fundamentals for everybody, and teaches them still on KD courses out to 500 years/meters, depending on which range you are shooting. That way when they do go to a Sniper School they already know the bullets come out the pointy end of the firestick.
match Shooting anD military Sniping are very different animals. i would expect you guys would know that.
That's why the Marine program is so different, and produces men so versatile. They have a lot more to offer than sitting behind sandbags at a FB and taking shots at some passing farmer with a hoe on his shoulder. They have nobody to rely on but their partner or now team, and everybody else in the unit, and the mission, can benefit tremendously from their craft. I am proud to have earned memership in that elite club. So any doubters can GFT. We seem pretty scarce around here. I see why. i think I'll join them.
Condescension is always recognized, and appreciated.
So we got a Army Sniper here. i'm still waiting for a 8541/0317.
I heard about the Army Schools. 3 weeks at the range, teaching them to shoot. that was something they needed, because the army trashed basic fundamentals (several times) in favor of "Quick Kill" types of training.
Thank god the Marines stuck with the fundamentals for everybody, and teaches them still on KD courses out to 500 years/meters, depending on which range you are shooting. That way when they do go to a Sniper School they already know the bullets come out the pointy end of the firestick.
match Shooting anD military Sniping are very different animals. i would expect you guys would know that.
That's why the Marine program is so different, and produces men so versatile. They have a lot more to offer than sitting behind sandbags at a FB and taking shots at some passing farmer with a hoe on his shoulder. They have nobody to rely on but their partner or now team, and everybody else in the unit, and the mission, can benefit tremendously from their craft. I am proud to have earned memership in that elite club. So any doubters can GFT. We seem pretty scarce around here. I see why. i think I'll join them.
Re: Carlos's white feather
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'm still waiting for a 8541/0317.
</div></div>
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Donttrytorun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i'm still waiting for a 8541/0317.
</div></div>
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