Cartridge selection help.

[Steve_O]

Current rifle is Tikka T3X, MDT ACC chassis in 6.5 CM. When I shoot out this 6.5 barrel I have been thinking about going alittle bigger in cartridge. I will be using this setup in high wind hunting/target shooting in Texas and Wyoming. Trying to make this project a do all heavy, stable, long range 1000 plus range shooting and around 500 yard hunting rifle. I love the low recoil and accuracy of my 6.5 but kind of want something with more horsepower down range. What are some heavy for caliber, long high BC cartridges you guys recommend? Was thinking 7 SAUM, 7 WSM, 300 WSM at the moment. Would like a cartridge with good brass availability. Any recommendations would be great. Thanks again guys.

 

[High Desert duck]

Check out the blackjack 131 grain bullet. Run it as a 25 Creedmoor. It’ll cut the wind shoots flat and seems like guys are doing well with it on game. Light recoil.

 

[b6graham]

so the issue with a tikka is changing the boltface. the easiest way is literally buy a new tikka in some magnum caliber just for the bolt

keeping with the 308 boltface something like a 280AI or a sherman 270 varient would be nice but...

MDT makes tikka 3.47 coal magazines for tikka but they dont work with the ACC unfortunately

personally i'd recommend a 7SAW. headstamped brass from alpha or 308 small primer works just as well. i'm cruising 162s at 2840 with only 42.4gr of varget. plenty of room to go up. lots of new bullet options with the ATip, PVA solids, etc. and plenty of power down range. splash versus a 6.5creed is very noticable and the added recoil is basically nothing with a good brake or can

 

[Steve_O]

so the issue with a tikka is changing the boltface. the easiest way is literally buy a new tikka in some magnum caliber just for the bolt

keeping with the 308 boltface something like a 280AI or a sherman 270 varient would be nice but...

MDT makes tikka 3.47 coal magazines for tikka but they dont work with the ACC unfortunately

personally i'd recommend a 7SAW. headstamped brass from alpha or 308 small primer works just as well. i'm cruising 162s at 2840 with only 42.4gr of varget. plenty of room to go up. lots of new bullet options with the ATip, PVA solids, etc. and plenty of power down range. splash versus a 6.5creed is very noticable and the added recoil is basically nothing with a good brake or can

What chassis would that 3.47 mag in a Tikka work with? Would I be able to have my bolt machined for a magnum?

 

[PWOCengineer70]

I think you’ve got 2 really good suggestions so far. I personally run a 25x47 with the 131 ACE bullet for my match rifle, but would recommend 25 creedmoor is you are wanting to get the most out of it without having to go magnum bolt face. That bullet is insanely good in the wind.

I have also been looking at picking up a workhorse barrel in 7 SAW or 7mm-08 for better barrel life and for hunting larger game like elk without having to switch to a long action or mag bolt.

 

[Steve_O]

I think you’ve got 2 really good suggestions so far. I personally run a 25x47 with the 131 ACE bullet for my match rifle, but would recommend 25 creedmoor is you are wanting to get the most out of it without having to go magnum bolt face. That bullet is insanely good in the wind.

I have also been looking at picking up a workhorse barrel in 7 SAW or 7mm-08 for better barrel life and for hunting larger game like elk without having to switch to a long action or mag bolt.

Is the 25 creed good for Mule Deer sized game at say 500 yards?

 

[kthomas]

Fast twist .25 Creedmoor chambered to shoot something like these: https://patriotvalleyarms.com/flm-257-117gr-cayuga-hunting-bullets-50ct/

 

[High Desert duck]

Is the 25 creed good for Mule Deer sized game at say 500 yards?

It’s still carrying almost 1500ft/lb at 500 and sea level. (@2950 MV) I haven’t shot it at game but I have seen a lot of positive reviews on it on different sites. I believe @coldboremiracle has had good luck with them.

 

[PWOCengineer70]

I can’t personally speak to the effectiveness of the .25 on mule deer but the new PVA Cayuga looks promising for hunting and blackjack is going to be releasing a hunting bullet in the 125 class next year. The future is looking good for fast twist 25’s with new high BC bullets coming out.

 

[b6graham]

What chassis would that 3.47 mag in a Tikka work with? Would I be able to have my bolt machined for a magnum?

tikka long action LSS ESS for starters

 

[Steve_O]

For the sake of conversation why would you choose the 25 over say a 180ish 7mm?

 

[b6graham]

For the sake of conversation why would you choose the 25 over say a 180ish 7mm?

faster. less wind drift. compared to 6.5

versus 7mm. more energy on target. better barrel life. at sea level in winter my 7SAW load is upwards of 1800 foot pounds at 500 for comparison

 

[kthomas]

For the sake of conversation why would you choose the 25 over say a 180ish 7mm?

Because a 7mm is not necessary. The right .25 is more then capable of doing what you are asking of it.

Less recoil, less powder, less expense in general in components.

 

[High Desert duck]

For the sake of conversation why would you choose the 25 over say a 180ish 7mm?

Nothing wrong with the 7’s. My son runs a 280 REM and his dope is almost as good as mine (drift) but he is pushing it hard and out of a long action. To match his velocity and stay on your short action you’d have to open up the bolt face for a magnum. If your mostly gonna bang steel long range the 131 grain blackjack is magic. Especially past 1000. The BC is .335 G7 in my guns. You were also looking for good brass plenty for the Creedmoor (I used necked down lapua 6.5 CM)
If your more hunting oriented the 7-08 might be good too. But I have no experience with it maybe someone else can chime in.
I attached my sons 280 drop chart and my 25CM so you can compare them. Keep in mind his drop and drift is MOA and mine is mils. Look for inches to compare. These are at our home range DA 7500
280 Remington

25 CM

 

[PWOCengineer70]

We may have led you down a rabbit hole suggesting the 25 but the 131 Ace is too good not to mention it. But since you did say you were looking for something bigger than 6.5 for hunting I think a 7SAW or 7-08(if you don’t reload) may be more what you are looking for. Both still have low recoil with a good brake which makes it pleasant for banging steel and trying to spot impacts.

I don’t blame you for leaving the 6.5. The amount of hype surrounding 6.5 creedmoor has always been a turn off for me. I only lasted 600 rounds before I ditched the creed for a .25 and have no regrets. If I need something bigger than .25 i’ll be picking one of the 7’s mentioned above.

 

[Franko]

You have a 308 boltface. You also mention that you want good brass availability. Because of this I am going to assume that you reload. My suggestions is 7mm-08. You get good ballistics, moderate recoil, and no shortage of suitable brass.

If that's not enough oomph for you then I suggest you sell your current rifle and go with a long action and a 7mm Remington Magnum.

 

[Delicatessen]

Unless you want to change your bolt face; a tikka is a good candidate for 284win as you can easily run them long. The only question is the chassis/stock You will be limited to about 3.5” coal if you have it in the longer configuration (bolt stop and correct stock/mag). A long 284 is around 3.25” with the 180 eldm. Otherwise things like the 280/280ai would be good but those may have length issues depending on your setup. There are other 6.5 choices like 6.5-284 or the 6.5x55ai or addiction variants.

 

[Steve_O]

Unless you want to change your bolt face; a tikka is a good candidate for 284win as you can easily run them long. The only question is the chassis/stock You will be limited to about 3.5” coal if you have it in the longer configuration (bolt stop and correct stock/mag). A long 284 is around 3.25” with the 180 eldm. Otherwise things like the 280/280ai would be good but those may have length issues depending on your setup. There are other 6.5 choices like 6.5-284 or the 6.5x55ai or addiction variants.

What’s a better chassis to be able to run longer mags besides the the others from MDT? Or do you recommend the ESS?

 

[clcustom1911]

Even with an AI 300wm magazine, your OAL max is probably gonna be 3.41"

Thats what my 7mm RM Tikka is limited to. I have a CDI bottom metal.

 

[Delicatessen]

What’s a better chassis to be able to run longer mags besides the the others from MDT? Or do you recommend the ESS?

In the chassis realm it’s mdt, xlr or a cadex. I generally like things like the bravo unfortunately they don’t do the longer magazines so it could be a cdi or mountain tactical inlet of a traditional stock or things like grs or woox that take the standard form factor bottom metal. I am probably missing an option or two but chassis/stock is mainly personal preference so whatever works for you.

 

[Codiekfx400]

I must be missing something here. Every caliber being suggested is less impressive than what he already has in the 6.5 Creedmoor. A 147 ELD with RL 26 behind it will do everything he needs. Why go through the headache of switching?

 

[clcustom1911]

I must be missing something here. Every caliber being suggested is less impressive than what he already has in the 6.5 Creedmoor. A 147 ELD with RL 26 behind it will do everything he needs. Why go through the headache of switching?

This is a great point. If he had an aftermarket 24" tube, he'd probably be able to push a 142-147 around 2900-2925 with R26.

With my factory Tac A1 I'm doing 2825-2850 with R26 and 142 Matchkings.

 

[LeftyJason]

Just a note to a bunch of you.

@LongRifles Inc. is supposed to be coming out with tikka bolts sometime. Original guess was fall 2020ish.

BTW our very own @BLKWLFK9 talked to @bohem twice on his podcast (the Just Fn Send It podcast) about those pva bullets mentioned above. Episodes 17 and 33.

Episode 17: Josh Kunz with PVA

Its a long episode, but I promise its worth it. My very very good friend, Josh Kunz from Patriot Valley Arms comes on and its a typical conversation that we could have on any given night. We talk beer, offshore fishing, dogs, solid lathed bullets, ELR, barrels and more. You are literally...

www.podbean.com

Episode 33: Josh Kunz With PVA Part 2

Josh filled in for the previously scheduled guest and we had an awesome chat about bullets, hunting, .22 ELR, the election, and other topics. Dont forget to like the video and comment in the podbean app/Itunes/etc. Also, make the move from the tyrannical social media tech giants and over to...

www.podbean.com

Really good and informative.

 

[Steve_O]

I must be missing something here. Every caliber being suggested is less impressive than what he already has in the 6.5 Creedmoor. A 147 ELD with RL 26 behind it will do everything he needs. Why go through the headache of switching?

To be honest Iam not unhappy with my Creed so keeping it is a consideration. I have been using factory Hornady ammo since it shoots so well but didn’t think about reloading for it and pushing the same 140 ish bullets faster.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I was doing load development this weekend with the 117gr .257 Cayuga's. 44gr of H4350 gave me 3007 fps (this is a documented slow ass barrel) with an SD of 8fps. I would venture to say that out of my other .25cm barrel, the same load would be 80-100 fps faster. That bullet at 3k alone will clobber tf out of a mule deer. Ive got some 120gr Seneca's loaded up to shoot next. This was 1 group with the cayugas

 

[BLKWLFK9]

And for the record, 44gr of H4350 showed 0 pressure on LRP norma brass. These solids can take a lot more powder due to their low bearing surface which in turn, drops the pressure significantly.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

The .257 solids would work phenomenally but even the blackjack Ace would do the trick without fail.

 

[Steve_O]

The .257 solids would work phenomenally but even the blackjack Ace would do the trick without fail.

I will definitely look into the .25 as well, looks very promising.

 

[Steel head]

I must be missing something here. Every caliber being suggested is less impressive than what he already has in the 6.5 Creedmoor. A 147 ELD with RL 26 behind it will do everything he needs. Why go through the headache of switching?

I disagree.
No way I’d trust an important shot to the 147 and the performance of a 284 pretty impressive.
Plus spotting impacts with a 180 is noticeably easier than 147’s at distance.

 

[bohem]

My $0.02 for what it's worth.

For a reliable 1,000yd shooting rifle the 6.5 Creedmoor does fine as do any of the creedmoor variants in 6, 25, 6.5, 7mm

For 500yd hunting on big game the 6.5 Creedmoor is more than capable with the caveat that the guy shooting it needs to hit vitals. Every caliber from 22LR to 50 BMG can be instantly lethal or it can be a mess. We as hunters need to have the wherewithal to make the proper shot.

I've personally killed a bunch of deer past 500yd with a 6mm BR, 6.5 Creedmoor, and bigger calibers. I've also seen several friends and my dad put down big deer and elk at 500+ yards (almost 900yd in reality). A couple of them were good sized deer shot with 130gr factory PRIME, the old stuff. One took a bullet at 515yd through both front shoulders. It absolutely anchored the animal and wrecked the front end of the deer. There's no argument that it was dead, it died with grass still in its mouth.

But all those shots were done with guys who placed the bullet well. A poorly placed shot at those distances would not be the cartridge's fault, the gun's fault, or the bullet's fault.

The Tikka is a very nice factory action, I've made a lot of very good replacement barrels for them. They shoot well, they're accurate, and they're smooth. Now that they're catching on in the US the aftermarket options for parts has gone up considerably since I got my first T3 about 8 years ago.

@coldboremiracle has taken several elk with a soft loaded 6.5 Creed shooting my 122gr hunting bullet and there were both DRT, they were all right about 500yd out.

If you go with something bigger, harder hitting, higher recoiling it is harder to shoot. It is also much more expensive to shoot. So a 6.5 Creed will be a very good choice for him. Instead of trying to dream up a situation where the rifle does every job from EDC to ELR, let's figure out what the rifle will be used for 85-90% of the time. Optimize it for that and you'll end up the most satisfied than if you try to build a rifle to do everything.

 

[fdkay]

I have found that 6.5 staball can push a 162 grn 7mm bullet to 2800 pretty easily with small rifle primer brass, I actually had 2900 out of my rather longish barrel, but reduced the charge due to ejector marks.
A 620+ bc at 2800 is hard to beat, unless you go magnum.
That's if you want to keep your setup like it is.
If you wanted to run long action, then a 6.5'06 AI or .280 AI would be dandy.

 

[Steve_O]

My $0.02 for what it's worth.

For a reliable 1,000yd shooting rifle the 6.5 Creedmoor does fine as do any of the creedmoor variants in 6, 25, 6.5, 7mm

For 500yd hunting on big game the 6.5 Creedmoor is more than capable with the caveat that the guy shooting it needs to hit vitals. Every caliber from 22LR to 50 BMG can be instantly lethal or it can be a mess. We as hunters need to have the wherewithal to make the proper shot.

I've personally killed a bunch of deer past 500yd with a 6mm BR, 6.5 Creedmoor, and bigger calibers. I've also seen several friends and my dad put down big deer and elk at 500+ yards (almost 900yd in reality). A couple of them were good sized deer shot with 130gr factory PRIME, the old stuff. One took a bullet at 515yd through both front shoulders. It absolutely anchored the animal and wrecked the front end of the deer. There's no argument that it was dead, it died with grass still in its mouth.

But all those shots were done with guys who placed the bullet well. A poorly placed shot at those distances would not be the cartridge's fault, the gun's fault, or the bullet's fault.

The Tikka is a very nice factory action, I've made a lot of very good replacement barrels for them. They shoot well, they're accurate, and they're smooth. Now that they're catching on in the US the aftermarket options for parts has gone up considerably since I got my first T3 about 8 years ago.

@coldboremiracle has taken several elk with a soft loaded 6.5 Creed shooting my 122gr hunting bullet and there were both DRT, they were all right about 500yd out.

If you go with something bigger, harder hitting, higher recoiling it is harder to shoot. It is also much more expensive to shoot. So a 6.5 Creed will be a very good choice for him. Instead of trying to dream up a situation where the rifle does every job from EDC to ELR, let's figure out what the rifle will be used for 85-90% of the time. Optimize it for that and you'll end up the most satisfied than if you try to build a rifle to do everything.

Well said, 90 % of the time this Tikka will be at the range as a learning tool to hone my shooting skills but want to take it to Wyoming and hunt here in Texas during hunting season. Want this rifle to be a good wind shooter. I have other rifles for other things.

 

[bohem]

I have found that 6.5 staball can push a 162 grn 7mm bullet to 2800 pretty easily with small rifle primer brass, I actually had 2900 out of my rather longish barrel, but reduced the charge due to ejector marks.
A 620+ bc at 2800 is hard to beat, unless you go magnum.
That's if you want to keep your setup like it is.
If you wanted to run long action, then a 6.5'06 AI or .280 AI would be dandy.

Good points. Thought having had a both of those cartridges he is going to be cramped in a Tikka with both.

 

[Steve_O]

Good points. Thought having had a both of those cartridges he is going to be cramped in a Tikka with both.

In my short action Tikka would you recommend the .25 Creedmoor or keep my 6.5? Want to keep it a .308 boltface. Also what would the COAL of a 131 .25 Creedmoor be and would it fit in a MDT metal mag inside of a ACC chassis? And thanks again everyone for the help, this is my first Tikka so trying to figure this platform out.

 

[bohem]

In my short action Tikka would you recommend the .25 Creedmoor or keep my 6.5? Want to keep it a .308 boltface. Also what would the COAL of a 131 .25 Creedmoor be and would it fit in a MDT metal mag inside of a ACC chassis? And thanks again everyone for the help, this is my first Tikka so trying to figure this platform out.

6 of one, half dozen of the other for what you want to do with it
Both are capable of everything you are talking about, 6.5 has the edge in readily available ammo for both jobs.

The 25 creed is flatter and faster, better wind are asking to do.

The 25 is ballistically superior but you will always reload. The 131 ace is the only jacketed bullet out there worth shooting. And for hunting it does fine. I also make a 120gr match bullet and a 117gr hunting bullet in the solid game.

I dont know about the mags but I can't see the 131 in a 25 creed not fitting.

 

[hereinaz]

I disagree.
No way I’d trust an important shot to the 147 and the performance of a 284 pretty impressive.
Plus spotting impacts with a 180 is noticeably easier than 147’s at distance.

I have to agree. IMO, the advantage of a .284 180 vld for hunting long range is significant.

You can do it with less, but I like a 180 vld out of a short mag, especially at distances over 500. If you are getting a gun to do more than a 6.5 cm, then make the next step up. Sure, you can go to a faster 6.5, but it still won't hit as hard as a .284 at the same velocity.

 

[hereinaz]

Well said, 90 % of the time this Tikka will be at the range as a learning tool to hone my shooting skills but want to take it to Wyoming and hunt here in Texas during hunting season. Want this rifle to be a good wind shooter. I have other rifles for other things.

Hunting deer and smaller inside 500, the 25 creedmoor will give you an advantage over the 6.5, it is just faster. And, inside 500 yards, you could just go with a 6 creedmoor for hunting. It is all about shot placement and there are good factory loads that will work. Barrel life is reduced as you shrink calibers, that is one drawback.

 

[Steve_O]

6 of one, half dozen of the other for what you want to do with it
Both are capable of everything you are talking about, 6.5 has the edge in readily available ammo for both jobs.

The 25 creed is flatter and faster, better wind are asking to do.

The 25 is ballistically superior but you will always reload. The 131 ace is the only jacketed bullet out there worth shooting. And for hunting it does fine. I also make a 120gr match bullet and a 117gr hunting bullet in the solid game.

I dont know about the mags but I can't see the 131 in a 25 creed not fitting.

If I do go .25 I would definitely pick up your solids. I do like the fact 6.5 can be bought if need be, the only thing Iam concerned about with .25 is the lack of bullets available. What is the barrel life of a .25? And how does your solids compare in BC to something like the 143-147 ELDX? The more I think about it I may just build this rifle as a 90 percent target and 10 percent hunting and build another hunting based rifle. Thanks again bud for your help.

 

[spife7980]

If I do go .25 I would definitely pick up your solids. I do like the fact 6.5 can be bought if need be, the only thing Iam concerned about with .25 is the lack of bullets available. What is the barrel life of a .25? And how does your solids compare in BC to something like the 143-147 ELDX? The more I think about it I may just build this rifle as a 90 percent target and 10 percent hunting and build another hunting based rifle. Thanks again bud for your help.

Go with the one you can get a barrels worth of ammo or dies and components for, in hand, first. No sense building up something that you cant feed.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I'm using Hornady 129gr SST in my Tikka Super Varmint 6.5 Creedmoor.
I find it very accurate, and devastating on kangaroos and other ferals.
Above everything, shot placement is king.

 

[Steve_O]

I'm using Hornady 129gr SST in my Tikka Super Varmint 6.5 Creedmoor.
I find it very accurate, and devastating on kangaroos and other ferals.
Above everything, shot placement is king.

Very true. Just got back from Wyoming a few weeks ago and killed two Antelope one at 472 the other at 375 with Hornady 143 ELDX.

 

[Codiekfx400]

I have to agree. IMO, the advantage of a .284 180 vld for hunting long range is significant.

You can do it with less, but I like a 180 vld out of a short mag, especially at distances over 500. If you are getting a gun to do more than a 6.5 cm, then make the next step up. Sure, you can go to a faster 6.5, but it still won't hit as hard as a .284 at the same velocity.

I agree the 7mm will hit harder. But if we go down that road why not a 338 Lapua. I was just giving my opinion that the 6.5 Creed would work quite well for what he is trying to accomplish. If he wants something different and wants to try some solid type bullets that’s great.

 

[PWOCengineer70]

Go check out blackjack bullets Facebook page. There’s been several posts in the last few days showing what the .25 can do on muleys and elk

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

I had a Tikka 25-06. That was a great rifle, reloaded with Hornady SST as well.

 

[bohem]

If I do go .25 I would definitely pick up your solids. I do like the fact 6.5 can be bought if need be, the only thing Iam concerned about with .25 is the lack of bullets available. What is the barrel life of a .25? And how does your solids compare in BC to something like the 143-147 ELDX? The more I think about it I may just build this rifle as a 90 percent target and 10 percent hunting and build another hunting based rifle. Thanks again bud for your help.

Bc is only half the equation

Read the paper i published about Trajectory Normalizing Factor, it is on my website.

BC*MV is a simple way of comparing

I am shooting a 122 hunting bullet at 3,050fps with a well validated .283g7 and there have been a few elk clobbered with it. Every week we get more pictures from guys who shot some kind if big game with them and they hit like lightning.

 

[fdkay]

Bc is only half the equation

Read the paper i published about Trajectory Normalizing Factor, it is on my website.

BC*MV is a simple way of comparing

I am shooting a 122 hunting bullet at 3,050fps with a well validated .283g7 and there have been a few elk clobbered with it. Every week we get more pictures from guys who shot some kind if big game with them and they hit like lightning.

What many of the folks tend to dismiss is sectional density as well.
Nothing wrong with a heavy for caliber .25, though it is a bit of a boutique bullet, with limited availability ( I have many times wondered why there isn't a SAAMI .25 on a .308 case).
A 140 class 6.5 bullet has a very high sectional density, they will penetrate.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

berger is releasing their fast twist .257 bullet sometime or another. my guess it will be around shot show time frame. Word on the street is there are at least 2 other manufacturers with plans on releasing a fast twist .257 in the future too. Blackjack were the trail blazers in the .257 game. PVA was the first to enter the solid game with one, and all the rest will be following suit in the near future.

 

[hereinaz]

I agree the 7mm will hit harder. But if we go down that road why not a 338 Lapua. I was just giving my opinion that the 6.5 Creed would work quite well for what he is trying to accomplish. If he wants something different and wants to try some solid type bullets that’s great.

Very true, he can do it with the 6.5 creed, especially inside 500. Bullet placement is everything and the heavier 6mm and .25 will also easily handle deer at that distance.

I was just adding that the 7mm has something a little more but not too much, if he wanted to consider it. My reason is that the 7mm 180 gr bullet has sufficient oomph, which is not inconsequential, and the recoil is still manageable. A bump to a 300 magnum delivers more, and a 338 as well. But, it comes at a cost of recoil and management of the same.

 

[hereinaz]

berger is releasing their fast twist .257 bullet sometime or another. my guess it will be around shot show time frame. Word on the street is there are at least 2 other manufacturers with plans on releasing a fast twist .257 in the future too. Blackjack were the trail blazers in the .257 game. PVA was the first to enter the solid game with one, and all the rest will be following suit in the near future.

If the Berger is close, it may push me over the edge and I would pick up a .25. I hear the same thing, but my Berger insider is tight lipped...

 

[BLKWLFK9]

If the Berger is close, it may push me over the edge and I would pick up a .25. I hear the same thing, but my Berger insider is tight lipped...

As they're all gonna be. Lol. Those pesky NDA's get in the way.