Cartridge selection

[Mtf5104]

Hey guys, I’ve been thinking of building my own custom precision rifle. The hardest thing I have to decide is which cartridge I should select for PRS competitions. I’ve seen from “What the pros use” that the most popular bullet is the dasher followed by 6 Creedmoor. Was wondering what everyone’s opinion was.

Also, it seems like it’s impossible to get dasher ammo anywhere. Do you have to know how to load your own ammo to be able to shoot the 6 dasher? The 6 Creed looks sold out everywhere too, was wondering how you guys were all managing.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Dave62677]

If u don’t reload, stick with 65cm

 

[KnowNothing256]

Guessing you don’t reload? If you do, some of the heavy 22-cal rounds (22BR variants in the 85-90gr range, around 2900-3200 fps) are excellent ballistically, have equal or better barrel life, and less recoil and less cost, plus you aren’t competing with all the other 6mm shooters for components. If you’re shooting at 1k+ they start to lose ground to the 6mm and 6.5mm rounds, but most people are shooting most courses of fire 800 yards and in, and the heavy 22s shine in that zone.

If you don’t reload, I’d look at the smaller popular 6mm cartridges, whatever you can stock up on right now (like, literally right now). 6CM is fine, but more recoil, plus less barrel life than is ideal for not huge ballistic gains.

 

[Mechdesigner]

“What the pros use” article is a bit dated. 6BRA is definitely taking a big hold as the fireforming process is much easier than dasher. 6GT is also a lot more popular now. Most guys are using a 6mm BR variant (6br, 6bra, 6 dasher) all have to be hand loaded. The best factory option is 6 GT with Hornady coming out with ammo now. 6 creedmoor is a great cartridge but eats up barrels every 1500 rounds. new shooters in my opinion should start with a 6.5 creedmoor for ease of finding ammo / components and good barrel life. The 22 cal options will do you no favors out of the gate with learning the fundamentals and makes for a sloppy shooter.

 

[Birddog6424]

Guessing you don’t reload? If you do, some of the heavy 22-cal rounds (22BR variants in the 85-90gr range, around 2900-3200 fps) are excellent ballistically, have equal or better barrel life, and less recoil and less cost, plus you aren’t competing with all the other 6mm shooters for components. If you’re shooting at 1k+ they start to lose ground to the 6mm and 6.5mm rounds, but most people are shooting most courses of fire 800 yards and in, and the heavy 22s shine in that zone.

If you don’t reload, I’d look at the smaller popular 6mm cartridges, whatever you can stock up on right now (like, literally right now). 6CM is fine, but more recoil, plus less barrel life than is ideal for not huge ballistic gains.

I also used to think the 22's gave up ground at distance, but they really don't. They run really well with the 6mms.

I've shot out 4 barrels of 22BR, I'm on my 5th running that at 3040fps with the Berger 85.5gr Hybrid. I also now have a 22 Dasher running the same bullet at 3080fps.

Here's how it stacks up against my 6GT running a 115gr DTAC at 2850fps in a 10mph FV crosser at 1500 yards.




There's some pretty high performance 22s out there these days.

Guys running the 90gr Atip are using a .305 G7 BC at 3050 to 3100fps. Pretty much outperforming the Dasher/BRA/GT in drop and wind deflection. It's like a 6 Creedmoor with 30% less recoil and twice the barrel life.

 

[Mtf5104]

“What the pros use” article is a bit dated. 6BRA is definitely taking a big hold as the fireforming process is much easier than dasher. 6GT is also a lot more popular now. Most guys are using a 6mm BR variant (6br, 6bra, 6 dasher) all have to be hand loaded. The best factory option is 6 GT with Hornady coming out with ammo now. 6 creedmoor is a great cartridge but eats up barrels every 1500 rounds. new shooters in my opinion should start with a 6.5 creedmoor for ease of finding ammo / components and good barrel life. The 22 cal options will do you no favors out of the gate with learning the fundamentals and makes for a sloppy shooter.

Yea I heard Frank talk on his podcast about the GT and how it’s going to replace the Dasher. There’s a lot of hype behind that cartridge and there’s more and more people in the top 50 in the PRS world shooting the GT. If it gets manufactured by Hornady, I think I’ll probably lean toward that. Also, I was looking at the 6 Creed because you can buy factory ammo for that too and it’s seems like a great all around cartridge.

I know that I’ll have to eventually start loading my own ammo but it’s nice to have a backup plan in case if I am terrible at it.

 

[Mtf5104]

I also used to think the 22's gave up ground at distance, but they really don't. They run really well with the 6mms.

I've shot out 4 barrels of 22BR, I'm on my 5th running that at 3040fps with the Berger 85.5gr Hybrid. I also now have a 22 Dasher running the same bullet at 3080fps.

Here's how it stacks up against my 6GT running a 115gr DTAC at 2850fps in a 10mph FV crosser at 1500 yards.




There's some pretty high performance 22s out there these days.

Guys running the 90gr Atip are using a .305 G7 BC at 3050 to 3100fps. Pretty much outperforming the Dasher/BRA/GT in drop and wind deflection. It's like a 6 Creedmoor with 30% less recoil and twice the barrel life.

This is really intersecting. I’ve never heard of anyone really talk about 22’s in the PRS world.

 

[Mtf5104]

Guessing you don’t reload? If you do, some of the heavy 22-cal rounds (22BR variants in the 85-90gr range, around 2900-3200 fps) are excellent ballistically, have equal or better barrel life, and less recoil and less cost, plus you aren’t competing with all the other 6mm shooters for components. If you’re shooting at 1k+ they start to lose ground to the 6mm and 6.5mm rounds, but most people are shooting most courses of fire 800 yards and in, and the heavy 22s shine in that zone.

If you don’t reload, I’d look at the smaller popular 6mm cartridges, whatever you can stock up on right now (like, literally right now). 6CM is fine, but more recoil, plus less barrel life than is ideal for not huge ballistic gains.

Yea I saw that like 5 of the ELR guys were shooting 6 creedmoor for targets 1500 yards in 2020. I just think it’s a cool cartridge that can be used for PRS and longer range applications from what I’ve been reading. I know the barrel life isn’t great in them but what the hell, my daughter doesn’t need to go to college anyway.

 

[Lightning8]

I just went through this as a new PRS competitor - I bought a complete MPA rifle in 6BR. I wanted a 6mm and wanted long barrel life and "easy" reloading (no case forming, etc.). I am lucky that I already had primers and some Varget and have added more Varget. Lapua brass easy to find. I will run Barnes 105 Match Burners this year as Bergers too hard to find.

 

[superde]

Factory ammo = 6 Creed - Easier to find at the moment and 20% cheaper than 6.5 Creedmoor. The ammo cost savings is basically a wash with the shorter barrel life.

Reloads = 6 BR. The easy button for reloading, burns less powder (4 rounds loaded for every 3 of 6 Creed), and it is a inherently precise cartridge.

 

[Lightning8]

The people I see shooting factory ammo are shooting 6mm Creedmoor.

 

[rothgyr]

I also used to think the 22's gave up ground at distance, but they really don't. They run really well with the 6mms.

I've shot out 4 barrels of 22BR, I'm on my 5th running that at 3040fps with the Berger 85.5gr Hybrid. I also now have a 22 Dasher running the same bullet at 3080fps.

Here's how it stacks up against my 6GT running a 115gr DTAC at 2850fps in a 10mph FV crosser at 1500 yards.




There's some pretty high performance 22s out there these days.

Guys running the 90gr Atip are using a .305 G7 BC at 3050 to 3100fps. Pretty much outperforming the Dasher/BRA/GT in drop and wind deflection. It's like a 6 Creedmoor with 30% less recoil and twice the barrel life.

Columns: bullet, diameter, G1 BC, G7 BC, bullet weight

I did a spreadsheet of BCs last year and was pretty surprised by the numbers on that 85.5 hybrid. It's up there with the 105 hybrids and 107 SMKs, but I still hadn't seen much said about how they actually group, etc. since they were so new last year.

The primary issue I see with .223 bullets is that they can be harder to spot impacts/misses at longer ranges. Fortunately most matches I go to have indicators at longer distance, so it's not too much of an issue in my region.

To OP's question - 6 Creedmoor factory stuff seems to aim for the 2950 FPS range, and probably won't torch your throat any faster than a dasher or GT since it's pretty mild. If you're only just getting started reloading, I'd still recommend the 6 creedmoor for now since you can run either small or large rifle primers, depending on what you can find, and "magnum 6mm" powders are slightly easier to find than varget/h4895/rl16, etc., at least for me. I went 6 XC last year because I had 2k large rifle primers on hand and was dwindling on my small primers, and 6 XC was the smallest case I could come up with that took the large primers. Whatever you can secure large lots of for shooting a high volume without having to redo load development is going to be your friend.

 

[Lightning8]

I shoot a lot of 223 with 80 grain projectiles - it is markedly harder to see impacts with 22 projectiles vs 6mm projectiles past 800 yards. I run the 223 as a trainer because so easy to load on Dillon 550 and cheap brass, etc.

I bought a 6BR for primary PRS rifle this season, but I also have a 6XC for the reasons listed above - can use small or large primers plus a wider variety of projectiles and powders. A 6XC with 112/115 at 2880 works very well.

 

[Birddog6424]

I shoot a lot of 223 with 80 grain projectiles - it is markedly harder to see impacts with 22 projectiles vs 6mm projectiles past 800 yards. I run the 223 as a trainer because so easy to load on Dillon 550 and cheap brass, etc.

I bought a 6BR for primary PRS rifle this season, but I also have a 6XC for the reasons listed above - can use small or large primers plus a wider variety of projectiles and powders. A 6XC with 112/115 at 2880 works very well.

It's not really a valid comparison with a 80gr bullet from a 223. You're comparing a smaller cartridge and a lighter, lower BC bullet, to a larger cartridge running heavy, higher BC 112gr and 115gr bullets. Its apples to oranges. But heavier, higher BC .224 bullets from the same cartridges are neck and neck.

The 6mm is not a big splash bullet. Five years ago when 6s really began becoming prevalent, there was a huge struggle to spot impacts and bullet splashes. It forced matches to adapt, the PRS "requires" targets beyond 800 yards to have hit indicators. Which helps everyone.

Apples to apples a 22 Dasher running a 85.5gr Hybrid at 3080fps is lockstep with a 6 Dasher running a 105gr Hybrid at 2900fps in terms of foot pounds of energy (258 & 257ftlbs respectively at 1500yds). The 6 Dasher goes subsonic at 1400 yards versus 1560yds for the 22 Dasher shooting in my environmentals. Its exactly the same with the 90gr Atip and the 110gr Atip from the same cartridge (289 & 299ftlbs at 1500yds)

From a physics standpoint, there's nothing to indicate that the 6mm creates any more splash or energy at the target than the 22. You can create greater disparity by comparing the lighter, lower BC .224s to the heavier 6s, but again, it's not really a fair comparison. The heavy 6mm 115gr DTAC versus the heavy .224 95gr SMK also yields the same results in energy on target pretty much throughout the bullet flight. The difference being, the bullet is faster, flatter, and carries further before going transonic/subsonic in the .224.

I have shot roughly 12k 88gr ELDMs and more recently about 2k 85.5gr LRHTs, I honestly see no difference in bullet splash between them and my 6mm. Neither are great, but there's no advantage to be had by sticking with the 6mm.

 

[Lightning8]

I am a new PRS competitor, so I am open to learn - I have seen zero 22 caliber cartridges at the PRS matches I have attended (Georgia and TN so limited sample size) except for a few shooters competing with 223 in TAC class. In fact, based on recent threads, I just picked up 22BR dies as I may rechamber a PRS rifle to 22 something in future.

 

[Birddog6424]

I am a new PRS competitor, so I am open to learn - I have seen zero 22 caliber cartridges at the PRS matches I have attended (Georgia and TN so limited sample size) except for a few shooters competing with 223 in TAC class. In fact, based on recent threads, I just picked up 22BR dies as I may rechamber a PRS rifle to 22 something in future.

I dont think you'll ever see huge numbers in the 22 caliber. There's two factors that really influence that.

The first being a lot of guys have been winning for the last 4 years with Dashers and BRAs. You can't argue against results. Some of those guys believe slowing the bullet way down so you can spot your own trace is a great reason to run slow. That second part sees some debate. One of the most winning shooters in the PRS last year believe that's not really true and a lot of people agree with that. I'm in that camp as well. I practiced it extensively, I can spot trace at the apogee. I just figured out it rarely to never shows me anything useful. Seeing it for a split second doesn't mean I can tell if it's high, low, left, or right. So accurate or not, there's some people who started the spot your trace trend, and its going to take a bit for reality to settle in that it's very situational and building a caliber and velocity around it doesn't exactly make sense.

The second factor is what we are talking about here. Many shooters don't realize the high level the .224s can perform. I do think it's catching on. I do think they will become more prevalent. But it will take time.

Recent years has seen a significant improvement in bullet quality. I think the 6mm was the beneficiary of those improvements first. Now .224s are catching up. The 85.5gr Berger is new, as is the 90gr Atip. I think those are the best two choices out there for a serious 22 shooter, followed by the 88gr ELDM and 95gr SMK.

So I believe we will see more competitors shooting. 224 going forward, but it will never surpass the 6mm.

 

[rothgyr]

I am a new PRS competitor, so I am open to learn - I have seen zero 22 caliber cartridges at the PRS matches I have attended (Georgia and TN so limited sample size) except for a few shooters competing with 223 in TAC class. In fact, based on recent threads, I just picked up 22BR dies as I may rechamber a PRS rifle to 22 something in future.

I've seen a 22 creedmoor (local gunsmith's gun, so I guess he didn't care about barrel torching) and a 22 br, but yeah, the .22 calibers aren't as common as 6mm.

 

[superde]

From a physics standpoint, there's nothing to indicate that the 6mm creates any more splash or energy at the target than the 22.

I’ve had conversations with other shooters and we agree, that you can see the 110 Atips and 109 Hybrids better at distance than you can see the 105’s or 103’s in 6mm. 4 grains of bullet shouldn’t mean a thing, but we all have come to the same conclusion that we can impacts better, especially in high mirage.

A buddy runs 90 grain Atips at 3150 and you can see them fairly well (especially the fireball). So as you stated, velocity can make some of that up. Another reason people are running slower is to see those 1 MOA targets inside 500 when the wind is blowing. If you miss you are probably not going to see it because the recoil impulse isn’t over by the time the bullet is in the dirt.

And I have no scientific data to back all this up. This is just personal observations of shooting for a long time, and asking other shooters (most of who are very accomplished) what they have seen.

 

[Sheldon N]

but there's no advantage to be had by sticking with the 6mm.

I think there's a couple small advantages still.

Likely an advantage in barrel life and as a result consistency of tune (less throat erosion). To make an 85.5 go 3080 fps and a 105 go 2900 fps requires roughly the same amount of powder and case pressure, give or take a tiny bit. Equal powder quantity and pressure through a smaller diameter bore will increase throat erosion. The barrel life estimator tool out there gives it a ~35% barrel life advantage to the 6mm vs a 22 cal, assuming equal powder/pressure.

While energy at 1500 yards might be close to equal, there's about a 10% advantage to energy on target for the 6mm in the 700-800 yard range. That's the distance that can be troublesome to spot. Square hit on the chest of an bigger IPSC or big animal plate so there's no plate twist, slightly adverse weather conditions to make seeing the "poof" harder. Probably a non-issue most of the time.

 

[Birddog6424]

I’ve had conversations with other shooters and we agree, that you can see the 110 Atips and 109 Hybrids better at distance than you can see the 105’s or 103’s in 6mm. 4 grains of bullet shouldn’t mean a thing, but we all have come to the same conclusion that we can impacts better, especially in high mirage.

A buddy runs 90 grain Atips at 3150 and you can see them fairly well (especially the fireball). So as you stated, velocity can make some of that up. Another reason people are running slower is to see those 1 MOA targets inside 500 when the wind is blowing. If you miss you are probably not going to see it because the recoil impulse isn’t over by the time the bullet is in the dirt.

And I have no scientific data to back all this up. This is just personal observations of shooting for a long time, and asking other shooters (most of who are very accomplished) what they have seen.

Yeh, 4grs of bullet weight doesn't mean much. Physics being what they are and the most reliable source of performance measurement. Its pretty difficult to argue with it. But there could be a slight increase in foot pounds of energy between those weights.

I would have to say personal observation is extremely anecdotal. Every single round could be striking the ground or the berm downrange with the exact same amount of energy, making them equal. But what you see can be entirely different, as backdrops, environmentals, and every simple impact placement is not equal.

Dump a few rounds of one type into a spot or two that shows little splash versus a couple shots into soft, loose dirt, and suddenly the evidence is slewed. It looks like one has better splash. Too many variables to account for.

 

[Birddog6424]

I think there's a couple small advantages still.

Likely an advantage in barrel life and as a result consistency of tune (less throat erosion). To make an 85.5 go 3080 fps and a 105 go 2900 fps requires roughly the same amount of powder and case pressure, give or take a tiny bit. Equal powder quantity and pressure through a smaller diameter bore will increase throat erosion. The barrel life estimator tool out there gives it a ~35% barrel life advantage to the 6mm vs a 22 cal, assuming equal powder/pressure.

While energy at 1500 yards might be close to equal, there's about a 10% advantage to energy on target for the 6mm in the 700-800 yard range. That's the distance that can be troublesome to spot. Square hit on the chest of an bigger IPSC or big animal plate so there's no plate twist, slightly adverse weather conditions to make seeing the "poof" harder. Probably a non-issue most of the time.

It depends on velocity. Less than 3100fps seems to be the sweet spot. Those barrels are seeing the same barrel.life on average as the 6mms. I got 2800 out of my last barrel with a starting velocity of 3040fps. It was still shooting when I pulled it.

Like so many other things it just depends. Shooting in last years Pacific northwest heatwave I smoked my 6GT running a very pedestrian 2850fps in 1880 rounds. It was NOT shooting when I pulled it

 

[260284]

I also used to think the 22's gave up ground at distance, but they really don't. They run really well with the 6mms.

I've shot out 4 barrels of 22BR, I'm on my 5th running that at 3040fps with the Berger 85.5gr Hybrid. I also now have a 22 Dasher running the same bullet at 3080fps.

Here's how it stacks up against my 6GT running a 115gr DTAC at 2850fps in a 10mph FV crosser at 1500 yards.




There's some pretty high performance 22s out there these days.

Guys running the 90gr Atip are using a .305 G7 BC at 3050 to 3100fps. Pretty much outperforming the Dasher/BRA/GT in drop and wind deflection. It's like a 6 Creedmoor with 30% less recoil and twice the barrel life.

I put 1800 rounds on a 22BR a few years ago shooting local PRS matches using the 88gr ELDM at about 3000 fps. Consistently placed in the top 10-15 that summer. Haven't shot any matches except for a NRL Hunter since then. The 22GT or 22Dasher look pretty good. I guess I need to try some 85.5 Bergers out of the 22BR.

 

[Birddog6424]

I put 1800 rounds on a 22BR a few years ago shooting local PRS matches using the 88gr ELDM at about 3000 fps. Consistently placed in the top 10-15 that summer. Haven't shot any matches except for a NRL Hunter since then. The 22GT or 22Dasher look pretty good. I guess I need to try some 85.5 Bergers out of the 22BR.

I do love the 22BR. 2990 to 3000fps is a great velocity with that cartridge and 88s. I mostly shoot the 88 still. At $130 for 500 they are great value and shoot very well.

The 85.5gr LRHT has some great characteristics. The BC is a little better than the 88 ELDM. And it's SD of bullet BC is a little better. So better quality control and consistency. The bearing surface is slightly shorter than the 88, and it tends to run about 15fps faster than the 88 with the same load. At twice the price of 88s I pretty much save them for two day matches and run the Hornadys for everything else.

If a guy didn't mind the price of Atips, the .224 90gr runs about a .305 G7 BC. Compared to the .306 BC I run my 115gr DTACS at in my 6GT, that pretty much has a 22 Dasher or 22 GT blowing me out of the water. Same BC, over 200fps faster.