OK you could say this is a question for the reloading forum but its a job that I did and this is the problem Im being questioned on. Just chambered a .308 recently which is shooting absolutely brilliantly, headspaced right on bottom tolerance ( less than 1 thou clearance) and everything couldnt be better. Only thing is its showing black fouling around the neck area which although is'nt a problem, my customer doesnt like it and wants it solved. any suggestions.
Gunsmithing Case blackening at the neck
- Thread starter gamma
- Start date
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Yes,
His powder charge is too low. If you are sure on the chamber size then this is definitely the problem.
Ask him to give you his load and PM me or post in the reloading forum.
madd0c
Yes,
His powder charge is too low. If you are sure on the chamber size then this is definitely the problem.
Ask him to give you his load and PM me or post in the reloading forum.
madd0c
Re: Case blackening at the neck
That sounds about right not enough pressure to seal the case neck aginst the chamber to keep the dirty stuff out.
Dustin
That sounds about right not enough pressure to seal the case neck aginst the chamber to keep the dirty stuff out.
Dustin
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Oh, and I guess I shouldn't have said "definitely". Is this new brass or previously fired, and how many times. If the neck is work hardened, then the proper charge can also start to show fouling, but I would still put my money on charge to low.
madd0c
Oh, and I guess I shouldn't have said "definitely". Is this new brass or previously fired, and how many times. If the neck is work hardened, then the proper charge can also start to show fouling, but I would still put my money on charge to low.
madd0c
Re: Case blackening at the neck
He has actually tried all this and even went almost dangerously high with his loading and still getting the same also new brass is making no difference. Just wondering if the chamber is too tight, would another thou maybe get it sealing.
He has actually tried all this and even went almost dangerously high with his loading and still getting the same also new brass is making no difference. Just wondering if the chamber is too tight, would another thou maybe get it sealing.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
is the blackening going into the shoulder area or just the neck?
is the blackening going into the shoulder area or just the neck?
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is the blackening going into the shoulder area or just the neck? </div></div>
Just the neck.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is the blackening going into the shoulder area or just the neck? </div></div>
Just the neck.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Is he neck turning?
Is he neck turning?
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is the blackening going into the shoulder area or just the neck? </div></div>
Just the neck. </div></div>
i wouldn't loose any sleep over it. if it's getting into the shoulder or beyond, <span style="font-style: italic">then</span> i would be concerned.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mikki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is the blackening going into the shoulder area or just the neck? </div></div>
Just the neck. </div></div>
i wouldn't loose any sleep over it. if it's getting into the shoulder or beyond, <span style="font-style: italic">then</span> i would be concerned.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Unless he is tuning necks to fit the chamber he is going to get black fouling on the neck of his brass no matter what he does and there is nothing you can do to fix it short of cutting him a new chamber with a reamer that will require him to turn necks.
Why is he complaining about it anyway, that's what they make brass tumblers for?
Unless he is tuning necks to fit the chamber he is going to get black fouling on the neck of his brass no matter what he does and there is nothing you can do to fix it short of cutting him a new chamber with a reamer that will require him to turn necks.
Why is he complaining about it anyway, that's what they make brass tumblers for?
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Hater and 300,
That is exactly what I said in Pms to mikki. Well actually I said the guy needed to grow a pair if the rifle is shooting well
Mikki, You might want to tell this thorn in your side that cartridges full of propellant turn in to carbonaceous gasses when the priming compound is ignited by percussion and that if he want a carbon free gun that Red Rider makes some good ones. Also that people with some experience (Hater and 300 not me LOL) all think that this is a normal occurence when shooting a rifle.
Oh, and if the gun is shooting as well as you say it is in Pms, then I would be willing to take this non-eco friendly carbon producing monstrosity off his hands for his cost
madd0c
Hater and 300,
That is exactly what I said in Pms to mikki. Well actually I said the guy needed to grow a pair if the rifle is shooting well
Mikki, You might want to tell this thorn in your side that cartridges full of propellant turn in to carbonaceous gasses when the priming compound is ignited by percussion and that if he want a carbon free gun that Red Rider makes some good ones. Also that people with some experience (Hater and 300 not me LOL) all think that this is a normal occurence when shooting a rifle.
Oh, and if the gun is shooting as well as you say it is in Pms, then I would be willing to take this non-eco friendly carbon producing monstrosity off his hands for his cost
madd0c
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I had a similar condition when I attempted to use a powder That was too slow for my cartridge. As mentioned some blackening is normal
I had a similar condition when I attempted to use a powder That was too slow for my cartridge. As mentioned some blackening is normal
Re: Case blackening at the neck
He needs to anneal the necks, it will help. You said his powder charge is dangerously high already in some cases.
Not all of the black soot will disappear from the neck, but annealed necks will help mitigate it.
He needs to anneal the necks, it will help. You said his powder charge is dangerously high already in some cases.
Not all of the black soot will disappear from the neck, but annealed necks will help mitigate it.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless he is tuning necks to fit the chamber he is going to get black fouling on the neck of his brass no matter what he does and there is nothing you can do to fix it short of cutting him a new chamber with a reamer that will require him to turn necks.</div></div>
Ummm.... we get soot on our tight necked 6PPC's all the time. And that's running with .0015" total clearence. Pressure isn't an issue either.
You can read the soot and tell how concentric the throat is to the chamber...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless he is tuning necks to fit the chamber he is going to get black fouling on the neck of his brass no matter what he does and there is nothing you can do to fix it short of cutting him a new chamber with a reamer that will require him to turn necks.</div></div>
Ummm.... we get soot on our tight necked 6PPC's all the time. And that's running with .0015" total clearence. Pressure isn't an issue either.
You can read the soot and tell how concentric the throat is to the chamber...
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ300MAG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless he is tuning necks to fit the chamber he is going to get black fouling on the neck of his brass no matter what he does and there is nothing you can do to fix it short of cutting him a new chamber with a reamer that will require him to turn necks.</div></div>
Ummm.... we get soot on our tight necked 6PPC's all the time. And that's running with .0015" total clearence. Pressure isn't an issue either.
You can read the soot and tell how concentric the throat is to the chamber...
</div></div>
I didn't say it would totally fix it, tight necks will just lessen it, and if you run tight necks any soot you get will rub off with a clean rag or your fingertips. Soot and fouling are two different things .0015" isn't tight enough either. I got 6mmBR that are tighter then that where no case re-sizing is needed after firing, new bullet, powder, primer and shoot. No soot or fouling to speak of and if there is it wipes off with my fingers. 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ300MAG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless he is tuning necks to fit the chamber he is going to get black fouling on the neck of his brass no matter what he does and there is nothing you can do to fix it short of cutting him a new chamber with a reamer that will require him to turn necks.</div></div>
Ummm.... we get soot on our tight necked 6PPC's all the time. And that's running with .0015" total clearence. Pressure isn't an issue either.
You can read the soot and tell how concentric the throat is to the chamber...
</div></div>
I didn't say it would totally fix it, tight necks will just lessen it, and if you run tight necks any soot you get will rub off with a clean rag or your fingertips. Soot and fouling are two different things
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Buy the gun. Whatever it costs, it's cheap at twice the price. Refuse to do any further business with him afterward.
Dealing with fools is an occupational hazard for everyone who is forced to deal with the general public. Goodwill has its price, and you just got your chance to price some out.
Put that guy in your rearview as quickly as possible; no other course of action will be as inexpensive or rewarding. Standing on principle, whether you're right or wrong, is only going to prolong the agony and escalate the ultimate cost.
Management reserves the right to refuse service. If that sign isn't behind your cash register yet, it needs to be fairly soon.
Buy the gun. Whatever it costs, it's cheap at twice the price. Refuse to do any further business with him afterward.
Dealing with fools is an occupational hazard for everyone who is forced to deal with the general public. Goodwill has its price, and you just got your chance to price some out.
Put that guy in your rearview as quickly as possible; no other course of action will be as inexpensive or rewarding. Standing on principle, whether you're right or wrong, is only going to prolong the agony and escalate the ultimate cost.
Management reserves the right to refuse service. If that sign isn't behind your cash register yet, it needs to be fairly soon.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Like has been said some soot is normal. Annealing helps if the necks are work hardened but its still going to happen a little. What really matters is where the bullets are hitting.
I have enough rifles built by good smiths and they all have this problem, guess I better start calling to see if they will fix it for me....like Greg said, dealing with the intellectually challenged is part of dealing with the public. Maybe you could show him a cartridge from one of your rifles.
Like has been said some soot is normal. Annealing helps if the necks are work hardened but its still going to happen a little. What really matters is where the bullets are hitting.
I have enough rifles built by good smiths and they all have this problem, guess I better start calling to see if they will fix it for me....like Greg said, dealing with the intellectually challenged is part of dealing with the public. Maybe you could show him a cartridge from one of your rifles.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
If the rifle is accurate....who the hell cares about the soot on the neck?
Dudes like this are why I stay away from the range on Saturday and Sunday.
If the rifle is accurate....who the hell cares about the soot on the neck?
Dudes like this are why I stay away from the range on Saturday and Sunday.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I have a shilen barreled 243 that does the same thing and it shoots great. I neck turn but it does it whether I turn or not. I quetioned it a little at first but I'm getting no pressure signs and its not effecting accuracy or function. So who cares. I do have tight necks and that maybe what is causing it but the rifle shots so dam well I ain't going to call Shilen to complain.
I would do what "Greg Langelius" said and buy the rifle if I could just to get him off your back because he could start bad mouthing you.
I have a shilen barreled 243 that does the same thing and it shoots great. I neck turn but it does it whether I turn or not. I quetioned it a little at first but I'm getting no pressure signs and its not effecting accuracy or function. So who cares. I do have tight necks and that maybe what is causing it but the rifle shots so dam well I ain't going to call Shilen to complain.
I would do what "Greg Langelius" said and buy the rifle if I could just to get him off your back because he could start bad mouthing you.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: juliomorris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a shilen barreled 243 that does the same thing and it shoots great. I neck turn but it does it whether I turn or not. I quetioned it a little at first but I'm getting no pressure signs and its not effecting accuracy or function. So who cares. I do have tight necks and that maybe what is causing it but the rifle shots so dam well I ain't going to call Shilen to complain.
I would do what "Greg Langelius" said and buy the rifle if I could just to get him off your back because he could start bad mouthing you. </div></div>
Im not in the least bit worried about anyone badmouthing me. Most of my customers are all competition shooter that meet once a week in the same place, they all kick each others asses every week and if anyone badmouths me they're all there to back up my ability, they all love what I do and they all know whether Im capable or not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: juliomorris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a shilen barreled 243 that does the same thing and it shoots great. I neck turn but it does it whether I turn or not. I quetioned it a little at first but I'm getting no pressure signs and its not effecting accuracy or function. So who cares. I do have tight necks and that maybe what is causing it but the rifle shots so dam well I ain't going to call Shilen to complain.
I would do what "Greg Langelius" said and buy the rifle if I could just to get him off your back because he could start bad mouthing you. </div></div>
Im not in the least bit worried about anyone badmouthing me. Most of my customers are all competition shooter that meet once a week in the same place, they all kick each others asses every week and if anyone badmouths me they're all there to back up my ability, they all love what I do and they all know whether Im capable or not.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
First off what kind of chamber; match, palma etc.. Then what kind of ammo is it handloads factory ammo,
I have a match chamber .308 and I started to get dark black around the neck but it was only with RP brass but not the nosler brass I used. I never care because I just throw it in the tumbler. The RP brass shoots the best in that chamber. GO figure
First off what kind of chamber; match, palma etc.. Then what kind of ammo is it handloads factory ammo,
I have a match chamber .308 and I started to get dark black around the neck but it was only with RP brass but not the nosler brass I used. I never care because I just throw it in the tumbler. The RP brass shoots the best in that chamber. GO figure
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I ran a small HVAC business so I know how cutomers can be when they start complaining and some times its just better to take it in the shorts.If this was and AR i would be looking at the bolt a the cycle time I had a 24" AR doing the same thing and I had to replace the buffer with a heavier one. But on a bolt gun with know other signs of trouble i wouldn't worry if I was him. Customers is one reason I no longer run the business. They want you to fix it but they do not want to pay.
I ran a small HVAC business so I know how cutomers can be when they start complaining and some times its just better to take it in the shorts.If this was and AR i would be looking at the bolt a the cycle time I had a 24" AR doing the same thing and I had to replace the buffer with a heavier one. But on a bolt gun with know other signs of trouble i wouldn't worry if I was him. Customers is one reason I no longer run the business. They want you to fix it but they do not want to pay.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off what kind of chamber; match, palma etc.. Then what kind of ammo is it handloads factory ammo,
I have a match chamber .308 and I started to get dark black around the neck but it was only with RP brass but not the nosler brass I used. I never care because I just throw it in the tumbler. The RP brass shoots the best in that chamber. GO figure </div></div>
Its loaded Lapua, standard chamber.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off what kind of chamber; match, palma etc.. Then what kind of ammo is it handloads factory ammo,
I have a match chamber .308 and I started to get dark black around the neck but it was only with RP brass but not the nosler brass I used. I never care because I just throw it in the tumbler. The RP brass shoots the best in that chamber. GO figure </div></div>
Its loaded Lapua, standard chamber.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He needs to anneal the necks, it will help. You said his powder charge is dangerously high already in some cases.
Not all of the black soot will disappear from the neck, but annealed necks will help mitigate it. </div></div>
+1. I had the same issue and annealing fixed it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He needs to anneal the necks, it will help. You said his powder charge is dangerously high already in some cases.
Not all of the black soot will disappear from the neck, but annealed necks will help mitigate it. </div></div>
+1. I had the same issue and annealing fixed it.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer"
Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer"
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Maybe just shut up and shoot it. I have a 5 gal bucket of once fired brass out in the garage from everything from 223 to 50bmg and soot on them is prevalent on at least 90% of the cases. Stop bumping the shoulder and see if that helps any.
Maybe just shut up and shoot it. I have a 5 gal bucket of once fired brass out in the garage from everything from 223 to 50bmg and soot on them is prevalent on at least 90% of the cases. Stop bumping the shoulder and see if that helps any.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
+1
Stop bumping the shoulder. Neck size only enough tension for seating and good accuracy. If you have a recipe that is giving you sub MOA performance and annealing and other things does not help the residue on the shoulder you can either shoot it or sell it. I vote for shoot it. Brass cleaning is easy.
+1
Stop bumping the shoulder. Neck size only enough tension for seating and good accuracy. If you have a recipe that is giving you sub MOA performance and annealing and other things does not help the residue on the shoulder you can either shoot it or sell it. I vote for shoot it. Brass cleaning is easy.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I have learned more things about a myriad of topics in this thread that anyone can imagine.
Thanks!
P.S. If you use the original Go-Jo hand cleaner and save the towel you wipe/dry your hands off with and use it to wipe the necks off with it will save your Krazy Kloth...
I have learned more things about a myriad of topics in this thread that anyone can imagine.
Thanks!
P.S. If you use the original Go-Jo hand cleaner and save the towel you wipe/dry your hands off with and use it to wipe the necks off with it will save your Krazy Kloth...
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted. Yes it is I the customer in question aka "Shithead". Mikki obviously did not have all the information needed to ask this question but I cannot blame him really as he knows very little about reloading and even less about target rifle shooting.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer" </div></div>
can you please post some pictures of your fired brass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted. Yes it is I the customer in question aka "Shithead". Mikki obviously did not have all the information needed to ask this question but I cannot blame him really as he knows very little about reloading and even less about target rifle shooting.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer" </div></div>
can you please post some pictures of your fired brass.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Got your PM about this guy slammin' you in the 'hood. I think it sucks, the guy should get on with his life. I really think it's time you got some legal advice concerning slander. Meanwhile, did you make him a reasonable offer as I suggested?
Got your PM about this guy slammin' you in the 'hood. I think it sucks, the guy should get on with his life. I really think it's time you got some legal advice concerning slander. Meanwhile, did you make him a reasonable offer as I suggested?
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I dont think this rifle is for sale given its performance after the rebarrel. I dont think its a case for the courts either. Im just getting my full of it from this case blackening scenario and I havent been able to solve for my client. Im sure trial and error will solve it as Im pretty sure my end was done as well as it could have been done. Ive never had a situation where accuracy or performance was an issue EVER and Im just looking forward to seeing an end to this issue, small as it might be.
I dont think this rifle is for sale given its performance after the rebarrel. I dont think its a case for the courts either. Im just getting my full of it from this case blackening scenario and I havent been able to solve for my client. Im sure trial and error will solve it as Im pretty sure my end was done as well as it could have been done. Ive never had a situation where accuracy or performance was an issue EVER and Im just looking forward to seeing an end to this issue, small as it might be.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted. Yes it is I the customer in question aka "Shithead". Mikki obviously did not have all the information needed to ask this question but I cannot blame him really as he knows very little about reloading and even less about target rifle shooting.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer" </div></div>
I'd suggest you take the critical measurements of your chamber. If they're to spec. then it's your problem, if not then it's mikki's problem. If it shoots I don't see it as a problem at all. Post some pictures of the brass, unless they are as black as satans soul you are probably seeking a solution to a problem that isn't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted. Yes it is I the customer in question aka "Shithead". Mikki obviously did not have all the information needed to ask this question but I cannot blame him really as he knows very little about reloading and even less about target rifle shooting.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer" </div></div>
I'd suggest you take the critical measurements of your chamber. If they're to spec. then it's your problem, if not then it's mikki's problem. If it shoots I don't see it as a problem at all. Post some pictures of the brass, unless they are as black as satans soul you are probably seeking a solution to a problem that isn't.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I do not think it is anything that Mikki did wrong and I have never said that. Me and Mikki are working together to try and solve this problem. I do not understand where this blow back is coming from, it does not happen on the first firing of new brass which is full length sized using a standard 308 full length sizing die then expanded on an expander mandrel, neck turned and sized back down with a redding 335 type S neck bushing die. On every other firing the powder residue travels down 3/4 of the shoulder of the fired cases. Accuracy is not an issue the gun is shooting very well. I did not have this issue on the original factory barrel, by the way the rifle is a Savage model 12 F/TR.
Annealing the brass did rectify the problem but this is a timely process and I would prefer to prevent this from happening rather than having to deal with the problem of annealing all my new once fired brass..
V-hunter
I do not think it is anything that Mikki did wrong and I have never said that. Me and Mikki are working together to try and solve this problem. I do not understand where this blow back is coming from, it does not happen on the first firing of new brass which is full length sized using a standard 308 full length sizing die then expanded on an expander mandrel, neck turned and sized back down with a redding 335 type S neck bushing die. On every other firing the powder residue travels down 3/4 of the shoulder of the fired cases. Accuracy is not an issue the gun is shooting very well. I did not have this issue on the original factory barrel, by the way the rifle is a Savage model 12 F/TR.
Annealing the brass did rectify the problem but this is a timely process and I would prefer to prevent this from happening rather than having to deal with the problem of annealing all my new once fired brass..
V-hunter
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not think it is anything that Mikki did wrong and I have never said that. Me and Mikki are working together to try and solve this problem. I do not understand where this blow back is coming from, it does not happen on the first firing of new brass which is full length sized using a standard 308 full length sizing die then expanded on an expander mandrel, neck turned and sized back down with a redding 335 type S neck bushing die. On every other firing the powder residue travels down 3/4 of the shoulder of the fired cases. Accuracy is not an issue the gun is shooting very well. I did not have this issue on the original factory barrel, by the way the rifle is a Savage model 12 F/TR.
Annealing the brass did rectify the problem but this is a timely process and I would prefer to prevent this from happening rather than having to deal with the problem of annealing all my new once fired brass..
V-hunter </div></div>
If it does not happen on the first firing I would blame the problem on the idiot behing the reloading press. It sounds like it would be best for you to sell this fine rifle to someone who knows how to operate it and everything to do involved in shooting it. You might be better suited buying a pellet rifle and maybe then you wont have a problem with soot on the brass you fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not think it is anything that Mikki did wrong and I have never said that. Me and Mikki are working together to try and solve this problem. I do not understand where this blow back is coming from, it does not happen on the first firing of new brass which is full length sized using a standard 308 full length sizing die then expanded on an expander mandrel, neck turned and sized back down with a redding 335 type S neck bushing die. On every other firing the powder residue travels down 3/4 of the shoulder of the fired cases. Accuracy is not an issue the gun is shooting very well. I did not have this issue on the original factory barrel, by the way the rifle is a Savage model 12 F/TR.
Annealing the brass did rectify the problem but this is a timely process and I would prefer to prevent this from happening rather than having to deal with the problem of annealing all my new once fired brass..
V-hunter </div></div>
If it does not happen on the first firing I would blame the problem on the idiot behing the reloading press. It sounds like it would be best for you to sell this fine rifle to someone who knows how to operate it and everything to do involved in shooting it. You might be better suited buying a pellet rifle and maybe then you wont have a problem with soot on the brass you fire.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not think it is anything that Mikki did wrong and I have never said that. Me and Mikki are working together to try and solve this problem. I do not understand where this blow back is coming from, it does not happen on the first firing of new brass which is full length sized using a standard 308 full length sizing die then expanded on an expander mandrel, neck turned and sized back down with a redding 335 type S neck bushing die. On every other firing the powder residue travels down 3/4 of the shoulder of the fired cases. Accuracy is not an issue the gun is shooting very well. I did not have this issue on the original factory barrel, by the way the rifle is a Savage model 12 F/TR.
Annealing the brass did rectify the problem but this is a timely process and I would prefer to prevent this from happening rather than having to deal with the problem of annealing all my new once fired brass..
V-hunter </div></div>
again, pictures of your fired cases with the <span style="font-style: italic">issue</span> please.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do not think it is anything that Mikki did wrong and I have never said that. Me and Mikki are working together to try and solve this problem. I do not understand where this blow back is coming from, it does not happen on the first firing of new brass which is full length sized using a standard 308 full length sizing die then expanded on an expander mandrel, neck turned and sized back down with a redding 335 type S neck bushing die. On every other firing the powder residue travels down 3/4 of the shoulder of the fired cases. Accuracy is not an issue the gun is shooting very well. I did not have this issue on the original factory barrel, by the way the rifle is a Savage model 12 F/TR.
Annealing the brass did rectify the problem but this is a timely process and I would prefer to prevent this from happening rather than having to deal with the problem of annealing all my new once fired brass..
V-hunter </div></div>
again, pictures of your fired cases with the <span style="font-style: italic">issue</span> please.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted. Yes it is I the customer in question aka "Shithead". Mikki obviously did not have all the information needed to ask this question but I cannot blame him really as he knows very little about reloading and even less about target rifle shooting.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and <span style="font-weight: bold">bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou</span>, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer" </div></div>
I believe this is your problem, Lapua makes the best brass you can buy, or I should say one of, What I would try is not to bump the shoulder and see if this resolves your issue.
Let us know... Man this forum is starting to sound like the AR15 (ARFCOM) forum.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: V-hunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys,
When I saw this post I just had to reply as I felt it was a missed oppertunity to actually solve the problem that I am having with this new barrel that Mikki fitted. Yes it is I the customer in question aka "Shithead". Mikki obviously did not have all the information needed to ask this question but I cannot blame him really as he knows very little about reloading and even less about target rifle shooting.
The problem I have is with powder residue on the "shoulder" of the case, not the necks of the case of which I do understand is normal. Once fired I resized the cases and <span style="font-weight: bold">bumped the shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thou</span>, the cases (Lapua) ARE neck turned (clean up)and the rounds are not under loaded 47g of N140. I would really appreciate any advice on solving this problem.
Thanks alot
"the customer" </div></div>
I believe this is your problem, Lapua makes the best brass you can buy, or I should say one of, What I would try is not to bump the shoulder and see if this resolves your issue.
Let us know... Man this forum is starting to sound like the AR15 (ARFCOM) forum.....
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Dam, this is a rough cowd. The guy is just asking what might cause this. I think it's a fair question. I don't see where he is is blaming anyone.
Dam, this is a rough cowd. The guy is just asking what might cause this. I think it's a fair question. I don't see where he is is blaming anyone.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dam, this is a rough cowd. The guy is just asking what might cause this. I think it's a fair question. I don't see where he is is blaming anyone. </div></div>
i agree im just glad to see they are both working on it together.
but it is an odd problem
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dam, this is a rough cowd. The guy is just asking what might cause this. I think it's a fair question. I don't see where he is is blaming anyone. </div></div>
i agree im just glad to see they are both working on it together.
but it is an odd problem
Re: Case blackening at the neck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dam, this is a rough cowd. The guy is just asking what might cause this. I think it's a fair question. I don't see where he is is blaming anyone. </div></div>
When you are wasting your gunsmith's time because you are a jackass and have poor reloading technique kinda takes fair question out of anything. It sounds like Mikki is going above and beyond what he needs to. I would also bet Mikki is more of a general gunsmith and if he is like the general smith here has a shit ton of work behind the counter that needs to be done. If the rifle goes boom, chamber is right, and if accurate as is said I would think Mikki's job is done and the customer needs to seek reloading advice.
As said a bunch of times in this thread so far STOP BUMPING THE SHOULDER....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dam, this is a rough cowd. The guy is just asking what might cause this. I think it's a fair question. I don't see where he is is blaming anyone. </div></div>
When you are wasting your gunsmith's time because you are a jackass and have poor reloading technique kinda takes fair question out of anything. It sounds like Mikki is going above and beyond what he needs to. I would also bet Mikki is more of a general gunsmith and if he is like the general smith here has a shit ton of work behind the counter that needs to be done. If the rifle goes boom, chamber is right, and if accurate as is said I would think Mikki's job is done and the customer needs to seek reloading advice.
As said a bunch of times in this thread so far STOP BUMPING THE SHOULDER....
Re: Case blackening at the neck
This man is serious about his sport, he puts probably more into his game than anybody Ive ever met before and its very important for me that he's happy when he leaves. It does get frustrating at times when theres an issue that just doesnt want to get sorted and subsequently who else can the client talk to except his Smith. Im not one for burrying my head in the sand and ignoring the customer's problem, yes its a pain when you keep hearing about a situation that you cant do little to solve but its always great at the same to eventually solve it, however long it takes. As regards to this man not knowing what he's doing would be a mega understatement, infact he's actually one of the people that brings out the best in my work and always atracts an audience when he's at the range. I usually get a shit load of calls after he spends a day at the range.
This man is serious about his sport, he puts probably more into his game than anybody Ive ever met before and its very important for me that he's happy when he leaves. It does get frustrating at times when theres an issue that just doesnt want to get sorted and subsequently who else can the client talk to except his Smith. Im not one for burrying my head in the sand and ignoring the customer's problem, yes its a pain when you keep hearing about a situation that you cant do little to solve but its always great at the same to eventually solve it, however long it takes. As regards to this man not knowing what he's doing would be a mega understatement, infact he's actually one of the people that brings out the best in my work and always atracts an audience when he's at the range. I usually get a shit load of calls after he spends a day at the range.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
You cannot control the ammo being fed to this rifle so how can you remedy the problem. Point him toward the factory ammo isle is the best solution.
You cannot control the ammo being fed to this rifle so how can you remedy the problem. Point him toward the factory ammo isle is the best solution.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
dang...sure glad i did not have this problem...gents this is what this section is good for...trying to help out a fellow member...give the advice and move on...no need to badmouth anyone....
dang...sure glad i did not have this problem...gents this is what this section is good for...trying to help out a fellow member...give the advice and move on...no need to badmouth anyone....
Re: Case blackening at the neck
Heres a few pictures that V hunter has asked me to post. You clearly see the residue on the cases from both photos. He's tried just about everything including not bumping them back but he has to bump them back at least 1 thou otherwise his brass is tight on bolt closure. I chambered it at bottom tolerance and Im wondering if I went another thou or so could this possibly solve our issue here. Its not the end of the world but I would like to get this one sorted if even for future reference. As far as V hunter, well I dont think theres a lot more he can do from his. Take a look and see what you guys make of it and hopefully someone here has solved this before.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
I have no clue if cutting the chamber another thousandth or two would help. I would not do it personally, but I am not in your class. I am strictly an amateur. If the rifle were shooting well I would leave it as is. As an experiment I would take a used barrel in that caliber and set it back and chamber it as this rifle is and see if the condition can be duplicated. To take a rifle that is performing really well and risk degrading it for this small problem does not seem to be worth it. Perhaps 300sniper or WmRoscoe will comment.
I have no clue if cutting the chamber another thousandth or two would help. I would not do it personally, but I am not in your class. I am strictly an amateur. If the rifle were shooting well I would leave it as is. As an experiment I would take a used barrel in that caliber and set it back and chamber it as this rifle is and see if the condition can be duplicated. To take a rifle that is performing really well and risk degrading it for this small problem does not seem to be worth it. Perhaps 300sniper or WmRoscoe will comment.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
The following is an email that Vhunter asked me to post along with those photos as he wasnt sure how to post pic.
Hey Guys
Attached are some photos of some fired cases with the powder residue clearly visible on the shoulders. As can be seen the middle one is not quite as bad even though they were all prepped the same way. I have tried numerous combinations of dies and bushings to try to get rid of it.. even neck sized, un-bumped, tight to chamber cases show signs of powder residue on the shoulders.
This chamber is cut to minimum specifications and therefore new brass has only 2 thou headspace clearance in it which I think is great as new brass shoots very well from this new barrel. But once fired it wont rechamber smoothly without bumping the shoulder back at least 1 thou. Thats where all the bumping the shoulder talk is coming from.
I have no problem cleaning the cases, just pop them in the tumbler for a few hours and your done. I have no problem either with the performance of this new barrel, just for peace of mind Id like to see this powder on the shoulders gone.
The following is an email that Vhunter asked me to post along with those photos as he wasnt sure how to post pic.
Hey Guys
Attached are some photos of some fired cases with the powder residue clearly visible on the shoulders. As can be seen the middle one is not quite as bad even though they were all prepped the same way. I have tried numerous combinations of dies and bushings to try to get rid of it.. even neck sized, un-bumped, tight to chamber cases show signs of powder residue on the shoulders.
This chamber is cut to minimum specifications and therefore new brass has only 2 thou headspace clearance in it which I think is great as new brass shoots very well from this new barrel. But once fired it wont rechamber smoothly without bumping the shoulder back at least 1 thou. Thats where all the bumping the shoulder talk is coming from.
I have no problem cleaning the cases, just pop them in the tumbler for a few hours and your done. I have no problem either with the performance of this new barrel, just for peace of mind Id like to see this powder on the shoulders gone.
Re: Case blackening at the neck
When he resizes what is the length of the casing? After he bumps it what is the length of the case? When he fires the round what is the length of the spent casing?
When he resizes what is the length of the casing? After he bumps it what is the length of the case? When he fires the round what is the length of the spent casing?
Re: Case blackening at the neck
mikki...that isn't blackening in my book. I am embarrassed that you had to post such a minimal staining photo. Do what Greg said...buy the rifle back and look to the future. Life is too short for such minimal s... JMHO
mikki...that isn't blackening in my book. I am embarrassed that you had to post such a minimal staining photo. Do what Greg said...buy the rifle back and look to the future. Life is too short for such minimal s... JMHO
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