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CFE 223 with super low veleocities?

GetReal

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 15, 2020
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I'm running CFE 223 out of a 14.5" P&W bbl getting 2450 fps velocities...barely. Using 69 SMKs and 25.0 gr CFE 223. I should be north of 2,800 fps per relaoding manuals

And I'm getting crappy groups 1.25" at 100 yd.

Anyone else? What the Hades?
 
Have you loaded other bullet / powder combos to have a good benchmark for how precise your reloading process is?
 
Have you loaded other bullet / powder combos to have a good benchmark for how precise your reloading process is?

Yes, its dead on (within reason, to the tenth of a grain, etc) .... powder charge, chrony, everything.
 
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Yes, its dead on (within reason, to the tenth of a grain, etc) .... powder charge, chrony, everything.
Is it though…

When you chamber a load, does the bullet stay in the case?
Are you using a progressive loading process?
What’s your QC for powder charge?
 
1650311458442.png

2450fps looks in the ballpark according to QL. The only way this load gets to 2800fps is with a 24" bbl
 
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2450fps looks in the ballpark according to QL. The only way this load gets to 2800fps is with a 24" bbl

Yeah....bbl length can make a diff....wan't sure how much. Manaul shows a 24" bbl getting 3029 fps with 24" bbl and 25.8 CFE.

Thanx for an on-point answer rather than trying to tell me I don;t know what I'm doing.
 
Thanx for an on-point answer rather than trying to tell me I don;t know what I'm doing.

I appreciate pointed answers directly to the heart of the question as well. That said being one who occasionally responds to this type of question from others, we simply don't know who is asking this or any other questions. There is no way to know the experience level of the person asking questions. There is simply no way to know if you started reloading last month or 25 years ago...
 
I appreciate pointed answers directly to the heart of the question as well. That said being one who occasionally responds to this type of question from others, we simply don't know who is asking this or any other questions. There is no way to know the experience level of the person asking questions. There is simply no way to know if you started reloading last month or 25 years ago...


I can see that. My assumption is most ppl are here to help. As much as some ppl here don't know what they are doing....SOME ppl here / on the internet are insulting and condescending prigs who assume everyone but them is an idiot. LOL

Personally, I assume ppl know what they are doing / talking about....until they prove to me they don't. I don't reply tho their question with a knowledge / intelligence questionnaire.

Again, thanx. And I got the info I needed from you, so I won't bother anyone anymore on this question. :)
 
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Yes, its dead on (within reason, to the tenth of a grain, etc) .... powder charge, chrony, everything.
I assumed if you had a dead on reloading process you'd have considered barrel length and its impact on velocity :ROFLMAO:

Sorry I couldn't help it. I'm one of those that's newer to reloading so I typically check my process first so I'm not chasing my tail.

Best of luck on finding a workable load!
 
Read the rest of my post and lighten up a bit thx


Don't assume when you read my posts. Do like others here and provide actual on topic helpful info. Or scroll past. Thanx.

Thus far, you've offerred nothing remotely helpful. Some idle chatter.... and more than a touch of condescension. Just....have a nice day. OK?
 
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CFE 223 is on the slower side for 223. If you want velocity from such a short barrel I'd start with some faster powders(xbr, h4895, or something with an even faster burn rate).
 
Don't assume when you read my posts. Do like others here and provide actual on topic helpful info. Or scroll past. Thanx.

Thus far, you've offerred nothing remotely helpful. Some idle chatter.... and more than a touch of condescension. Just....have a nice day. OK?
I started by asking a question so not sure how I'm the one making an assumption. I guess I didn't think to ask the even more basic question of if you had considered barrel length and its impact on velocity. Next time I won't assume the basics are covered.

As @Dogtown said, NO you have a nice day!! :ROFLMAO:
 
It’s almost like the rest of the Hide is turning into the Bear Pit, where people go from 0-100 in one or two posts like a bunch of sloppy drunks in a bar at closing time.
I wouldn't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about
 
All powder will vary between lots. I got a lot of h4350 that took 2grns extra (6.5 creed) to bring velocity back. Next lot I test loaded at the old charge and it was spot on again.

Do not ignore pressure signs to get a certain velocity though.
 
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Switch to a 52bthp or vmax and approx 26 grains if you want more velocity imho. I didn’t have luck with cfe and 69s either.

edit: hodgdon data, win brass, notice the seating depth as well:


HodgdonCFE 223Buy now 0.224"2.235"23.52,78843,800 PSI25.83,02954,600 PSI

JMHO but you still have room to grow, however at the end of the day it's still a 14.5" barrel
 
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Boy everyone is on edge these days.....how about some humor to lighten things up?

View attachment 7852380

How much "crunch" should I hear when I seat bullets? I'm seating bullets with a framing hammer like you would when you start a nail. Still working on my COAL consistency but I think I'll get it. I'm using SMKs because I heard they are very insensitive to jump
 
How much "crunch" should I hear when I seat bullets? I'm seating bullets with a framing hammer like you would when you start a nail. Still working on my COAL consistency but I think I'll get it. I'm using SMKs because I heard they are very insensitive to jump
You want enough powder to prevent setback but not so much that it takes more than 3 whacks with a 21oz framing hammer to seat the bullet.
 
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How much "crunch" should I hear when I seat bullets? I'm seating bullets with a framing hammer like you would when you start a nail. Still working on my COAL consistency but I think I'll get it. I'm using SMKs because I heard they are very insensitive to jump
Surprisingly, you can crunch a bunch. You'll know if you went too far when the primer pushes out or the bullet will not seat to your given COAL.

I am testing IMR 4064 (bunch of surplus) with 77gr SMK and cannot get to max load data because it will not stay to COAL. Expands back out to 2.265 everytime with 24.5gr, max is 25.0.

It's almost impossible to "over" compress a load without knowing it. In a bolt gun, you can run over max mag length COAL, which is a saving grace sometimes with slower powders.

Stay below max load data and watch for pressure signs like chevy-man posted. Lot variations do occur too.
 
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I started by asking a question so not sure how I'm the one making an assumption. I guess I didn't think to ask the even more basic question of if you had considered barrel length and its impact on velocity. Next time I won't assume the basics are covered.

As @Dogtown said, NO you have a nice day!! :ROFLMAO:


STILL YET (even after 6 tries) you've not posted anything helpful, on topic, or that addreseses the question I asked. Great job. That's not easy to do. Just by dumb luck you'd think you'd stumble into saying SOMETHING helpful. :) Its almost like yer trying to be NOT helpful. :) I guess that easier than being actually helpful. Its certainly more common. Instead you keep posting about how your posts are awesome. It all reminds me of bArfcom. I'm guessing yer a professional used car salesman....right??!?!? :) Or gov't employee. ;)

At least other ppl have been funny.
 
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At least other ppl have been funny.

The problem is you’re acting like a baby back whiny little faggot bitch after being asked your skill level. Who may I add, dun literally stated within the first 3 post of a thread about reloading that your process is “dead on” and didn’t even consider that data out of a book is typically with a 24 inch barrel. That question was fair, to better get a starting point to help assess a typical question, more advanced reloaders might have more advanced problems.

It’s like you’re too stupid to insult. Even more so, you were a newb like a month ago. Had you not had a estrogen surge the moment your skill level was questioned the thread would have been dead, and you would’ve had your answer.

*have a nice day. Thx.
 

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The problem is you’re acting like a baby back whiny little faggot bitch after being asked your skill level. Who may I add, dun literally stated within the first 3 post of a thread about reloading that your process is “dead on” and didn’t even consider that data out of a book is typically with a 24 inch barrel. That question was fair, to better get a starting point to help assess a typical question, more advanced reloaders might have more advanced problems.

It’s like you’re too stupid to insult. Even more so, you were a newb like a month ago. Had you not had a estrogen surge the moment your skill level was questioned the thread would have been dead, and you would’ve had your answer.

*have a nice day. Thx.


incorrect. You'll notice in the OP I mentioned bbl length. From the very start. I obviously considered it. For any that bothered / are cable of reading words.

The question asked was about my reloading process / skills" .... NOT about bbl length. My reloading PROCESS certainly would not explain the est. 350 fps loss it seemed was happenning. Oddly, I haven't yet memorized every single possible combination of powder, powder charge, bbl length, and resulting velocity that exists. MY bad. So I'm thankful for the fella that ran a QL to give me that info. THAT was helpful, as I noted above.

THe question about my relaoding skills was like asking about the paint color of a car that wasn't going as fast as you'd think a 350 cu.in engine should go.

I do hafta say.... you are exquisite with profanity and personal insults. A rare talent. :)
 
incorrect. You'll notice in the OP I mentioned bbl length. From the very start. I obviously considered it. For any that bothered / are cable of reading words.

The questions he asked was about my "reloading process" .... NOT about bbl length. My relaoding PROCESS certainly would not explain the est. 350 fps loss it seemed was happenning. Oddly, I haven't yet memorized every single possible combination of powder, powder charge, bbl length, and resulting velocity that exists. MY bad. So I'm thankful for the fella that ran a QL to give me that info. THAT was helpful, as I noted above.

His question about my relaoding process was like asking about the paint color of a car that wasn't going as fast as you'd think a 350 cu.in engine should go.

I do hafta say.... you are excuisite with profanity and personal insults. A rare talent. :)
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will say this.... You should have known about the barrel length. Every reloading manual I have states which rifle was used and I think most do.

That said, there are several factors that can alter velocity based solely upon powder selection, so I don't think it hurts to double check with other shooters.
 
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will say this.... You should have known about the barrel length. Every reloading manual I have states which rifle was used and I think most do.

That said, there are so I don't think it hurts to double check with other shooters.
I mentioned bbl length FROM THE VERY BEGINNING....in the OP. Up front. At the start. Obviously....I did / DO know about that. So I was asking about those (to quote you) "several factors that can alter velocity based solely upon powder selection."

Got anything on those several factors (other than bbl length) ? Cuz that's EXACTLY what I was asking in the OP. Exactly.
 
A case study in ppl reading to argue rather than to understand what I'm asking :) Shame on me that I'm (still) surprised at this. :)
 
I mentioned bbl length FROM THE VERY BEGINNING....in the OP. Up front. At the start. Obviosuly....I did / DO know about that. So I was asking about those (to quote you) "several factors that can alter velocity based solely upon powder selection."

Got anything on that ? Cuz that's EXACTLY what I was asking in the OP. Exactly.
Per Hodgdon's load data, it's on a 24" barrel... Why would you think 14.5" would catch that? Not being a dick, just asking.
 
Per Hodgdon's load data, it's on a 24" barrel... Why would you think 14.5" would catch that? Not being a dick, just asking.

I did NOT think it would "catch that." NEVER said that. (Where U getting that from?) And not suprised at the decrease. Surprised at the *AMOUNT* of decrease. Some 350 fps apparently, by my calcs.. (as I have repeatedly explained.) I've gotten those 69 SMK's going almost 2800 fps outta a 16" bbl. 1.5" causes a 350 FPS loss? Per Hogdon, From a 24" bbl, 69 smk's sposed to be going over 3,000 fps. (I mentioned that early in the thread too.) Not to mention I've often found Hodgdons velocity data to be FAR from real world. Its hardly gospel truth.

Yes, 2,450 from 14.5" surprised me. And the fella that ran the QL gave me really helpful info. Not being a dick, just explaining the reason for my inquiry.

And I appreciate your response here, that attempts to understand what I'm asking. Instead of calling me a "whiny little faggot bitch" or some other 7th grade insult. :)

Sadly, all I **REALLY*** needed was for someone to say "In my 14.5 / 16" bbl, I get x,xxx fps." Instead, I get "whiny little faggot bitch" and "estrogen surge." Makes me feel like an adult among (some) children.
 
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Not suprised at the decrease. Surprised at the *AMOUNT* of decrease. Some 350 fps apparently, by my calcs.. (as I have repeatedly explained.) I've gotten those 69 SMK's going almost 2800 fps outta a 16" bbl. 1.5" causes a 350 FPS loss? Per Hogdon, From a 24" bbl, 69 smk's sposed to be going over 3,000 fps. (I mentioned that early in the thread too.) Not to mention I've often found Hodgdons velocity data to be FAR from real world. Its hardly gospel truth.

Yes, 2,450 from 14.5" surprised me. And the fella that ran the QL gave me really helpful info. Not being a dick, just explaining the reason for my inquiry.

And I appreciate your response here, that attempts to undersatand what I'm asking. Instead of calling me a "whiny little faggot bitch" or some other 7th grade insult. :)

Sadly, all I **REALLY*** needed is someone to say "In my 14.5 / 16" bbl, I get x,xxx fps." Instead, I get "whiny little faggot bitch." Makes me feel like an adult among (some) children.
There are a few different things you need to look at then. First of all, barrel to barrel... Speeds will be different, even same length, even barrel profile. Then there's barrel "break in" (if needed). What barrel are you using? Second, primer/powder combos will give you different results. May I ask what primers you're running?

Lastly, comes to COAL. I run handloads and factory. Some factory loads are past COAL of 2.260. Some are shorter. This is just how I run handloads, but I don't give a shit about max fps or grouping until I've found an ES that's "acceptable". Once I've reached that, it's a matter of COAL. In an AR, you're very limited by the mag. Try a different bullet selection and it may surprise you.

You can go into bolt lockup and case capacity etc, but I've found it's the first 3 that have the most effect.

Also, I get 2450 out of a 13.7" if that helps, with 77gr SMK.
 
There are a few different things you need to look at then. First of all, barrel to barrel... Speeds will be different, even same length, even barrel profile. Then there's barrel "break in" (if needed). What barrel are you using? Second, primer/powder combos will give you different results. May I ask what primers you're running?

Lastly, comes to COAL. I run handloads and factory. Some factory loads are past COAL of 2.260. Some are shorter. This is just how I run handloads, but I don't give a shit about max fps or grouping until I've found an ES that's "acceptable". Once I've reached that, it's a matter of COAL. In an AR, you're very limited by the mag. Try a different bullet selection and it may surprise you.

You can go into bolt lockup and case capacity etc, but I've found it's the first 3 that have the most effect.

Also, I get 2450 out of a 13.7" if that helps, with 77gr SMK.

Aero factory bbl. More than 500 rounds on it. (Thought about replacing it witha JP, but....)

Primers - using CCI SR and CCI 41's. Powder = CFE 223. Got some AR-Comp that workd really well in my 224 V bolt gun, thinkng about trying that.

COAL = 2.260 +/- 5 thou. Its on a 550C but I've gotten the powder measure to vary no more than 0.1 gr. Velocities were all within 20 fps SD's.

I tried 77 SMK's and 70 Bergers. 69 SMK's were best of that bunch.

Thanx for your velocity outtta your 13.7. From your info and the QL data above, that settles it for me. UNLESS somebody has some REALLY clever, obtuse and creative insult I've not heard before

Then I might jump back in.
 
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Aero factory bbl. More than 500 rounds on it. (Thought about replacing it witha JP, but....)

Primers - using CCI SR and CCI 41's. Powder = CFE 223. Got some AR-Comp that workd really well in my 224 V bolt gun, thinkng about trying that.

COAL = 2.260 +/- 5 thou. Its on a 550C but I've gotten the powder measure to vary no more than 0.1 gr. Velocities were all within 20 fps SD's.

I tgried 77 SMK's and 70 Bergers. 69 SMK's were best of that bunch.

Thanx for your velocity outtta your 13.7. From your info and the QL data above, that settles it for me. UNLESS somebody has some REALLY clever, obtuse and creative insult Ive; not head before

Then I might jump back in.
In my testing, Remington 7 1/2s will get you more fps... but not 350 fps, about 20-30. Aero barrels do just fine.

Your COAL is good, powder is, meh alright. I don't do SD. Waste of time, in my opinion, probably where your problem lies.

Either not a good primer/powder combo or you're using shitty brass. If you use Win brass, likely the culprit.

You CAN make any powder work (almost)... with the right primer and bullet selection. Hope that helps. Good luck with the "witty" remarks (though sometimes deserved), place is full of them, especially if you're slacking.
 
STILL YET (even after 6 tries) you've not posted anything helpful, on topic, or that addreseses the question I asked. Great job. That's not easy to do. Just by dumb luck you'd think you'd stumble into saying SOMETHING helpful. :) Its almost like yer trying to be NOT helpful. :) I guess that easier than being actually helpful. Its certainly more common. Instead you keep posting about how your posts are awesome. It all reminds me of bArfcom. I'm guessing yer a professional used car salesman....right??!?!? :) Or gov't employee. ;)

At least other ppl have been funny.

My first question could have lead to something helpful and relevant but you couldn’t bear to answer a basic question when you asked a question that could be answered in many ways depending on a couple background facts. After you got all bent out of shape I kinda quit on trying to be helpful. But if you want help here’s what little I have to offer.

1. CFE is somewhat temp stable but not perfect. Approximately 1.70 fps change per degree change (see attached). So wherever you end up on velocity, remember to account for that as temps swing up and down. In my AO, that would be 200 fps from summer to dead of winter. Not sure where you’re located but I’d guess northeast based on your temperament;)

2. Last weekend I got 2650 fps with TAC and 77 SMKs out of a 13.9” barrel. But the book says I should be at 2902 ;)

Oh and not sure why it matters what I do for work. Ironically I work in real estate and help people defer and eliminate capital gains tax through tax efficient investments.

@Dogtown too accurate
 

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STILL YET (even after 6 tries) you've not posted anything helpful, on topic, or that addreseses the question I asked. Great job. That's not easy to do. Just by dumb luck you'd think you'd stumble into saying SOMETHING helpful. :) Its almost like yer trying to be NOT helpful. :) I guess that easier than being actually helpful. Its certainly more common. Instead you keep posting about how your posts are awesome. It all reminds me of bArfcom. I'm guessing yer a professional used car salesman....right??!?!? :) Or gov't employee. ;)

At least other ppl have been funny.
Somebody needs to eat a Snickers.
 
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I'm running CFE 223 out of a 14.5" P&W bbl getting 2450 fps velocities...barely. Using 69 SMKs and 25.0 gr CFE 223. I should be north of 2,800 fps per relaoding manuals

And I'm getting crappy groups 1.25" at 100 yd.

Anyone else? What the Hades?

...I would suggest you establish a "baseline" by shooting some readily available M855 (green tip) and a commercial load using the 69 SMK bullet through it . The data collected will give you a better idea of what to expect from that 14.5" barrel. Reloading manuals data is typically obtained with longer test barrels, usually specified on the page for that data.
 
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...I would suggest you establish a "baseline" by shooting some readily available M855 (green tip) and a commercial load using the 69 SMK bullet through it . The data collected will give you a better idea of what to expect from that 14.5" barrel. Reloading manuals data is typically obtained with longer test barrels, usually specified on the page for that data.


I like it. Helpful. Thanx. (As noted in the OP..... I never expected over 3,000 fps like from the 24" test bbl used in the Hodgdon data. I just expected alot more than 2,450. Hell... that's almost a subsonic load ;) )
 
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Your COAL is good, powder is, meh alright. I don't do SD. Waste of time, in my opinion, probably where your problem lies.


OK..... I'm curious..... how does noting SD's cause my low velocity problem? Or 1.5" group problem? I've had those SD's group under half inch (tho with higher BC boolits)
 
<snipped out more snide crap from you. Just let it go, already>

1. CFE is somewhat temp stable but not perfect. Approximately 1.70 fps change per degree change (see attached). So wherever you end up on velocity, remember to account for that as temps swing up and down. In my AO, that would be 200 fps from summer to dead of winter. <snipped>

2. Last weekend I got 2650 fps with TAC and 77 SMKs out of a 13.9” barrel. But the book says I should be at 2902 ;)

<snipped>

Finally something relevant, helpful (well...AFTER snipping out all the oral feces.) As the old saying goes...."7th time is the charm." No need to reply. I'll call it good you finally actually posted something on topic. And say "Thank you. Really. Thank you very much."
 
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Finally something relevant, helpful (well...AFTER snipping out all the oral feces.) As the old saying goes...."7th time is the charm." No need to reply. I'll call it good you finally actually posted something on topic. And say "Thank you. Really. Thank you very much."
8798A4F2-6C16-419A-A3AB-2382E2D96F52.gif
 
Aero factory bbl. More than 500 rounds on it. (Thought about replacing it witha JP, but....)

Primers - using CCI SR and CCI 41's. Powder = CFE 223. Got some AR-Comp that workd really well in my 224 V bolt gun, thinkng about trying that.

COAL = 2.260 +/- 5 thou. Its on a 550C but I've gotten the powder measure to vary no more than 0.1 gr. Velocities were all within 20 fps SD's.

I tried 77 SMK's and 70 Bergers. 69 SMK's were best of that bunch.

Thanx for your velocity outtta your 13.7. From your info and the QL data above, that settles it for me. UNLESS somebody has some REALLY clever, obtuse and creative insult I've not heard before

Then I might jump back in.

The factory data is for 2.230" COAL, at 2.26" you will have a little less pressure. My best 69smk load was LC brass 2.24" 24gr H4895. YMMV of course.
 
OK..... I'm curious..... how does noting SD's cause my low velocity problem? Or 1.5" group problem? I've had those SD's group under half inch (tho with higher BC boolits)
I use the ES to tell if a primer/powder/bullet/brass combo will work. SD won't tell you much in that regard, in my opinion. I don't like operating under the idea of I will "probably" hit my mark.

What was your ES?