Chambering Mystery

[Jardinski]

I've been trying to help a friend who's rifle is having issues chambering some cartridges with resized brass. I've tried everything I can think of, so I'm turning to snipers hide to see if anyone else has any ideas I haven't yet tried. The cartridges are going 90% into the chamber and getting stuck. He made 100 cartridges all at the same time to the same specifications and around 50% of them would chamber and 50% of them would not.

A little details on the gun and bullets:
Tikka Action
Proof Carbon Barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor
Starline Brass
Hornady 120 Grain SST

At first I thought this was a simple case of not having enough shoulder bump, so I measured multiple pieces of fired brass compared to the ones that would not chamber. I was getting a measurement of 1.562 on fired brass and 1.552 on the brass that wouldn't chamber. So around 10 thou of shoulder bump, quite a lot, but as far as I know that shouldn't cause any issues chambering.

I also checked seating depth COAL to Ogive, first with a hornady modified case. I got a measurement of 2.257. The bullets that would not chamber were all around 2.227 so 30 thou of bullet jump.

I then tried pulling the bullet, powder and primer and chambering the brass only. The same brass that would not chamber, went in without issue. Then I re-seated the same bullet to the same seating depth( 2.227 COAL To Ogive) and it would not chamber. This made me think, its for sure the bullet. So I seated it back 10 thou to 2.217, it still didn't chamber, and again to 2.207, then 2.197. Still no luck no matter how deep it went.

Just to be safe I also checked the brass trim length every piece of brass I checked was 1.915 or shorter. Well below the maximum of 1.920

So what am I missing here? Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[Jmkjr87]

You got a borescope is there a carbon ring built up? Is it a tight chamber?

 

[MarshallDodge]

Did you measure case diameter above the rim?

 

[Dobbs02si]

Sounds like a neck size issue if empty brass goes but loaded does not. Check loaded neck size to fired brass. Also check to OD of the neck does't have a big hair lip that needs chamfered.

 

[918v]

Could be case buckling due to too much crimp, seater die set up incorrectly. Once you pull the bullet the case neck has the ability to collapse and chamber.

Measure the loaded vs unloaded neck diameter.

 

[Jardinski]

Did you measure case diameter above the rim?

I just walked out to the garage and checked, 0.468 for both the ones that chamber and ones that don't.

 

[Jardinski]

Sounds like a neck size issue if empty brass goes but loaded does not. Check loaded neck size to fired brass. Also check to OD of the neck does't have a big hair lip that needs chamfered.

I think that might be it! I just went out and measured and there's a significant difference between the brass that chambers and the loaded cartridges.

 

[Dobbs02si]

Could be case buckling due to too much crimp, seater die set up incorrectly. Once you pull the bullet the case neck has the ability to collapse and chamber.

Measure the loaded vs unloaded neck diameter.

This is close. Those looke to have the crimp flared out pretty bad. I would try trimming those necks back and champfer inside/out. Should be g2g after that.

 

[Jardinski]

You got a borescope is there a carbon ring built up? Is it a tight chamber?

There is a little bit of carbon buildup, I'm going to soak it in Wipeout all night just to be safe. But I'm now thinking it's the flared lip as others have mentioned above. I don't have a 6.5 crimp die, but one should be here Tuesday to test.

 

[Dobbs02si]

I've never used a crimp on rifle brass, only pistol reloads. That being said in my limited experience with only two mag fed rifles I've yet to have a bullet setback issue without a crimp and .001-.0015 neck tension.

If you don't have a crimp die was it just from excessive seating pressure when the die hits the case mouth? Assuming that's what it references from as that's how my hornady dies are.

 

[Jardinski]

I've never used a crimp on rifle brass, only pistol reloads. That being said in my limited experience with only two mag fed rifles I've yet to have a bullet setback issue without a crimp and .001-.0015 neck tension.

If you don't have a crimp die was it just from excessive seating pressure when the die hits the case mouth? Assuming that's what it references from as that's how my hornady dies are.

Yeah, I've never used a crimp die on 6.5 either, which is why I don't have one. But my buddy who owns the rifle is picking up the crimp die on Tuesday to test. If I had to guess its probably the excessive seating pressure causing the flaring.

 

[KnowNothing256]

What sizing die are you using?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I think that might be it! I just went out and measured and there's a significant difference between the brass that chambers and the loaded cartridges.

SAAMI max loaded diameter is 0.295
SAAMI minimum chamber neck diameter is 0.296

I believe most “standard” 6.5cm reamers have a 0.296 neck.

You likely have no neck clearance. Could be due to neck wall thickness or as mentioned above crimping or rolling. Or a combination of those things.

Either way, you’re way too close to the chamber neck wall (actually larger if the 0.297 measurement is correct) unless you have a custom reamer with more clearance.

 

[Doom]

The bass is severely scratched below the shoulder. This looks like a seating die setup issue with the die. You need to make sure that this die doesn’t have the ability to roll crimp.

 

[Jardinski]

The bass is severely scratched below the shoulder. This looks like a seating die setup issue with the die. You need to make sure that this die doesn’t have the ability to roll crimp.

The seating die is a Whidden Micrometer seating die, which I believe does not have any ability to crimp.

Micrometer Seating Die - Whidden Gunworks

Our Seating Dies include either a Standard seating stem or a Bullet Specific seating stem. If you don't see your bullet listed in the Bullet Specific Stem drop down, we can also make a Custom Seating Stem to match your bullet.

www.whiddengunworks.com

 

[Doom]

The seating die is a Whidden Micrometer seating die, which I believe does not have any ability to crimp.

Micrometer Seating Die - Whidden Gunworks

Our Seating Dies include either a Standard seating stem or a Bullet Specific seating stem. If you don't see your bullet listed in the Bullet Specific Stem drop down, we can also make a Custom Seating Stem to match your bullet.

www.whiddengunworks.com

Agreed.

 

[Jardinski]

Hey guys, just got in the crimp die today, and that completely resolved the issue! The case just had too much of a lip that was keeping it from chambering.

Thanks everyone for the help!

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Hey guys, just got in the crimp die today, and that completely resolved the issue! The case just had too much of a lip that was keeping it from chambering.

Thanks everyone for the help!

Make sure you figure out why there is a lip.

Make sure seating die isn’t adjusted too far down.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Hey guys, just got in the crimp die today, and that completely resolved the issue! The case just had too much of a lip that was keeping it from chambering.

Thanks everyone for the help!

Yeah, you need to find out why there is a lip there.

 

[Dobbs02si]

I'm not understanding how the die can be down too far? I seat bullets with the hornady die until it touches the shoulder and carry on with life. I'm sure I could replicate what's been seen here, I just don't get too wild with pressure. When it stops drop the handle and move on.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I'm not understanding how the die can be down too far? I seat bullets with the hornady die until it touches the shoulder and carry on with life. I'm sure I could replicate what's been seen here, I just don't get too wild with pressure. When it stops drop the handle and move on.

Huh? I don't understand what you even mean by this and it doesnt make any sense to me, but why would you even reload if you aren't going to seat the bullet to a specific BTO for your gun?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I'm not understanding how the die can be down too far? I seat bullets with the hornady die until it touches the shoulder and carry on with life. I'm sure I could replicate what's been seen here, I just don't get too wild with pressure. When it stops drop the handle and move on.

You can have the die body screwed too far down and it with crimp if the die has crimping capability (Hornady does) or it can roll/flare the case mouth if not.

For example, the whidden seating die posted above. I have seen it flare case mouths if it was screwed too far down into the press.

 

[Dobbs02si]

Huh? I don't understand what you even mean by this and it doesnt make any sense to me, but why would you even reload if you aren't going to seat the bullet to a specific BTO for your gun?

Sorry, I meant the case mouth not shoulder for location. If you take the seating stem out of the hornady die the case will stop at the mouth when it contacts the die. It will seat bullets to +-.001 contacting the case mouth, so as long as the cases are trimmed the same the coal will follow right behind. Does that make more sense?

You can have the die body screwed too far down and it with crimp if the die has crimping capability (Hornady does) or it can roll/flare the case mouth if not.

For example, the whidden seating die posted above. I have seen it flare case mouths if it was screwed too far down into the press.

That goes back to what I was asking, how much pressure is being used to seat the pills? They take about as much, if not slightly more pressure than seating a primer in my cases. I would bave to bury the handle to gimp up a case mouth, which I don't do. I stop when he case mouth hits the die.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Sorry, I meant the case mouth not shoulder for location. If you take the seating stem out of the hornady die the case will stop at the mouth when it contacts the die. It will seat bullets to +-.001 contacting the case mouth, so as long as the cases are trimmed the same the coal will follow right behind. Does that make more sense?

That goes back to what I was asking, how much pressure is being used to seat the pills? They take about as much, if not slightly more pressure than seating a primer in my cases. I would bave to bury the handle to gimp up a case mouth, which I don't do. I stop when he case mouth hits the die.

Has absolutely nothing to with pressure and you shouldn’t be touching the case mouth with the die. If it is, you have the die set improperly.

 

[Dobbs02si]

So how do you control the seating depth with no reference to stop?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Sorry, I meant the case mouth not shoulder for location. If you take the seating stem out of the hornady die the case will stop at the mouth when it contacts the die. It will seat bullets to +-.001 contacting the case mouth, so as long as the cases are trimmed the same the coal will follow right behind. Does that make more sense?

That goes back to what I was asking, how much pressure is being used to seat the pills? They take about as much, if not slightly more pressure than seating a primer in my cases. I would bave to bury the handle to gimp up a case mouth, which I don't do. I stop when he case mouth hits the die.

What you said does make more sense yes. Your method does not though. I've not seen anyone seat a bullet but when the die touches the case mouth and I still don't understand this whole idea since that would vary the distance from the lands for each different bullet type/weight/ogive, and the whole point is to seat the bullet at the best seating depth in reference to the lands of the rifle. (Where it shoots best). Not to mention it would not be good for your case mouth to be impacted by the seating die.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

So how do you control the seating depth with no reference to stop?

You adjust the die and measure where the bullet is with a tool and calipers. Like this

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Only time Hornady die should touch the mouth is when crimping.

 

[KnowNothing256]

So how do you control the seating depth with no reference to stop?

You adjust the die and measure where the bullet is with a tool

@Dobbs02si There are typically two adjustments to a seating die: how far the die is screwed into the press (follow the manufacturer's instructions, but it's usually sometimes designed to contact the shellholder and sometimes not) and how far the seating stem is screwed into the die.

You set the first adjustment first, then back the seating stem out and reseat a bullet repeatedly while screwing the seating stem in slowly and rechecking COAL or CBTO after each stem adjustment.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

So how do you control the seating depth with no reference to stop?

Watch this video. You set it up where the ram is fully up.

 

[Dobbs02si]

A round from my 243 and 7/300. I have never damaged a case using this method. I have tried the handle down/ram up method and coal was +-.005 depending on the pressure at which the handle hits the stop. Guessing because of the inheret slack in the linkage? Either way, my method may not be correct, but I get the most consistent results this way by far on controlling coal.

 

[fdkay]

I was just talking to my local smith, he recently received a shipment of brass from Starline that was out of spec.

 

[Dobbs02si]

You adjust the die and measure where the bullet is with a tool and calipers. Like this

That is exactly what I do. I have a dummy round of everything I load set to touch the lands so I have a standard for every chamber. I use that to veirify bto length between lots AFTER I use a projectile crom the new lot. I also fl size and trim every case so every caze is the same length to normally within a thou. I'm a machinist of 14yr so I'm a bit ocd about consitency of measurements.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

That is exactly what I do. I have a dummy round of everything I load set to touch the lands so I have a standard for every chamber. I use that to veirify bto length between lots AFTER I use a projectile crom the new lot. I also fl size and trim every case so every caze is the same length to normally within a thou. I'm a machinist of 14yr so I'm a bit ocd about consitency of measurements.

Well, other than touching the case mouth (which I suppose if you are really careful it wouldn't be an issue) I guess that works, but I don't think it's more accurate than measuring the BTO and just using that measurement to adjust the die.

I think just doing it the typical way gives better results and you then can let the press stop hit fully and have repeatable results vs having to barely touch the die to the case mouth but if it works for you I guess keep on keeping on.

 

[hlee]

Soooo, you are using a crimp die to correct the belled mouth that is being caused by the incorrect use of the seating die? Needing to follow an overly complex protocol that is deleterious to the ultimate goal could be construed as an OCD behavior. Congratulations on being, quite possibly, the only person on Sniper'sHide to use that term close to correctly.

 

[Dobbs02si]

Using the handle stop was my biggest issue. The flex/slack in the linkage would put the lengths all over the map when I used that method.

The way I look at it is if I touch the mouth of a case that is exactly 2.09"(7/300) long to a seating die may of tool steel, there is no longer a length variable other than the fine adjustment made to the seating die. I use the fine adjustment to set the jump to .010 via BTO measurement and they all seat to within +-.001, not +-.005 using the handle stop alone.

Not saying the common/manufactures method is wrong, it just doesn't work as consistent for me.

Anyway, back to the point at hand. I bet the OP/reloader was using a similar method to mine plus the handle stop as well. If any of the cases were longer than what the die was set with it would explain the flared neck if he went to the handle stop. Maybe?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Soooo, you are using a crimp die to correct the belled mouth that is being caused by the incorrect use of the seating die? Needing to follow an overly complex protocol that is deleterious to the ultimate goal could be construed as an OCD behavior. Congratulations on being, quite possibly, the only person on Sniper'sHide to use that term close to correctly.

I think the OP used a crimp die to correct the issue. Not the current poster indexing off the case mouth.

The OP likely has the seating die screwed down too much.

 

[hlee]

I think the OP used a crimp die to correct the issue. Not the current poster indexing off the case mouth.

The OP likely has the seating die screwed down too much.

Thanks. I lost track of who's problems were who's...

Though, I think it could well be argued that indexing off of the case mouth is also having the seating die screwed down too much...

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Thanks. I lost track of who's problems were who's...

Though, I think it could well be argued that indexing off of the case mouth is also having the seating die screwed down too much...

Oh it definitely is. He’s just stopping before it crimps.

 

[Jardinski]

As far as I'm aware the whidden die I'm using doesn't crimp at all so I don't think its an issue of setting the die up incorrectly. I verified by watching the setup video and setting it up from scratch and It's still flaring a little.

The crimp die fixes the issue 100% but I don't know why its flaring in the first place.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

As far as I'm aware the whidden die I'm using doesn't crimp at all so I don't think its an issue of setting the die up incorrectly. I verified by watching the setup video and setting it up from scratch and It's still flaring a little.

The crimp die fixes the issue 100% but I don't know why its flaring in the first place.

It doesn’t have to have the ability to crimp to flare the neck. The pic below was the result of a whidden seating die screwed just a bit more than it should have been.

The reason the crimp fixed is is because it rolled the flare back in.

Something is happening when you’re seating and it’s going to be die related. Seating pressure alone won’t do that. You can seat well over 100psi on a gauge and not have that happen.

Screw the die up a turn or two from where it’s set now and use the adjustment to seat it further down. So you know it’s not the issue. If it still flares the mouth, send it in or buy another die and see what happens.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Also, make sure the seating sleeve doesn’t retract all the way into the die. It should only move a little and still be exposed.

Several (myself included) have watched that video and thought he meant the die outer body should touch the ram. It’s the sleeve that touches and shouldn’t retract all the way.

 

[Dobbs02si]

As far as I'm aware the whidden die I'm using doesn't crimp at all so I don't think its an issue of setting the die up incorrectly. I verified by watching the setup video and setting it up from scratch and It's still flaring a little.

The crimp die fixes the issue 100% but I don't know why its flaring in the first place.

Out of curiosity, what is the sized neck diameter vs loaded?