• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

clmayfield

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 14, 2008
2,054
9
49
San Antonio, Texas
As some of you all know, I compete in the Smack the Smiley comp and have been doing pretty well. Y'all also know that I am an Eley fanboy. Eley has changed the way that they distribute ammo, which makes it harder to test lots, so my source turned me onto RWS. I shot one lot at 100 yards and it shot lights out. Instantly, I bought half a case.

At 50 yards, I shot the 50yd tactical target, and while I cleaned the target, I came close to dropping a bunch of points. So something looked fishy. I shot a couple of groups after that and they tightened up, so I thought maybe it was a form issue.

Then it came time to shoot Smack the Smiley this round. I shot 3 targets and dropped a bunch of easy points... could it be that the ammo that I just bought a half a case of doesn't shoot at 50? I have never experienced anything like that before.

People ask me from time to time if I run a chronograph on my 22. The answer is I don't... because what am I supposed to do with the information? I can't reload with a 22, so there is nothing I can do to improve my SD's. And I don't really need a ballistic program to calculate my drops because I shoot mostly known distance and the unknown distance I shoot with, I know well enough to dope by knowledge (in other words, in this part of the field, I hold .2 mils high).

But curiosity got the best of me on this one. I thought that perhaps, the RWS was moving faster than the Eley, allowing for better performance. This was because I noticed less drop with RWS than Eley.

Here is what I found:
RWS Velocity: 1,119 fps, SD (20 shot): 5.1 fps
"Bad" Eley Velocity: 1077 fps, SD (20 shots) 8.8 fps
"Good" Eley Velocity: 1,076 fps, SD (20 shots): 7.2 fps

The "Good" Eley is the stuff that has tested well for me. The "Bad" Eley is lots that I determined don't work for my gun. I keep those around for foulers. Interestingly, the "Bad" Eley is rated at 1063 fps, and the "Good Eley" is rated at 1080 fps, yet they chronoed esentially the same.

What stands out about these results is that the RWS R50 is both faster and has almost half the SD of the Eley. At 110 yards (my testing range), 2 times the SD equals an advantage of .1 inch for the RWS. That doesn't sound like much, but it is huge. For me, the difference between a good lot and a bad lot is around .1 or .2 inches at 100. BTW... this is using Eley's published BC, which is .14, compared to RWS's published BC, which is .105. I can see Eley delivering a higher BC, but not 30%-40% higher in a round-nose bullet configuration.

Another striking thing is the fact that the velocity of the RWS is higher than mach. So, the RWS is travelling in the transonic zone for some of its travel. This lack of stability early in flight could be part of the accuracy issue I am having at short range. The interesting thing is that RWS sells an even hotter version of the R50 called R100. The truth is, I probably need a slower version.

So it is apparent that the issues with R50 at short range are overcome at longer range, where it can equal and perhaps best the Eley. I need to try at 200 where the ballistics should really take over and JBM predicts that RWS will shine...

One more thing. After cleaning my bore, the first Eley shot came in at 1168 fps. This is nine and a half standard deviations above the average. Statistically speaking, something is up if you are 2 standard deviations out of the average, so clearly, there is a huge first round clean bore effect going on, which is why I don't like to use a cold bore shot for record. Experience tells me it is around .2 mils high at 50. Now I know why.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Damn you're getting 9 1/2 standard deviations... That's really not good at all... Definatly let us all know how your testing @200yrds goes, I for one am really interested to hear the results.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn you're getting 9 1/2 standard deviations... That's really not good at all... Definatly let us all know how your testing @200yrds goes, I for one am really interested to hear the results. </div></div>

Perhaps I didn't communicate that clearly. The cold bore shot was 9 1/2 SD's above the average, or about 91 fps fast. My point was that 91 fps high was definitely more than a statistical fluctuation. Also what is interesting was that the next shot was within the range of statistical fluctuation. There is a definite clean bore effect going on.

I don't have enough data to say that the clean bore effect is consistent, but I have found through the short range tactical comp that my cold bore is relatively consistent in orientation to my aiming point.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Carter,
I have a good friend who is one of the best NRA smallbore prone shooters in the country. He is constantly testing and tweaking. He has found the accuracy diffrence between 50 and 100 yards is not always linear. If your ammo shoots a .5" group at 50 does not mean it will shoot 1" at 100. In fact he has found often the groups will be smaller MOA wise at 100 than 50. Just some food for thought.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Hmmm... I have found that I shoot about half MOA at 50 and one MOA at 100 (using 5-shot groups and long term averages). I find it hard to believe that groups would tighten MOA-wise going from 50 to 100... but I guess it is possible for some ammo and some rifles.

At 100 yards, the ballistics take over while up close, I think things like concentricity and harmonics dominate the accuracy equation. I would like to see the results of your buddy's study. Sounds interesting.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Interesting find Carter, especially since R50 is specifically designed for 50 yard competition. According to Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition, the author had a SD of 25.19 fps with R-50, while R-100 had a SD of 5.36 fps, and shot 'better' at 50 yards v. R-50. Then again RWS Rifle Match <span style="font-style: italic">just</span> edged out R-50 and 100 based on avg. group size and a SD of 6.33, so go figure. A 50-100-200 yard comparison would prove to be interesting.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Dang it Carter! Its stinkin' Monday! My brain ain't working yet and you are making me think???
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik.300ultra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting find Carter, especially since R50 is specifically designed for 50 yard competition. According to Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition, the author had a SD of 25.19 fps with R-50, while R-100 had a SD of 5.36 fps, and shot 'better' at 50 yards v. R-50. Then again RWS Rifle Match <span style="font-style: italic">just</span> edged out R-50 and 100 based on avg. group size and a SD of 6.33, so go figure. A 50-100-200 yard comparison would prove to be interesting.</div></div>

As you know, there is a lot of lot-to-lot variation with rimfire ammo. I might have gotten a hot lot of R50. I was testing at 75 degrees F, which should not cause the load to run particularly fast. It is interesting.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik.300ultra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting find Carter, especially since R50 is specifically designed for 50 yard competition. According to Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition, the author had a SD of 25.19 fps with R-50, while R-100 had a SD of 5.36 fps, and shot 'better' at 50 yards v. R-50. Then again RWS Rifle Match <span style="font-style: italic">just</span> edged out R-50 and 100 based on avg. group size and a SD of 6.33, so go figure. A 50-100-200 yard comparison would prove to be interesting.</div></div>

As you know, there is a lot of lot-to-lot variation with rimfire ammo. I might have gotten a hot lot of R50. I was testing at 75 degrees F, which should not cause the load to run particularly fast. It is interesting. </div></div>

The Author's batch of R-50 averaged 1117 fps, sounds like "hot" is the standard!

And don't let me hear anymore of that 75 degrees stuff. The snow is flying around here pretty good today...BRRRRRR!
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

I understand what you meant and I think I did last night when I replied too but for some reason I think I miswrote what I wanted to say. I hope that makes at least a bit of sense!
smile.gif
I just thought it was really odd that you were getting such a massive boost in FPS on the clean cold bore

Sorry for the confusion,
-Dylan
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

OK, nevermind... you did understand what I was saying. Yes, that is quite a boost. Most small deviations in velocity won't show up at 50 yds, which is why Eley can get away with having a pretty high SD. But the difference in my first round definitely showed up on the chrony... and the paper.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik.300ultra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Author's batch of R-50 averaged 1117 fps, sounds like "hot" is the standard!
</div></div>

That is basically my exact result. Hot for Eley is 1080. I have never seen a batch at 1090. Typical is in the 1060 range (for Eley). IMO, that R50 is moving too fast for 50 yards. But it works like a champ at 100 for me..
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik.300ultra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Author's batch of R-50 averaged 1117 fps, sounds like "hot" is the standard!
</div></div>

That is basically my exact result. Hot for Eley is 1080. I have never seen a batch at 1090. Typical is in the 1060 range (for Eley). IMO, that R50 is moving too fast for 50 yards. But it works like a champ at 100 for me..</div></div>

Eley is the better choice for 50 yards and RWS for 100 for me. I don't think the RWS stabilizes good at 50. At 50 in a light wind RWS does ok,in a heavy wind it doesn't fair so well. RWS is a faster ammo then Eley and I think it will show more shooter error at 50. Then again I have seen guy shooting RWS just kill it at 50 yards.

Try shooting a few RWS sighters and then shoot Eley without cleaning, might be in for a surprise

Jim

To get the RWS at slower speeds you need to try the pistol rounds. 1030 to 1040 I think.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

I chrony's some Eley with round nose/Paraffin recently
here is what I got.

Beeswax-Tallow is to much $$ for me.
anyway....
<span style="font-weight: bold">Chrony results for Eley Sport-Green Box(Target, Yellow Box in USA) </span>
Temp=40F


String 1
Shot1 1065
Shot2 1047
Shot3 1067
Shot4 1059
Shot5 1041

Low 1041
High 1067
Extreme Spread 26
Average 1056
Standard Deviation 11


String 2
Shot1 1062
Shot2 1017
Shot3 1041
Shot4 1041
Shot5 1053

Low 1017
High 1062
Extreme Spread 45
Average 1043
Standard Deviation 17


String 3
Shot1 1044
Shot2 1042
Shot3 1041
Shot4 1043
Shot5 1047

Low 1041
High 1047
Extreme Spread 6
Average 1043
Standard Deviation 2



<span style="font-weight: bold">Chrony results for
Eley Club-Orange Box </span>
Temp=40F

String 1
Shot1 1069
Shot2 1051
Shot3 1026
Shot4 1033
Shot5 1035

Low 1026
High 1069
Extreme Spread 43
Average 1043
Standard Deviation 17

String 2
Shot1 1039
Shot2 1031
Shot3 1043
Shot4 1037
Shot5 1025

Low 1025
High 1043
Extreme Spread 18
Average 1035
Standard Deviation 7
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Federal Gold Medal Match and Ultra-Match is actually RWS ammo re-packaged (like Wolf/SK). Match is RWS Special Match and Ultra-Match is R50.

Special Match shot better than R50 for me, and is cheaper.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erik.300ultra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 50-100-200 yard comparison would prove to be interesting. </div></div>

Shot these test groups on a fairly windy day (same day), so there is a lot of side-to-side, but the vertical dispersion is very good:

P1050786.jpg


P1050789.jpg


The Eley EPS bullet did seem to buck the wind a little better than the round nose bullets.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Eley is the better choice for 50 yards and RWS for 100 for me. I don't think the RWS stabilizes good at 50. At 50 in a light wind RWS does ok,in a heavy wind it doesn't fair so well. RWS is a faster ammo then Eley and I think it will show more shooter error at 50. Then again I have seen guy shooting RWS just kill it at 50 yards.

Try shooting a few RWS sighters and then shoot Eley without cleaning, might be in for a surprise

Jim

To get the RWS at slower speeds you need to try the pistol rounds. 1030 to 1040 I think. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Eley is the better choice for 50 yards and RWS for 100 for me. I don't think the RWS stabilizes good at 50. At 50 in a light wind RWS does ok,in a heavy wind it doesn't fair so well. RWS is a faster ammo then Eley and I think it will show more shooter error at 50. Then again I have seen guy shooting RWS just kill it at 50 yards.

Try shooting a few RWS sighters and then shoot Eley without cleaning, might be in for a surprise

Jim

To get the RWS at slower speeds you need to try the pistol rounds. 1030 to 1040 I think. </div></div>

It is interesting... the RWS definitely needs a good coat of lube down to start shooting well again. Eley will generally shoot well just 5 rounds after a good cleaning. I guess RWS lube is pretty good, then?

When you say RWS R50 shows more shooter error, what do you mean by that?

And one more question... how did you do at Smack the Smiley this round? I was hoping to break the agg record, and I think I did. BUT I think you will end up with a higher agg this year. I have a target that should score about 240 and one that hinges on whether I edged a snowflake. If I edged the snowflake, the score will be in the 260's or 270. If not, I don't think I will crack the top 5. In the past, I have had targets that I was pretty sure I nailed the smiley where Jason hasn't given me the points, so I am not 100% confident on my ability to judge it.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

I don't know why but the RWS lube coats the barrel and maybe the Eley likes the to slide across it. I can go to a target with 3 or 4 rounds of Eley. I use some oil not sure of the name after I clean the barrel and I think it coats the barrel as well. Bob Collins is now a stocking dealer for RWS and chrony's most of the lots.

RWS is quite a bit faster then ELEY and I think shooter error with a faster round is magnified

As for the STS I had a good target maybe not good as your's my group seemed a little big but I didn't measure it

 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm... I have found that I shoot about half MOA at 50 and one MOA at 100 (using 5-shot groups and long term averages). I find it hard to believe that groups would tighten MOA-wise going from 50 to 100... but I guess it is possible for some ammo and some rifles.

At 100 yards, the ballistics take over while up close, I think things like concentricity and harmonics dominate the accuracy equation. I would like to see the results of your buddy's study. Sounds interesting. </div></div>

I cant show you any hard data. We both shoot NRA smallbore prone and this was just something we spoke about. As I said he is one of the best and I have no doubt what he says is good info.
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

Can you speak to him and ask him for proof of his findings? Not that I doubt his or your word but evidence is allways nice to have
smile.gif


Just a thought...
-Dylan
 
Re: Chronoing the 22LR: Eley vs RWS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">fter I clean the barrel and I think it coats the barrel as well. Bob Collins is now a stocking dealer for RWS and chrony's most of the lots.

RWS is quite a bit faster then ELEY and I think shooter error with a faster round is magnified

As for the STS I had a good target maybe not good as your's my group seemed a little big but I didn't measure it

</div></div>

What a coincidence! Bob has been selling me Eley and now sells me R50. I will try the R50, then Eley trick.

My STS is a binary thing. Either 240 or 260 points. I hope my 260-pointer counts but good luck!