I recently picked up a lightly used CLE/ Bartlein upper. It's an 18" 7.7", CLE chamber, intermediate has length glued into a VLTOR MUR upper. It uses a non-adjustable gas block, BCM BCG, MCMR rail and charging handle. I bought an Aero M4 lower, CMC 2.5lb single stage, and put a VLTOR A5 with A4 buffer on it. Mounted a NF NX8 4x32 and Ultra 5 on it. It weighs 11lbs 12 oz as pictured.
I immediately tried my go-to load of Hornady 75gr BTHP's in the gun. This load works great in everything I've tried it in. 23.5gr 8208 XBR in LC brass, bullets seated to mag length. I load these in 1000rd lots and just keep them in hand. 2950fps in my 26" bolt gun and 2800fps in my 20" WOA .223 Wylde gas gun. They shot about 1.5moa in this new upper. Not great. I tried Ramshot TAC with the 75's and got average .7". Doable but not what this upper deserves. I shot some MK262 out of it and it showed promise. My .223 Wylde chambered bolt gun and 20" WOA shoot the 75 BTHP load better than the MK262 but this upper definitely was the opposite. I spoke to the previous owner and stated the 77 SMK performed better for him. I almost bought some Berger 77 OTM but they're about $80 a thousand more expensive. So I picked up some 77 SMKs to load.
Another thing I noticed with this upper is that it is overgassed. Especially with a TBAC suppressor. The recoil impulse is not smooth. It is also the first AR I've shot that shoots better with a loose or neutral hold. I ordered an AGB to see if I can take it down a little but overall if I was ordering an identical upper from CLE I might opt for a Wylde chamber and rifle length gas. I don't know what the port size is but it's a bit big. I shot this upper with a JP SCS with 3 tungsten weights and a VLTOR A5 H4 buffer.
So I loaded up some 77 SMKs with A2520 and TAC and took out my 20" WOA and .233 Wylde bolt gun to compare.
The 20" White Oak Armament rifle is just a WOA 1:7" Wylde chamber SPR barrel in some no-name heavy, billet, side-charging upper and heavy BCG. I have a seekins AGB, ironically the same handguard, an Aero M4 lower, CMC 2.5lb SS, JP SCS, and Luth AR stock on a rifle length buffer tube. Basically a bunch of Franken parts but it shoots well and is reliable. It shoot the 75gr BTHP load well at 2800fps. I've never tried to shoot a bunch of small groups with it but I'd reckon .5's" aren't too rate for it. It's really nice having a universal load that works equally well in my bolt gun and gas gun. The recoil impulse on this gun is very noticeably smoother and the rifle is less picky about how you shoot it but it does prefer a bit of a tighter hold. I think I paid $275 for the barrel and built around it. It weighs 12lbs even as pictured.
The bolt gun is a 26" Krieger 7.5" Heavy Palma barrel chambered with a Wylde chamber. It is screwed in to my Zermatt TL3 every once in awhile and I use Accurate mag single stack .223 AICS pattern mags. This is one of my switch barrel rifles and will wear any number of barrels depending on the day. It weighs 18lbs 14oz as pictured. I've added nothing specific to up it's weight. Just an MPA BA Comp folding chassis, S&B PMII 5x25, Hawkins rings, Ultra 7, TT Diamond, Atlas Cal G2 bipod. It shoots the 75gr BTHP load very well at 2950fps. When I get into a range session shooting for small groups it's not too hard to shoot a couple of .25" groups. I brought it out today to be a control. The recoil impulse is exceptionally smooth
So here were the results....
18" Bartlein
75gr BTHP 24.4gr A2520. Whew, pretty gross.
-----------------------------
24.7gr A2520, 75gr BTHP. not much better
--------------------------------
25gr A2520. I confess, I shot a ladder earlier in the morning with A2520 and BTHPs just to figure out where I wanted my velocity to be and understand pressure and the 25gr load is where it came together.
----------------------
So now to the SMKs.
24.4gr A2520 77 SMK. Okay. Not a bad start......
-----------------------
24.7gr and 25gr A2520, 77gr SMK. There we go.... starting to look good.
-----------------
So now the 20" WOA and 75BTHP/ 23.5gr 8208 load. Using a firm hold I get a .4" group.
-------
Okay, so now the .223 Bolt gun shooting the 75gr BTHP 8208 XBR load. It almost felt foreign getting behind it after shooting a gas gun all week. I unintentionally used a loose hold on the first group and then settled in for the second group.
So all that to lay out some different styles of "precision" ARs. On one hand we have a $600 barrel on a $1200 upper, glued in to one of the highest recommended heavy uppers. It's in keeping with the quality/ basic BCG, non-adjustable gas block, a little overgassed for reliability no doubt. It looks smaller and more portable. I really dig the way it looks and if it continues to hammer with the SMK's I'll have a lot of fun with it. But I have to say it seams to be pickier about what ammo it likes. The intermediate has length makes for a much more challenging to shoot rifle that hops a lot more on recoil and is picky about how the shooter drives it. Even with an A5-4 buffer it tends to but up the cases but the primers look great. It really needs a choke on that gas. And it's really not that much lighter or smaller than a 20". I might cut it down to 16" just to have something different, get the suppressor unnecessarily closer to the handguard for that cool look, and cut down on the dwell.
The WOA 20" SPR on the other hand is more indiscriminately put together, franken'd out, but is easier to shoot, less picky about what ammo it wants to shoot, is so much smoother and you can see impact a lot easier through the scope and only weighs 1/4lb more.
I've really come to appreciate some of the nuance of precision ARs comparing these guns. I'm thinking about picking up an Armalite M15 comp 18" rifle length 1:7" barrel. I have an Armalite M15 Competition for 3G and it regularly shoots just under MOA with a wide variety of blaster ammo I load. You can see some fragments of groups in the above pictures where I was shooting some 62gr BTHP using it. I was shooting prone unsupported with a SWFA 1-6x just digging the mag onto the dirt for a rest. It's an ugly gun but it shoots well. I don't know if all Armalite M15 Competition barrels are that way or I just lucked out. With the massive 3 port brake, adjustable gas block, and 18" rifle length it is very smooth. The muzzle doesn't go anywhere on recoil. Armalite sells the 18" M15 Competition barrels on their site for $185. I'm thinking about picking one up and assembling an upper from cheaper Aero parts just to compare. It would be hilarious to assemble a $650 upper that shoots with this CLE Bartlein. But in anlore forgiving, easier to shoot package of Franken parts. Sometimes it's amazing what you can get away with.
Anyway, I just thought it was a fun comparison. Up next is a $330 14" McGowen mid length gas 1:7.7" in a lite contour that's going on this suppressed blaster. The 13.9" BA Hansen barrel is atrocious for accuracy. But it is very smooth shooter. I'm spec'ing the McGowen barrel for a 5/8 24 muzzle, .100" has port for an automatic AGB use.
I immediately tried my go-to load of Hornady 75gr BTHP's in the gun. This load works great in everything I've tried it in. 23.5gr 8208 XBR in LC brass, bullets seated to mag length. I load these in 1000rd lots and just keep them in hand. 2950fps in my 26" bolt gun and 2800fps in my 20" WOA .223 Wylde gas gun. They shot about 1.5moa in this new upper. Not great. I tried Ramshot TAC with the 75's and got average .7". Doable but not what this upper deserves. I shot some MK262 out of it and it showed promise. My .223 Wylde chambered bolt gun and 20" WOA shoot the 75 BTHP load better than the MK262 but this upper definitely was the opposite. I spoke to the previous owner and stated the 77 SMK performed better for him. I almost bought some Berger 77 OTM but they're about $80 a thousand more expensive. So I picked up some 77 SMKs to load.
Another thing I noticed with this upper is that it is overgassed. Especially with a TBAC suppressor. The recoil impulse is not smooth. It is also the first AR I've shot that shoots better with a loose or neutral hold. I ordered an AGB to see if I can take it down a little but overall if I was ordering an identical upper from CLE I might opt for a Wylde chamber and rifle length gas. I don't know what the port size is but it's a bit big. I shot this upper with a JP SCS with 3 tungsten weights and a VLTOR A5 H4 buffer.
So I loaded up some 77 SMKs with A2520 and TAC and took out my 20" WOA and .233 Wylde bolt gun to compare.
The 20" White Oak Armament rifle is just a WOA 1:7" Wylde chamber SPR barrel in some no-name heavy, billet, side-charging upper and heavy BCG. I have a seekins AGB, ironically the same handguard, an Aero M4 lower, CMC 2.5lb SS, JP SCS, and Luth AR stock on a rifle length buffer tube. Basically a bunch of Franken parts but it shoots well and is reliable. It shoot the 75gr BTHP load well at 2800fps. I've never tried to shoot a bunch of small groups with it but I'd reckon .5's" aren't too rate for it. It's really nice having a universal load that works equally well in my bolt gun and gas gun. The recoil impulse on this gun is very noticeably smoother and the rifle is less picky about how you shoot it but it does prefer a bit of a tighter hold. I think I paid $275 for the barrel and built around it. It weighs 12lbs even as pictured.
The bolt gun is a 26" Krieger 7.5" Heavy Palma barrel chambered with a Wylde chamber. It is screwed in to my Zermatt TL3 every once in awhile and I use Accurate mag single stack .223 AICS pattern mags. This is one of my switch barrel rifles and will wear any number of barrels depending on the day. It weighs 18lbs 14oz as pictured. I've added nothing specific to up it's weight. Just an MPA BA Comp folding chassis, S&B PMII 5x25, Hawkins rings, Ultra 7, TT Diamond, Atlas Cal G2 bipod. It shoots the 75gr BTHP load very well at 2950fps. When I get into a range session shooting for small groups it's not too hard to shoot a couple of .25" groups. I brought it out today to be a control. The recoil impulse is exceptionally smooth
So here were the results....
18" Bartlein
75gr BTHP 24.4gr A2520. Whew, pretty gross.
-----------------------------
24.7gr A2520, 75gr BTHP. not much better
--------------------------------
25gr A2520. I confess, I shot a ladder earlier in the morning with A2520 and BTHPs just to figure out where I wanted my velocity to be and understand pressure and the 25gr load is where it came together.
----------------------
So now to the SMKs.
24.4gr A2520 77 SMK. Okay. Not a bad start......
-----------------------
24.7gr and 25gr A2520, 77gr SMK. There we go.... starting to look good.
-----------------
So now the 20" WOA and 75BTHP/ 23.5gr 8208 load. Using a firm hold I get a .4" group.
-------
Okay, so now the .223 Bolt gun shooting the 75gr BTHP 8208 XBR load. It almost felt foreign getting behind it after shooting a gas gun all week. I unintentionally used a loose hold on the first group and then settled in for the second group.
So all that to lay out some different styles of "precision" ARs. On one hand we have a $600 barrel on a $1200 upper, glued in to one of the highest recommended heavy uppers. It's in keeping with the quality/ basic BCG, non-adjustable gas block, a little overgassed for reliability no doubt. It looks smaller and more portable. I really dig the way it looks and if it continues to hammer with the SMK's I'll have a lot of fun with it. But I have to say it seams to be pickier about what ammo it likes. The intermediate has length makes for a much more challenging to shoot rifle that hops a lot more on recoil and is picky about how the shooter drives it. Even with an A5-4 buffer it tends to but up the cases but the primers look great. It really needs a choke on that gas. And it's really not that much lighter or smaller than a 20". I might cut it down to 16" just to have something different, get the suppressor unnecessarily closer to the handguard for that cool look, and cut down on the dwell.
The WOA 20" SPR on the other hand is more indiscriminately put together, franken'd out, but is easier to shoot, less picky about what ammo it wants to shoot, is so much smoother and you can see impact a lot easier through the scope and only weighs 1/4lb more.
I've really come to appreciate some of the nuance of precision ARs comparing these guns. I'm thinking about picking up an Armalite M15 comp 18" rifle length 1:7" barrel. I have an Armalite M15 Competition for 3G and it regularly shoots just under MOA with a wide variety of blaster ammo I load. You can see some fragments of groups in the above pictures where I was shooting some 62gr BTHP using it. I was shooting prone unsupported with a SWFA 1-6x just digging the mag onto the dirt for a rest. It's an ugly gun but it shoots well. I don't know if all Armalite M15 Competition barrels are that way or I just lucked out. With the massive 3 port brake, adjustable gas block, and 18" rifle length it is very smooth. The muzzle doesn't go anywhere on recoil. Armalite sells the 18" M15 Competition barrels on their site for $185. I'm thinking about picking one up and assembling an upper from cheaper Aero parts just to compare. It would be hilarious to assemble a $650 upper that shoots with this CLE Bartlein. But in anlore forgiving, easier to shoot package of Franken parts. Sometimes it's amazing what you can get away with.
Anyway, I just thought it was a fun comparison. Up next is a $330 14" McGowen mid length gas 1:7.7" in a lite contour that's going on this suppressed blaster. The 13.9" BA Hansen barrel is atrocious for accuracy. But it is very smooth shooter. I'm spec'ing the McGowen barrel for a 5/8 24 muzzle, .100" has port for an automatic AGB use.
