Gunsmithing Cleaning a crown with a brake
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Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
You don't.
Leave it be. There is a greater chance of jacking up the crown than just leaving it alone. The only time I clean the muzzle on a braked barrel is if i have to pull the device off for some reason.
Looking forward to taking some pics when I have to remove the brake from my AI.
You don't.
Leave it be. There is a greater chance of jacking up the crown than just leaving it alone. The only time I clean the muzzle on a braked barrel is if i have to pull the device off for some reason.
Looking forward to taking some pics when I have to remove the brake from my AI.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Soak it with some solvent then, but you will most likely find that carbon buildup is not the cause.
I have had it to the point that chunks fall off when I remove the brake with no discernible effect on accuracy. Now if you get in there and jack up the natural distribution, then I could see it causing issues, but my feeling is that the carbon ring is a self-limiting buildup. Gas cutting will keep it from growing to the point it disrupts the bullet. However that is speculation, I don't have any scientific data to back it up and welcome any experience to the contrary.
Soak it with some solvent then, but you will most likely find that carbon buildup is not the cause.
I have had it to the point that chunks fall off when I remove the brake with no discernible effect on accuracy. Now if you get in there and jack up the natural distribution, then I could see it causing issues, but my feeling is that the carbon ring is a self-limiting buildup. Gas cutting will keep it from growing to the point it disrupts the bullet. However that is speculation, I don't have any scientific data to back it up and welcome any experience to the contrary.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Soak it with a carbon solvent.
I also doubt your accuracy problems are from carbon build up. Check to make your your brake is not shifting and is tight if it is removable.
Soak it with a carbon solvent.
I also doubt your accuracy problems are from carbon build up. Check to make your your brake is not shifting and is tight if it is removable.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
I don't like to install brakes with any exceptional torque. When you torque a fastener you are applying a degree of stretch to the metal. Stretching the last part of the rifling the bullet comes in contact with cannot be a good thing.
The brake on my AR10 is just snug. It hasn't moved under some seriously hot rapid fire. When I have the choice I prefer "clamp" type brakes like the Badger FTE or AI type.
I don't like to install brakes with any exceptional torque. When you torque a fastener you are applying a degree of stretch to the metal. Stretching the last part of the rifling the bullet comes in contact with cannot be a good thing.
The brake on my AR10 is just snug. It hasn't moved under some seriously hot rapid fire. When I have the choice I prefer "clamp" type brakes like the Badger FTE or AI type.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't like to install brakes with any exceptional torque. When you torque a fastener you are applying a degree of stretch to the metal. Stretching the last part of the rifling the bullet comes in contact with cannot be a good thing.
The brake on my AR10 is just snug. It hasn't moved under some seriously hot rapid fire. When I have the choice I prefer "clamp" type brakes like the Badger FTE or AI type.
</div></div>
you are worried about the torque on a 60* thread form of a muzzle brake distorting the rifling but you prefer a clamp-on style brake? either one has the potential to distort the bore dimensions if you get carried away.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't like to install brakes with any exceptional torque. When you torque a fastener you are applying a degree of stretch to the metal. Stretching the last part of the rifling the bullet comes in contact with cannot be a good thing.
The brake on my AR10 is just snug. It hasn't moved under some seriously hot rapid fire. When I have the choice I prefer "clamp" type brakes like the Badger FTE or AI type.
</div></div>
you are worried about the torque on a 60* thread form of a muzzle brake distorting the rifling but you prefer a clamp-on style brake? either one has the potential to distort the bore dimensions if you get carried away.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
stick a brass rod thru the ports and hit the rod with a hammer to brake it lose, if it is lock tited you may have to apply some heat first to losen it.
It is likly not carbon build up at all. look at the leading edge of the thru holes and see if a bur is rolling into the clearance hole thus constricting it. This may cause your ,020" clearance to be unconcentric and it may now only be .005-.010"
Brakes made out of soft, unhardened material will do this more than hardened brakes. If you have a bore scope it is real easy to see.
stick a brass rod thru the ports and hit the rod with a hammer to brake it lose, if it is lock tited you may have to apply some heat first to losen it.
It is likly not carbon build up at all. look at the leading edge of the thru holes and see if a bur is rolling into the clearance hole thus constricting it. This may cause your ,020" clearance to be unconcentric and it may now only be .005-.010"
Brakes made out of soft, unhardened material will do this more than hardened brakes. If you have a bore scope it is real easy to see.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
I have a bit of real time info on this subject for ya. I have a TRG22 that now is around 4k for the round count. The first 3k were with a Near brake and the last 1k have been suppressed. I have noticed a steady loss in accuracy after going suppressed, at first it was good though. I was shooting the rifle 2 weeks ago and with the same load that I have used for 4k rounds it was not shooting for shit. I was sure it was time to send it off for a new tube. I decided to shoot w/o the can and found the same results. I have also been watching a heavy carbon build up growing on the muzzle in the last 1k rounds. I have never liked this b/c I am a clean freak and have very good results keeping my rifles clean (to my specs). Well I have never attempted to clean this build up off for fear of damaging the crown. Well at this point I could give a damn about the crown so I used my knife and scraped the carbon off to clean metal (this took some doing). I then patched out the bore to remove any carbon that may have gone back up in the bore. I then reinstalled the can and loaded 5 more rounds (from the same batch of ammo that was shooting like crap 10 min before) and shot a 5 round group that was back to what I remember the rilfe always doing! I shot a few more and had the same results, my TRG was back and I had saved $1K or so for a rebarrel. I have shot the rifle agan sence cleaning the muzzle and it was good as ever. So to put into perspective the impact on accuracy the carbon build up had on my rifle I was always shooting 1/2 MOA or better (usually better) and progressed to over 1 MOA, and the first group after cleaning was 3/8 MOA or so with a few others in the same general size and the next trip to the range it was doing the same. Actually the 2nd trip BM11 shot a 0.600" 5 round group @ 275yds, and I shot one similar. So based on what I have seen with my own rifle I say clean that shit off and keep it clean!
I have a bit of real time info on this subject for ya. I have a TRG22 that now is around 4k for the round count. The first 3k were with a Near brake and the last 1k have been suppressed. I have noticed a steady loss in accuracy after going suppressed, at first it was good though. I was shooting the rifle 2 weeks ago and with the same load that I have used for 4k rounds it was not shooting for shit. I was sure it was time to send it off for a new tube. I decided to shoot w/o the can and found the same results. I have also been watching a heavy carbon build up growing on the muzzle in the last 1k rounds. I have never liked this b/c I am a clean freak and have very good results keeping my rifles clean (to my specs). Well I have never attempted to clean this build up off for fear of damaging the crown. Well at this point I could give a damn about the crown so I used my knife and scraped the carbon off to clean metal (this took some doing). I then patched out the bore to remove any carbon that may have gone back up in the bore. I then reinstalled the can and loaded 5 more rounds (from the same batch of ammo that was shooting like crap 10 min before) and shot a 5 round group that was back to what I remember the rilfe always doing! I shot a few more and had the same results, my TRG was back and I had saved $1K or so for a rebarrel. I have shot the rifle agan sence cleaning the muzzle and it was good as ever. So to put into perspective the impact on accuracy the carbon build up had on my rifle I was always shooting 1/2 MOA or better (usually better) and progressed to over 1 MOA, and the first group after cleaning was 3/8 MOA or so with a few others in the same general size and the next trip to the range it was doing the same. Actually the 2nd trip BM11 shot a 0.600" 5 round group @ 275yds, and I shot one similar. So based on what I have seen with my own rifle I say clean that shit off and keep it clean!
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
the military did a study on barrel devices.
The info i got from it was.
If you put anything in front of the muzzle do not recess the crown.
They found that the (recessed)crown was eroded faster due to the back pressure, turbulence and stuff bouncing around there.
I have also seen accuracy fall off with recessed crowns filled with carbon inside a muzzle brake. Then come back after only cleaning the crown .
the military did a study on barrel devices.
The info i got from it was.
If you put anything in front of the muzzle do not recess the crown.
They found that the (recessed)crown was eroded faster due to the back pressure, turbulence and stuff bouncing around there.
I have also seen accuracy fall off with recessed crowns filled with carbon inside a muzzle brake. Then come back after only cleaning the crown .
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim See</div><div class="ubbcode-body">stick a brass rod thru the ports and hit the rod with a hammer to brake it lose, if it is lock tited you may have to apply some heat first to losen it.
It is likly not carbon build up at all. look at the leading edge of the thru holes and see if a bur is rolling into the clearance hole thus constricting it. This may cause your ,020" clearance to be unconcentric and it may now only be .005-.010"
Brakes made out of soft, unhardened material will do this more than hardened brakes. If you have a bore scope it is real easy to see. </div></div>
hey jim!!! your 4 port muscle brake is working awesome on my 300wm. i am 100% totally satisfied and recommend to all my buds. take care and thanks again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim See</div><div class="ubbcode-body">stick a brass rod thru the ports and hit the rod with a hammer to brake it lose, if it is lock tited you may have to apply some heat first to losen it.
It is likly not carbon build up at all. look at the leading edge of the thru holes and see if a bur is rolling into the clearance hole thus constricting it. This may cause your ,020" clearance to be unconcentric and it may now only be .005-.010"
Brakes made out of soft, unhardened material will do this more than hardened brakes. If you have a bore scope it is real easy to see. </div></div>
hey jim!!! your 4 port muscle brake is working awesome on my 300wm. i am 100% totally satisfied and recommend to all my buds. take care and thanks again.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Well I pulled that mother trucker off and the crown was packed full and then some. My brake is in the ultrasonic cleaner with some brass. I cleaned up the carbon with Hoppe's and a brass brush. Taking it out tomorrow with the brake off to see how it goes.
Now when I pulled that brake off there was what looks to be a plastic ring that was at the end of the threads, non crown side. What is that and do I need it and if so where do I find one?
Well I pulled that mother trucker off and the crown was packed full and then some. My brake is in the ultrasonic cleaner with some brass. I cleaned up the carbon with Hoppe's and a brass brush. Taking it out tomorrow with the brake off to see how it goes.
Now when I pulled that brake off there was what looks to be a plastic ring that was at the end of the threads, non crown side. What is that and do I need it and if so where do I find one?
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
The stuff you see on the threads is probably loctite.
The stuff you see on the threads is probably loctite.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Excessive torque will certainly constrict the last bit of your bore. I just ran into that yesterday and it can cause serious accuracy issues.
How do I know it was constricted? The range rod bushing I used was picked by the go, no go method. Once the braked was clocked it would not go back into the barrel for a final visual QC check. Loosened the brake and it slid right in. Tighten it back up and it will not go. I had to lap .0015" off the mating surface of the brake to get it to clock up with a bit less torque and now the precision ground bushing fits like it does without the brake.
Excessive torque will certainly constrict the last bit of your bore. I just ran into that yesterday and it can cause serious accuracy issues.
How do I know it was constricted? The range rod bushing I used was picked by the go, no go method. Once the braked was clocked it would not go back into the barrel for a final visual QC check. Loosened the brake and it slid right in. Tighten it back up and it will not go. I had to lap .0015" off the mating surface of the brake to get it to clock up with a bit less torque and now the precision ground bushing fits like it does without the brake.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
I'm a mechanic by trade or should I say retired now but for 30+ years. There was loctite on the threads but this looks like and feels like a very very thin piece of plastic. If that was on a car I would say that it looked like some kind of seal. I suppose I could take a pic of it and post it.
I'm a mechanic by trade or should I say retired now but for 30+ years. There was loctite on the threads but this looks like and feels like a very very thin piece of plastic. If that was on a car I would say that it looked like some kind of seal. I suppose I could take a pic of it and post it.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excessive torque will certainly constrict the last bit of your bore. I just ran into that yesterday and it can cause serious accuracy issues.
How do I know it was constricted? The range rod bushing I used was picked by the go, no go method. Once the braked was clocked it would not go back into the barrel for a final visual QC check. Loosened the brake and it slid right in. Tighten it back up and it will not go. I had to lap .0015" off the mating surface of the brake to get it to clock up with a bit less torque and now the precision ground bushing fits like it does without the brake.
</div></div>
Interesting thanks for that bit of info. I'm gonna get my big ole butt dressed and loaded up and go shoot that thing with the brake off it here in just a few minutes.
BTW is there a torque spec or is snug good enough.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excessive torque will certainly constrict the last bit of your bore. I just ran into that yesterday and it can cause serious accuracy issues.
How do I know it was constricted? The range rod bushing I used was picked by the go, no go method. Once the braked was clocked it would not go back into the barrel for a final visual QC check. Loosened the brake and it slid right in. Tighten it back up and it will not go. I had to lap .0015" off the mating surface of the brake to get it to clock up with a bit less torque and now the precision ground bushing fits like it does without the brake.
</div></div>
Interesting thanks for that bit of info. I'm gonna get my big ole butt dressed and loaded up and go shoot that thing with the brake off it here in just a few minutes.
BTW is there a torque spec or is snug good enough.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
If your not going into battle then snug is good. If going to battle/competition a little more torque and even some blue loctite might be appropriate.
If your not going into battle then snug is good. If going to battle/competition a little more torque and even some blue loctite might be appropriate.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Well, its back to shooting sub minute. I replaced the glass just to be sure(actually the MK4 that was on it went on the new 26" SPS and this on got a 4-14 Wotac(actually a decent scope so far). So after working the zero to 200 yards I was constant with 42gr RE15 and 175 SMK's. I've been shooting with 168 Nosler CC's and they even sucked today but the matchkings were grouping very nice. I screwed the brake back on by hand and the groups went away with all weight bullets.
So how do I fix this? Oh, can I lap a bit off the end of the brake so it time correctly without having to reef on it to tighten? I'm not going to send it back to Mark for the work because shipping to and from his place is spendy. I'll just get a local to do whatever is necessary unless the barrel has to come off then I will send it to him(its an FNAR and not many have the jigs to get the barrel off these).
Mark if your reading this I have some other work on the new 700 I need you to do and I'm very please with everything you have done for me so far. This thing is just being a finicky bastard.
Well, its back to shooting sub minute. I replaced the glass just to be sure(actually the MK4 that was on it went on the new 26" SPS and this on got a 4-14 Wotac(actually a decent scope so far). So after working the zero to 200 yards I was constant with 42gr RE15 and 175 SMK's. I've been shooting with 168 Nosler CC's and they even sucked today but the matchkings were grouping very nice. I screwed the brake back on by hand and the groups went away with all weight bullets.
So how do I fix this? Oh, can I lap a bit off the end of the brake so it time correctly without having to reef on it to tighten? I'm not going to send it back to Mark for the work because shipping to and from his place is spendy. I'll just get a local to do whatever is necessary unless the barrel has to come off then I will send it to him(its an FNAR and not many have the jigs to get the barrel off these).
Mark if your reading this I have some other work on the new 700 I need you to do and I'm very please with everything you have done for me so far. This thing is just being a finicky bastard.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beanland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hold the muzzle on mine in the ultrasonic cleaner for about 60 seconds and it comes out looking brand new. </div></div>
Now I might actually be interested in giving that a try.
I need to get a cheap ultrasonic from Harbor Freight anyway.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beanland</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hold the muzzle on mine in the ultrasonic cleaner for about 60 seconds and it comes out looking brand new. </div></div>
Now I might actually be interested in giving that a try.
I need to get a cheap ultrasonic from Harbor Freight anyway.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
As long as you dont have your device on with lock-tite, just get it snug and you wont have a problem ever getting it off, or keeping it on.
I install and remove mine with a hollow brass rod, and clean my crown with an AP brush (tooth-brush) every 500 or so.
As long as you dont have your device on with lock-tite, just get it snug and you wont have a problem ever getting it off, or keeping it on.
I install and remove mine with a hollow brass rod, and clean my crown with an AP brush (tooth-brush) every 500 or so.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
In 12+ years I've yet to "squish" a muzzle with a brake.
It would suggest to me that if you can, then perhaps one should look long and hard at the thread diameter AND pitch.
Pull the brake. Note the clock position prior to removal. Scrub your crown with a soft bristle brush, put some grease on the threads, reinstall, and move on with your life.
Loctite is not required if the thread fit is right.
Good luck.
C.
In 12+ years I've yet to "squish" a muzzle with a brake.
It would suggest to me that if you can, then perhaps one should look long and hard at the thread diameter AND pitch.
Pull the brake. Note the clock position prior to removal. Scrub your crown with a soft bristle brush, put some grease on the threads, reinstall, and move on with your life.
Loctite is not required if the thread fit is right.
Good luck.
C.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Well I have one right here right now I can do it on at will. It is a 338 Win Mag .630” barrel diameter with a 9/16-24 thread brake on it. Every rifle we have done in the past has always shot better after installing a brake so I can't tell you if this negatively affects accuracy or we just never caught it before. I regularly show customers the precision that goes into their rifles and have checked them right in front of them if not did the whole install while they watched. Never had one choke up that I know of until a couple days ago. I never used routinely look for it but I will from now on.
I agree on not using loctite. Never had an issue yet with just never sieze on my own. I have pulled more than a few brakes that were glued on though. I have read on here of guys loosening them up during extended shooting and they were using stuff called Rock Set? and stuff like that. That's the only reason I mentioned it.
Get this. I never used to really believe fluting a barrel loosened up the bore interior until a 300 Wby Accumark landed on my bench for accuracy issues. 4” groups. I cleaned and bore scoped the barrel. Chamber was nice and square. Every rifling is uniform full length of the barrel. Bore was smooth. No tool marks or gouges like I usually find in Remington factory barrels. Throat was good. Crown was perfect. Busted out a Neco lead slug and greased it up. Put it in from the chamber and pushed it through with my brass rod. Nice and tight from the throat out as it should but as soon as it hit the area where the fluting started it went loose and slid easy until right where the fluting quit. Then she was nice and snug on out through the muzzle. The rifle shot 1/2 MOA until another smith installed a brake on it. I have not dialed it in on the lathe to check the run-out yet but a preliminary check revealed the brake is not on there straight. The range rod just barely passes light on one side and is swimming huge clearance on the other side. Looks to be an easy fix but this barrel is a first for me with the relaxed bore under the flutes.
Well I have one right here right now I can do it on at will. It is a 338 Win Mag .630” barrel diameter with a 9/16-24 thread brake on it. Every rifle we have done in the past has always shot better after installing a brake so I can't tell you if this negatively affects accuracy or we just never caught it before. I regularly show customers the precision that goes into their rifles and have checked them right in front of them if not did the whole install while they watched. Never had one choke up that I know of until a couple days ago. I never used routinely look for it but I will from now on.
I agree on not using loctite. Never had an issue yet with just never sieze on my own. I have pulled more than a few brakes that were glued on though. I have read on here of guys loosening them up during extended shooting and they were using stuff called Rock Set? and stuff like that. That's the only reason I mentioned it.
Get this. I never used to really believe fluting a barrel loosened up the bore interior until a 300 Wby Accumark landed on my bench for accuracy issues. 4” groups. I cleaned and bore scoped the barrel. Chamber was nice and square. Every rifling is uniform full length of the barrel. Bore was smooth. No tool marks or gouges like I usually find in Remington factory barrels. Throat was good. Crown was perfect. Busted out a Neco lead slug and greased it up. Put it in from the chamber and pushed it through with my brass rod. Nice and tight from the throat out as it should but as soon as it hit the area where the fluting started it went loose and slid easy until right where the fluting quit. Then she was nice and snug on out through the muzzle. The rifle shot 1/2 MOA until another smith installed a brake on it. I have not dialed it in on the lathe to check the run-out yet but a preliminary check revealed the brake is not on there straight. The range rod just barely passes light on one side and is swimming huge clearance on the other side. Looks to be an easy fix but this barrel is a first for me with the relaxed bore under the flutes.
Re: Cleaning a crown with a brake
Well I've been in contact with the smith and he believes that the break change the barrel harmonics and has offered some solutions. I opted to not to go the route of changing out parts just yet, and will work on some loads that are not in the same weight bullets as before. I also ordered a threaded cap and may just leave the break off the gun(my daughter who shoots with me doesn't want it to go back on, lol).
Well I've been in contact with the smith and he believes that the break change the barrel harmonics and has offered some solutions. I opted to not to go the route of changing out parts just yet, and will work on some loads that are not in the same weight bullets as before. I also ordered a threaded cap and may just leave the break off the gun(my daughter who shoots with me doesn't want it to go back on, lol).
