Suppressors Cleaning a suppressor - Pics Added

[johngfoster]

Any good ideas on how to clean an Ops Inc 12th model? I tried shooting some sub-sonic 22lr through my mk12 mod0 and now have a mess. I blew it out with some PMC 223 after I was done, but there is a LOT of lead build-up on the baffles. Some of the baffles look like they have had a few spots welded off/damaged, but I can't see anything that looks like a baffle strike--just severe pitting/erosion in places. For those that haven't done this with a centerfire suppressor, DONT!!! Bonehead move on my part. Thought I could get away with it if I shot some full-power stuff through it when I was done. WRONG!!! Now to get it cleaned up, if I can. I'm afraid the damage that's been done I'll have to live with, but I'd like to prevent more from happening if I can.

PS, yes it was quiet like a pellet gun with Aguilla 60gr SSS. From 15 ft away, all I could hear was the action cycling and the bullet striking the target, but I digress.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

You can use "The Dip" (acetic acid) aka the "Soak and Pray" method as long as there isn't any aluminum involved.
The acetic acid reacts with the lead and forms lead acetate which is very hazardous.

WARNING!!!
This is a very dangerous mixture and extreme caution should be exercised.
Contact with it will cause permanent physical harm.

"The Dip" is Hydrogen Peroxide and White Vinegar mixed in a 50/50 ratio.
Soak and agitate occasionally until bubbles cease to form.
Rinse and then repeat as needed.
(You will notice black particulates and the acid will take on a light blue color.)

All of the used acid should be treated as HAZMAT and disposed of accordingly.
Do not attempt if you are not familiar with how to safely handle these types of materials.

FWIW,

I use an SRT Universal Typhoon can on my AR and several 22s.
It has seen several thousand rounds of rimfire ammunition on an SBR and the only issues I have had is leading of the mount and flash suppressor.
All other contaminates are blown out of the can after about 60-90 rounds of 5.56mm
(Have verified this with a bore scope.)
I attribute this to the design of the Aztech baffles that Doug uses.

 

[STLTACTICAL]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Might be a good idea to call Ops, better to spend a little now to have it resolved the right way rather than ruin a real nice can.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Could you clarify "very dangerous"? Toxic? Lead ingestion? I doubt it would be explosive, but just checking. What would be a safe way to dispose of these chemicals? I assume pouring it down the drain into a septic tank that is in the vacinity of a well would be a bad idea. Thanks. I'll try to post some pics of the baffles if I can later.

 

[KYS]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

You shot 22 thru a 12th model in 5.56 or 308?

Ya I would suggest not doing that. You never really want to subject a centerfire can to a rimfire cans abuse. 22lr is hard on suppressors when they are not designed to take it.

I would find someone that owns an ultrasonic cleaner. The acid mix is dangerous and a little extreme for what you are wanting to do. You can soak it in brake cleaner or something of that nature. I have even heard of guys having good success with denatured alcohol mix. When your done blow out the suppressor with a compressed air hose. Get all of that stuff out before you fire it again. Stand it end on end for about an hour after you blow it out, should be good to go after that. When you put it away for the night shoot some oil down in it to help prevent storage rust and fight that pitting and damage you caused with the 22lr.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could you clarify "very dangerous"? Toxic? Lead ingestion? I doubt it would be explosive, but just checking. What would be a safe way to dispose of these chemicals? I assume pouring it down the drain into a septic tank that is in the vicinity of a well would be a bad idea. Thanks. I'll try to post some pics of the baffles if I can later. </div></div>
Very Dangerous: Lead Poisoning & a Carcinogen.
(Be careful of any vapors or splashing as well.)
You can take it to anyplace that disposes of car batteries and tell them that it is battery acid out of a car battery.
My local recycling center that is 5 min down the road takes it without any hassle.
Just make sure it is in a clearly marked container.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but you should be ok.
It does seem odd that you have that much leading with only a limited number of rounds though.

I asked the MFG ahead of time before I shot .22lr through mine and was assured that it would be ok.
Baffle designs can make a huge difference in how things can build up.
The stepped baffle design of the SRT cans only allows a small amount of crap to collect before the concussion of the high pressure rounds knock it all off.

When in doubt, call the MFG and ask.
You would be surprised how far a MFG will go for you as long as you are honest.
Good luck and stay safe.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You shot 22 thru a 12th model in 5.56 or 308?

Ya I would suggest not doing that. You never really want to subject a centerfire can to a rimfire cans abuse. 22lr is hard on suppressors when they are not designed to take it.

I would find someone that owns an ultrasonic cleaner. The acid mix is dangerous and a little extreme for what you are wanting to do. You can soak it in brake cleaner or something of that nature. I have even heard of guys having good success with denatured alcohol mix. When your done blow out the suppressor with a compressed air hose. Get all of that stuff out before you fire it again. Stand it end on end for about an hour after you blow it out, should be good to go after that. When you put it away for the night shoot some oil down in it to help prevent storage rust and fight that pitting and damage you caused with the 22lr. </div></div>

It was a 5.56 12th model. I've been thinking of designing a rimfire can that would mount on the Ops Inc muzzel brake, but be such that you could take it appart and clean it. Only problem is, I don't have any experience with metal work/machining. No equipment either. But this may just be the impetus to get me to the local CC and take a course. Could be a fun project. Unless someone else has already developed a rimfire can that mounts on the Ops Inc system.

Thanks, Dr. Phil. I'll have to approach that with caution. Don't want cancer. Are there any other cleaning solutions one could use in an ultrasonic cleaner that would not produce a toxic mix (Lead is toxic, I know, so ???).

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Beware of ultrasonic as well.
They have a tendency to weaken / break welds.
(Think of it bending the metal back and forth on a microscopic scale about a billion times.)

Good Luck and stay safe.

P.S.
The pitting of the blast baffle is normal on a 5.56mm can.
It is un-burnt powder moving out of the muzzle at 3,000fps striking the baffle that does that.
(Extra crap in the muzzle device and blast chamber doesn't help though.)

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

The term "blast baffle" does it pertain only to the 1st baffle, or any of the baffles? The first baffle looks fine to me. It seems to be the middle baffles that are affected. End cap is fine too and no bulges in the body.

All told I've run less than 350 rounds of all types through the can, about 160 Aguilla 60gr SSS and 10 40gr SS which didn't feed worth crap.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Blast Baffel is just the first one, but if you are running an OPS INC Brake, that takes most of the hit.

From what you describe, I would just mount the can and shoot.
Check it after 100-150 round to see how thinks look and to make sure that all is well.
No harm no foul.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Just shoot the damn thing.

The heat and pressure generated by full power centerfire rounds at a high rate of fire should be more than enough to vaporize any lead deposited in the can.

If you are REALLY worried about it, call the MFG and talk to them. My experience echos Dr. Phil. I have seen manufacturers take care of some interesting "problems" that weren't even their fault WHEN/IF you approach them in a polite and truthful manner.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Here are some pics of the baffle now:

Is this normal? Or is this due to shooting 22lr through it? I don't want to make this worse if I can help it.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

You should be fine. I have about 5K rounds through my 12th and there is a little pitting and carbon on the edges of the baffles. If anything, your brake is going to take the most amount of abuse.

My Ops Inc brake after I cleaned with with stainless steel media.

 

[KYS]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

You will be fine. Keep shooting, Oil lightly after use.

 

[737shark]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

DO NOT USE HYDROGEN PEROXIDE TO CLEAN YOUR SUPPRESSOR


IT CAN CAUSE HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT!!!!!!!!!!


IT CAN EAT ALL THE STEEL IT CAN CORRODE TITANTIUM TOO!!!!!

 

[KYS]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

I was just about to post the warning for hydrogen peroxide.
I always used brake dust cleaner and then blew it out with a compressor. But then I got an ultrasonic cleaner and use it every 1000 rounds. So you do not need to clean a centerfire can a lot.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Thanks for the warnings. I have not yet subjected my 12th model to "The Dip". I understand that it is designed to be "self-cleaning" when used with centerfire 22 cal ammunition. My questions then are: the pitting that I see on the baffles, is this normal for centerfire usage, or is it a result from firing the 60gr SSS 22lr through it? Also, if using the can for both centerfire and rimfire, do I need to clean it or is shooting centerfire ammunition through it afterwards sufficient; and if so, how much? My main concern is the apparent damage I see to the baffles, and I don't want to make this worse. Again, the damage is to the middle baffles, not the first one/blast baffle. Thanks for all the replies so far.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

..

For those still shooting Steel CENTERFIRE cans? Flush with either denatured alcohol or take the suppressor and pour in a little DAWN dish soap, put some water in there, shake, shake and then let it sit....then blow it out. A good centerfire can WILL NOT require cleaning.

This?

1. Rimfire does not do damage like this. This is .223 related. Rimfire.....rubs. Chunks? .223. This is NOT RIMFIRE DAMAGE.

Do you have pitting on the exterior of the barrel where the can covers? Over the barrel designs (Hiram's original design or the commercially designs from the 70's through the mid 80's) those that redirect gas, backwards over the barrel have real consequences. Not the least of which is redirection of gas rearward, hot gas filled with propellant waste, has its dwell time increased, heat increase in all the wrong places, much of it trapped. Does the design work, yes. Length was (past tense) the issue back then, not any more.

Do you shoot fast strings? Full auto? Frangible?

My guess is that which you see has been in there for quite some time and only after shooting rims did you feel you had to look. My advice, just don't look and worry about it if the normal rounds start to sound different.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

The damage looks to be normal for a 5.56 can.
Rimfire ammo won't do that.
All the .22lr ammo will do is cause the lead vapor to condense on the inside of the can and leave unburnt powder.

Never had to clean any of mine.
Only thing that needed attention were flash hiders and mounts.

FWIW
The only thing that I have ever used "The Dip" on has been flash hiders.
I consider them to be expendable and didn't care what happened to them.

Additionally, "The Dip" reacts with the most active metal first.
The most active metals in a suppressor are lead, then aluminum, copper, and then steel & titanium.
This principle is used in the maritime industry to minimize corrosion on boats by using zinc bars as sacrificial anodes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrificial_anode

Overall, "The Dip" is considered to be a last resort process and should not be used for routine cleaning.
As far as its effects on the welds, I do not have any knowledge of the metallic composition of them,
so I cannot comment on that or Hydrogen Embrittlement.

I know that it is difficult to look at something that you have invested so much time and money into as a maintenance free item,
but just shooting it is usually the best thing to do.
They are like anything else though and do wear with use.
If and when your suppressor requires maintenance, just contact the manufacture and see what needs to be done.
Worst case scenario, the can will need to be rebuilt.
Most suppressor manufactures will rebuild their products for much less than the cost of a new one.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..


Do you have pitting on the exterior of the barrel where the can covers? Over the barrel designs (Hiram's original design or the commercially designs from the 70's through the mid 80's) those that redirect gas, backwards over the barrel have real consequences. Not the least of which is redirection of gas rearward, hot gas filled with propellant waste, has its dwell time increased, heat increase in all the wrong places, much of it trapped. Does the design work, yes. Length was (past tense) the issue back then, not any more.


</div></div>

Ops Inc cans do not direct the gas back onto the barrel.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

..

No doubt.

"(Hiram's original design or the commercially designs from the 70's through the mid 80's)"

But some find that either the rear threads allow for gas to get to the barrel surface. I was curious if he has this issue. In any event covering that part of a barrel, even with a sealed envelope has heat consequences. Its just part of the design impact.

I agree with the "just stop looking and shoot it crowd"

..

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

I HAVE noticed a bit of lead build-up on the muzzle-brake. I carefully scraped it off with a flat screw-driver, which left a really shiny surface that easily buffed out, kinda like pencil lead would. I have not noticed any wear or deposits on the barrel. The only wear I am aware of at the moment is what I can see done to the middle baffles in the can. I scraped off what appeared to be a slight amount of lead build-up at the muzzle of the can around the end-cap, but no apparent damage to the steel. No apparent damage the the blast baffle either. My first instinct when I saw this damage was that it was a baffle-strike, but now I think otherwise. This amount of damage is only after 235 rounds of .223 and 100 rounds of 22lr. Thanks for all the advise and reassurance so far. I think I'll probably just go shoot it and not worry about the damage. I may also just continue to shoot the 22lr if the consensus is that it shouldn't harm things.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Say What?

Let me get this right. This can, the can that you posted, has only ever had 235 rounds of .223 through it and 100 rounds of .22. Is that right? I had no idea.....definately not the .22. But it does raise some interesting questions about the baffle and .223, doesn't it. Gas cutting, on a well designed good quality material baffle, would/should take a minimum 5,000 rounds...minimum. Wear happens, but not like that. IF that round count is correct, we take "normal" gas cutting off the table. If the reflex in this design is dependant of hour glass progressive stack, well then, we lead with this question "is your bore centered?"

In any event..

You are the official winner of the 2010 "Baffling Baffle Award!"
and up on my Wall of Wonders she goes.

Congratulations!

..

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Yeah, barrel is a Douglas SS turned by CLE to SPR profile with a matched/fitted bolt. I'm assuming it is in spec. I was a bit puzzled by this myself. Total of 335 rounds (.223 and 22lr) through the barrel/can)

Edit: love that pic, btw. Gave me a good chuckle.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

..

Then go with the door marked "STLTAC" above.

His advice is sage.

Good luck and please let us all know what you find. The trophy remains your.

 

[Johnny Sasaki]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

What's your barrel twist and what grain ammo are you using/have used with it? I'm no expert, but I heard the wrong grain with the wrong twist will cause tubling of the round and I would assume would cause baffle strikes.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

55gr FMJ PMC Bronze, 55gr FMJ Winchester White Box Value Pack, and in 22lr: 60gr Aguilla SSS and 40gr RSW subsonic HP. Barrel is a 1:7 twist. My current hypothesis is that the 40gr stuff spun up too fast and started to come apart in the suppressor.

MV of the 60gr SSS was around 850fps, and the 40gr SS was around 930fps.

 

[WileyG]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

I'd email that pic to Ron at Ops Inc and get his opinion as to what caused it.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

I emailed both Ron at Ops Inc and Steve at ADCO about this. Both seem to agree that as long as accuracy is not degraded, it is probably nothing to worry about and to just shoot it. I took it out again today and shot some 75gr TAP FPD and Mk 262 through it. No change to the markings--didn't get worse. Accuracy was also acceptable at about 1" at 100yd with the TAP. Will continue to see if it gets any worse. If so, then Ron has offered to take a look at it. Great customer service for sure.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

I would definitely consider the twist rate of my barrel and pick ammo accordingly in case something had caused that nicked baffle.

I wouldn't shoot anything that was dramatically over or under stabilized.

60 grain .22lr likes a 1/9 or 1/7 twist You may not even want to shoot it in some barrels with a suppressor that has a .261 bore. I know drop is ~3.75 inches at 25 meters when fired from a 16" 1/9 AR barrel- barrels longer than 10" will begin to lower velocity with Aguila SSS. That computes to ~.023" of drop inside the 6" suppressor bore. When you subtract .224 from .261 and divide by 2 you get about .0185" of clearance per side, so that drop would predict baffle contact every time if gas didn't serve to push the bullet toward the center of the bore. That ballistic data came from SSS on a 16" M4 with a KAC M4QD suppressor. With M855 impacting center at 25m I would have to hold my 600M M855 dope to get SSS to impact center. That's 15minutes of elevation divided by 4 to get 3.75" at 25meters. Not really a problem for the KAC can- it has a .037" clearance per side and the can droops a bit off the mount, so it was probably near dead center of the .300" bore. The round may be traveling 650FPS for all I know I never chronod it in a 16" AR with a gas port and chamber adapter playing into the equation. In my 6" 10/22 rifled 1/9 chronos 810FPS. I do know I could regularly see the bullet in flight to the target at ranges 35-50meters with my 8x Leupold from the 16" barrel.

40 grain .22lr guns are often rifled 1/16

55 grain and up to 77grain in 5.56 works with 1/7 barrels.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

Interesting note:

This thread prompted me to try and soak my SRT Typhoon in a hot soapy sink just for the hell of it.
Soaked for an hour, agitated every 15 minutes, then hit the mount and the inside of the blast baffle with a toothbrush.
Didn't notice much difference in the appearance, nor was the water very dirty at all.

I let the suppressor dry over night and decided to put ten rounds down range the next day after work.
Fired 10 rounds and noticed that there wasn't any "Gas Face" to be had.
Picked up the brass and it looked like it was shot out of a bolt gun.
Clean as could be.
(Normally my brass is black after shooting suppressed.)

I don't have any logical explanation for this phenomenon other than the lack of lubricant that I usually put on the threads of the mount.
Thought I would share this since it seems to go along with this thread nicely.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

..

Now try it with DAWN and pipping hot water. Shake it up, let it sit for a while and then blow it out with air.

..

 

[KYS]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting note:

This thread prompted me to try and soak my SRT Typhoon in a hot soapy sink just for the hell of it.
Soaked for an hour, agitated every 15 minutes, then hit the mount and the inside of the blast baffle with a toothbrush.
Didn't notice much difference in the appearance, nor was the water very dirty at all.

I let the suppressor dry over night and decided to put ten rounds down range the next day after work.
Fired 10 rounds and noticed that there wasn't any "Gas Face" to be had.
Picked up the brass and it looked like it was shot out of a bolt gun.
Clean as could be.
(Normally my brass is black after shooting suppressed.)

I don't have any logical explanation for this phenomenon other than the lack of <span style="color: #FF0000">lubricant that I usually put on the threads of the mount.</span>
Thought I would share this since it seems to go along with this thread nicely.
</div></div>

You should not put lube on your mount. It can cause the suppressor to loosen up during fire. The point of lube is to keep things moving with as less friction as possible. You don't want that on your suppressor and mount. Most manufacturers of suppressors caution against such actions.

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

The Atlas Universal Mount is not your standard type.

The lubricant I use is for the threads under the locking ring.
I use anti-sieze thined out with a bit of mineral spirits.
There is no way for that sucker to shoot loose...

(These a images from the SRT web site. I don't lube my FH.)

 

[PLeighton]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

Now try it with DAWN and pipping hot water. Shake it up, let it sit for a while and then blow it out with air.

.. </div></div>
Do tell...
What does this concoction render?

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Cleaning a suppressor

..

If your suppressor has been enjoying good quality ammo, if your suppressor is properly prepared, front purging, low pressure, not capturing all the debris and crude...but blowing it out properly. Then, those suppressors can be quickly and efficiently cleaned with this solution. Far too many cans are still designed like a Sionics, primitive baffles, poor jetting, poor chamber sizing, poor flow, those cans cake and cake badly. Almost anybody can create a quiet can using higher envelope volume and higher pressure entrapment. It has consequences. In good cans, I have seen some use this very same mixture (Dawn Dishsoap and hot water) and leave it in their suppressors overnight, only to pour out a dark coal like mix the next morning. Rendered effectively and safely cleaner. This very same mix and the same result was described again to me a month ago by a gentlemen who can legitimately claim that he ran 45,000 (forty five thousand) .22 rounds through his can professionally and cleaned it only this way.

I, personally? I, do not clean my centerfire cans. I shoot only the best quality rimfire (plated, never subsonic, high velocity) and use the denatured route rarely.

..