Range Report Cold Bore shots.....

[RussW1911]

OK, so I have been watching all the back and forth banter going on here lately over the "CB Deviation".

I was asked to go out and shoot and record my findings..... easily done.

This morning:
86 degrees
30.76 InHG
3-5 mph from the right
4700 ft ASL
39% humidity

Sun, directly in my face and a clean white target. 801 yards by my Leica Geovids.

My point of aim was directly level with the CCB shot, but about 4 inches to the right of center.

First pic is the target untouched

Second pic is marked.
Red: COLD CLEAN BORE
Green: #2
Upper Blue: #3
Lower Blue: #4
Yellow: #5 (yeah, I missed that wind gust)

Through the scope, the sun was killin' me

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

So what did you learn if anything ?

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

BTW, I did wait for the wind to die off, but never made a scope adjustment as requested by one of the members

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

LowLight, the only thing I did was reinforce what i have been saying. With a quality barrel and proper technique, there is no deviation.

The only deviation I see is my lack of win reading skills. The target is 15"x25" and well within MOA vertically.

I will stand behind what i have said. CCB shots are in the head of the nut behind the trigger.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

1. that a CCB through his setup will still produce a center mass hit

2. through my setup a CCB is 4" high and 2" left at 500.

3. my remedy was:

a. shoot a 2 foulers before setting out for serious shooting
b. clean and let rifle sit for a 7 to 10 minute cooling before each
shot so my final zero is based on a CCB and not a fouoled barrel
c. if your POI of your CCB is consistant, record it in data
book and adjust for it properly when shooting a string
d. pay better attention to wind drift

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

TOP, I have no idea who you are or what your setup is.

That said, if you are shooting a quality tubed rifle and are missing with you first shot, you have a CB trigger finger. I can take out 5 other rifles and prove the same thing with different shooters on each rifle.

NOW, if I take a guy out who hasn't shot for a while, we will have a deviation. If I let them warm up on a rifle and then fire one for a CCB, we have no deviation.

It's a mental thing.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

true, also depends on what your doing..."hunting" or target

obviously a hunting situation, there is usually no "warm up shots beforehand"

target or competition usually allows some "warm up time" either on or off the range the comp is being held

CB trigger finger is a valid variable, depends on the above two examples

best way to elimante that variable is to rerun your CCB test with the rifle clamp in a rest to take out the CB trigger finger variable

whether it's my CB trigger finger or my clean and cold barrel, the POI of such is consistant enough to predict whether it's my quality tubed stuff or my factory tube.

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

This rifle is the one I use for all the matches. There is no shooting or warming up at a Tac match. Same as a hunting situation. same thing applies in both situation.

There was no warm up this morning. That rifle was cleaned last night. Granted i don't strip the barrel completely, just knock the carbon out. No other rifles were shot, no sighters, no foulers.

These deviations are the nut behind the bolt.

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

Clamping in a rest will do nothing as my loads were developed by me on the ground. A rest that inhibits the natural recoil of the weapon would prove only that the rifle isn't accurate like that.

Why would I want to take out "me" as the variable? I already know I didn't have a Cold Bore Trigger finger.

 

[Graham]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. through my setup a CCB is 4" high and 2" left at 500...
...clean and let rifle sit for a 7 to 10 minute cooling before each shot so my final zero is based on a CCB and not a fouoled barrel.</div></div>The four inches high part I will reserve judgment on. The two inches left I don't yet buy. The rest I just plain don't get. Do your first shots of the day look something like this pic, but when viewed upside down?:

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
target or competition usually allows some "warm up time" either on or off the range the comp is being held

</div></div>

Not the fun ones! Most here when referring to "matches" mean Practical Precision type comps, where there's no warmup, and cold bore shots count heavy on the points spread (however, more and more members are shooting F-Class which is just NRA Highpower that lets us play with our scoped sticks).

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

the rest would take out the human element (error) of a cb trigger finger, bring any load, equipment, and recoil to an even keel. any deviations can then be objectivally recorded on the mechanical side, without human element, to come up with a factual conclusion. if the introduction of your human element produces the same results, bravo.

didn't realize that wiping the excess carbon out of the barrel constituted a "clean barrel"
as it didn't at langley, benning, perry, or aberdeen.

i withdraw from topic as my $.02 isnt worth the pissing contest....

 

[Graham]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i withdraw from topic as my $.02 isnt worth the pissing contest....</div></div>That picture is of my AE on a cold bore, shot by Lowlight so that I know the rifle does the same thing in more competent hands. Lindy's shoots the opposite of mine: high instead of low.

If your rifle is really doing what you say, then your first 100 meter target of the day should look like the one I posted, but upside down.

What's happening is that people are testing what you are saying. It's not a pissing contest; it's how we learn.

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

LOL, there is no reason to strip a barrel down to the bare metal. It silly at best for anyone but a bench rester.

Lets put it this way. I cleaned out all the carbon from my barrel, I don't subscribe to the perfectly clean theory. matter of fact, this rifle isn't due for a cleaning for ATLEAST 300 more rounds, but I cleaned it for the sake of proving a point.

You remove yourself from a topic because you can't prove a point.

What part of what I said is confusing.....

If you take my rifle and shoot it off a bench or from a machine, it will not be accurate, not only will it not fire to the same place, the groups go to hell. Now if I were to do load development and zeroing from said rest, that might prove something..... not in the stars for this guy. I haven't shot from a bench in years.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

"You remove yourself from a topic because you can't prove a point."

... definatley my last imput,

1. didn't realize your term of a clean bore is just swabbing, my bad.

2. one, including myself, cannot conclusively conduct a test of a subject without eliminating variables, human error included, which is where the rest comes into play

3. "...take my rifle and shoot it off a bench or from a machine, it will not be accurate, not only will it not fire to the same place, the groups go to hell." i guess i don't know enough to conclude that a mechanical device operated in a controlled environment and eliminating as many varibles as possible can lead to an objective result. am i to assume that the testing facilities of those mentioned previously, and sierra, hornady, barnes, and all ammo / rifle manufactures don't use benches, rests, remote trigger actuaters and so on to test / gather data on the products they offer?

i realize that most of us are highly trained and skilled shooters. however, the human element is a variable that can effect the most simple of tests and allow conjecture to sway the results no matter how skilled that shooter is.

i'm a good driver and had never had an auto accident. does this mean that i am 100% sure i'm not going to wreck the next trip out the driveway....no.

taking out the human factor, points more to what the rifle is doing when subjected to given parameters without contamination (except of corse for wind, temp. etc.)

my $.02 was a compliment to the original poster on his setup to have that CCB placed in a center mass hit, and to supplement that those of us that are not that fortunate, a few options to compensate for similar CCB deviations that has worked for me....which is what i have learned.

i honestly can't explain nor understand how your (or anyone's) groups can get worse or a rifle can become less accurate from a benchrest as it should only multiply the amount of accuracy your rifle is capable of without the all the inconsistancies a non mechanical metric (human beings) can add, no matter how skilled.

the 2" left on my CCB, could be due to a slight cant in crosshairs, spin drift, or if you you really want to get technical, coreolous effect (probably spelled it wrong) or a combination of all of them. but it is a consistant POI on my CCB which with any constant, can be anticipated and adjusted for. that's with a completely clean (as far as i can get it)barrel from a bench rest. when i just swab the carbon out, it's not so dramitc. it's there, it's real, my results, your results subject to differ. i wish i had a lazer temp gun take the temp of the barrel to give the "cold" portion more creedence and baseline, but i don't. guess that'll have to stay a variable, and sit 5 to 10 minutes and "assume" the barrel returned to the temp of the first shot and that the expansion of the metal barrel subsided.

i belive that proves my point, this is obviously going way off topic, and sorry that was "$.04"

 

[Graham]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">taking out the human factor, points more to what the rifle is doing when subjected to given parameters without contamination (except of corse for wind, temp. etc.)</div></div>Knowing your cold bore zero allows you to replicate the cold bore shot. Where the rifle shoots from a machine rest is not relevant unless you shoot all your cold bores from a machine rest. And, news flash: with your rifle there's likely no measurable deviation.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the 2" left on my CCB, could be due to a slight cant in crosshairs, spin drift, or if you you really want to get technical, coreolous effect (probably spelled it wrong) or a combination of all of them.</div></div>Nope. Really; not.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...i wish i had a lazer temp gun take the temp of the barrel to give the "cold" portion more creedence and baseline, but i don't. guess that'll have to stay a variable, and sit 5 to 10 minutes and "assume" the barrel returned to the temp of the first shot and that the expansion of the metal barrel subsided.</div></div>Now you are making things up.

Are you saying that your POI measurably changes as the barrel warms? If so, how do you shoot a group?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

RG,

With your issue, and because the rounds clearly "walk" in a some what straight line, I am beginning to think its a threading issue, and how the barrel was actually torqued to the receiver. My AE is dead on, and its been pulled apart and rebarreled by GAP, so I have feeling it's something there when rifles walk. Either off threads or something.

As well, heat, with a good rifle is essentially meaningless... as noted.
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ps, ignore the mistakes, I was being a bit sloppy, its my day off.

 

[RussW1911]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

3. "...take my rifle and shoot it off a bench or from a machine, it will not be accurate, not only will it not fire to the same place, the groups go to hell." i guess i don't know enough to conclude that a mechanical device operated in a controlled environment and eliminating as many varibles as possible can lead to an objective result. am i to assume that the testing facilities of those mentioned previously, and sierra, hornady, barnes, and all ammo / rifle manufactures don't use benches, rests, remote trigger actuaters and so on to test / gather data on the products they offer?
</div></div>

Your telling me that you work up a load from a machine rest and then fire it from the prone or sticks or however it is you choose to fire that weapon and it shoots to the same point of impact with the same accuracy? Your a fool if you expect anyone with a clue to believe that. If you shoot in a controlled environment, all the time, like the manufacturers you mentioned that is a totally different animal.

The whole point of this "test" was that I was challenged to go shoot 5 shots from a Cold Clean Bore. My definition of a clean bore is no powder fowling. A fool cleans to the bare metal and expects roses afterwords. That said, the original request was just for a cold bore shot, I took it one step further, just because.

You have yet to sway any opinions with your comments and using the controlled parameters of an ammo manufacturer holds little water in this type of shooting.

 

[Graham]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With your issue, and because the rounds clearly "walk" in a some what straight line, I am beginning to think its a threading issue, and how the barrel was actually torqued to the receiver.</div></div>You may be correct. Stacey graciously offered to pull the rifle apart, piece by piece, and re-torque everything. He said that AI will make it perfect, and I'm sure they would, but I'm not sure it needs that much work - It already shoots better than almost everything else I have. I would rather, next time I'm at GAP, just have Moon re-torque the barrel. Meanwhile, .3 Mils of elevation on the first shot takes care of everything, every time (as long as I remember to remove it for the second shot).

The GAP that Roach built for me is shooting the cold bore, hot bore, upside down bore, left or right bore, to the same place everytime.

 

[1911.it]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

My GAP Crusader hits POA POI out of a cold bore. It does this on the first shot every time I shoot it. It's comforting to know it can do this should it ever become a necessity.

 

[Grump]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

I still believe the guy who reported elsewhere that of the three rifles he regularly shot, one had a CCB or CB POI different from the group, while the other two did not.

Didn't matter which one he fired first at each outing. Repeated it regularly.

Or was it one was POA/POI and the other two had different CB/CCB POIs? Anyway, the point is that the shooter variable appeared to be fully accounted for, and it was consistent...unless the "good one" had a CCB POI just exactly opposite the "shooter effect".

Except he reported other shooters getting the same results with the three rifles.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still believe the guy who reported elsewhere that of the three rifles he regularly shot, one had a CCB or CB POI different from the group, while the other two did not.

Didn't matter which one he fired first at each outing. Repeated it regularly.

Or was it one was POA/POI and the other two had different CB/CCB POIs? Anyway, the point is that the shooter variable appeared to be fully accounted for, and it was consistent...unless the "good one" had a CCB POI just exactly opposite the "shooter effect".

Except he reported other shooters getting the same results with the three rifles.</div></div>

ya, so he has an issue with that rifle, but not every rifle as an issue with a cold bore shot. It just means you're rifle needs work. They are not supposed to have an issue when you get them, if they do, they are wrong. If you look at Grahams image, the rounds clearly "walked" which they shouldn't be doing. Its not a case of 1 round being out and the rest being in, which is typical showing

 

[uscbigdawg]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

Lowlight - So then if a CBS walks in it's a mechanical issue with the rifle? Still new.

I have my CBS from 100-500 and it's super consistent (so long as I do my part). Definitely not POI, but the rifle takes about 2 rounds to "warm up". After that it's POA/POI.

I hold though that there's only 1 CBS per day.

Rich

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold Bore shots.....

Usually a walk is more than 2 rounds, I would look to the shooter first in that case... but its really hard to see without seeing for myself and testing it accordingly to eliminate variables.