Advanced Marksmanship Cold/Fouled bore

[kentactic]

ive been trying to get the constants of my rifles POI with clean/cold bore and with fouled cold bore aswell as warm bore fouled.

i know the some guys choose to leave there rifle fouled by shooting 5-10rnds and then putting it away so its ready for action and they have one less factor when the shot matters.

i havent gathered enough data to confirm my POI on any of the above bore conditions but i think im on to something.

so far starting cold clean bore shots 1,2,3 seem to group pretty well. but as it heats up and fouls it rises about .2 mills at 100 yards it usually jumps up that .2 mills around shot 7 with a very slow rate of fire.

now first question is can i rely on that .2 mills to be the same at any range?

and second is this likely the effect of the bore heating up or the fouling or both?.. how much influence does either factor have on the POI?

i realize the effects they have are different on every rifle but any clarification on the constants would be appreciated.

kenny

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Are you sure you're not just dealing with "cold shooter"?

Cold Bore Thread

The only way you're going to be able to prove it's the rifle is by test firing it in a solid rest. Only then will you come up with solid data you can rely on.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you sure you're not just dealing with "cold shooter"?

Cold Bore Thread

The only way you're going to be able to prove it's the rifle is by test firing it in a solid rest. Only then will you come up with solid data you can rely on. </div></div>

does temperature of bore not affect point of impact? is it just fouling that affects it? if i left my gun uncleaned over night and then came back the next day and shot the first round PERFECT there would be no shift?

because so far im seeing heat being the factor more then fouling or so it would seem. getting the same result on shots 1-10 as on shots 11-20 with a cooling period in between. also starting shot one on a clean bore. im not going to rule out shooter totally though.

kenny

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Clean bore, yes that can cause a shift especially if you're leaving remnants of cleaning solvents and such in your bore, but you're not only talking about clean bore here. You can also see it if the rifle isn't up to snuff. You may have a bedding issue or improper torquing of your setup. It may be something with your barrel depending on its contour.

If I remember correctly, you're shooting a R700 5R, right? Quite frankly a shift of .2 mil in that short of a firing span is pretty dramatic for that heavy of a barrel. Shoot your groups across a chrono for a 20 shot session to see if you're actually getting an increase in MV. I doubt it, but it's worth a shot

For the real source of the problem though, I'd look in the mirror first and not the equipment. Try a dry fire warm-up when you first get to the range. Do this for at least 20 dry shots first, focusing on the fundamentals.

A shift like this is usually the shooter either settling into their session properly after having a rough start, or they're developing a flinch as they proceed into their firing session.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you hold the rifle the exact same way every time, it doesnt matter if the rifle is cold, hot, clean, dirty or what, it will hit the same spot every time.</div></div>


is this a true statement?

i read the entire thread you posted Redmanss and what i got from it was if you shoot your first shot of the day with a fouled barrel the POI wont shift. if it does its "cold shooter".

if this is true what would be a good cleaning cycle. remove SOME fouling with a brush and solvents every time you shoot or every XX rounds?

im intrigued by this but i consider this good news having to adjust for all these crazy factors sucks... i cant change the laws of physics but i can change my ability's.

but why even run a heavy contour barrel if the heat dosent affect POI? just for the added ridgidity to increase accuracy?

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clean bore, yes that can cause a shift especially if you're leaving remnants of cleaning solvents and such in your bore, but you're not only talking about clean bore here. You can also see it if the rifle isn't up to snuff. You may have a bedding issue or improper torquing of your setup. It may be something with your barrel depending on its contour.

If I remember correctly, you're shooting a R700 5R, right? Quite frankly a shift of .2 mil in that short of a firing span is pretty dramatic for that heavy of a barrel. Shoot your groups across a chrono for a 20 shot session to see if you're actually getting an increase in MV. I doubt it, but it's worth a shot

For the real source of the problem though, I'd look in the mirror first and not the equipment. Try a dry fire warm-up when you first get to the range. Do this for at least 20 dry shots first, focusing on the fundamentals.

A shift like this is usually the shooter either settling into their session properly after having a rough start, or they're developing a flinch as they proceed into their firing session. </div></div>

yeah im shooting an sps tactical on a B&C stock.

i always check torque before each shoot. the action bolts are at 65 in-lbs.

i usually do atleast 3 dry fire shots before i shoot. ill have to bump that number up.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

That statement is <span style="font-style: italic">mostly</span> true. Overly dirty bores can have a significant effect of accuracy, and <span style="font-style: italic">nothing</span> spoken in absolutes is <span style="font-style: italic">ever</span> true

The bullet is still going to go in the direction the barrel is pointed, and you're the one doing the pointing.

Cleaning techniques and beliefs are more polarized than politics, and is why neither get spoken about much around here. Do some research testing on it and develop your own philosophy and standards. But, I'll still give you mine.

I will shoot until accuracy falls off. This can be anywhere from 300-900 rounds, but is usually around the middle of those numbers and it is quite noticeable when it does. I wipe down the bolt and other operating parts after each session, but I don't touch the bore if I'm going to be shooting it again within a week or so.

Yes, increase your dry firing session prior to going hot. Even pause mid-session to dry fire some more. The stuff works.

How are you checking your torque before each session? Are you loosening the action screws and then setting them again (OK), or are you just hitting it with the wrench with them still tight (bad)? Really it isn't necessary to check every shooting session, only every time you pull the action from the stock, unless they're coming loose on you which I would be very concerned about.

Is your action bedded properly in the stock? If not, you might just want to think about having that done.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

yeah i just have the wrench set on 65 in-lbs and make sure it clicks without turning. it hasent been loose yet. but its a new rifle so i like to check to see if anythings loosening up.

the action isnt glass bedded in the stock as of right now.

ill have to play with this some more knowing what i now know. if it proves to be the rifle ill go from there. if it proves to be me then ill have to adress that aswell.

thanks again for all your help Redmanss. your always a big help when you chime in!

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

You don't want to check the torque that way, at least that is what I've read and also what I practice but I'm not an expert on the subject. Every time you do it will tighten it just a little bit more. Do this repeatedly and you're now over torqued on your fastener. Shoot a PM to Kortik (Borka Tools) and he can probably give you some better insight on this as it's his business to know torque.

I've never run one of those stocks, but I've also never seen a stock that couldn't benefit from (or at least not be hurt by) a proper bedding job. Most smiths even recommend bedding on a AICS too. Doesn't cost much either.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

someone needs a logbook.......chat up NOMAD.....he will hook you up!

 

[Graham]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... so far starting cold clean bore shots 1,2,3 seem to group pretty well. but as it heats up and fouls it rises about .2 mills at 100 yards it usually jumps up that .2 mills around shot 7 with a very slow rate of fire.</div></div>That's not a cold-bore shot problem.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't want to check the torque that way, at least that is what I've read and also what I practice but I'm not an expert on the subject. Every time you do it will tighten it just a little bit more. Do this repeatedly and you're now over torqued on your fastener. Shoot a PM to Kortik (Borka Tools) and he can probably give you some better insight on this as it's his business to know torque.

I've never run one of those stocks, but I've also never seen a stock that couldn't benefit from (or at least not be hurt by) a proper bedding job. Most smiths even recommend bedding on a AICS too. Doesn't cost much either. </div></div>

thats interesting i dont know the mechanics of the torque wrench in detail but it would seem that if it breaks at the same pressure every time it cant be tightening it. aswell as the bolts arent turning at all. the wrench i use has a long break stroke. the handle breaks like 5 degrees before pressure is added again so i can stop before i turn the bolt at all.... but either way im no expert and ill stop doing it this way.

and i shall look into a bedding job aswell.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">someone needs a logbook.......chat up NOMAD.....he will hook you up!

</div></div>

ill hit him up on my next one. ive already got one in use for this rifle.

kenny

 

[armymedic.2]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Just my experience- my sps heavy barrel 308 shifts not at all.

my dads pencil barrel 300 RUM goes haywire after three shots.

my conclusion-heat, and a lot of it.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

This topic is in the genre of knowing where the barrel is pointed from typical conditions present at firing. A data/score book is useful at determining the effect of heat and fouling. In LR, I don't even think about going for record until I've shot at least 8 sighters from a fouled bore, earlier fouled from about 14 rounds.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This topic is in the genre of knowing where the barrel is pointed from typical conditions present at firing. A data/score book is useful at determining the effect of heat and fouling. In LR, I don't even think about going for record until I've shot at least 8 sighters from a fouled bore, earlier fouled from about 14 rounds. </div></div>

yep i was logging the shots under different temps and fouling but now im being told that its either shooter error or the rifles messed up. my understanding is there should be no shift of POI no matter the temperature of the barrel. only fouling affects POI. this is what im being told. do you concur?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This topic is in the genre of knowing where the barrel is pointed from typical conditions present at firing. A data/score book is useful at determining the effect of heat and fouling. In LR, I don't even think about going for record until I've shot at least 8 sighters from a fouled bore, earlier fouled from about 14 rounds. </div></div>

yep i was logging the shots under different temps and fouling but now im being told that its either shooter error or the rifles messed up. my understanding is there should be no shift of POI no matter the temperature of the barrel. only fouling affects POI. this is what im being told. do you concur?</div></div>

It's hard for me to take a stand on the absoluteness of anything regarding good shooting except the need for consistent sight alignment; but, I've observed, even with
"match grade" barrels, temperature, as well as fouling will effect outcomes. Thus, I will foul my barrel before a LR match. And, once on the firing line, I will take no less than 8 sighters to warm up the gun. This process seems to bring down SD and ES, which is meaningful at LR. A chronograph will confirm whether or not fouling and warm up have any effect on the consistency of your equipment.

BTW, I do think, at some point, either the barrel is going to be conditioned or it is not. It's important to understand what you've got for a multitude of reasons. At any rate, by whatever means the barrel can be conditioned, I think the shooter who can afford it should entertain it. I gotta tell ya though, taking something like a 6.5/284 to the firing line and warming it up will see you re-barreling to the point that unless you've got a sponsor, you'll ask yourself if this is something you can afford.

 

[UKDslayer]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Aah, the concept of cold bore vs. cold shooter again. I think its more superstition, but I personally prefer to clean & then foul with four rounds...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

A well built tactical rifle should NOT exhibit a cold bore deviation, that is what you are paying for, consistency under any condition.

that said there are many factors which can cause a cold bore deviation on the rifles side, however the majority of cold bore deviations experienced are more shooter error than rifle, especially with a higher end tactical rifle.

I have posted many pictures showing no deviation, but this has to be one of my favorite pictures, that is two rounds, cold bore and second shot follow up, shot during class.

We instruct them to dry fire prior and over the week it greatly reduces the deviation as seen here. This is not uncommon for the class, this is just a perfect example. Usually people are within .25 of their first 2 shots, which I would consider no deviation.

We see it usually comes down to bedding, bore, or torque, because of this they can be hard to diagnose. Are there other factors, sure, there can be, but again this usually means a small problem more than a common occurrence.

First, it's best to test you, that can usually be done by shooting a rifle first, before moving to a rifle suspected of a cold bore deviation. What happens is, that first round flinch is removed by shooting something else, then moving to a different rifle once warmed up.

If that still shows a deviation you can begin to check torque values, and move on from there. If its a factory gun, it might be harder to find. But not impossible.

If it is a case of a poorly build barrel, not much you can do, but grin and bear it.

A fouled barrel should not deviate, a clean barrel might if you remove every bit of copper because you are changing the properties of the bore. There is such a thing as good copper and removing it causes the shift.

As I stated in the other thread, problems tend to walk, so it takes more than one round to settle in. Shooter error is usually just 1 round, maybe 2, but you can greatly reduce that by properly dry firing prior to the cold bore shot. Not everyone can eliminate it, but you can reduce it. At this point because I don't think of it, I don't have it happen anymore and I don't need to dry fire as much, although it never hurts.

It's not a variation in FPS from the bullets, we chronograph these things and it never goes in a straight line up... it's moves back and forth, so if it was FPS it would move in a straight line otherwise no rounds would be consistently on target.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A well built tactical rifle should NOT exhibit a cold bore deviation, that is what you are paying for, consistency under any condition.

that said there are many factors which can cause a cold bore deviation on the rifles side, however the majority of cold bore deviations experienced are more shooter error than rifle, especially with a higher end tactical rifle.

I have posted many pictures showing no deviation, but this has to be one of my favorite pictures, that is two rounds, cold bore and second shot follow up, shot during class.

We instruct them to dry fire prior and over the week it greatly reduces the deviation as seen here. This is not uncommon for the class, this is just a perfect example. Usually people are within .25 of their first 2 shots, which I would consider no deviation.

We see it usually comes down to bedding, bore, or torque, because of this they can be hard to diagnose. Are there other factors, sure, there can be, but again this usually means a small problem more than a common occurrence.

First, it's best to test you, that can usually be done by shooting a rifle first, before moving to a rifle suspected of a cold bore deviation. What happens is, that first round flinch is removed by shooting something else, then moving to a different rifle once warmed up.

If that still shows a deviation you can begin to check torque values, and move on from there. If its a factory gun, it might be harder to find. But not impossible.

If it is a case of a poorly build barrel, not much you can do, but grin and bear it.

A fouled barrel should not deviate, a clean barrel might if you remove every bit of copper because you are changing the properties of the bore. There is such a thing as good copper and removing it causes the shift.

As I stated in the other thread, problems tend to walk, so it takes more than one round to settle in. Shooter error is usually just 1 round, maybe 2, but you can greatly reduce that by properly dry firing prior to the cold bore shot. Not everyone can eliminate it, but you can reduce it. At this point because I don't think of it, I don't have it happen anymore and I don't need to dry fire as much, although it never hurts.

It's not a variation in FPS from the bullets, we chronograph these things and it never goes in a straight line up... it's moves back and forth, so if it was FPS it would move in a straight line otherwise no rounds would be consistently on target.

</div></div>

I cannot observe the effect at SR; but, at LR it's a problem (for scored competition).

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

well guys i went out again today to test the theory... i shot 40 rounds in 10 minutes at 1in cirlces @ 100 yards. i called my shots and although i had flyers off target i can safely say they were all my fault. the barrel was too hot to keep my hand on it very long and the 1st shot the 20th shot and the 40th shot were all in the same circle about a 3/4 of an inch group. thats the "cold bore shot" the mid heat shot and the flaming hot barrel shot..

i was just mind fucking myself before pulling a shot and then seeing it and saying hmm its high again i wonder if this is heat... going in knowing it isnt suppose to happened put all the flyers blame right on the nutt behind the wheel and it made sense. i also credit the added amount of dry firing prior to my cold shooter shot to that first shot being right in there.

i learned alot this weekend thanks guys!

kenny

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

You now have an observation which has lead to an inference. There are some additional experiments you might want to make to see if your inference remains trustworthy. For example, from a cold/clean bore condition you can chronograph your load, creating ES/SD sets for let's say 10 round progressions to observe trends. Another experiment, would be shooting multiple 10 shot strings on an MR-31 target to observe elevation tendencies.

My own experiments, in practice, as well as competition have revealed I can hold x-ring elevation through-out a string of fire when the bore has been conditioned. Holding X-ring elevation is important on a target with scorable rings. It assures, to a degree, higher scores, even when wind favors are less than perfect, since the bullet drift is at an elevation matching the target's diamater.

At any rate, your observations should look for whether or not barrel conditioning can help you to hold X-ring elevation.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Oh my goodness; are we doing <span style="font-style: italic">this</span> thing again?

Hey, know your rifle. It doesn't get any simpler, or any harder, than that.

To be a shooter, you need to <span style="font-style: italic">shoot</span>. Talk never aced a target, ever.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Greg,

What I see here are folks who shoot plenty; but, apparently, have difficulty with shooter/target analysis. They do not know how to discern, from observation, or other, the source/s for their errors. And, therefore, they are stymied in their pursuit of excellence. Some can certainly observe something is wrong; but, they have no clue how to fix it. That's why they ask questions. Others, shooting "hit or miss" targets, rather than decimal targets, may not even observe, or be aware of error, since these targets do not reveal fine errors. And, since these targets do not distinguish shooters with awesome skills from those still aspiring to become good shooters, the mediocre shooter may become/remain delusional about his mad skillzzz. When these folks show me how to do it, I'm amused. When they show a sincere beginner how to do it, I feel something else.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Yes, of course; you're right.

My point, if I have one, is that experience is the true teacher.

Discussion is excellent up to a point, but the time comes when nothing is left to do but to go forth and do the shooting. Further, the place for the coaching and criticism is up close and personal; the Internet can only cover some of the bases. Eyeball knowledge serves where putting things into words can fail.

Obviously we are conducting this dialogue via the Internet, so it definitely has its benefits. But the end result does not occur here. So I think there's validity to both viewpoints.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Greg,

Yes, there's no substitute for rounds down range. And, for aspiring shooters who recognize the value in acquiring a highly qualified coach/mentor, progress is further assured.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,

Yes, there's no substitute for rounds down range. And, for aspiring shooters who recognize the value in acquiring a highly qualified coach/mentor, progress is further assured. </div></div>


i agree and i dont.. ive met a few people that have a whole list of classes and courses theyve taken that straight out suck with a pistol. ive never taken a pistol course and ill put your average LEO to shame. thats not saying much but they get trained for months.

long story short i dont care what shiny medals or certificates or trophys you have SHOW me what you can do... case and point everyone on either cast of "Top Shot".. they are all instructors and olympic this and national that....and they all SUCK.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You now have an observation which has lead to an inference. There are some additional experiments you might want to make to see if your inference remains trustworthy. For example, from a cold/clean bore condition you can chronograph your load, creating ES/SD sets for let's say 10 round progressions to observe trends. Another experiment, would be shooting multiple 10 shot strings on an MR-31 target to observe elevation tendencies.

My own experiments, in practice, as well as competition have revealed I can hold x-ring elevation through-out a string of fire when the bore has been conditioned. Holding X-ring elevation is important on a target with scorable rings. It assures, to a degree, higher scores, even when wind favors are less than perfect, since the bullet drift is at an elevation matching the target's diamater.

At any rate, your observations should look for whether or not barrel conditioning can help you to hold X-ring elevation.






</div></div>

i think i follow you but if i do you just said it in a very confusing way.... ive confirmed the theory under one condition so i need to see if it holds true under other conditions right? but im not sure what your trying to say with the x-ring part..

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

You were satisfied with shots anywhere inside an inch, It did not matter whether they were on call or not right? 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, whatever, right? You accepted the result, defining it as good. For me, shooting for score, I want every bullet to go though the hole vacated by its predecessor. I want pinwheel X hits. If I was shooting at your 1 inch circles that would mean I would want every shot in the center of the circle, that's to say, I want zero displacement from POA and POI. Anything less does not satisfy me. And, anything less will, forgive the pun, trigger me to analyze what brought about the error. Make no mistake about it, if your aiming at the center and hit anywhere other than the center there's an issue, which the highly classified target shooter will want to resolve, if he wants to win in the highest level of competition.

Your observation from afar did not discern a problem. Hitting inside the 1 inch circle was good enough, kinda like playing horseshoes. I think if you make your evaluation more stringent you may then see the effect of progressive heat and fouling on your barrel. I think most high level NRA LR shooters see enough of a problem with it all that they counter for it by conditioning the bore before going for record fire.

Lowlight mentioned why shooters spend big money on barrels, yet, even with big money, consistency through-out the shot string is still not absolutely assured. When any of us get a really good barrel the treasure is appreciated while it lasts.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You were satisfied with shots anywhere inside an inch, It did not matter whether they were on call or not right? 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, whatever, right? You accepted the result, defining it as good. For me, shooting for score, I want every bullet to go though the hole vacated by its predecessor. I want pinwheel X hits. If I was shooting at your 1 inch circles that would mean I would want every shot in the center of the circle, that's to say, I want zero displacement from POA and POI. Anything less does not satisfy me. And, anything less will, forgive the pun, trigger me to analyze what brought about the error. Make no mistake about it, if your aiming at the center and hit anywhere other than the center there's an issue, which the highly classified target shooter will want to resolve, if he wants to win in the highest level of competition.

Your observation from afar did not discern a problem. Hitting inside the 1 inch circle was good enough, kinda like playing horseshoes. I think if you make your evaluation more stringent you may then see the effect of progressive heat and fouling on your barrel. I think most high level NRA LR shooters see enough of a problem with it all that they counter for it by conditioning the bore before going for record fire.

Lowlight mentioned why shooters spend big money on barrels, yet, even with big money, consistency through-out the shot string is still not absolutely assured. When any of us get a really good barrel the treasure is appreciated for while it lasts. </div></div>

i see... well i try to end on a good note so i dont just come home and throw my rifle in the trash and go back to shooting pistols. i know in my mind it needs improvement but i try to stay positive. and for a guy who has only shot 260 rnds ever in his life on a LR rifle .75 MOA after shooting 40 rnds quite fast sounds pretty good.. lol. bsassically my post on that group was just me saying "well thats within my abilitys so theres no shift that i can shoot for now".

im always learning and progressing but it will come with more trigger time and knowing that keeps me coming back. im sure ill have more questions for you guys in the future to move my progression forward.

kenny

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Kenny,

You're on the right track. Keep it up!

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Kenny,

I think you're a sincere guy, and, I hope my post did not discourage you. My intent is to help you see something beyond what you can see from your limited perspective. I assume you want to become an extraordinary shooter. To do that, you need to reach beyond your capability today in order to get to higher plateaus tomorrow.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Sterling,

I don't think anyone is satisfied just hitting anywhere on a 1 inch pasty, (for the record those in the picture are 3/4"). I think most people strive to put them in the center as close as possible. As well, once zeroed we really don't advocate shooting groups except to diagnose issues, check zero, etc. We use the dots like that because they are easier to work with, and on demand under any conditions 1 MOA is pretty standard to ask people... besides it's not for score.

Once this is established we generally move to the dot drill targets which has dots that are 3/8" for the civilian precision shooter. The .gov guys maintain a 1 MOA dot because their rifles are only capable to hover around that accuracy.

The dot drill hones the shooter to take each shot individually and not as a "group" so to speak. it helps identify errors. I pulled this one randomly from the Practical / Tactical thread.

I would recommend you show one of your targets to zero on to help people understand how you do it with irons. The triangulation of the shots to center it up.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kenny,

I think you're a sincere guy, and, I hope my post did not discourage you. My intent is to help you see something beyond what you can see from your limited perspective. I assume you want to become an extraordinary shooter. To do that, you need to reach beyond your capability today in order to get to higher plateaus tomorrow. </div></div>

not at all sterling. i appreciate your input and i shall take it and run with it. your right i do need to push myself more and strive to do better on each shot. thanks for the advice.

kenny

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Shooting a match conditioned commercial equivalent of the M16-A2 in NRA Long Range Competition, I have adopted several strategies for success. Among these are: shooting extraordinarily massaged ammunition, holding fire for the prevailing wind, and shooting from a conditioned bore, which is a strategy in context to this thread. The idea is to minimize the effect of conditions I cannot control by maximizing the effect of what I can control. For example, I can't always get the wind right, or so far, I have not been able to do that; but, by barrel conditioning, holding hard, and shooting massaged ammunition, I can control vertical dispersion, which effectively makes the target bigger, allowing for some wind error without a consequence.

The key to these strategies working is a highly refined zero, which is resolved by triangulation, since I can't reliably shoot bullets into the hole vacated by the first, although that's still the goal.

I don't really see a difference between what you do and what I do regarding marksmanship in general. All that's required in any arena is a target design which allows/supports analysis of error. The OP, in his experiment with "Cold/Fouled", I think would have been better served with a more discerning target, as well as procedure.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

sterling what would be a benefit of having a target in a certain configuration?. do the lines show a measuarble distance off target so you can analyze whats going on better?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sterling what would be a benefit of having a target in a certain configuration?. do the lines show a measuarble distance off target so you can analyze whats going on better?</div></div>

Yes, and, plotting calls and strikes in a data book, which pictures a facsimile of the target, is helpful too. With a proper data book/recording process, you can discern all strikes/calls in their order, which, for a multitude of reasons, can help you see/troubleshoot the source/s for most all errors.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sterling what would be a benefit of having a target in a certain configuration?. do the lines show a measuarble distance off target so you can analyze whats going on better?</div></div>

Yes, and, recording calls and strikes in a data book, which pictures a facsimile of the target, is helpful too. With a data book/process, you can record all strikes/calls in their order, which, for a multitude of reasons, can help you discern/troubleshoot errors. </div></div>

i see. well ive been recording shots in my data book to a matching target. its a square turned 45 degrees or diamond if you will. just an out line and the center is blank. all you do is line the reticle up on all the corners and its level and dead center assuming you leveled the target aswell. i suppose its just a clean bore target. it dosent matter where it hits you just want to measure the difference between shots 1-10 and not also be concetrating on the fact that it may be off zero. do you recommend i switch targets?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sterling what would be a benefit of having a target in a certain configuration?. do the lines show a measuarble distance off target so you can analyze whats going on better?</div></div>

Yes, and, recording calls and strikes in a data book, which pictures a facsimile of the target, is helpful too. With a data book/process, you can record all strikes/calls in their order, which, for a multitude of reasons, can help you discern/troubleshoot errors. </div></div>

i see. well ive been recording shots in my data book to a matching target. its a square turned 45 degrees or diamond if you will. just an out line and the center is blank. all you do is line the reticle up on all the corners and its level and dead center assuming you leveled the target aswell. i suppose its just a clean bore target. it dosent matter where it hits you just want to measure the difference between shots 1-10 and not also be concetrating on the fact that it may be off zero. do you recommend i switch targets? </div></div>

Try a bullseye target, perhaps, an MR-31. This is the 600 yard NRA HP target reduced for 100 yards. I find it's very useful for the sort of analysis you're doing. BTW, attemping to line up the reticle on the corners of your presently selected target is likely to be distracting you from what's really important, which is the reticle intersection/target relationship.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Sterling I think showing your target is a better way because what you are saying makes very little sense to a precision rifle shooter who in many cases has every round touching each other during the zero process.

Yes diagnosing errors with target analysis is important it is the very first thing we do before class even starts, but you have to put this in context.

Lines don't tell you anything when there are no lines to be seen under a group.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

Since performance evaluations are made from the corollaries of calls and strikes plotted in a score book, interpretations of obliterated targets are not necessary. However, if a shooter is "tearing-it-up", perhaps a greater distance should be considered to reveal angular and other sorts of errors which are usually masked at the short line.

BTW, I understand the rhyme and reason for the type of targets you use for the things you're teaching. I'm sure your process and procedure is as effective as it is efficient for what you're doing.

Also, in the future, on instruction which can be supported with graphics, illustrations, photographs, or other that I may have on hand, I'll post them. I will get with my IT guy to figure it out. Regarding triangulation, there are some very good Power Point slides of the concept in current SDM curriculum. Perhaps, someone who knows how to do it could post those.

 

[j-huskey]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sterling what would be a benefit of having a target in a certain configuration?. do the lines show a measuarble distance off target so you can analyze whats going on better?</div></div>

Yes, and, recording calls and strikes in a data book, which pictures a facsimile of the target, is helpful too. With a data book/process, you can record all strikes/calls in their order, which, for a multitude of reasons, can help you discern/troubleshoot errors. </div></div>

i see. well ive been recording shots in my data book to a matching target. its a square turned 45 degrees or diamond if you will. just an out line and the center is blank. all you do is line the reticle up on all the corners and its level and dead center assuming you leveled the target aswell. i suppose its just a clean bore target. it dosent matter where it hits you just want to measure the difference between shots 1-10 and not also be concetrating on the fact that it may be off zero. do you recommend i switch targets? </div></div>

Reading the whole post, Ken, do not switch targets. I see where Sterling said to use the bullseye, and I would not do this. I "see" what you are saying about the diamond, and I prefer the diamond when I am training my police guys on Sniper rifle and so does the FBI. There is a valid reason for this.
Sterling on the other hand is talking to you from a NRA HighPower stance, and I have shot Highpower for years. I know what he is trying to impart to you and NO OFFENSE STERLING, doing a very poor job of it.

For all you have said, you are on the correct track. Your dry firing before shooting the 40 rounds proved your point. You smoothed up your performance and you held those 40 rounds from cold bore to smoking bore within MOA. This may be the best your rifle can do.
IF it is the best your rifle can do, this is OK, because 99% of the military rifles and police are MOA rifles, and holding MOA with them is general standard.

To further prove your point, you repeat the 40 round test a couple more times and you get the same result, you know you have a MOA rifle. Once you know this, you can shoot the barrel out while refining your personal shooting skills, then rebarrel with a custom barrel and start looking for the results posted by Lowlight.

If you want to shoot HighPower where you can use what Sterling is saying, as (me) a 30 year Highpower shooter, I'd stay away from his advice until you want to have a competition rifle like he uses and well more than 200 rifle rounds down range.
Sterling's methodology will get you higher points on a competition range using bullseye targets, but it will not troubleshoot what you have dealt with so far.

With the rifle you have, you are on the right track so far. Shoot out the barrel and have fun learning what that specific rifle will do for you.

Listen to Lowlight on this specific topic, because on this one, what he said is spot on.

 

[Graham]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling's methodology will get you higher points on a competition range using bullseye targets, but it will not troubleshoot what you have dealt with so far... Listen to Lowlight on this specific topic, because on this one, what he said is spot on. </div></div>Agreed. Shoot the diamond targets and aim for the point.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Cold/Fouled bore

alrighty guys thanks for all your advice. im going to do some more shooting tomorrow morning and will apply it to my practice. im sure ill be back with new knowledge and more questions.

kenny