On a two day lay over and been doing a lot of digging and research on the so called higher end ballistic solvers. First component I want to remove is cost...sure one is 2 or 3 times the cost of the other but in the end you get what you pay for....(well most the time). I already own a Kestrel with AB software/bluetooth and have been debating about adding a new toy to go along with it. I see the two main choices are cold bore and FFS. Is one really that much better then the other? I see they both can link to GPS, how or what does it do with that info? I would only imagine the ballistic engine is using DA for the solution and not GPS altitude so what are the benefits of it using GPS. How has the link between the kestrel and pda been working out. If you were going to buy one what would it be or have you bought one and think the other is better? Just wanting to get some basic input not a pissing match....seems dollar for dollar the cold bore setup with a cheap PDA would be fine. I have an old garmin bluetooth GPS that may also link with the PDA, but need to do some digging when I get back home. If your using one does a lower end PDA work and how does it compare to a nomad? All in all is it that much better then the Kestrel AB?
Range Report Coldbore FFS or something else?
- Thread starter avidflyer
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Tag for later. I am just curious if there is anything better out that than a Kestrel with Applied Ballistics. Based on my limited experience with My AB Kestrel, I still am very doubtful. My only thoughts are that when you download a Custom Drag Model from Mr. Litz, you are getting ACCURATE drop values, not a published BC from the bullet manufacturer.
I haven't shot enough to have seen the difference but I believe Frank when he says that at extended ranges, the differences between the math in the different solvers starts to show itself. Ballistics calculators that work with the point mass solver seem to work quite well to around 1200-1500ish yards. That would be your AB App, AB Kestrel, Shooter App, Etc. There are also solvers that use Pesja's math for their solver and those apparently work much better with solutions that are a lot closer out to beyond 2200 yards. Again, I've not shot far enough to see the difference but I've also not had Frank claim anything that turned out to be bullshit later. So if he says there's a difference I believe him. It also says something that the guys doing the Gunsite ELR course do a ton of teaching about and with Field Firing Solutions.
The question becomes, are you planning to shoot far enough that the difference is going to become apparent?
I haven't played with Cold Bore but I do have the latest version of Field Firing Solutions on a Trimble Nomad. It is an EXTREMELY robust program. You can do anything with it, truly, its just not as fast or compact as some of the other stuff out there. Then again, if you are shooting far enough that it matters, you probably aren't on a clock in the first place, right? FFS pulls in GPS data for a number of reasons. It uses it to check your position on earth for Coriolis and Spin Drift and all that neat stuff. It also allows you to set up firing positions with GPS and a bearing. This way you can return to the same spot and already have distances, bearings, and all the calculations that go with them stored and ready to go. If you link it to a Vectronix range finder you can zap ranges and it will automatically build the range card for you.
Hopefully Frank will chime in but in my opinion, you don't need to get into Premium Ballistics Engines unless you are shooting ELR distances. A lot of apps and certainly the new AB Kestrel do a really good job at typical shooting distances. I've shot to about 1150 so far with mine and its been dead on the money. When I start doing load development with my 338LM and start reaching out, I'll pull the Nomad out of the safe and use that for the solutions. You are looking at about a Grand out of pocket if you want to get started with a Premium Solver and a rugged PDA and that's if you find good deals on a PDA that isn't the most up to date version. The newer PDAs are about 1500 by themselves.
The question becomes, are you planning to shoot far enough that the difference is going to become apparent?
I haven't played with Cold Bore but I do have the latest version of Field Firing Solutions on a Trimble Nomad. It is an EXTREMELY robust program. You can do anything with it, truly, its just not as fast or compact as some of the other stuff out there. Then again, if you are shooting far enough that it matters, you probably aren't on a clock in the first place, right? FFS pulls in GPS data for a number of reasons. It uses it to check your position on earth for Coriolis and Spin Drift and all that neat stuff. It also allows you to set up firing positions with GPS and a bearing. This way you can return to the same spot and already have distances, bearings, and all the calculations that go with them stored and ready to go. If you link it to a Vectronix range finder you can zap ranges and it will automatically build the range card for you.
Hopefully Frank will chime in but in my opinion, you don't need to get into Premium Ballistics Engines unless you are shooting ELR distances. A lot of apps and certainly the new AB Kestrel do a really good job at typical shooting distances. I've shot to about 1150 so far with mine and its been dead on the money. When I start doing load development with my 338LM and start reaching out, I'll pull the Nomad out of the safe and use that for the solutions. You are looking at about a Grand out of pocket if you want to get started with a Premium Solver and a rugged PDA and that's if you find good deals on a PDA that isn't the most up to date version. The newer PDAs are about 1500 by themselves.
I have the Field Firing Solutions on a Pharos PDA and I will say it is by far the best program I have used. I have used ATRAG on a nomad, just about all the android and i phone apps and the horus kestrel. I have not used the kestrel with AB, so I can not speak to how good that is, but most say it is very good.
As far as FFS is concerned as long as I have a good velocity and BC it has been dead on. With my 300 WSM I was less .1 mil off on elevation at a mile with 208 AMAX bullets. With that gun as well as my 308 and my 6mm Creed it has been dead on to about 1400 yards. I bluetooth the weather and bam hit the target. If I had a PLRF with a data port I would get the nomad if you don't plan on having a super high end plrf then the pharos pda is good enough.
Also FFS you can true just about everything if you need to. I have not had to use any of those features. As long as you do some research and fond a good G1 BC for your bullet then it should be right on.
As far as FFS is concerned as long as I have a good velocity and BC it has been dead on. With my 300 WSM I was less .1 mil off on elevation at a mile with 208 AMAX bullets. With that gun as well as my 308 and my 6mm Creed it has been dead on to about 1400 yards. I bluetooth the weather and bam hit the target. If I had a PLRF with a data port I would get the nomad if you don't plan on having a super high end plrf then the pharos pda is good enough.
Also FFS you can true just about everything if you need to. I have not had to use any of those features. As long as you do some research and fond a good G1 BC for your bullet then it should be right on.
I have been using both FFS and Coldbore for the last 3 years, but now I only run Coldbore, because it gives me a lot of options with their complete suite for PC, PDA and Phone. Either program is a must need for true ELR work. I think it's important to make clarify that while the term long range is usually defined in terms of yardage alone, this could be misleading sometimes. In my experience these two really shine when a particular load is traversing the lower transonic and subsonic zones.
Many times I compared them side by side both to other programs like JBM, AB, Shooter (plus some others all being Point Mass solutions) and under those circumstances they start to show their weakness, and most notably they do not require any kind of "custom curve" to make them work as expected. Now feature by feature I made Coldbore my favorite. I can sync my data to and from the Desktop version in a pinch. When hunting I usally carry paper tables for backup purposes, well, doing them with Coldbore is a no brainer to say the least.
On having a mobile solution, the problem with FFS and Atrag is you need to run them a PDA. Not so with Coldbore being available on Windows Phone, and all I can say it's amazingly fast...so fast that even the fastest PDA looks like a tired old horse, and light years ahead of what any PDA program can offer. Just take a look to its full Mapping and GPS targeting features and it's easy to make a decision on what platform is best.
On the other hand, the PDA is a dying technology, so dead that Microsoft stop supporting it about 3 years ago. Coldbore is a full military spec solution, no feature left even for the most advantaged and demanding users. Money alone, for the cost of Coldbore you get all 3 packages (PC, PDA and Windows Phone).
Finally take into account that none of these programs are complicated or hard to use, but to master them to their fullest takes time.
Many times I compared them side by side both to other programs like JBM, AB, Shooter (plus some others all being Point Mass solutions) and under those circumstances they start to show their weakness, and most notably they do not require any kind of "custom curve" to make them work as expected. Now feature by feature I made Coldbore my favorite. I can sync my data to and from the Desktop version in a pinch. When hunting I usally carry paper tables for backup purposes, well, doing them with Coldbore is a no brainer to say the least.
On having a mobile solution, the problem with FFS and Atrag is you need to run them a PDA. Not so with Coldbore being available on Windows Phone, and all I can say it's amazingly fast...so fast that even the fastest PDA looks like a tired old horse, and light years ahead of what any PDA program can offer. Just take a look to its full Mapping and GPS targeting features and it's easy to make a decision on what platform is best.
On the other hand, the PDA is a dying technology, so dead that Microsoft stop supporting it about 3 years ago. Coldbore is a full military spec solution, no feature left even for the most advantaged and demanding users. Money alone, for the cost of Coldbore you get all 3 packages (PC, PDA and Windows Phone).
Finally take into account that none of these programs are complicated or hard to use, but to master them to their fullest takes time.
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I don't want to start a Coldbore vs. FFS debate as both programs have their followers and both use the same engine, but I wanted to provide another opinion on FFS. I use a Pharos 565 PDA with FFS, and never have to wait, even when using GPS functions. If you use a PDA that meets the required specs, there isn't any slowness. I paid $80 for my main Pharos, and $65 for a 2nd one in case the first ever has problems. So far, the first has worked perfectly.
I almost bought Coldbore at one point, but was very put off by it's licensing. If you upgrade or change your hardware after 3 months, you have to buy the program again. I know that Coldbore is cheaper than FFS, but I can't see rebuying Coldbore any time I want to change my hardware. For folks that don't think their hardware will ever die, or that they will never upgrade will come out ahead cost-wise. Folks buying Coldbore just need to make sure they are ok with this policy.
Another thing to consider is support. A friend of mine was going to buy Coldbore, and emailed in some questions. The responses were slow and incomplete. He wasn't impressed and ended up settling for Shooter. FFS provides terrific phone and email support. I have had several terrific discussions. with Blaine, the developer of FFS. Blaine took the time to explain even the advanced features in great detail.
I do like that you can use Coldbore on your desktop as well as PDA/phone, and the printout functions look very helpful. Although they have the same engine, both programs have different strengths and weaknesses. Like most things in life, you need to pick your trade-offs.
I almost bought Coldbore at one point, but was very put off by it's licensing. If you upgrade or change your hardware after 3 months, you have to buy the program again. I know that Coldbore is cheaper than FFS, but I can't see rebuying Coldbore any time I want to change my hardware. For folks that don't think their hardware will ever die, or that they will never upgrade will come out ahead cost-wise. Folks buying Coldbore just need to make sure they are ok with this policy.
Another thing to consider is support. A friend of mine was going to buy Coldbore, and emailed in some questions. The responses were slow and incomplete. He wasn't impressed and ended up settling for Shooter. FFS provides terrific phone and email support. I have had several terrific discussions. with Blaine, the developer of FFS. Blaine took the time to explain even the advanced features in great detail.
I do like that you can use Coldbore on your desktop as well as PDA/phone, and the printout functions look very helpful. Although they have the same engine, both programs have different strengths and weaknesses. Like most things in life, you need to pick your trade-offs.
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Just want to clarify some concerns you expressed about Coldbore licensing policy. You can always get a new license for free as long as you send them an unlicense code. I did that twice for my PC and PDA and got a new license no questions asked. Some people perhaps don't get this clearly, but it's in the manual in bold. You don't need to purchase a new license if switching hardware, not at all. You simple send the required code, the new key and that's it. A different scenario is people who like to have more than one installation running the software at the same time. The 3 months you referred to is of no consequence when asking for a new free license, so please check that again.
Finally to make this as clear as possible, I never paid an additional dollar after my initial purchase, neither for licenses nor for support, and always got their updates for free too, and being them a download, the process is almost instantaneous.
Regarding support, my experience is quite different since my emails were cleared within hours at the most and being myself a guy who takes its time to go through manuals, my calls for support are minimal. On the other hand, FFS manual is good enough but lacking in many areas, something I think they need to change in the future. And let me say that the engine is not the same, which I can tell for sure because I run them both side by side, and the outputs are close but as far as you go the greater the difference is between their fire solutions.
What FFS has is a great online tutorial (something Coldbore unfortunately lacks) which helps a lot to start digging into its more advanced features, and it's really very well put together.
I think technology matters a lot when considering software and being the PDA an almost obsolete piece, I'll think twice before investing on them, anyway, both are the best programs out there for ELR work, lots of features not present in any other package and worth a serious a look if you are after the very best only.
Lastshot,
I got this info from their website under the Licensing agreement. It says you get 3 months of free support and that you can move licenses to other devices during the support period only. In other threads, people complained that they got burnt buy this policy, and posted emails from the company stating their stance (sorry you have to buy another copy).
I am glad your experience is different. If the folks at Coldbore have changed their policy, it would be great if they updated their website. I may even buy a copy if I knew I could move the license as I upgrade devices. Coldbore does seem to have some interesting features.
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Abq, you are right, the site legal terms could be misleading and prone to a bad under reading, but IMHO the text refers to a situation where the user does not send them the unlicense code after the initial 3-month period, beacause the manual clearly states and explains how to get a new license for free and how to send the already mentioned code.
Like I said, no issues at all, so go ahead with confidence if you decide to give it a try, and if possible try the software on a Windows Phone (just make sure it runs WP 8.X not the older with 7.X), where it really shines with new features and fantastic performance.
Like you said, some features are truly good and the PC version is a must for us ELR folks and if I can be of any help, just let me know.
LastShot,
Thanks for all the info. I emailed Patagonia, and you are correct about the licensing and support. It sounds like they changed their policy. I am still a little concerned about if a device dies. Then there is no way to run the Unlicense code. But, overall, it sounds like the licensing policies have improved.
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for all the info. I emailed Patagonia, and you are correct about the licensing and support. It sounds like they changed their policy. I am still a little concerned about if a device dies. Then there is no way to run the Unlicense code. But, overall, it sounds like the licensing policies have improved.
Thanks for the info.
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