Sidearms & Scatterguns Combat zero RMR
- Thread starter BenjaminMartin6.5
- Start date
If someone is preparing for when their position might be overrun at 25 yards and planning to use their pistol to fight their way to grab their rifle to engage in the fight, then 25 yards makes sense. There will about 11" of bullet rise between the pistol muzzle and the 25 yard target. A CrownVic and Suburban are about 21-23 feet long. A Wall Mart aisle may be 30 yards long without any exit. Most convenience store aisle's are shorter than a Suburban. Then there is Tueller's 21 foot (CrownVic again) Rule / Drill.
There are not too many tales of civilians engaging the bad guy at 25 yards without a Negative Outcome for the shooter. IF you need to engage at 25 yards, hold over the ~ width of your dot, again not likely you will be making a precision assassination shot.
https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/serious-mistakes-gunowners-make/
Bad guys don't care what distance they are shot at or what they got shot with.
The distance one sights their CCW is the least of the issues that will face a civilian if a Negative Outcome results.
However , zeroing the firearm about the distance of a CrownVic or Suburban should serve you well, even at that distance the vertical discrepancy of the point of impact is less important the making sure one hasn't completely snatched the trigger right / left and completely missed the man sized target!
There are not too many tales of civilians engaging the bad guy at 25 yards without a Negative Outcome for the shooter. IF you need to engage at 25 yards, hold over the ~ width of your dot, again not likely you will be making a precision assassination shot.
https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/serious-mistakes-gunowners-make/
Bad guys don't care what distance they are shot at or what they got shot with.
The distance one sights their CCW is the least of the issues that will face a civilian if a Negative Outcome results.
However , zeroing the firearm about the distance of a CrownVic or Suburban should serve you well, even at that distance the vertical discrepancy of the point of impact is less important the making sure one hasn't completely snatched the trigger right / left and completely missed the man sized target!
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So...........much.............bullshit
What mall do you overwatch at?
It would be around ten or eleven inches if you just dropped an object over .065 seconds. That thinking ignores the height over the barrel of the sight, and how that offset creates the upside of the bullet's parabolic trajectory. An RMR is even higher than the irons generally. The whole concept of "point blank range" is the range where you effectively do not have to account for distance to target with a hold over. Otherwise (if you were looking down the barrel only) the only "point blank range" would only be right at the muzzle. Well, it isn't, because when the bullet leaves the barrel it is pointed slightly above the horizon. Pretty much from the muzzle out to 35 or 40 yards that bullet is going to be in a 2" area, and you are good to go anywhere in there with no holdover, which is why so many people say 25 yards...
Don't take my word for it. You can plug it all into your ballistic computer, and if it graphs you can see it for yourself. Or go here:
http://gundata.org/blog/post/9mm-ballistics-chart/
Don't take my word for it. You can plug it all into your ballistic computer, and if it graphs you can see it for yourself. Or go here:
http://gundata.org/blog/post/9mm-ballistics-chart/
"making a precision assassination shot."
Are you retarded?
Are you retarded?
For those of you that may be mathematically impaired, you won't get it anyways. For those of you that understand basic trigonometry this is the how you get to 11".
Every 0.007" (thickness of average index card) differential in pistol sight adjustment for a 4-5" barrel firearm results in a 1" difference in point-of-impact at 25 yards.
For the pistol, the fixed sight-bore axis angle differential determines the vertical launch angle of the bullet; the launch angle can be adjusted by changing sight heights .
When a bullet leaves the muzzle of any firearm it has a velocity in at least two dimensions, vertically and horizontally down range.
In the case of the Smith & Wesson , Sig MP full size or Glock 17 the angle is 0.69 degrees which imparts a vertical velocity to the bullet the instant it leaves the muzzle. As a first order approximation, for a muzzle velocity of 1140 fps, this angle imparts a vertical velocity of 13.7 fps at the muzzle; time for the bullet to traverse 25 yards (75 feet) is 0.066 sec, at which time the bullet has risen 0.066 sec x 13.7 fps = 0.9 feet (10.8”)……there is your 11” at 25 yards; the downward force of gravity is not considered here however it is used to precisely determine at what time in the flight path the bullet will reach its apex (vertical velocity = zero). It is easy to see how just muzzle velocity alone will impact vertical impact on the target.
How about you mall lovers. Why not cite a single case where a CCW holder engaged a bad guy at 25 yards in self-defense, the mall or otherwise? Myself and others will be standing by to see exactly what you have to offer in this debate in terms of real life situations.
Every 0.007" (thickness of average index card) differential in pistol sight adjustment for a 4-5" barrel firearm results in a 1" difference in point-of-impact at 25 yards.
For the pistol, the fixed sight-bore axis angle differential determines the vertical launch angle of the bullet; the launch angle can be adjusted by changing sight heights .
When a bullet leaves the muzzle of any firearm it has a velocity in at least two dimensions, vertically and horizontally down range.
In the case of the Smith & Wesson , Sig MP full size or Glock 17 the angle is 0.69 degrees which imparts a vertical velocity to the bullet the instant it leaves the muzzle. As a first order approximation, for a muzzle velocity of 1140 fps, this angle imparts a vertical velocity of 13.7 fps at the muzzle; time for the bullet to traverse 25 yards (75 feet) is 0.066 sec, at which time the bullet has risen 0.066 sec x 13.7 fps = 0.9 feet (10.8”)……there is your 11” at 25 yards; the downward force of gravity is not considered here however it is used to precisely determine at what time in the flight path the bullet will reach its apex (vertical velocity = zero). It is easy to see how just muzzle velocity alone will impact vertical impact on the target.
How about you mall lovers. Why not cite a single case where a CCW holder engaged a bad guy at 25 yards in self-defense, the mall or otherwise? Myself and others will be standing by to see exactly what you have to offer in this debate in terms of real life situations.
LOL Bryan Litz is not worried about his job at Berger
For pistol ranges, it doesn't matter.
If you can consistantly hit POA with your pistol at 10+ yards, youre GTG. Stop overthinking it.
Anyone too worried about exterior ballistics of a pistol round has no idea what combat shooting with a pistol actually entails.
If you can consistantly hit POA with your pistol at 10+ yards, youre GTG. Stop overthinking it.
Anyone too worried about exterior ballistics of a pistol round has no idea what combat shooting with a pistol actually entails.
IDPA typically has 25 yard targets and they can be as far as 45 yds. I don’t use the sights on a pistol unless it’s a long shot. I will with an RMR just because it’s there in my sight picture.
Lol this thread has been nuked hard. I listened to a podcast from Young Lee who was a SWAT team lead and GM in USPSA holding titles. He said to zero the dot at 12 yards. I don’t recall his specific details about why.
I zeroed my dot at 12 yards and it’s been great. I can make accurate and repeatable hits on steel at 50 yards with a center hold on 10” circle plate and smaller plates at further distances.
No holds needed during USPSA matches except for optic height at about 5 yards and in which is just a couple inches. Negligible in combat effective hits.
I zeroed my dot at 12 yards and it’s been great. I can make accurate and repeatable hits on steel at 50 yards with a center hold on 10” circle plate and smaller plates at further distances.
No holds needed during USPSA matches except for optic height at about 5 yards and in which is just a couple inches. Negligible in combat effective hits.
Yong Lee is a freaking machine. Imitating what he does with a pistol is never wrong.
I use 10 yards.....because my eye sight is dog shit and sighting it in at a 25 yards on a dot style zero target smaller than my red dot is impossible...
my 10 yard zero still allows me to hit a human size target exactly where I want unless im shooting at distance that a pistol has no business messing with.
I have also discovered that most people who have a 25 yard rmr sight in are dreaming....they come to a uspsa shoot and that 25 yard zero gets a lot of berm action
bench
my 10 yard zero still allows me to hit a human size target exactly where I want unless im shooting at distance that a pistol has no business messing with.
I have also discovered that most people who have a 25 yard rmr sight in are dreaming....they come to a uspsa shoot and that 25 yard zero gets a lot of berm action
bench
I co witnessed mine with the irons (suppressor height) and it seems to work okay. Recently passed my orgs pistol qual with a 1911 and a G19. Longest range was 25yds. All shots on target with the 1911 and lost three shots at 25yds with the G19. Both with iron sights.
Bad idea. In order for your rds to co witness with your irons, your wrist angle has to be pointed downwards. Line up your dot and then look at the slide and wrist angle to see if it’s pointing downwards.
My suppressor height sights are barely tall enough to clear the back of the RMR, so unless yours are extra tall, they don’t line up in the center of the window.
What!? If your irons are zeroed at 25 yards, and you could line up the dot perfectly with your irons, it would also be on at 25 yards. It really doesn't matter where they end up in the window, if at all. My irons peek over the RMR probably .1-.2". My dot is perfectly lined up with them, since they are also zeroed properly. To use the dot I just hold the pistol a quarter inch lower than I normally would, which puts the dot in the middle of the window.
My hat goes off to you, sir. That target, at a distance of four yards no less, is indeed confidence inspiring.
Being in the industry, I suspect you have a keen knowledge of one Harry Gordon Selfridge.
In the days after a ghastly July 1917 German air raid on London that killed forty civilians, Mr Selfridge, the American-born owner of Selfridges department store, took out ads declaring he would award $5,000 of life insurance on behalf of anyone killed by such an attack while shopping at his store. His building, he noted, was made out of concrete.
While we have no fear of the Kaiser's zeppelins looming above the food court, we do have the post-Modern hood rat. And whilst we have no Harry Selfridge, we do have @aslrookie. Thank the heavens. I have little doubt that your employer is so inspired by your pistol work that he/she may give similar assurances to the public at large.
I imagine you, dear sir, as a dapper pistolero who strolls the various shoppes with the grace of Fred Astair and the lethality of Jerry Miculek. Perhaps even in the very image of Mr. Selfridge himself. Forgive the alliteration.
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Zero your pistol optics at 10-12 yards. Period. End of story. Most people don't have the eyesight to resolve a fine point of aim beyond that distance anyway. I have 20/20 vision and can't really focus on a 3/4" dot much beyond that.
Then confirm at 15, 20, and 25 with 5-10 shot groups, preferably from a sandbag. You might find some deviations, especially with your windage. Adjust as needed, then move on with your life.
Then confirm at 15, 20, and 25 with 5-10 shot groups, preferably from a sandbag. You might find some deviations, especially with your windage. Adjust as needed, then move on with your life.
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Don’t you guys know that all the real operators zero their’s at 50 yards? That way when the put the suppressor on it the POI shift causes it to be zeroed at 25 yards for those close in clandestine operations.
Yeah but seriously I don’t do a ton with handguns but when I zeroed the RMR on my FNX 45 I did so at 50 yards. Not because it was the operator thing to do but simply because it made it easier to hit the little steel gongs at my local range when I didn’t have to hold over. And since it is only an inch or so high at 25 I saw no reason to change it.
Besides aren’t most gunfights at less than 7 yards anyway? At that point aren’t you more or less simply pointing the gun and shooting at the target rather than aiming through the red dot? I know personally I really only use the dot for longer shots where the sights cover up a noticeable portion of the target.
Yeah but seriously I don’t do a ton with handguns but when I zeroed the RMR on my FNX 45 I did so at 50 yards. Not because it was the operator thing to do but simply because it made it easier to hit the little steel gongs at my local range when I didn’t have to hold over. And since it is only an inch or so high at 25 I saw no reason to change it.
Besides aren’t most gunfights at less than 7 yards anyway? At that point aren’t you more or less simply pointing the gun and shooting at the target rather than aiming through the red dot? I know personally I really only use the dot for longer shots where the sights cover up a noticeable portion of the target.
I feel sorry for the folks who do not understand that in 99% of SD situations they will not have the time to look through their red dot sight.
I feel sorrier for anyone who chooses to carry a pistol but is so poorly trained that it takes them longer to acquire a sight picture than it does to point shoot. They should be identical. (Unless you're a complete cowboy and shoot from the hip).
(Note: this probably describes 99% of CHL holders in the country and 97% of the readers of Snipershide).
You know, you have to get the bullet inside the circle, right?
Great drill on repetition is get 50 rounds @ 10 to 12 yards (5x10 in your mag or whatever). Put a 1 inch circle on a paper plate and basically try to shoot the center out of it. Most people that can at least shoot a handgun can get 1 or 2 rounds near/on it. After that it quickly goes downhill due to grip and diminishing focus. The 10 round drills help your focus, as well as show your shit grip quickly as you start to shotgun rounds after 3 or 4. Then you have to do a mag change and do it again, on the same target.
If I focus enough, and do it enough, I can get them all in your 1 circle. It's annoying as fuck when theres like 2 outside of it lol
Hell just do Dot Torture at 5 yards. Most people can't clean it and it's easier than your drill.
Yes, it’s a slight deviation of my holdover as I cannot hold directly on the circle due to the zero, close distance to target and red dot height.
This shit about bullets defying gravity and actually rising for 25 yards after exiting the muzzle is an absolute game changer.
In fact, if you know what you are doing, if you flick your wrist when shooting, you can actually put a backward spin on the bullets and angle them around corners. It's true. I read it on the Internet.
