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Concentricity

Rotortuner

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 15, 2008
898
6
WA, USA
OK so I finally started loading a bunch of 308.
Lapua brass
175gr sierra
OAL is is about 2.80

I am using a redding competition seater with a forstar press.

I have a necco gage and measuring runout at the ogive, while supportin the case behind the neck and before the case head in the v blocks.

115 rounds, I get 33% that have less than .001 runout and the rest fall mostly in the .001-.003 range with just a hand full in the .0045 as the max. Is this acceptable for the dies and press im using or should I be getting better?

I seated the bullets then rotated the case and seated again, but wasn't paying to much attention at all to how much i was turning them.

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

I'm runnin the same load, except 2.840 COAL,

For my 308 Im using RCBS comp dies. My TIR is 0.0005 - 0.00075

More than 1 Thou is a practice cull. I start the boolit, twist, then finish seating. YMMV
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heavy Haulin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm runnin the same load, except 2.840 COAL,

For my 308 Im using RCBS comp dies. My TIR is 0.0005 - 0.00075

More than 1 Thou is a practice cull. I start the boolit, twist, then finish seating. YMMV </div></div>

Are you measuring at the ogive? How much do you twist?

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK so I finally started loading a bunch of 308.
Lapua brass
175gr sierra
OAL is is about 2.80

I am using a redding competition seater with a forstar press.

I have a necco gage and measuring runout at the ogive, while supportin the case behind the neck and before the case head in the v blocks.

115 rounds, I get 33% that have less than .001 runout and the rest fall mostly in the .001-.003 range with just a hand full in the .0045 as the max. Is this acceptable for the dies and press im using or should I be getting better?

I seated the bullets then rotated the case and seated again, but wasn't paying to much attention at all to how much i was turning them.

CJG </div></div>

It is SHIT ammo.....send it to me for disposal....
 
Re: Concentricity

Ya im sure, ahahah. No I culled out those tight tolerance ones and will use that for the longer shots(600-1k) and will use the higher run out stuff for the shorter stuff. Should be burned up by saturday afternoon.

Like i said im kinda new to reloading and just wanted to make sure those are the numbers that I should be seeing or if I should be getting better?

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heavy Haulin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm runnin the same load, except 2.840 COAL,

For my 308 Im using RCBS comp dies. My TIR is 0.0005 - 0.00075

More than 1 Thou is a practice cull. I start the boolit, twist, then finish seating. YMMV </div></div>

Are you measuring at the ogive? How much do you twist?

CJG </div></div>

Yes. I measure at the ogive. As far as the twist, I've tried bout every silly variation of twist, and guess what? It's all about the same. I'm usually BSing while I'm seating boolits as I load in lots of a few hundred, so I really don't pay any attention.

Basically I just give one pump to get the boolit STARTED, then give a lil RANDOM twist, and finish seating on the second pump.

With this method 99.9% of my rounds are well within 1 thou.

Don't know if I just have me a good die, or doin the twist really works, or a combo of both. Maybe it's the beer....
grin.gif
 
Re: Concentricity

I would come back from the ogive and measure on the shank of the bullet if possible as the ogive can have slight ridges in it from point forming pressure crushing the jacket in as the core flows up inside .
See if that gives better results.
 
Re: Concentricity

Brand new brass?

If so I bet the number of concentric rounds increases on the next load.

If not, start checking Concentricity at each step to find where your introducing runout.
 
Re: Concentricity

Those are some good ideas and I apreciate the feedback. about 45% of the brass is once fired and the rest was new. Do you guys keep all your brass on the same rotation or do you mix in new brass to the group now and then to replace ones your culling out to actually throw away?

I will let you guys know if the concentricity improves on the 2nd loading of this whole batch.

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

I bet your runout will improve after they all have been fired too.

As far as brass rotation, <span style="font-weight: bold">I TRY</span> to keep them in the same rotation, but <span style="font-weight: bold">sometimes</span> a few will overlap, within <span style="font-weight: bold">1</span> firing. I just like to know the age? of my brass for consistency purposes.
 
Re: Concentricity

I cut the brass to 2.01" I wonder if i left that out at 2.05" it would make any difference?

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">115 rounds, I get 33% that have less than .001 runout and the rest fall mostly in the .001-.003 range with just a hand full in the .0045 as the max. Is this acceptable for the dies and press im using or should I be getting better? </div></div>

These percentages are about what I get with 155 Scenars. However, you might get slightly better results (little tighter distribution) if you slow the lever down while seating; and use rather constant pressure; feeling the bullet sliding down the neck.

Take the ones outside 0.003 and use them for fouling purposes and sighters.
 
Re: Concentricity

I will probably re-cull them once more and pick out the ones over .003. then I will use 5 rounds of each of those groups and shoot them, verify for myself if this stuff actually means anything.

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

.....you might get slightly better results (little tighter distribution) if you slow the lever down while seating; and use rather constant pressure; feeling the bullet sliding down the neck.

Take the ones outside 0.003 and use them for fouling purposes and sighters. </div></div>

Good point MitchAIsup. +1 ^^^ I believe there is a lot to be said for that.
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heavy Haulin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

.....you might get slightly better results (little tighter distribution) if you slow the lever down while seating; and use rather constant pressure; feeling the bullet sliding down the neck.

Take the ones outside 0.003 and use them for fouling purposes and sighters. </div></div>

Good point MitchAIsup. +1 ^^^ I believe there is a lot to be said for that. </div></div>
I agree also . Give the brass a chance to expand and accept the bullet. Slow steady reloading is always best.
Inside neck polishing can also help.
 
Re: Concentricity

You might want to run a little experiment and see at what point concentricity becomes an issue in your particular barrel. As you will find everyone has their own opinion and although my opinion does not differ from a lot of the previous posts, I have found that my rifle/barrel does not seem to mind shooting bullets that have a concentricity of .003. Or maybe it is better said that if the concentricity is .003 or less, I have to focus more on my shooting skills than worry about missing a target because of concentricity issues.

…. But that’s just my $.02
 
Re: Concentricity

I have found that if you be consistent while sizing the brass your run-outs will improve (Assuming you have a good set of dies).

I noticed with a couple of new reloaders that I was helping slammed the brass in and out of the sizing die. Literally in and out within a second. This does not allow the brass to normalize.

When I size my brass I run them up into the die slow (Feel the case going into the die). Then when I am fully stroked out I count to 4 or 5 seconds then extract the brass from the die.

Doing this you should see improvement in your run-outs. Be consistent in what you decide to do.

I also noticed them thumping the handled when seating too. Slow and smooth (Consistent).

Rushing either process will induce bad things.

Terry
 
Re: Concentricity

This all sounds like pretty good advice. I was in a little of a hurry while i was loading, not really slamming anything, but trying to get through it. Next time I will have all fire formed brass and I will take my time. I will post back up what my results are next time. Thanks again for the advice, this all helps me out.

CJG
 
Re: Concentricity

The runout will get better after firing the brass and even better after firing it again. All my new brass has runout usually around .001-.005 with Lapua brass and .001-.008 with Winchester brass at first but that is cut in half usually after 1 firing and again reduced after the second firing. I got all worried about runout at one point and finally realized that it did not affect my group size as much as I thought. Some of my best groups have been shot with new brass. I believe the brass expands so rapidly @ ignition that runout is corrected to your chamber (hopefully a straight chamber) before bullet release, but I may be wrong.
 
Re: Concentricity

If you shoot on your belly W/ a bipod you wont notice a accuracy diff w/ .003in runout and under. But with the setup you are running you should be keepoing it under.002 across the board. What sizeing die are you using and how neck tension are you running. The runout could be from the brass (especially if you are using a die w/ a expander ball, get a good bushing die) start measuring the cases at the neck and back behund the shoulder to determine where the runout is.
 
Re: Concentricity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rotortuner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK so I finally started loading a bunch of 308.
Lapua brass
175gr sierra
OAL is is about 2.80

I am using a redding competition seater with a forstar press.

I have a necco gage and measuring runout at the ogive, while supportin the case behind the neck and before the case head in the v blocks.

115 rounds, I get 33% that have less than .001 runout and the rest fall mostly in the .001-.003 range with just a hand full in the .0045 as the max. Is this acceptable for the dies and press im using or should I be getting better?

I seated the bullets then rotated the case and seated again, but wasn't paying to much attention at all to how much i was turning them.

CJG</div></div>

You did not address the sizing process, where most of the error is introduced. I assume that it is because the brass is new.

After you fire the brass, re size it with a Lee Collet die. Your concentricity at the bullet ogive will get better.
 
Re: Concentricity

I'm using the redding comp neck sizer die with a 336 bushing and I have the body die if i need it. I shot most of the ammmo yesterday with pretty good results. Shooting steal, so i didnt record groups sizes. This week I am going to go out and shoot 100 yard groups on paper with the different segregated groups of rounds i have and see if I can tell any difference with the varying runouts.

CJ
 
Re: Concentricity

Concentricity has an effect, because bullets that enter the bore crooked have increased the distance from the center of the bore to the center of the bullet mass. The spinning bullet exits the muzzle and is flung radially off aim by Centrifugal force. When this is caused by crooked ammo, and the ammo is randomly inserted in the chamber with respect to neck bend orientation, there is an effect on the group size. That effect on group size is limited by the chamber bending the ammo straighter. The fit of the ammo neck to chamber neck and bullet ogive to throat limit the maximum error on the target.

This is why many shooters find the most accurate load is one that is seated long enough to engage the lands. The lands can help bend the ammo in a straighter direction.

This is partially why shooters find the most accurate barrel for a bullet is minimum amount of twist that will stabilize the bullet. Faster twist throws the bullet further off aim.

When this is caused by a crooked chamber, the bullets are consistently flung in the same direction, having little effect on the group size.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969 enlarged and revised from "The
American Rifleman" with article copyrights from 1950 - 1968


"Gauging Bullet Tilt"

THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.

By A. A. ABBATIELLO

Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let’s center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.

Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-’O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.

SEATING TOOL A FACTOR

The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.



MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION

A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1". </div></div>

What does it all mean?
Get a Lee collet neck die.