Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

[JimGnitecki]

I am confused about the differences in the die sets that Redding offers.

I have benen using a Redding Type S Match set of dies for my 308 semiauto loading. That includes a full length sizing die with chanegable bushing, and a micrometer equipped seating die. I also use a separate Redding decapping die, so as to keep primer residue away from the sizing die.

Now, I have a Sako TRG 42 in 338 Lapua that I want to load for. It appears that Redding offers not only a "Type S" set for 338 Lapua, but also a "Competition" set.

1. What is the difference between the Type S set and the more expensive Competition set?

In addition, although I have been full olength sizing for the LMT MWSE semiauto in 308, I understand that for the 338 lapua TRG I can neck size ONLY at least some of the time, and full length size only when needed. This sounds like a good idea because it woould allow me to work the brass much less so it would last longer, plus the case would be betetr "fitted" to the chamber. Questions:

2. SHOULD I neck size only, except when full length resizing is needed?

3. If you only neck size normally, how often is full length sizing needed?

4. How much difference in case life by going to neck sizing only? With the cost of 338 Lapua cases, this is potentially a good way to help control overall cost.

And finally, for 338 Lapua loading:

5. How large a throat opening does the press need to have? Is it sufficient that it be at least = COAL of about 3.75" (if you place the bullet into the die before inserting case into shellholder), or do you need more clearance?

6. The 338 Lapua case is larger diameter and longer than the 308 case. How much tougher is it to full length size 338 Lapua cases than 308 cases?

7. If using Lapua brand 338 cases, what is the correct bushing size for neck sizing?

Jim G

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Jim, I'm just starting into the .338 LM territory myself. I have the Type S Match Bushing Neck Die Set.

1. If you look at http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/19-type-s-die-chart

The major difference is the Competition set has a micrometer sizing die.

2. From what I've been reading and talking to people, neck sizing tends to be more accurate. Every chamber is going to be slightly different, by sizing the neck only, the the whole case forms to your specific chamber.

3. If you get the same set that I have, a body die comes with it, with this die, you'll only work the body, not the neck. You will need to use this when it gets hard to close the bolt.

4. I've spoken with Rick at Alberta Tactical Rifle Supply, he uses Lapua brass and neck sizes. He tells me that he is on his 36th reload on the same brass without having to anneal.

5. I have and RCBS RC IV? or VI? can't remember... Anyways, my OAL ends up being around 3.770" (I measure from base to ogive at 2.894")

6. As long as they're properly lubed and the die is nice and clean, it's pretty easy, my 7mm Rem Mag can be tougher than the .338LM lol

7. It depends on the thickness of your side wall... What Redding recommends is micing the diameter of your loaded rounds at the neck, then subtracting .001" - .002" (.001" more likely)

Hope this helps!

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Thank-you, SavageLapua! That gives me a great start.

I have also found in an earleir thread that apaprently a number of people running Lapua brand 338 Lapua cases are using a .365" bushing. That seems to make sense, but might be a bit too small. I say this because my 308 Lapua cases are about .0159" neck wall thickness, so if the 338 Lapua case are the same thickness:

.365" minus .0159"x2 = .3332

After neck sizing this gives .3332 minus .338" bullet diameter = .0048 interference before the bullet stretches the neck brass a bit to get in. Two thousandths interference should have gotten the job done. More than that just works the brass more than necessary.

I understand and agree with the Redding recommendation, but of course have no loaded rounds yet that I can measure, that have LAPUA brand cases.

1. What loaded neck OD are YOU running?

2. What loaded neck OD is Rick at Alberta Tactical running? I am particularly interested in his OD as he is running the Lapua brand cases.

Jim G

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

No problem!

Some lots might be different... I'm probably going to be running a .366" bushing. Originally Rick got me to measure the neck wall thickness, .017", he sent a .368" and it was WAY too big. I could seat bullets with my thumb... I then measured a few loaded rounds for a good sample. They all measured in at .367". I should be getting my new bushing in the mail in the next few days. As for Ricks OD, not sure, I'll try to find out for ya.

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Using lapua 338 brass my loaded rounds are .3665 to .3670, I use a .365 TiNi bushing for .0015 - .002 tension.

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

The more expensive set with the competition sizer allows you to control how much sizing happens. The bigger deal with that one is that internally it has a sliding sleeve setup like the comp bullet seater that centers up the case before anything touches the neck. However I have personally never used this die and have always had good results with the regular bushing dies.

Some people like to just neck size. I personally (and lots of people do this as well) bump the shoulder .001 each time. Can use a combination of a neck only die and a body die or a full length sizing die to do this in one step. If I were hunting or in situations where the conditions were harsh I would size it back a little more to make sure I didnt have problems with the brass feeding. I believe you have will ideantical brass life doing this vs neck sizing only. FWIW the tech guys are redding I talk to do the same thing.

Some people have found that the expander ball in the die is a major culprit with neck runout. For that reason they are using a bushing die with no expander ball installed to size to the correct dimension. You can do this if you use one kind of brass or turn your brass to the same thickness. In these cases they will use an expander die to make the inside of the neck perfectly round and then turn off the variances that got pushed to the outside. Many people will turn off about .001 just to clean things up. Probably wont cover the whole neck but will get most of it.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Thanks, SavageLapua! So for sure, .367" is too large a bushing for Lapua cases. BUT, are you using Lapua cases or a different brand (you never mentioned)?

QuiggyB: Your .365" bushing matches what others are doing, despite the theoretical numbers I listed, and you DID say you are using Lapua brand cases. I guess that's where I'll start. I AM surprised though, as that implies the Lapua brass is only maybe .0154".

The calculation looks like this:

(.3665 to .367 OD) minus .338 bullet diameter = .0285" to .029" left NET after seating the buller.

If you have .001" to .002" interference as you say, then the brass thickness at .001" interference must be roughly (.02875 + .001")/2 = .0149"

or

at .002" interference = (.02875 + .002")/2 = .0154"

after seating (i.e. after the case has been forced to stretch to result in the .001" or .002" interference).

This is notably thinner than my 308 Lapua cases, which come in at .0159" neck wall thickness.

That seems surprising to me, as the 338 Lapua round geenrates about twice the energy of the 308, so you'd THINK the case wll thickness might be a little THICKER, not thinner. But, if that is what is the actual situaiton, real life measurements trump theory all the time.

Also, I'm glad to hear too that others besides me don't use an expander ball!

Jim G

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Hey Jim! I did indeed neglect to say which brass I use, didn't I? I use Lapua name brass. I do have 25 Nosler Custom Brass as well, and the measurements of both brass are the same... I see your point about the math, for sure.

Now, I'm still in the learning process myself, about the expander ball, are you taking it out of the die? So you'd be using just a decapping pin then? How would that work for seating bullets?

 

[YAOG]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu


You will find that even with Lapua brass the case thickness will vary slightly and that you will need a range of bushings to ensure the same neck tension. One size up and one size down will likely be enough to cover an acceptable range if you are using a single brand (Lapua) of brass. For folks who load a lot of different brass with many different ages and number of times fired over time will find the need for a wider range of bushings. I'm a dedicated .308Win shooter and I own 7 Redding TiNi bushings which covers all of what I need for the various brass I'm currently using.

HTH!

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SavageLapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, I'm still in the learning process myself, about the expander ball, are you taking it out of the die? So you'd be using just a decapping pin then? How would that work for seating bullets? </div></div>

I completely rmeoved the expander ball. I get awya with this withOUT using a separate die with expandr ball to "repair" any dented necks, simply because my LMT MWSE ejects the cases without damaging them at all, and I "catch" them using the open rifle case set up on the adjacent concrete shooting bench to catch them! Works perfectly.

I also do NOT have the decapping pin in the sizing die. I decap separately FIRST, before tumbling the cases, in order to keep the primer residue out of the sizing die.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You will find that even with Lapua brass the case thickness will vary slightly and that you will need a range of bushings to ensure the same neck tension. One size up and one size down will likely be enough to cover an acceptable range if you are using a single brand (Lapua) of brass. For folks who load a lot of different brass with many different ages and number of times fired over time will find the need for a wider range of bushings. I'm a dedicated .308Win shooter and I own 7 Redding TiNi bushings which covers all of what I need for the various brass I'm currently using.

HTH!
</div></div>

Oh, ouch. Those bushings cost $23 each as I recall.

Jim G

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

$23?!?! I wish... Up here, they're $43...

 

[YAOG]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You will find that even with Lapua brass the case thickness will vary slightly and that you will need a range of bushings to ensure the same neck tension. One size up and one size down will likely be enough to cover an acceptable range if you are using a single brand (Lapua) of brass. For folks who load a lot of different brass with many different ages and number of times fired over time will find the need for a wider range of bushings. I'm a dedicated .308Win shooter and I own 7 Redding TiNi bushings which covers all of what I need for the various brass I'm currently using.

HTH!
</div></div>

Oh, ouch. Those bushings cost $23 each as I recall.

Jim G </div></div>


Well yeah they are $24 or so each but think of all the money I saved loading my own ammo!

O.K. O.K. that line worked on my wife but she's not so good with numbers as I am. LOL

 

[YAOG]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SavageLapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$23?!?! I wish... Up here, they're $43... </div></div>

You want that I should send you some?

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SavageLapua</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$23?!?! I wish... Up here, they're $43... </div></div>

You want that I should send you some? </div></div>

That'd be awesome! When I get my bushing in the mail, I'll let you know.

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimGnitecki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is notably thinner than my 308 Lapua cases, which come in at .0159" neck wall thickness.
</div></div>

I wouldn't say a few ten thousandths is "notable" given the variation in wall thickness is measured in thousandths. I definitely would not stress over measurements at that resolution. Most lapua cases Ive used seem to hover around .015 thickness and I believe that is a good place for them to be.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

It's a full thousandth (.0159 - .0149 = .001"). When you are shooting for .001 or .002 neck tension, that is a huge variance!

Jim G

 

[SavageLapua]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Jim, just thought I'd mention that I got my new bushing from ATRS. I was right about getting a 0.366" bushing... I took the expander out of the die and ran a couple fired cases through... Everything seems to be in order. Now I'm going to see if I can get the old man to build a "Case Master" for me (since he's a millwright and has all the tooling at work to make that sort of item )

 

[dstewart51]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Yep, using the 366 bushing to neck size as well. Sizing down from fired neck OD of .371"-.372" with the 366 bushing gives me a an OD of .365" and an ID of .335" (1x, 2x and 3x fired Lapua brand brass). This gives me about .003" neck tension. No expander.

I posted some more detailed info here,
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...877#Post3046877

By the time I was done I now have every size between 362 and 368. By the way, the TiNi bushings are $20 at Bruno Shooting Supply in Phoenix, shipping was $3.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dstewart51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yep, using the 366 bushing to neck size as well. Sizing down from fired neck OD of .371"-.372" with the 366 bushing gives me a an OD of .365" and an ID of .335" (1x, 2x and 3x fired Lapua brand brass). This gives me about .003" neck tension. No expander.

I posted some more detailed info here,
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...877#Post3046877

By the time I was done I now have every size between 362 and 368. By the way, the TiNi bushings are $20 at Bruno Shooting Supply in Phoenix, shipping was $3. </div></div>

I don't get it: How can a .366" bushing create a .365" OD ??? (finsihed OD is SMALLER than the bushin size???

I can see how the reverse can happen (.365" busing creating a net .366" OD)since the brass can easily spring back .001". But how it could GROW escapes me. Are you SURE they sent you a .366" bushing? Have you measured its actual ID?

Jim G

 

[dstewart51]

Re: Confused about Redding die set variants & 338 Lapu

Jim,

Not exactly sure why, it just did.

This is out of Reddings Bushing Size Tech Tip,
"<span style="font-style: italic">It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010".

Solutions include, increasing bushing diameter to compensate and/or the use of a size button. Reducing the neck diameter in two smaller steps by using an intermediate diameter bushing will also help. More concentric necks will also result using this method, as the case necks are stressed less during sizing. Don't forget to properly chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouths and apply a light coating of lubricant to the case necks before sizing.</span>"

Im resizing from .371"-.372" down to .365" so about 6 to 7 thou. My necks are also lubricated. I did try a two step sizing a few times and indeed the 366 bushing gave me closer to .366" but its too much work and Im not seeing any concentricity problems (typically measure .001" to .002" runout).