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Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

L

LAKsupply

Private
Minuteman
Jul 28, 2009
48
0
44
Wyo
I currently have a Remington 700 Police in .308... it's had a little work and is sitting on a loaded McMillan Baker Special... it's a great shooter, but I'm thinking about trading it/selling it in favor of an AR10 or LR308. I'm thinking that a 24" heavy barrel should get me out there for consistent hits in the 800-1k yard range. Anybody currently using something on the AR10 platform as a long-range shooter? Any thoughts? I'm not an experienced long-range shooter, so I'd really like some FB here.

Current rifle:

Remington700PSS002.jpg
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Why?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

keep what you have and build another rifle,then you will have both
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I'd kind of like to play with an AR10 if it can do something similar to this... something new and I like semi's. If I went with another bolt gun it would be a .300 WinMag anyway...
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

id keep the bolt gun personally. I had an Armalite Super SASS and it was accurate as hell with a 20 inch tube, but my bone stock sps tactical will out shoot the hell out of it and that was before i bedded it, different stock, better scope, rifle basix trigger. AR 10 is going to be more expensive to feed due to it being a semi. Your gains, faster follow ups, higher cap mags, Numerous accessories. Cons some precision ARs can be finnicky with certain match ammo. Bolt gun will be your best bet to get the LR shooting down good.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Buy what you want and make it work. You can make hits at 800-1k(target size depending) with ar10 or lr308 just don't be cheap with want you want.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

So if I did go with an AR10 based rifle, would the semi action and 24" vs bolt and 26" barrel be a huge loss in velocity?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I wouldn't think there would be much loss in velocity. The important thing is accuracy. Military snipers are starting to adopt semis simply because it gives them faster followup shots and they have the budget to make it work. Probably not a bad idea for SWAT teams either in some of our major metroploitan areas. I'd stick with the bolt gun platform for a while if I were you. Do lots of research before committing to it.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

There will be a significant loss in velocity if you handload. Gas guns will show pressure signs before bolt guns because the case is extracted before all of the pressure has dissipated. I can only get 155gr Scenars to the 2750-2800fps range in my 21" AR10. Check out the .308 reloading thread and look at how many guys are running 2900-2950 with 24"-26" bolt guns.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I would stay with the bolt gun until you have tried the long range shooting out with what you have first. With that said I hit steel at 800 yards all the time with my LR-308 18" barrel.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I'd stay with the boltgun myself. Ease of maintenance, simplicity of operation, ability to use heavier charges/bullets without consideration for port pressure, tighter fitting ammo.

I'd go with a DBM mod for your 700 before going with a gasser, if sustained firepower is desired. You can run a bolt fairly fast with some practice.

Bottom line though, you only gotta make you happy. I'd keep the boltgun and save up for the AR10.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Thanks for the replies... the reason I was considering trading off bolt 308 for semi 308 was because I thought the AR was a bit more versatile and I like the platform. The thought was move the bolt gun out of the way for the AR, and then build a .300 or possibly .338 in another bolt gun down the road. Figured if I eventually did that I'd cover the mid-range stuff pretty well in the meantime and then learn to shoot the bigger ones later for the real long shots.

From the replies here I think I'll have to think about keeping the Remy around and learning to shoot it better. So let me ask this... I haven't shot it much past 500-600... I do handload... where is the best place to start for a gameplan to get me shooting this thing to it's potential?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Haha... nevermind... just found the FAQ...
smile.gif
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I have both and I prefer the bolt gun! The AR-10 I have is very accurate, but it's not where my bolt guns are at, and it's a bitch to try and operate in a match environment (esp if you have to use chamber flags). I also find that I blow through ammo much quicker with the AR-10 than I do with my bolt rifles.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LAKsupply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I do handload... where is the best place to start for a gameplan to get me shooting this thing to it's potential?

</div></div>


The default answer would be 175gr Matchkings, and Varget.

My favorite for the 308 is a moly'd 190 Berger VLD and RL15, though I'm presently working through a bunch of 155 Scenar, and they work pretty well too.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Based on your desired shooting, I would take the 700 out as opposed to the AR-10. Unless you have mastered your potential and that of the bolt gun, the 700 platform is the better of the two to get there. The AR-10 with proper mods may be capable of producing similar results but is going to take greater effort.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

You get rid of that bolt gun, and you're gonna regret it. Buy the gas gun, and have both.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Semi's are more fun.Bolt's are easier to shoot.Since you reload try another caliber.Flatter trajectory and less wind drift.

Steve
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Semi's are more fun.Bolt's are easier to shoot.Since you reload try another caliber.Flatter trajectory and less wind drift.

Steve </div></div>

Such as .260 Rem?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Only reason to select a 24 or 26" barrel is to use and extended gas tube and get the ability to use a bit slower powders and have more moderate cycling effect upon your brass.

Might consider the .338 Federal if you are really driven towards LongRange use. Don't know if DPMS still builds the .300SAUM. Armalite used to. You might be able to get the Armalite .338Fed upper in 10T configuration currently from Armalite. They were in stock a few mos ago.

The gas rifle is more adaptable than the bolt. No worries about ammunition, you better load your own. Tailor it to your rifle, check your chamber dimensions with a Case Gauge setup your sizing die to be .006-.008 under what the fired cases measure. Full length Type S neck bushing die for sizing. No criping, seat to mag length, about 2.528" oal; I use 168gr hornadys. If the .338Fed had been around when I bought lots of .308 brass and bullets, would have gone that way. Better Ballistic Coefficiency with the heavier bullets.

Am looking at a 27" 6mm-250 AI hart barreled highpower comp upper as I type this. 6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm will be a better choice. Look at 6mmAR.com and check out the 6mmAR Turbo AI. There is a 1000yd low recoiling performer. AR-15 platform is lighter but still as accurate. 3000fps w/107gr bullet 540BC...

7mm Grendel might really be something, maybe 7mmSPC. If you are going to load your own, may as well go for the gusto. Go with the 15 and you have money for Giesele trigger and many extras. White Oak Precision also makes some nice competition and varmint uppers. May as well work with Quality Guys who pioneered the Precision AR scene. Steve Satern for a Grendel barrel is also worth considering.

My advice, the lighter and more versatile your rifle, the better it will serve you. Think short lightweight scopes, float tube, crisp trigger. I like the Badger Ord Stabilizer handguard; have 4 of them on various rifles. Get Zedikers new and updated Competitive AR and study that book. Maybe you will decide a .223Rem with 6.5twist and single-loading 80 & 90gr match bullets is enough for those longrange scenarios. The mag-length 75/77gr bullets are super tough, will penetrate almost anything and hang together. With 30rds of match .223 and a couple of grab-bags of 80 or 90gr match, you will have your bases covered.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

That 700 in a McMillan stock is worth more than the AR by a considerable margin, no?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I have exactly what you are talking about. It was put together by Accuracy Systems and shoots sub .75 consistantly. It is a great rifle, and we are using them in the field. The newer shooters seem to prefer them, while the older shooters stick to the 700 platform. I like them both, but I would not give up the M700 for one. For the money though the Accuracy Systems guns are a great deal and a great product using the Armalite as its platform.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

First, keep the bolt rifle.

Swamper, good post, that is the same place I am. Got 2 308 semi auto (16" and 24" uppers), pulled the scope off one for the 6mm small format AR that is way more accurate, less recoil and bolt slap, cheaper to shoot, and more like a standard AR. With the wide selection of 6mm bullets it is easy to find one to fit most needs.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be a significant loss in velocity if you handload. Gas guns will show pressure signs before bolt guns because the case is extracted before all of the pressure has dissipated. I can only get 155gr Scenars to the 2750-2800fps range in my 21" AR10. Check out the .308 reloading thread and look at how many guys are running 2900-2950 with 24"-26" bolt guns. </div></div>

Hmmm, maybe a semi shows pressure signs sooner, but I don't think than means you should load hotter for a bolt gun.

Consider factory-loaded ammunition. That stuff is typically loaded right up to maximum safe (SAAMI) pressure. This is driven by free market - if Black Hills' 168gr Match load is substantially slower than Federal's, Black Hills would loose business. And as we all know, these companies intend for that ammunition to be used in both bolt guns and AR15s (they don't offer "uploaded" bolt gun ammunition or "downloaded" AR15 ammunition).

I've never fired an AR10 and bolt gun - with the same barrel length - over a chronograph with common ammunition. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the bolt gun had a slight velocity edge due to its lack of a gas port. In your example, I think the 3"-5" of extra barrel length on the bolt guns explains most of the velocity gain you list.

Again, I don't doubt that semi-autos might show pressure signs sooner than bolt guns. But this just means that you need to adjust the baseline for your assessment of the pressure signs you're seeing for each type of gun - not that you should load hotter for one type or another.

IMHO, the best thing to do is fire a few different factory loads in your rifle and use the spent cases as a guideline. If your handloads <span style="font-style: italic">in that gun</span> show pressure signs beyond what the factory loads did <span style="font-style: italic">in that gun</span>, you need to back off a little.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I would strongly suggest you find a way to fund the AR10 and keep the 700.

But if youd like, i can take that 700 off your hands for you...
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I have both and have shot both on the same outing. In my experience the bolt gun was much easier to use. The bolt gun is more stable, easier to see the impact, more comfortable to shoot. The AR is harder to bench, with the long cycling, much harder to see impacts, less accurate, and less velocity. The only benefit is slightly faster follow ups.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Hey Swamper,

The 6mmAR Turbo 40 degree case will send a 105-107 grain bullet just past 2900 FPS but is capable of sending 95gr Bergers at 3050 FPS.I tried some 115 DTACS and could barely reach 2700 FPS with a very hot load.

If you built a 22 cal version of the Turbo 40 case.I suspect 3200 FPS could be achieved with 80 grainers and possibly 3100 FPS for the 90 grainers.

Steve
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I know there have been a few .22-250 AR-10 uppers built. Not seen one, but am not that wowed for velocity. Yet, a .22Turbo would make a fine varmint round, I guess. Mostly though, the .22wssm and .243wssm are just barrel beaters.

For a .22, I haven't seen anything better than a .223rem w/75gr match bullets.

Am sure the AR-10 may take more tweaking to get dialed-in. But how many bolt shooters ever really explore the precision handload and chamber relationship? A short oal chamber is what really performs in a bolt rifle. I fit a barrel extension to a 10T Lothar-Walther barrel for minimum chamber dimension and it promises to be the best 10 upper I own.

There are guys in England who shoot AR's without the gas system, setting up to be about like an Eliseo tube gun. The upper design of the AR is just better than the two lug traditional mauser action for accuracy.

I see the bolt-rifle as being so specialized a weapon that in event of general purpose application it is like carving a turkey for Thanksgiving with a scalpel. A 17-20# bolt rifle with 5 or 10rd magazine and super-fine scope is incredible to fire from a fixed hide or bench. Yet, for a .308 or even .223rem as an anti-personnel tool, a precision AR weighs less and needs less accurizing.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Thanks for all the input guys... I guess I didn't think about an AR-15 for long range. I know there were some guys hitting at 1k with them at a couple of matches I attended, but I really didn't stop to think about it. Would I be better off building a 6.5 or 6.8 upper for one of my current AR's? Are those rounds effective out to 1k?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

LAKsupply,

6.8's are good for short to medium range.That's what it was designed for.The bullets are a little lower on the BC.

With the 6.5 on the other hand the bullets BC's are pretty high .5+BC for 120-130 grain bullets.They reach out to 1000 yards OK.A little slowish at 2650 FPS

Or if you want a really kick ass rifle then buy I.D.F.A's 6mm ART Turbo 40.That's a great value and is the cats meow for long range in an AR-15.105's with .532 BC at 2900 FPS.

Steve
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Agree with Steve. 6mmAR Turbo is twtg for semi-auto 1,000yd. Might want to try JLK bullets as well as Bergers. Then there are the 115gr DTAK bullets.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I've never even heard of the 6mm Turbo... lol... and I have multiple AR's with enough spare parts laying around to build a couple more. When was the 6mm introduced? Anybody here have any hands-on time with it?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

LAKsupply,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I am a similar situation as yourself. Been doing some research on the AR 10 and bolt rifles and as of this writing have decided to do more research on this 6mmAR Turbo cartridge. Otherwise I am going to go with an AR 10 for general duty and a .338LM rifle at a later date. I will follow this thread with interest. Thanks again.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

Wow... that's an impressive little round. So it appears that it's based on the 6.5 brass, AND you don't have to turn the case? Anybody here loading this round?
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I've got a 700P, a 700VSSF and an LR-308 and love them all. The LR will outshoot both Remys but that's just the ones I have.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned (at least when I scanned the posts) was the lead time for LR-308s. Unless you find one for sale (gunbroker??), you're looking at enough time to save up and add to your collection rather than sacrificing something you'll probably regret getting rid of in a few years.

The 24" barrel doesn't really give up any velocity and the 1:10" prefers 175gr SMKs in my DPMS vs 168s in my other .308s that have a 1:12.

YMMV
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: linebaugh500</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be a significant loss in velocity if you handload. Gas guns will show pressure signs before bolt guns because the case is extracted before all of the pressure has dissipated. I can only get 155gr Scenars to the 2750-2800fps range in my 21" AR10. Check out the .308 reloading thread and look at how many guys are running 2900-2950 with 24"-26" bolt guns. </div></div>

Hmmm, maybe a semi shows pressure signs sooner, but I don't think than means you should load hotter for a bolt gun.

Consider factory-loaded ammunition. That stuff is typically loaded right up to maximum safe (SAAMI) pressure. This is driven by free market - if Black Hills' 168gr Match load is substantially slower than Federal's, Black Hills would loose business. And as we all know, these companies intend for that ammunition to be used in both bolt guns and AR15s (they don't offer "uploaded" bolt gun ammunition or "downloaded" AR15 ammunition).

I've never fired an AR10 and bolt gun - with the same barrel length - over a chronograph with common ammunition. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the bolt gun had a slight velocity edge due to its lack of a gas port. In your example, I think the 3"-5" of extra barrel length on the bolt guns explains most of the velocity gain you list.

Again, I don't doubt that semi-autos might show pressure signs sooner than bolt guns. But this just means that you need to adjust the baseline for your assessment of the pressure signs you're seeing for each type of gun - not that you should load hotter for one type or another.

IMHO, the best thing to do is fire a few different factory loads in your rifle and use the spent cases as a guideline. If your handloads <span style="font-style: italic">in that gun</span> show pressure signs beyond what the factory loads did <span style="font-style: italic">in that gun</span>, you need to back off a little. </div></div>

46.5gr of Varget under 155gr Scenars in Winchester brass is about the most I've been able to load in my AR10. There are guys running 47.8gr with the same bullets and brass through bolt guns, in my book that is pretty big difference.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

LAKsupply, I'm not loading the 6mm turbo but a wildcat 6mm based on 6.5 Grendal that is similar.
Very easy to fire form cases, so far have shot 105 Amax, 108 Berger, 105 Lapua and 107 SMK. Mine likes the 105 Amax best with consistent 1/2 moa groups. Barrel is 22" Krieger 7.5 twist that is contoured so it doesn't weigh much more than a stock 20" .223 upper. 29.3 gr. of RL-15 yields 2750 fps with the 105's. I just put the upper together this month so still have some load development to do. Runs great, I'm really impressed with the performance of this round. Makes a small format AR into a real rifle.
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

I've got about 1000 rounds through mine.I did a range report on it in the "Range report & exterior ballistics" forum here on the hide entitled 6mm AR turbo 40D+ more.

Steve
 
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

From what I've been able to gather this round is about the same poop as a .243?
 
Falar said:
Re: Considering trading in 700 for AR10... thoughts?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: linebaugh500</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be a significant loss in velocity if you handload. Gas guns will show pressure signs before bolt guns because the case is extracted before all of the pressure has dissipated. I can only get 155gr Scenars to the 2750-2800fps range in my 21" AR10. Check out the .308 reloading thread and look at how many guys are running 2900-2950 with 24"-26" bolt guns. </div></div>

Hmmm, maybe a semi shows pressure signs sooner, but I don't think than means you should load hotter for a bolt gun.

Consider factory-loaded ammunition. That stuff is typically loaded right up to maximum safe (SAAMI) pressure. This is driven by free market - if Black Hills' 168gr Match load is substantially slower than Federal's, Black Hills would loose business. And as we all know, these companies intend for that ammunition to be used in both bolt guns and AR15s (they don't offer "uploaded" bolt gun ammunition or "downloaded" AR15 ammunition).

I've never fired an AR10 and bolt gun - with the same barrel length - over a chronograph with common ammunition. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the bolt gun had a slight velocity edge due to its lack of a gas port. In your example, I think the 3"-5" of extra barrel length on the bolt guns explains most of the velocity gain you list.

Again, I don't doubt that semi-autos might show pressure signs sooner than bolt guns. But this just means that you need to adjust the baseline for your assessment of the pressure signs you're seeing for each type of gun - not that you should load hotter for one type or another.

IMHO, the best thing to do is fire a few different factory loads in your rifle and use the spent cases as a guideline. If your handloads <span style="font-style: italic">in that gun</span> show pressure signs beyond what the factory loads did <span style="font-style: italic">in that gun</span>, you need to back off a little. </div></div>

46.5gr of Varget under 155gr Scenars in Winchester brass is about the most I've been able to load in my AR10. There are guys running 47.8gr with the same bullets and brass through bolt guns, in my book that is pretty big difference.
Click to expand...


I've gotten really bright ejector swipes with 155gr ELDm bullets over 45.4gr of varget in a once fired LC14 head stamp. In my 18in 308 AR10.

I'm also struggling to get that bullet to group with a 1:10 twist
 
I love my Aero M5 with 22" Criterion barrel in 6.5 Creed. It easily hits at 800 yards and once you have it dialled in you can just yank away on the trigger and keep hitting... Very little recoil and soooo easy to shoot.
 
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