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Custom FAL

jrl5678

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 13, 2010
28
0
53
TX, Harris
I am thinking about having a custom FAL bult up from a reciever. I would get Ed Vandenburg to do the work. I am interested if people think a FAL can be built to be .5 MOA gun? What barrel/twist length for a 600 yd plus gun?
This is a gun for punching paper or making gongs ring at 600 yds +.
 
Re: Custom FAL

It will be very difficult to get a 0.5 MOA firearm on an FAL platform. The bolt and carrier design is based on a tilting bolt design with a single rear lug for locking.

This is not a precision platform.

Much as I love them, own them and prefer them to pretty much every other 308 battle rifle out there I would go with a AR type platform with a front locking rotary bolt every time if I needed a precision platform.

The FAL is robust as hell, great in a fight but just isn't built for this.
 
Re: Custom FAL

slowworm is correct about accuracy. However you won't see the AR .308s do this:

2z89afl.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold">Link: </span>
http://www.dsarms.com/pdf/Nine%20Hour10.000.pdf
 
Re: Custom FAL

How good can a FAL be? I am not a sub MOA shooter yet any way. I sort of have a crush on the FAL. Longer barrell better trigger free float tube?
 
Re: Custom FAL

I wrote this years ago in another (FalFiles) forum, project gun was my second FAL then, Austrian STG-58. I quote as it was, did some typo corrections and added mods I forgot to mention then:

_____________________________

Finally got some time to try STG58 with new Lothar Walther barrel.
Figured that 1,5MOA would be realistic group size to except, but 185 Scenars shot 1MOA with 10 shots.
Best 5-shot was (in pic) with 168 Scenars, but after 10 shots group opened to 1.1 - 1.2MOA.
Very happy with it anyway. All bullets with molybdenum jacket.

Suppressor is BR-Tuote Reflex T8, brass Lapua, Federal 210 primers. VV powders.
COL to maximum FAL metric magazine. Harris BRM-S, Scope S&B PMII 3-12x56.
Also tried Lapua 123gr FMJ Trainers, +2MOA. Lapua 170gr D46 same thing.
Plan is to test 10g Scenars as well, and other 168gr Scenar loads. Had some (DIY trigger mods) trigger problems during test those lighter Scenars, didnt get best out of it.

Stick
stgsivupenitn9.jpg


168 Scenar, 5shots, 100m.
1085gsce5shotpieniua7.jpg


185 Scenar, 10shots, 100m.
12gsce10shotpienixy4.jpg


There are stories about accuracy problems when FAL is fed from mag. Decided to shoot all tests mag-fed, way I will shoot rifle anyway. Also, gas port was open whole time.

Link below explains lot:
Handguard is DIY, 3mm thick aluminum. Sandblasted and anodized black.
Guard is attached to big "nut" which actually supports upper receiver too: Barrel thread is extended outside upper, and that nut is tightened against upper. Dont know how much it helps, but it gives some additional support/stiffness anyway. Bit like in AR:s, but nut is completely outside receiver.

Chamber is standard 308, except 168 Scenar (with max magazine COL) gives very light groove touch.
Took calculated risk with headspace: Even when chamber is empty, when bolt is closed, endplay is practically zero. Wasn't sure if it will give problems or not, but seems to cycle normally. But its tight, if bolt isn't released from way back, bolt wont close..still cycles just fine, even when rifle is pretty hot after few mags.
Not much room for sand there tho.

Also, tried to eliminate all play between upper and lower: I made thick washer to replace missing (laws here) safety sear.
When takedown bolt is tightened, upper/lower can not be tilted too easily.
Casted some hot-glue under upper locking link too for same reason: to prevent upper/lower (sideways) movement between shots.
Cut about 2/3 off from gas tube, wanted to minimize barrel twist. I think that all late-model STG:s used shorter tube anyway.

Drilled hole through rear iron sight pedestal and threaded it. Its for metric Allen head bolt there, works as a back latch for a second lockup point for the rear of the upper additional support. Or that is purpose anyway.
Dust cover is DSA glued to upper with Loctite bearing glue.

Did trigger job with diamond file, and replaced trigger spring pin with stainless threaded 4mm dia. TIG-welding rod. With adjustable nut in rod, got rid of loooong over-travel.

Some modification/project pics here:
http://jarno.fotopic.net/c1135988.html

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunTech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JL, did you use an Israeli HB gas block? Great shooting FAL. </div></div>

Plan was to make custom for thicker barrel, but decided to risk and use thinner muzzle end after block.
Didn't have time to find Israeli, and gunsmith was too busy to make one. So, block is therefore standard STG58.
Luckily, barrel is good and POI doesn't seem to shift almost at all when rifle is hot.
But barrel it pretty thick from receiver to gasblock. Its fluted, also under suppressor.

P.S.
Otherwise rifle is original, just as plan was to keep whole stick when I bought it....
whistle.gif
blush.gif
 
Re: Custom FAL

Shankster; cool article, I'd like to see the M14 fans try that.

JL; great build, I'd like to see more precision FAL attempts. We all know they aren't known for accuracy and the pivoting bolt is not supposed to be capable of precision but I think more can be done. Do you have any future mods in mind, phase II maybe?
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shankster; cool article, I'd like to see the M14 fans try that.

JL; great build, I'd like to see more precision FAL attempts. We all know they aren't known for accuracy and the pivoting bolt is not supposed to be capable of precision but I think more can be done. Do you have any future mods in mind, phase II maybe? </div></div>

Well, at the moment I dont own any FALs- and I´m shamed because of that. Missing "right arm", you know.
What I was going to do at the first place, was to add stiffness to upper as much as possible. TIG-welding support rails is one (tricky) possibility, or with custom made steel dust cover permanently welded on upper. I'm sure it would have helped, just dont know how much.
 
Re: Custom FAL

I have to admit I never really thought of the fal as a precision rifle but I see the appeal and apparently it can be done effectively. I think this would be a great platform for an SBR type weapon
whistle.gif
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skidshot505</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to admit I never really thought of the fal as a precision rifle but I see the appeal and apparently it can be done effectively. I think this would be a great platform for an SBR type weapon
whistle.gif
</div></div>

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/01/29/ds-arms-new-fal-pistol-and-sbr/
ds_arns_pistol_and_sbr-tfb-tm.jpg


These guys are the only FAL manufacturers that have the original STeyr blueprint and have improved on that manufacturing: http://www.dsarms.com

http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/

 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KClark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shankster; cool article, I'd like to see the M14 fans try that.

JL; great build, I'd like to see more precision FAL attempts. We all know they aren't known for accuracy and the pivoting bolt is not supposed to be capable of precision but I think more can be done. Do you have any future mods in mind, phase II maybe? </div></div>

Well, at the moment I dont own any FALs- and I´m shamed because of that. Missing "right arm", you know.
What I was going to do at the first place, was to add stiffness to upper as much as possible. TIG-welding support rails is one (tricky) possibility, or with custom made steel dust cover permanently welded on upper. I'm sure it would have helped, just dont know how much. </div></div>

JL,

Give DSA a call as they did have a receiver on gunbroker (sometime ago I might add) that was built like this, well I should say over built
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is are the options for trigger? single, two stage? </div></div>

Dont know about aftermarket triggers, but FAL original trigger is easy to modify. Mine was 2-stage, around 2-2½lbs pull. Not BR level, but easily good enough for shooting good groups. After some fine-tuning and few adjustments at range, feeling was that better trigger wouldn't tighten groups at all.
In my books trigger is good enough at that point.

Robert,
Since I live in Europe, purchasing receiver from USA is really not an option, unfortunately. Just too much damn paperwork. DSA dust covers were best ones already years ago. I'm sure rifles/parts are in same level what comes to design and quality.
 
Re: Custom FAL

I still remember when JL was selling his FAL. I still kick my self for not buying it.

I was looking for rifle back then and had a license for a boltgun not for semiauto. It still looks good and i can still remember how much you did ask for it.
 
Re: Custom FAL

Built one once that I got to group around 1" at 100 routinely. Nice gun, but just like the AR10 better. Biggest challenge with the platform is that nearly all the scope mounts torque the receiver which must be accounted for and corrected. Free float hand guard helps (DSA sells them). Trigger job by Bill Springfield does wonders too.
6297.jpg

 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is are the options for trigger? single, two stage? </div></div>

Metric FAL Trigger
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JL what pistol grip is that and do they make one for AR's </div></div>

Lots of people carry that grip, but here is one,
Link
 
Re: Custom FAL

I've got an FAL I'm playing around to see what it'll do. It has shot wonderful groups, then not... so somewhat frustrating but it's a project so no biggie.

For a time it was shooting typewriter groups left to right, think I got to the bottom of that (maybe).

There is some vertical dispersion presently, I need to get a custom pivot pin made to see if that'll tighten it up.

I'm pretty suspect of the rifle moving around on the pivot pin, so next up would be to tighten up the takedown catch and then maybe up the spring tension on the catch.
 
Re: Custom FAL

The problem I had with FAL's was the point of impact shift when I changed anything about the way the gun was rested or held.
My last DSA would come close to 1" groups but they were never in the same place.
Shooting from a rest on the bench, from offhand, sitting, kneeling or prone all caused POI shifts and using a sling was out.
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: akjaeger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem I had with FAL's was the point of impact shift when I changed anything about the way the gun was rested or held.
My last DSA would come close to 1" groups but they were never in the same place.
Shooting from a rest on the bench, from offhand, sitting, kneeling or prone all caused POI shifts and using a sling was out. </div></div>
Yeah, noticed about same thing with both of mine when they were in original shape. Freefloat handguard is update #1 for FALs.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JL what pistol grip is that and do they make one for AR's </div></div>
It came with PSG-1 kit, with stock. You can see stock in pic link in my original post.
Problem was that stock was damn heavy fiberglass part and I went back to STG-58 original.
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I am interested if people think a FAL can be built to be .5 MOA gun?...
</div></div>

Answer: No. 1 MOA? No - not reliably. 1.5 MOA - some of them. 2 MOA - all the time if it has a good barrel and decent 'lock up'.

I have a bunch of FALs. StG kits, Imbel kits, DSA guns, homebuilds, factory builds, custom builds, etc. ARS built a heavy barrel w/ free-float tube and PRS stock - tight headspace, etc. 1.0MOA at best, and 1.5 was more like it. No handloads, just FCC GMM 168s and 175s.
 
Re: Custom FAL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brunop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrl5678</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I am interested if people think a FAL can be built to be .5 MOA gun?...
</div></div>

Answer: No. 1 MOA? No - not reliably. 1.5 MOA - some of them. 2 MOA - all the time if it has a good barrel and decent 'lock up'.

I have a bunch of FALs. StG kits, Imbel kits, DSA guns, homebuilds, factory builds, custom builds, etc. ARS built a heavy barrel w/ free-float tube and PRS stock - tight headspace, etc. 1.0MOA at best, and 1.5 was more like it. No handloads, just FCC GMM 168s and 175s.</div></div>

According to my (limited) experience, I dare to disagree.

I´d believe FAL can be built to solid 0.5MOA rifle, but as result it would be very heavy and potentially unreliable setup.

To achieve 1MOA mark, all need to do is to use highest quality barrel, free floater HG with additional upper support or "external barrel nut", and with some mods get completely rid of upper-lower gap/play.

With my own rifle, I was able to shoot 0.3MOA 5/shot/100meters group with very first test loads.
In same first trip, 10-shot group was 1MOA, and 9 of those shots were under 0.8MOA or so group. Not too shabby, I had only 5 different bullet/powder variations with me in first range trip and results were still very good.

So, would say it is possible- but it still doesn't mean it makes sense to build FAL like that- same or better result can be achieved with AR10 -system with less money and effort.
 
Re: Custom FAL

I built 6 FALs in the 1990s; L1A1 inch patter, heavy barreled Australasian, and STG58.

I shot a lot of groups that were 5" or 6" with careful handloads made with 168 gr MK bullets.
Other guys showed me singular FAL groups that got down to 1.5".

Meanwhile I had a couple light weight AR15s with sloppy NATO chambers that would shoot 1.1" groups.

At this time I am no longer trying to get good groups with the following rifles:
FAL
SKS
AK
Garrand

I know it can be done, small groups are just so much easier with:
Bolt action
AR15
Ruger #1
10/22